How to Deal With a Controlling Spouse

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That's focusonthefamily.com slash careers. He's stifling me. I, I can't live this way anymore.

No matter what I do, it's never good enough for her. He's a loving husband and a good dad. Well, as long as we do everything his way. Those comments reflect a really significant problem in marriages today, when a husband or wife is controlling their spouse in unhealthy ways. Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we're gonna be examining the problems of too much control in marriage and how couples can find better, more godly ways to support each other and interact with each other. Thanks for joining us today.

I'm John Fuller. John, I'm sure people hear about this topic and they immediately think of that stereotype, you know, the loud, abusive husband who's a steamroller in his marriage, maybe always angry, always barking orders, certainly thinking the world revolves around him. And if you're saying, wow, that's cutting pretty close to home, I think today's program will be for you.

And to be honest, there's some truth to that. Some men will intimidate their wives through anger or abuse, both verbally and physically. And if that's your spouse, I want to urge you to get to a safe place. We're talking about nonviolent control today, not where there's abuse in the relationship and in a physical form. And we've got to make sure that you hear me clearly, that if you're in that situation, get help, call focus.

We'll get you pointed in a direction you can go. But today, it'll be the hope of your marriage in the future being better than it is today when your husband is controlling, angry, manipulative. Yeah, and sometimes it's kind of subtle in the way it plays out, but it's felt and the spouse feels frustrated and powerless and kind of alone in the marriage.

So as you clarified, Jim, this is not abuse in the traditional sense. It might be you're married to a perfectionist who has to have things a certain way, and there's a lot of anxiety in that kind of a home, and that's what we'll be addressing today. That's exactly right, and we have two great folks joining us who've been here before, Dr. Ron Welch and his wife, Jan. Ron is a clinical psychologist who also serves as a professor at Denver Seminary, and Jan is a special needs teacher and tutor. Ron and Jan, let me say welcome back to Focus on the Family. Thank you, it's great to be here. You've written this great book, The Controlling Husband.

It's a hard subject though. I know we're going to get into your background, and I appreciate the vulnerability in which you approach this subject because it's to help people. Let me ask you, for the men listening or the wives who are married to men like you were and that controlling narcissistic temperament, what was going on in your head? I mean, was this a place that you felt through control you could feel better about yourself?

I mean, I'm not even sure how to ask that question. What were you feeling being controlling? Trying my best to not be out of control, if that makes sense. Because you feared it or what? Because I grew up in a family where, I mean, my mom, God bless her, she was a wonderful woman, but the glass wasn't just half full, it was draining rapidly, and you could see the bad things coming around the corner, and she taught me to prepare for those. So I became very anxious, very nervous, and the control allowed me to try to prevent bad things from happening. Now you got to understand at this point I wasn't trusting other people, I didn't trust God, I needed to make sure things were okay. And so in my marriage, in my relationships, in my work, early in my life I was working in the federal prison system, so I was aware of what dominant males look like, and I wasn't that guy, I wasn't the guy who enjoyed hurting women.

I never have been, and I've never hurt Jan physically in any way. But man, I wanted to have things go the way I wanted them to go, because I was scared to death of what would happen if I didn't have control. Right, that's really fascinating, because when you look at the culture today, and if what I'm hearing you say is fear of having things in order the way you wanted them drove you to that kind of compulsive behavior, controlling behavior. When you look at the amount of fear in the culture today, wow, how many people are moving in that direction out of a protection modality to want to or need to control their environment? And how many areas, how many areas of your life can you not control?

Your boss is going to tell you what to do, the government or the laws and the restrictions in certain areas will tell you what to do. The pandemic. COVID, it's like go here, wear a mask here, do that, and then suddenly you're in this relationship where it's like, oh, she's scared of me and she'll do what I say, and then it's easier, and then suddenly that selfish internal pride kicks in, and maybe some people listening don't quite understand that or that doesn't feel like who they are, but there's a lot of ways people control. Mine was manipulation and intimidation.

What did that look like, just so we can get a picture of it? So here's the kind of situation, when I would ask her what she wanted for dinner, I wasn't really asking her what she wanted for dinner, I wanted to start a conversation about barbecue so that I could help her understand why barbecue was the right thing to have for dinner. That sounds pretty manipulative, right? It sounds exhausting. It is, and I'm sure it was just terribly frustrating knowing, she knew what I was doing, but her story is that she was okay with that and went along with it. That sounds pretty simplistic, though.

Can I interject in that, though? If I chose what I wanted, it would be miserable, because you would go there and your partner would be like, this service is horrible, but this food is just, so you start learning. If I have a choice, I don't really have a choice.

So it disappoints him. Well, it makes it awful for you, because you chose this place and they're complaining the whole time. So why would you put yourself through that again? So that's guilt. I mean, they start loading the guilt. Why did you pick this place?

The service is terrible, the food is terrible. So you learn after the first time, I'm not going to choose, because if I choose wrong, then I'm gonna... Yeah. Jan, I do want to come back to your romance, your meeting, Ron, and it was a whirlwind experience. I mean, in some ways, were there red flags or did you just blow by them?

Describe your courtship and how long it lasted. Well, within the first four days, we were looking at reading rings on, I think, the fifth day. That's pretty fast. That's pretty fast. Did anybody in your sphere say, Jan, you may want to slow this down a little bit?

Not really, because my family was in Texas and we didn't have cell phones and those kind of communicative things, but we were in a class at DU and we did a project together. Next thing I know, we were going out and by the time we came back to that once a week class, we were engaged. Yeah, so that was fast. That was very fast.

To be fair, this is an example of one of those warning signs. She had been flirting with me during the class, so I said, well, I need to get those points back. I was taking down points while she was flirting, and I said, you know, if we go out, that'll get the points back. But I went out to the hallway and asked her for a quarter, and she's like, why do you need a quarter?

We still had quarters and phones back then. And I said, well, I got to call somebody. If I was gonna go out with her on Thursday, I had to move the girl that I already had to another day, so I was trying to call that girl to move that girl. With her quarter. With her there. So I don't look real good in that kind of story, but that would be a red flag to say, wait a second, you know. And she looked up at me because I was gonna go to a movie with the other girl. The line was busy.

I never reached her. Until we sat down, and I was asking, who are you calling? And it was Tuesday, so we had dollar night back then. And he told me, and I was like, I thought he was a nice guy. And then I look up and I go, I like movies. And we've never been apart. Oh my goodness.

I mean, yeah. But you stepped into the fast lane in that relationship. Now, the flip side to that that isn't the good part is that I was so anxious to get married because I knew if she got to know me, there was no chance of her marrying me.

And I say that with all honesty. I just, I knew as the longer it took, she was gonna see how poor a husband choice I was, and she wouldn't want me. And so I, I wish there was a different story to that, but I was just so insecure.

Wow. And we're gonna continue your story, obviously. I do want to get to some of the concepts in the book, and we'll pick up, you know, kind of where you went as a couple. But you, Ron, describe in your book, The Controlling Husband, how men tend to be like wolves. Speak to that.

I mean, obviously there's things in nature that we can identify with, but what were you getting at? Well, we're alphas, right? It's there's from the day one, it's in T-ball, we have competitive teams and people are being like drafted at age 10 in baseball teams, you know, and, and you have violent, strong, aggressive physical behavior leads you to be the best player in the team or whatever. In work environments, it's the person who takes the initiative and does well that gets rewarded with the promotions. In church organizations, if you're active and you're out there and you're getting things done, then you're seen as a, as a godly man who's moving things forward. But that's the exact opposite of the kind of selfless, other focused man God calls us to be.

And so the wolf is the idea that you're gonna try to be in charge and in control because that's what society teaches you you need to be. Unfortunately, I don't think our societal structures are bringing men up very well and honestly I'm not sure in many ways that the church is not participating in some of those structures. Yeah, we want to explore those things, but also you do talk about this idea that some women can also dominate in control and I want to make sure that people hear that. We're not man-bashing.

The point is, here's the point, there's no bashing of anything. It's just the idea of what is crippling you in your marriage. That's the concept here. How can you do better? If you claim Christ as your Savior, we must do better and we've got to grow every day. And that's one area, reading your book, I'm so proud of the two of you.

You didn't give up on your marriage, you kept fighting even though it took years. I just think we speak to the idea that some women too can be those manipulators, those controllers, it's not a one gender only area. Sure, it's personality style, right? I mean, all of us have different ways that we gain control. Some people do it passively, some people do it very in the front door, kind of knock down the front door, but there's a number of ways people can control. And in some cases, in my practice over the years, I've seen every imaginable type of control from people withholding sexual interactions to people refusing to talk, giving the silent treatment. There's lots of ways that you can be the dominant partner regardless of what gender you are. Let me ask this though, as a clarifying point, are there some things that you should control for good reasons and godly reasons? I mean, I would think that you just can't be a mat that people walk on. You know, there's that whole learned helplessness concept.

Jan and I talk about this a lot where I've tried rocking the boat and it's not working. So in the areas where you feel it's part of the principle and character of who you are, those areas you should control. If you want to be a provider in the household as a man, then you should work your tail off at work and provide and do a really good job as God expects you to do.

But if that's gonna mean you're working 80 hours and you're not home for your family and you're never around and when you are, your attitude and your countenance is mean and frustrated and tired, then man, you got to look yourself in the mirror and say, is this job worth it? The way I am, that's not okay. When you're in a controlling relationship, it starts off very slowly. As it moves on, you're kind of used to it and then you get smaller and smaller and it's just, oh okay, this is the way my life is gonna go. It's not, you know, banging you on the head and then taking control like a caveman. But in our relationship, it was gradually, like giving up friends, isolation. Those are some of the earlier signs, I think, to be aware of. Did you become that doormat that Jim was talking about? Pretty much, yeah. I mean, it was more fear as well because if I didn't do something the right way, you know, he'd get upset and I didn't want him to get upset.

So you try and do everything you can so he doesn't get upset. Jen, how long was that struggle though? How many years did you live? We disagree. Mine is longer than his. We're gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.

What's your recollection? I would say 16. 16 years?

If not a few years more. Alright, so I need to ask that question that some women who might be living with that kind of husband is saying right now, they're maybe even contemplating divorcing. And they're saying to you, I can't believe it, Jen.

Why would you do that for 16 years? Because they're not always that way. There's so many wonderful great qualities. So glimpses of hope. Yes, that was my kind of motto. If you had to say anything, hope and faith were my motto. I really believe God put us in this relationship for a reason and maybe it wasn't perfect now, but my kids were happy. I'm from a divorced family.

That was not an option and I would have, I mean I was unhappy for a really long time, but as long as those people around me were happy, I was willing to, I don't want to say sacrifice, but I was okay with that. Is there something there, Ron, and what I mean is clinically when you have a woman who's willing to absorb a lot. I mean spiritually it's angelic. I mean you're taking all of this, but is there a line where a person needs to advocate for themselves and and not just roll over hoping that you might send a morsel her way? Yeah, this is, it's hard to hear her talk because when I think about the number of years that I put her through that, it's my largest regret of anything in my life, but the reality is that she was used to that from some pretty controlling, strong father figure images and interactions. And from my perspective as a therapist, I look at that and I say there is going to be a point where you may be the last person to see it because it feels so familiar and even if it's not healthy, it feels kind of like what you know.

That's to your conditioning point a moment ago. It is and so I think that's where if I had been living my life the way God called me to be, I would be that partner that's trying to help bring her closer to God and build her up and I would have been saying, oh this is not okay, look at how she's feeling, look how miserable she is. I wasn't mature enough and I was still very, very unable to deal with my own needs, let alone take care of her. Hmm, well if we're talking about something that's cutting close to home, then please know that Focus on the Family is here to help. We have caring Christian counselors. We'd be very happy to set up a time for you to have a consultation with them.

Our number is 800-AFAMILY or click the link in the episode notes for more details. Ron, I'm sure some people are still struggling to understand, you know, what are the descriptors for me because you don't know you're doing it necessarily. You feel comfortable controlling because it's reducing the fear level in you. What were some of those indicators again that really began, you begin to notice what was true and what was false? I think one of the best indicators is how are decisions made. When something comes up in a discussion, who wins? Is it a win-lose situation or do you really try to find door number three and come up with an awesome compromise or is it, yeah I need to prove my point. And anytime a guy or even a woman, whoever is controlling in the relationship, feels like I'm trying to win the battle, boy you got to check yourself because that's a huge warning sign. Another is if the partner comes away from the conversation less than or belittled or depressed or sad, you got to look at yourself and say, okay so the sum total of that conversation was my wife feels like I don't love her. Well that didn't work.

It also, you know, some of these signals can come up in really different ways. There was a humorous story in your book where you talked about moving to Colorado and I think your son who was really young at the time, three or so, you had, which I actually thought what a brilliant system, you had all your moving boxes and you put stick colored stickers for each room, like kitchen, bedroom, living room. By the way, way to go, I think that's great. But your three-year-old son had a different plan for that, right? What happened? Yes, it was hilarious. We, he actually had a two system, so we had a double code. It was a double code. And so my three-year-old was following him and I was watching and he was taking, he put him on, he'd take him off. He'd put him on himself, he'd put on another box. And Ron didn't know he was taking him off? No idea.

He did the whole house. And then he came back through and he was like, why is this color? It's the wrong color. And Brevin comes around the corner, dot daddy? Would you like another dot? Brevin. That's a great name too, by the way, Brevin.

Britain and Brevin. But that is also a subtle way to see where you're at and what's happening in your life. Think of the opportunity to be a joyful participant in this wonderful family experience. How did you respond to him? I was a jerk. I was angry and I was intense and I was mad at Jan for laughing.

Of course, at that point she was so far into hilarity she couldn't stop. But I just, I look back on that and I think, and this was not a single episode. This is the kind of way I reacted because it threatened my control. And that's just sad in retrospect.

Well yeah, but these are the signals that need to wake us up to these triggers that are going on. Jan, when you were growing up you had an experience. I think your parents gave you a doll. Oh yes. To replace another doll.

Yes. Tell us about it. I had a Raggedy Andy and it was a musical one where you can slide him on your feet and dance with him. And so for my sixth or something birthday I got a bigger Raggedy Andy and unfortunately they didn't tell me they were taking the other one and giving it to family.

Which is fine now but at that age you didn't want that. Well in fact you looked around to introduce the two of them. Yes, and he was gone and which is your best friend when I was a child. And eventually I did find it in my father's closet and woke my mother up and she said no we're giving them away. So she let me have one more last dance with him. And as a five to six year old I still remember that.

Yeah. And so I kind of learned really young that sometimes things change and you don't have control. Jan, let me dig in a bit on your side of the story and I want to hear the emotion of what you were going through, the rationalization. Help us better understand that because I just want to know your heart better that way. You have such tenderness.

Thank you. And you're you know you're wanting and this is so true of women that I have found. Certainly my wife is this person. They're so concerned about everybody around them that they're willing to sacrifice themselves.

They're willing to sacrifice their joy, their happiness for others because they have this innate desire to do so. I think it's you know that mothering instinct right? I totally agree.

I'll probably get crit on that. Yeah probably. Yeah. So how were you managing all that emotion? Am I in a good place because I'm giving of myself? Lord are you happy with me because I'm acting in a selfless way? There's a lot of spiritual messiness in this.

I think so as well. I've had kind of a challenging relationship with God because I didn't feel worthy and so why would God love me when I don't feel like I'm lovable? And so I think part of that was by trying to give so much that maybe I would become something lovable and when you're in a relationship it's kind of like oh that doesn't make sense. No that's powerful but I bet a lot of women are motivated in that way.

Yes you want to help others and I think that whether you're a man or a woman and I didn't understand a lot behind his controlling but I was so in love with him that if I could do things that would make his life better and therefore I wouldn't have to have the fear or the being because there's always somebody in a relationship that brings up conflict. I am not that person. Right. I'm a bury my head in the sand I don't want to see it I don't want to acknowledge it. We can just get along. Yeah and he was more like if something wasn't working he would had no problem bringing up things and I'm like I don't deal with this.

So I think part of it was trying to avoid those times if I could just get everything done right the first time and when you have children you want them to be happy so it's very easy to put your spouse and your children your community your church ahead of things and I was okay with that. Yeah. But now I'm not. Yeah in some ways. It's not it's not a good thing.

It's the source it sounds like the source from which that comes from. Exactly. If it's low self-esteem I can become more worthy because I can do these things that's unhealthy. It's very unhealthy.

And if you're doing it in a healthy fashion it's because God calls me to do these things sacrificially and you are then willing and giving out of that. That's a healthier perspective. We are right near the end here and I do want to get into the healing perspective. I mean again 16 years okay Ron how long did you think it took?

He's like four or five. Yeah right. No she's right. I mean it took a long long time because each time I started to think I remember very clearly a point where I saw my son starting to talk to her the way I did and telling her why weren't you here at this time and I gave him the dad talk about you know don't talk to your mother that way and God just slapped me across the face and said who do you think's teaching these principles to your sons and I thought about generational sin and I thought about you know how many how many further generations of our family are gonna treat women that way and at that point I started realizing that I was so out of line with where God wanted me to be but that wasn't just about my relationship with Jan it was my relationship with other people with God I just wanted so badly to be in the driver's seat. So how did that you know you look at that some people even in their salvation with Jesus it's a moment they could point to it they can tell you the time and then with others it's almost like a rolling situation where it was drops of water over a long period of time that then on one day boom it made sense to me and I gave my life to the Lord.

I would think even in the cleansing of our bad habits it's very similar some people will have an epiphany I've heard of people alcoholics that just gave it up in one day it was done and then others who it was I might say like a rolling epiphany it took time and it sounds like that was true for you and then how did you get up when you stumbled when you were back into the control saying Lord why am I doing that how do you manage that process to hopefully end up in a better place. You know what's great about God is he takes your attempts to try and become the man he wants you to be and he says you're giving it your best shot let me make it a little easier the next time let me remind you how you felt the last time I would see the look in her eyes that was different and it wasn't like she believed me after maybe three or four times it was probably five or six years after those 16 years she talked about where I believe she started thinking I could actually change that wasn't very quick it took a long time for her to believe that I was capable of change. And Jan right here at the end I want to get that perspective from you the skepticism you may have had the hope you had the back to skepticism the hope women are living in that right now with their husbands. Exactly and it's now that we're on the far side of it you can look back and you can see those attempts but when you're still in it it takes you back to all of the other times that you were in that situation I wish I could say that I was like yay and I believe this and now I do because I've seen that but it's really hard at the time to be like stay encouraged but that was such a beautiful thing Ron the way you said you could look into Jan's eyes and her face and see as a barometer. And you don't forget you don't forget the way she used to look at me and I don't forget the fear and the sadness and how I reminded her of past experiences so there's something about being able to move toward the way God wants you to be that your soul just lifts and it's like oh I could be that guy and then you start realizing it feels so much better to let God handle the control and the fear than trying to deal with it yourself. Well in the biblical mandates in marriage are pretty amazing and I know that in this culture today you know they seem controversial but actually they're quite amazing and they work well when both people are functioning in a healthy way.

It's the best model out there isn't it? Husbands laying their lives down for their wives and wives respecting their husbands I mean it's the right formula it's God's DNA it's his plan in us spiritually and when we apply it it works well and if you're in that spot where you're screaming at me right now even hearing that you need to get a hold of us let's talk about it talk to one of our caring Christian counselors get the book by Ron Welch The Controlling Husband that's going to give you many more ideas on things you can do and if you're the controlling wife I'm sure you haven't written that book yet Ron but I'm sure those concepts will apply to you and of course if you can make a gift to focus of any amount we'll send it as our way of saying thank you. If you can't afford it it's not about that it's about asking you to join us in ministering to other people that need help if you can't do that right now we get that and you need the book let us know we'll trust others we'll cover the cost of it it's not about the financial transaction it's about giving you help and hope. Yeah reach out to us today our numbers 800 the letter A and the word family 800-232-6459 and we also have a lot of great details additional resources and more about Ron's book The Controlling Husband it's all in the episode notes just check there for the links. Ron and Jan again I want to say thank you for all that you've done and you know just exposing this to people it's it's very courageous to do that to take your weakest elements of your relationship thank the Lord behind you but to still lay those out there on a table for others to see it says a lot about your heart to want to help others as a counselor Ron and Jan certainly as his spouse you walk it all the time and people are gonna talk to you about it but thank you for that vulnerability and thank you for putting in the time to write this great book The Controlling Husband which takes a lot of humility Ron to lay it out there so thank you. To be fair I tell my students at Denver Seminary if I'm gonna ask them to be honest I've got to share my life and my journey so hopefully sharing it with you all lets people learn and grow in their relationship with the Lord. Man you've come a long way. Yeah still on a journey I consider myself a recovering controlling husband.

Yeah fair enough great to have you. Thank you guys so much. And thank you for joining us as a listener today we trust that you'll have a great weekend ahead with your family and your church family as well and on Monday we'll have some help for engaged couples to prepare for the good the bad and the sometimes ugly side of marriage.

And I had our clothes and I remember looking at these vomited clothes clothes with I was looking at these clothes with vomit all over them and at 19 I looked down and I thought to myself this is marriage. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Oh hey Mike got here as soon as I could what's going on man? Hey I just wanted to give you an update on my marriage. Is it good news? Yeah our marriage is going great right now I couldn't be happier.

Dude that's awesome. Yeah it's like a solid five out of ten. Having a marriage that's just okay isn't what couples really want to live. Give yourself and your spouse an all-inclusive weekend where you'll slow your pace and focus on each other. Get more details at focusonthefamily.com slash getaway that's focusonthefamily.com slash getaway