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Whenever you can encourage rather than criticize, and I think that is just so critical because it impacts other people's progress. When you read the story of Miriam in the Bible where they criticize Moses and then God struck her with leprosy, the whole place came to a standstill. They couldn't move. Nobody could move forward. And I say that's a lesson there because when you are critical like that, it really impedes other people's progress.
Well, Deborah Paget joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and she's going to be talking about how your words reveal your heart. I'm John Fuller. You know, John, have you ever said something that as the words are coming out, you're wishing, hoping that you could get them back in? Far too many words. I remember doing a devotion with Trent and Troy when they were younger, and I squeezed out toothpaste and then said, now put it back in the tube.
Of course, you can't. You could get a little back in there, but you can't. Do it, and that's the whole point of the devotional. You know, once you say something, it's impossible to put it back in the tube. And it was, I think, a pretty impactful little devotional.
But today, we want to talk about how to curb what we say and how we say it so our words reflect Christ. You don't have to worry about getting it back in the tube if you're reflecting the words of Jesus, right? Compassion and you know, good questions, being interested in somebody, sincere, loving, kind, all the fruit of the Spirit. The Bible tells us to do everything without complaining or arguing. Just that one command could take a lifetime to master.
That's my experience, because it isn't really about the tongue, it's about the heart, as the scripture says. From the heart, the tongue speaks. And man, we need to be mindful as Christians about those things. Here's the hope: with God's help and the Holy Spirit's guidance, we can grow in this area. We can learn to pause, to take our thoughts captive, and to bless instead of.
Wound. And here at Focus on the Family, we want to work on that. And we're assuming you too, as a believer in Christ, will want to work on that.
So we're going to cover this today with our great friend and guest, Deborah Pagay. Yeah, she is one of our most popular guests. We always love having her back here, and she spent many years as a leader in the corporate world. She's a CPA, a certified behavioral consultant, a Bible teacher, international speaker, and has written a number of books, including 30 Days to Taming Your Tongue: What You Say and Don't Say Will Improve Your Relationships, which is really the topic for the conversation today. You can learn more about the book at our website, and the link is in the show notes.
And, Jim, we're going to pick it up as you asked Deborah about why taming the tongue is so important. Why do you think people have resonated with your message?
Well, first of all, I think it's because God took a mess and turned it into a message because I wrote the book because I messed up. I mean, it was an accidental book, but I don't like to use that word accidental when I'm talking about the things of God.
So I'm going to say it's a providential book. But I really messed up and told something I wasn't supposed to tell. And I wasn't being indiscreet. I was just trying to rescue somebody. And so, and it backfired.
I was trying to help somebody out, blah, blah, blah. It backfired, and she was so upset with me. I decided to go on a tongue fast myself. I'm going to put myself on a plan for 30 days, and I'm not going to say anything negative.
Now, just try that.
So, this was for you in the end. It was a personal project for me only. I appreciate that vulnerability because a lot of people would say, Yeah, I wrote it for a friend. No, I wrote it for me. And people kept, and I would put signs in my office at work.
It would say tongue fast. That means when you come in here, don't discuss anything negative. I'm on a tongue fast. If people started to be negative, I Say, I can't discuss that. And so somebody said, I believe God wants you to write a book.
No, I believe God wants me to work on me.
Okay. And this really is capturing that journey. Yeah. And what you did.
Now, why are we so broadly, why are we all so affected? With tongue problems. I mean, it's so natural for us in our flesh to lash out, to say things we regret. It is because we are human. And also because we're not created carbon copies of each other.
And so we don't always know other people's sensitivities. You know, you may jokingly say something about my dark skin. You may not know that I am just like, oh, don't say that, or whatever. You just never know what people's sensitivities are. And so you're bound to offend somebody.
Yeah. And even though you're challenging us for 30 days, you started to say, you know, just try it for 24 hours. I want you to finish that challenge because I think you're going to say it's hard. I was going to say that at the end, but I'll say it now because don't think you can do all 30 of these tongues that I've listed in the book. I have 30 negative uses of the tongue.
Just try one a day or just try one a week. Yeah. Just, for instance, if you have trouble telling the whole truth, you tend to tell half the truth. Just say this week, I'm going to tell the whole truth and nothing but. I'm not going to imply something that's not true.
Here's an example: I tend to run late for things sometimes. And I'll just come in.
Now, in LA, you know, I would rush in and go, traffic. Yeah. I didn't say I was in traffic. I didn't say I was in traffic. I just said traffic.
Half truth. My husband said, listen, the half truth is a whole lie. Wow, that's good. Yeah. And so, but you see, subtle ways that we can not tell the truth.
And so we all have negative uses of the tongue.
So when I started this project, I said, I'm going to look up every negative use of the tongue I can find in the Bible. I'm going to find scriptures for them, and then I'm going to put a challenge out there to refrain from it.
So that's what I do. Yeah, and that's good. And we're going to cover some of those. One is the know-it-all tongue.
Now, the people that are the know-it-all people just went, no, don't cover that one. We already have this one. Move on to the next piece. What is the know-it-all tongue? Where you just can't even receive from anybody else, but every subject that comes up, you have the final word on it.
Even if you're in Bible study and there's been a great lesson laid out and you'll say, but what we have to really remember above all, it's like, no, we don't. That's not above all. You even have the vocabulary for this. No, really. Oh, here's the funny thing: when we're buying a car, because I deliberately like to let people teach me things, I just think it makes them feel better, especially if they're not.
Even if you already already know it. And see, that's a big challenge. It's hard to let, especially for a man. Yeah. You want to be the teacher.
I've been here, son. Yeah, yeah. Let me show you how to change that title.
Sometimes when we're buying a car or something, and they'll talk down to me because I'm the little woman. I think it's so funny because I am a CPA and they'll explain that, you know, with interest, you know, the payment has interest and principal. I think that is so funny. I have an MBA in finance. I can do an amortization schedule in my head.
And I'll say, okay, and I'll just act like they're telling me something. It's hard to bite your tongue in that case.
Well, but if you choose to, because let me tell you why you want to do that. It's pride. You don't want anybody to think you don't know something. It's this fear of appearing to be inadequate.
So, no, no, I'm adequate. I know that already. That's true. I think for men, it's hard to say I don't know, if I could be blunt. It's hard to say that.
And that is something we got to get over. And there are people who're exactly. Of it in the Bible. That should be the one, the 30-day challenge of saying, I don't know. That's what I'm going to do.
Yeah. What about in marriage? How does this know-it-all tongue tend to play out in marriage?
Well, I tell you what my mentor told me when she said, when I was engaged to Darnell and she was in a car with us one day, we were discussing something, and she said, Okay, Missy, we know you're smart. But don't know everything. She said, Let him know some things. And I'm thinking to myself, Yeah, I plan to let him know some things. Starting right now.
Starting right now. But I took that to heart. Let him know some things. You don't have to jump in there and say, I can do that. And so I'm pretty good at being vulnerable.
It just helps. Yeah. But it is a maturity in Christ to be able to bite the tongue and say, Okay, I don't have to straighten him out every time. You don't have to straighten anybody out. You don't have to tell somebody, I know that.
You just don't have to do that. That's pride. And you got to argue. You're teenagers, though. You might want to straighten some of them out.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Okay, now the argumentative tongue. Oh, boy. Oh, is this one hitting a little bit of a bunch of people? No, I grew up in a family that like to argue. I have relatives that arguing is their norm.
Okay, so let me ask that.
So your family of origin, how you grow up, could shape some of these maladies. You could become like that, or you could become the complete opposite. I decided I didn't want to be argumentative because I just thought an argument should have a resolution. You're right. Not just keep going in a circle because that's how my parents argued.
And they just, I never saw them really resolve something and say, okay, from now on, this is how we're going to go forward. It would just become circular. They just go into the next level of an argument. And I just think when people do that, it's because I think they're maybe feeling insecure about what they do know. Why do you need to argue that?
I have a brother who likes to argue the Bible. I don't argue the Bible. I just tell you what part I embrace, which is all of it. And if you choose not to, that's fine. That sounds pretty definitive.
But it's true. And I can understand that. I think you can create an environment of arguing. Yes. And some people might even say that's a positive because you want to be able to stand on firm ground.
You want to be able to defend your positions. And you should. You should be able to defend your faith, but you don't have to be mean about it.
Well, that's true. Yeah. I totally believe that. Because I think that's what's wrong. Even in politics, this last election just split a lot of relationships.
Sure. I'm thinking, I'm friends with everybody. I embrace everybody's right to believe what they want to believe. Why do you have to believe the way I do? Yeah, but there's a certain intolerance in the growing intolerance in the culture in this regard.
And it's both left and right. It is. And it's too bad. It's too bad. Yeah.
Well, okay, that's a good place to put that argumentative tongue. What about again in marriage? Let me apply this here when you have the spouse, and I'm not going to say it's the wife or the husband, just the spouse, who is just constantly picking a fight. What do you do? What if you're the receiver of that?
What advice do you have for that spouse to say, honey, can you stop chewing me up? I'm not processing at your speed. I'm not, you're just killing me here.
Well, I think you need to agree quickly with your adversary. The Bible talks about agree quickly with your adversary.
So, if my husband and I are in a discussion, I will say, I hear you. You see, I don't give any fuel to that. I'll say, I hear you. If he's putting forth a point, and if I don't, I hear you, does not mean I agree with you. It means I literally hear you.
Right. But that helps. But it reduces the focus. It does because half the part of resolving an argument is for that person to feel like they've been heard and you're validating their point.
So I hear you will do that. I hear you. And then I can say, we can just agree to disagree. That's what makes us so unique. We're different.
There is, and I think generally when people say I hear you, they do hear you. There is the occasional time when the person being told I hear you knows you're not listening.
Well, you gotta listen, though. You gotta listen to you.
So it has to be. You listen with your eyes and your expressions. You listen and you nod your head. Yeah. You do.
Deborah, the complaining tongue. I mean, again, these are societal problems right now. We seem to relish complaining. All of us. Yeah.
It's contagious. And we got to be sensitive to it. That's why I call this a FAFSA, where you become keenly aware of your tendency to engage in these negative behaviors. And complaining is so natural. I don't care.
You can be in a market and everybody's here's a good example. In the bank, in the bank. Oh, the line is long or whatever. And for people who still go to the bank, most of us do online banks. I don't think I do.
Some people do that. Like in years, you got to go there. Or I have to do that. The lines are too long. I have to send money off into relatives in distress.
So you have to go to Walmart or somewhere. I hate it. But, you know, but the complaint is like, oh, and I'm thinking, you're standing here because you have access to resources. Do you know that half the world lives on less than $2 a day?
So the half full cup. Right. So, but here's the deal. You got to become aware of your complaining. And I think that we could actually park on this and spend an hour talking about it because it is so easy.
So I like to give people. Challenge to go the next 24 hours. Don't express any displeasure with anything. Not the traffic, not the weather. Nothing that you can't do anything about.
And in the scriptures, the psalmist says, I poured out my complaint before the Lord. If the person you're complaining to can't do anything about it, stop talking. Yeah. Here's one that's funny for us. I remember when I first started Focus on the Family, it was 1989.
Wow. That was a long time ago. And I was on a training mission with another person and we were out and we went to a rental car counter to get the car. And they had no cars. And it was just out of a comedy situation.
And so the person who's training me from Focus on the Family was kind of upset with the agent saying, well, I reserved a car. Why wouldn't you have a car for me? And it was a little heated. And, you know, are you going to get a car? And the person finally brought all the information up on the screen and they said, oh, focus on the family.
I love Dr. Dobson. Focus on the family. And this person went, oh, great. That's so wonderful.
I mean, your tone changed like this. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a great lesson for me to bite my tongue, you know, when on an airline problem or a rental car problem. I'm trying to always behave myself because you never know when they're going to say, Oh, I listened to you on the radio.
Okay, now, lest I sound like a walking Bible, let me tell you, this is what keeps me from complaining. Romans 8:28, all things are working together for my good.
Now, it may not look like it, but if I stop and tell myself that, this delay is working for my good, this traffic is working for my good. God has put it in the world. That's a hard one to believe. Come on. No, really, I do it.
I do it. Traffic's working for my good. And I don't care if I get up there two miles later and see an accident.
Well, that could have been me if that car hadn't cut in front of me and slowed me down. You know, so we got to believe that. It's a good way to look at things. Let's go to the self-absorbed tongue. I mean, that's tough to say with your tongue, but the self-absorbed tongue.
What are you describing there? I'm describing a person who's always talking about himself. The me monster. They're not interested in you, you know, and what you're about and your dreams and hopes. They're just talking about all the wonderful things that happened to them.
Oh, my book, 30 Days of Tame Your Tongue, has sold a million copies. And I'm in Denver doing six media interviews, and I'm just me, me, me, me. Can I ask? Ask you though, at the core of that is deep insecurity. Deep insecurity.
So there's more stuff going on there.
So, how does the person, let's again go to the spouse? You're married to that person. You've noticed this. You obviously said yes, but how do you begin to say, honey, have you ever really just. recorded what you're saying.
Have you ever heard yourself And what you're saying, how do you go about helping each other grow? I would take the sandwich approach. You always say something positive, then you give them the meat of the matter, and you can say, Listen, I just love it that God has blessed you in so many areas, He's just caused you to achieve in so many areas, or so many great things are happening. Are you aware of the fact that other people may not be as blessed, and it may not be very endearing to them to hear all about you like that? And so, you might want to focus on other people, ask them questions, and show them how to do it.
My husband, I have, and he's not self-absorbed, but as part of networking, he's learned how to ask people questions and be interested in others because you know they say that everybody's favorite subject is what? Themselves.
So, I like to focus on other people. I don't want to just focus on me and what I'm doing. I like to ask them questions. You know, so tell me about your background. Where did you grow up?
Yeah, and it's so people love to engage and talk about themselves. And we got to watch that so that we can listen to it and be genuinely interested in other things. Here's the greatest challenge on earth when you have children, and especially again, I'll just go to the teen years. That's an important parenting tool. How to ask questions of your teenagers rather than just them and really thoughtful questions, not how did school go today?
Because that's grunt. Yeah, good. Yeah, even if you ask who's your favorite teacher, why? What do you like about her style? Yeah.
What teacher do you not like the most? What do you not like most? And why not? Yeah. And then don't be judgmental about it.
Don't be judgmental. You need to learn math. Listen. It's fun. Two ears, one mouth.
Listen. There you go. You also mentioned a moment ago the half-truth tongue. I really appreciate all these wonderful tongue twisters that you give us. The half-truth tongue.
Elaborate on that a little bit more. I like that idea of telling truth. Prevarication is what the scripture calls it.
Well, and we don't think we lie, do we? No, let's just call it what it is. It's a half-life. But as my husband said, a half-truth is a whole lie. Yeah, embellish it.
But I used to be the queen of that. I would just tell half the truth. If I had to take off from work and take my mom to the doctor, I only needed like four hours, but I would just take off the rest of the day. No, I take my mom to the doctor. But I did take my mom to the doctor.
It would take all day. I'm saying that because I think in the Christian community, we really pour ourselves into this one because we think we're getting away with it, but the Lord sees that and he doesn't want that. He wants us to be honest and straightforward. I guess the question then becomes, are we a culture that struggles with honest and straightforward? We struggle with sin.
Period. And if we're not conscious of it, which is why I like for people to go in these 30-day periods of abstinence from certain things, because it sensitizes you to where you are. You know, and we all have areas of our tongue, especially that we could be less critical. We could be less, a whole bunch of things. And so if we tend to tell half the truth, understand that it's displeasing to God.
And if you want to read a story just kind of like that with Ananias and Sapphire, who sold their land in the book of Acts, and they said, because everybody else was selling land and donating it, it was such a culture there that everybody was sharing. And they say, yeah, we sold ours, but they told a lie. They did sell it, but they lied about how much they sold it for. They kept back part of it. And God struck them dead.
I think a lot of people that read that go, wow, that's pretty harsh. That's pretty harsh, but I think God was setting a precedent. To say, listen, we're not going to tolerate these. I'm not with this. No, we need to tell the truth.
Foundationally, we need to base the church on the truth. Back to what you were saying, though, about your own experiences. Why were you. Telling half-truths about taking your mom to the doctor or something like that? Because I was trying to mislead people.
Listen, any lie is an intent to deceive. But for what purpose? Because I wanted them to think it took all day so I could go do something else. I don't want to say I took my mom to the doctor for three hours and I spent the other five shopping.
Okay. This is a really tough one. Is it ever reasonable to just, you know, you have to tell the whole truth really every time? You don't have to volunteer the whole truth, but you always have to look at the intent of the heart. If your intent, even with the silence, if the intent is to deceive, meaning I want you to think something different than what the reality is, then you are lying.
Yeah, and that's what it is. It is. See, if you just call a spade a spade, then you can just go in and be healed. You can't be healed of things you conceal. You really can't.
Now, in that context of encouragement, you know, it's so fun. It's almost like giving a birthday present when you can be an encourager. But again, just personally, that can be a struggle at times because you're feeling like we need reprimand, we need course correction, especially if you're in management, you're leading people, you have kids at home. There are times when you have to be. Helping them see the path.
And giving them hope rather than punishment.
Well, giving them hope, but sometimes it might be punishment. And an expectation, though, that I know you can do better than this. And there may have to be a punishment, but you don't leave it with just that.
Well, and I just want people to make, and me, to hear from you that, you know, course correction is okay. God, that's truth. And that's something that God wants us to do to encourage each other. Even Paul writes about that, to finish the race strongly, to rise up to the right standards. And whenever you can, encourage rather than criticize.
And I think that is just so critical because it impacts other people's progress. When you read the story of Miriam in the Bible, where they criticize Moses and then God struck her with leprosy, the whole place came to a standstill. They couldn't move. Nobody could move forward. And I say that's a lesson there because when you are critical like that, it really impedes other people's progress.
And so one of the things we can do in the book, I talk about the fact that not only should you refrain from these 30 negative uses, but find 30 ways to be more positive. Encourage somebody to say, Yes, you can do this. Let me tell you a story. I have a friend who lives, whose husband is very mean. And I called her one day and I said, I just want to tell you that your merchandise is good.
I was studying Proverbs 31, and I said, She perceives that her merchandise is good. I want to let you know that you have good merchandise. And she said, She kept that message on her phone for like forever almost. That's amazing. Because she wanted to hear that.
She said a little bit of encouragement. Yeah. What kind of trigger do you use? And I guess for temperament reasons, you know, you have a more negative temperament to a more positive temperament.
So the more positive person, it's going to come more naturally. Yeah. So speak to both of that. What kind of trigger do you use to say, oop, I'm going to bite my tongue. I'm not going to say that negative thing I thought of.
And you're doing this in milliseconds. Yes. And you're going to say something positive and encouraging. What trigger do you use to make sure you're going to be able to do that?
Well, here's my trigger. The Holy Spirit will often tell you, don't say that. You know, it's like a caution light. He's like, okay, you need to stop talking. You're about to mess up.
And then sometimes I have to tell you, I don't always.
Sometimes I run the light, I violate it, especially if somebody's not doing a great job. And I hate this because I'm thinking that's not brain surgery. And I've actually said that, but I didn't know what a negative impact that had on somebody. To one of my former employees, he lied about his qualifications and he couldn't do the job. And I looked at it one day and I said, That's not brain surgery.
How hard is that?
Well, that's like saying, idiot. That's a cutting remark. Yeah, and I didn't know that. But I could be right with you. But it wiped him out.
I didn't know that. I'm thinking, well, you shouldn't have lied about the job. The least I'm going to do is give you a tongue lash and you should. Again, a lot of people are going to say that was reasonable, Deborah. Why are you beating yourself up?
I know, but some people will say, so how do we need to interpret that it wasn't? Because there's a logic to that. The tone, the put-down, when you say everybody knows that, what do you say? Except you, idiot.
Okay, so let's back the tape up. Let's back the tape up. Play that forward how it should have been. And I said, okay, he didn't post the receivables right when I was working as a CFO at this place. And I said, now, I, you know, I shouldn't have said, how hard is that?
I'm going to say, what aspect of this did you find? Confusing because I could use that as a teaching moment rather than a moment to beat him up. And you don't add this, it obviously confused you. Yeah, right. Yeah, you say, What part of this do I need to not make clear?
That is what part do you need more clarity? I could ask that question if I stopped. If I thought about it and prayed about it before I said it, but sometimes you're so frustrated when you're so goal-oriented. And that's why, when you are a high achiever, you have to watch your tongue more probably than anybody else.
Well, and you think about that, the immediate response is: wouldn't this be a better world? But think of this: wouldn't it be a better church if we had these principles down? Talk about the retaliating tongue, because that's one we need to cover here at the very end. Because it's so easy to fall into that spot, and especially in marriage, because you have to retaliate means to return the punishment.
So, you're keeping score. Yeah, you're keeping score. And if he says something, I'm going to say something. Why do you need to return the punishment rather than seeking first to understand?
So, I will win, Deborah. Have you won? No, in the end, you lose everything. You lose because words never die. And that's what we have to remember: words never die.
They're going to last like they're going to be like shrapnel in that person's brain.
So, you don't need to return the punishment, you need to seek first to understand. Why don't you turn that into an opportunity to say, Could you explain more what you mean by that? And even if it was mean, the person said something that was mean, you need to say, you know, you're Your tone really hurt me. It's okay to be vulnerable and to say that those words really hurt me, and I really wish you would think about it next time. If you think about this, what's so good is this applies to every Area of your life, everybody, in your marriage, in your parenting, in your work relationships, in your friendships.
I mean, this is a secret to living a blessed life. And words frame our relationships.
So, whether we're at work, our words, you can encourage your boss and become one of his favorite people. Oh, you will. You will. Try it. It works.
I've done this. My husband the other day, I said, You know what I like about you? And he's so used to me being positive for a reason. He said, Uh-oh, is this a setup for you to ask me? There's a list coming, right?
Saturday's list is on its way.
So I don't know about you. Fix the door. We're back to that. John, fix the door. Just call somebody.
Deborah, this has been so good. What's the end of that story?
Well, I wasn't about to give him a list. I just heard about a guy who was not as sensitive to his wife's needs as mine. And I wanted to tell him that I was so appreciate the fact that he was. He thought I was setting him up. Yes.
To answer somewhere. Because it was Saturday. But it was a true compliment. It was a true compliment, and he liked it later, but he. Said, oh, I thought that was a setup so that you could ask me to do something.
What a fun conversation with Deborah Paget on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I'm sure if you're like me, there's been a little bit of conviction along with her message. You know, every time Deborah is with us, she brings such good biblical insight and wisdom and practicality and smiles. I mean, it's just beaming from her. That's why she's one of our most popular guests.
And, you know, here at Focus on the Family, we want to equip you in your faith walk so that you can be a better husband and wife, a better dad or mom. We're here with answers to those questions that you have and hopefully solutions to those struggles that you're in. We also have great resources available to you, like Deborah's book, 30 Days to Taming Your Tongue. That's a pretty good transaction, don't you think? 30 days, and that tongue will come under better behavior.
In fact, when you make a monthly pledge to the Ministry of Focus on the Family today of any amount, we'll send you a copy of Deborah's book. As our way of saying thank you for joining the ministry. And if you can't commit to a monthly amount, we understand. If you can send a one-time gift, we'll do the same. Your continued prayer and financial support allows us to provide much-needed help to individuals and families.
And we couldn't do this ministry without you. We're in it together. Yeah, join us today, donate, and get your copy of 30 Days to Taming Your Tongue when you call 800, the letter A and the word family. 800-232-6459. Or check the show notes for the details.
You know, John, before we wrap up, let me remind everybody: Focus on the Family has a beautiful campus right here in Colorado Springs. And as you're mapping out your summer vacation, let me invite you to stop by. We have a wonderful welcome center with Wits Inn Soda Shop, which is a great break for the summer. You can browse our big bookstore and even take a behind-the-scenes tour and learn more about Focus on the Family. Plus, kids have something called Kids Radio, and they can do a little CD with Adventures and Odyssey scripts in there.
And we put their voices into that. It's a great little excursion. Yeah, years ago, I had a nephew do that, Jim, and he listened pretty much the whole 12-hour drive home to that CD over and over. Jim in Odyssey. It's a great hit.
And in addition to the CD, you're also going to get an MP3 of the audio.
So, visit us, is the point, and give us a call if you have questions. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they?
But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us, and it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocus with JimDaily.com.
Yeah.
