If you get frustrated, go take a walk, go pray, go... Do something with your spouse. Don't do that with the child. Emotional consequences are not helpful. That's Dr.
John Townsend, and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He's going to help you set boundaries with your children. I'm John Fuller. John, I'm looking forward to this. I mean, my boys are now in their 20s, but this is the kind of information I wish I would have understood and digested with Gene to be able to do this better.
I mean, we understood the concepts, but we didn't slow down to really apply them as best as we could. And for that reason, you know, we want to make sure you're equipped as a parent of younger children to be able to apply these boundaries because the outcomes are so good and children feel more confident, more secure. Even though it takes a little bit of, what's the right word, discipline, to be able to apply these as a parent. But it's going to be great content. Yeah, and Dr.
John Townsend is a speaker and best-selling author, and we're covering a book he co-wrote with Dr. Henry Cloud. It's called Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children. And we'll encourage you to get a copy of that. Yeah, that's so good.
Welcome. Good to have you back, John. Great to be here. What are some of those obstacles that parents run into when they're setting boundaries?
Well, there's two ways to look at the obstacles. First is things that kids do to oppose boundaries. They don't like them at first. They escalate sometimes and they blow up or they melt down.
Sometimes they withdraw and feel hurt and they don't feel very loved. And sometimes they manipulate to get around it. But that's not the biggest obstacle. The biggest obstacle is us. The parent and some attitudes that we have and mindsets that we have that we've got to look at.
That makes the biggest difference in the world. Let me give you a few examples. One is to need the child's love. I need my child to think I'm good and loving and helpful and think positive about me. I need my child.
Well, if you need your child to think positive of you, you'll never say no. You'll be the circus parent. Another one is, this is a technical term, but it's very important in parenting, fragilizing. To fragilize means to think that your child is a little broken egg, that you've got to walk on eggshells around so that when child gets discomfortable, uncomfortable, because you're frustrating them or saying no, are they going to fall apart? Are they going to have a nervous breakdown?
And that's making somebody who's pretty resilient most of the time fragile. That's a problem in parenting. Let me ask you in that regard, because this is a really critical point. The fact that culturally we're avoiding, allowing. That resilience.
Because we're doing exactly what you're saying. We're over-protective. We're overly engaged. And I think, again, this is one of those. Aha moments for a lot of parents who are watching or listening, who are the helicopter parent, the hovering parent, because they feel that's the responsibility of a parent of a three-year-old, five-year-old, nine-year-old.
Why do we need to back down a little bit? Because of the outcomes that will occur if we don't. Yeah, the best way to look at that is look at the sources for reality. One is the research. It just says if you are always keeping the child from any discomfort or unhappiness of any kind, you put out an anxious child.
They feel insecure. Like, I don't have the strength to handle, you know, hard things, and I can't, I don't have frustration tolerance. And all of a sudden, they're very scared about life because somebody took care of this for them. The second is project into the future.
Now, if I don't want him or her at nine to ever feel bad, what kind of a husband or a wife or a worker or a minister or a friend are they going to be? They're going to be overwhelmed with life all the time. And the third source is, let's read our Bible. What does it say in Ephesians? It says that we're supposed to build each other up with grace and truth.
Well, grace is the love and the support and the listening. And truth is, hey, there's some house rules here.
So. It's just not even a question anymore that the children need to know what no means and to have their own no ultimately. Yeah, that's so good. We're going to do something a little different. We've got some callers who have sent their questions in, knowing this program was going to occur, which I think is great.
So, you know, our goal here at Focus is to help you do this parenting job as best as you can. That's always our goal. And hearing from you in this way, I think we're going to do a few is a great way to put real people in this spot and let them ask you a question.
So let's take the first one. I'm wondering at what age it's appropriate to start disciplining your child. In general, you know, I was always taught that you just start as early as possible, but I'm wondering like what age they can start connecting the cause and effect of their actions. Like I would assume it's before they can have you know a full conversation, but I'm just not sure what that point is. That's a great question.
I don't believe in a lot of this during infancy. The first 12 months, that child is busy just trying to figure out what the world is and where love is and where safety is. And they don't even have the neurological capacities yet to understand the meaning of the word no. With a few exceptions, maybe structure and feeding times and nap times later in the first year. But toddlerhood was where I believe it needs to begin, which is, you know, the onesie-twosie.
And that's when they can learn language. Cognitively, they can go, oh, there's this word called no, I need to understand this. And if a parent will lovingly just set out, House rules, you know, here's how you treat your dog, or here's how you obey mom and dad, or these sorts of things. And when they have a bad attitude, help to correct that. That's very important, very helpful.
It sets the stage. Don't start that too late. And toddlerhood is fine for that. Yeah. Let me ask you, especially like with young children, kind of the phase we're talking about right now, the mom who is just struggling with the get your shoes on because it's time to go.
I mean, this sounds simple, but it's so right. And she has to repeat that, or dad has to repeat that 20 times. I said, get your shoes on, we got to go. How do you create a boundary around that and enforcement of timeliness.
Well, the first thing you have to do is to realize that if you say it several times, that's a thing that we call nagging. And nagging without consequences creates insanity. Right. Because the child learns, well, they always say it five times. I'm a number four right now.
I'm fine. Isn't it interesting? They do learn how to delay.
So. You tell them, I always say, give them the 30,000 picture. You know, sweetheart, I used to say it seven times, and I think that I'm going to change that. I'm going to do it one time, and then you'll have the time out, or I'll take away the toy if it doesn't happen.
Well, they don't believe that because they have a thousand experiences of mom doing it or dad doing it that way. But then, when you follow that up, and after the one time, you take the toy away or whatever, and the child is now in a new reality. I'm living in a new world because I lost something and they followed up. And so That's going to be a you know a conflict. It's going to be upsetness, but you have to tolerate that and be loving about it.
And the more you do that and don't nag, but say after the first time, I've got parents that were friends that said, once we did that, all of a sudden we have all this lack of angst and we had more fun time. Yeah, interesting. You know, that's the goal, right? That's the goal. Things happen when asked, and consequences are few.
And they put on their shoes. Can you believe that, Jim? Which is the goal. My goodness. You know, another concept in the same space is something you referred to as emotional consequences, to avoid emotional consequences.
And this is another big one that we as parents tend to fail at because we get emotional. We're angry because it's now driven our temperature emotionally up. I said to get those shoes on now. And that's not helpful because that kind of reaction or direction boundary, it starts to hurt the identity. Of the child.
They think shame, it's shame.
Okay, I'm not doing the right thing. For whatever reason, the child may not even understand it. I just enjoy playing. I want to color more. I don't want to put my shoes on.
But the parents. unhealthy emotional rise. Can lead to some issues later. Right. You know, it reminds me of Colossians 3, where.
The Bible says, Don't exasperate or embitter your child because they'll get discouraged. But that is a good scripture. It makes so much sense because when you look at it, there's this little person called a child, and there's this big people out here. And you want the big people to be sane, they want to be loving and rational, all those things. And if mom or dad blows their top with these emotional consequences, these shaming things, the kid thinks, I live in a crazy world.
And it's scary because they're not safe anymore. But if the parent goes, this is the rule, now. I'm going to be clear about it and stays warm about it. I mean, firm, but warm. The child goes, Oh, I live in sanity, and she's safe, and he's safe, and I can do this.
So you have to, if you get frustrated, go take a walk, go pray, go do something with your spouse. Don't do that with the child. Emotional consequences are not healthy. And I mean, this is the thing that I've noticed even in raising my boys. You have to do everything within your power to always be the adult.
To always be the calm one, the calm voice, never. move into a place where you get Angry and emotionally destructive, if I could say it that way. That's a challenge because they will, boy, the teen years, will they push your buttons or what? But you have to come back to this: okay, I'm the parent, I'm not the child. But we can tend to, as parents, to get down in the mud with them.
You know, what I think really helps there, Jim, is that anytime you end that immediate crisis, a meltdown in the grocery store or somebody smoking dope at 14, you know, whatever the meltdown is, is don't get lost in the present crisis. Think future. What I'm getting ready to do with my child, I want to play the long game. How am I going to affect them as a parent, as somebody who's in their 30s? And what I next do will get me into my prefrontal cortex, and I won't be amygdala hijacked fighting and flight.
Just think about the future when that happens, and you'll be the adult. And it's a good distraction too, to try to think about the future. John, we have another parent who wants to ask a question. Let's hear what their question is.
So, one of my twins in particular is just has always just been a little more emotionally sensitive, boy. And where it's coming out now in these pre-teen years is just kind of like an overall moodiness or sullenness. Really, it pushes my buttons, just the facial expressions and just the kind of like woe is me ism where I'm trying to. You know, we really want our kids to see all the good that God has for them. And so how do you handle that without heaping shame?
You know, this is a really important question because Especially in teen years, the hormones take over, puberty takes over, the endocrine's going, and the moodiness happens. And a lot of parents are, goodness gracious, I want this child to see the good things that God's brought around.
So, this is sort of a semi-boundaries and semi-also attachment relationship question. And in terms of the boundaries part, when there's misbehavior with a sensitive teen, it doesn't mean you drop the rule and say, well, if you're upset, if it's going to make you discouraged, If it's a reasonable boundary about behavior or conduct, these sorts of things, you gotta hold the rule. But you do need to listen more. And what we find is instead of saying, stop feeling moody, get happy. Yeah.
Yeah. I never worked with me. Is when you keep the structure, but you also say, Tell me more about it. When the child feels understood that my parent is with me, even though I'm down, I mean, think about David in the Psalms. He was always complaining to God, and that's why we know it's okay, and God was okay with it.
The child begins to feel like you're in the well with me. I do feel bad about my dating life or I'm not doing well in sports or whatever. And the parent comes in and says, I know that's tough. The child feels like I'm in this empty well of pain. But you're not talking me out of it.
You're in the well with me, giving me grace and attunement. And the child begins to think, this is okay, but don't drop the structure and the responsibility at the same time. It's a win-win, not a zero-sum game. John, let me ask you this. How can parents teach their children to manage their own responsibilities?
That's kind of the golden question, actually, because this is what every parent at every stage is going to be. troubled by how do I do this how do I teach my child Life responsibilities, and they then do them. I can give you the big picture in four words. If it helps with this. Because this is the question.
Incentivize kids to make good choices with the boundary thing. The first thing is love, because no child can take a boundary or a rule or a job or an obligation unless they know their love, because they're going to be disheartened. None of us can do things if we think somebody's not on our side on our team.
So you've got to love them and let them know and be attached to them. But the second thing is, you've got to give them the rules. Here's the truth. The truth is, this is how we conduct things in our house.
So they know it. They've got to be informed. It's not okay to say, I'm going to give you a consequence, and they never knew. Here's the house rules. I can tell a funny story about that.
There's universal house rules like obey parents and help out with chores and do your homework. And then there's those ones that are particular to your child, like your child's personality. Like with an extrovert, then you take away their phone because they love social stuff. With the introvert, then they can't have a lot of alone time. I mean, you know, the children, and Barbie and I, when the kids were small, we had horrible bathroom things.
They'd just go, I don't know what it was about the bathroom and brushing teeth. They would just do these things. And finally, we were writing things like, don't put toothpaste on the dog. And it was like so particular. And so we finally got, wait a minute, this is leave the bathroom like you found it.
Okay.
So you've got to go through the universal rules and the particular rules. But that's the second thing, is the truth, the rules. The third thing, and this is what's so scary for parents, especially Christian parents, is freedom. You got to be free to disobey. Because if you're not free to disobey, you'll never learn.
And the parents that are uber-uber-controlling and kind of rigid, the kid never has a chance to disobey. And watch what happens later in life in college. I want to emphasize this because this is really good. It's kind of another light bulb. It feels like, as we're parenting in our limited ability, and that's okay.
I mean, we haven't done this before. It didn't come with a manual. You're learning as you go. And how many parents want a do-over? You ever say that to Dina?
I've said that to Dina. I wish I could have a do-over. But in that regard, it's okay for the child. to fail. You actually want them to.
And then be that net to help them learn from that and to do better next time. I think we, this would be true for Gene and I, I think we had a goal of zero failure rate. And that's so unhealthy for the child. And that would be a do-over for me to be more. engaged with our boys to allow them to fail.
And Allow them to be healthy in that. Right. Now, there's a certain limit to that. You don't tell a three-year-old they can run out in traffic. That's awful.
But yeah, they need to be able to fail because there's no learning without it. You know, you take Joshua 24, it says, choose this day who you're going to serve. God even says, I'm not going to make you do this, there's no have to here. And the thing that, especially in those middle years, guys, you want to be around when they fail.
So I didn't want, we didn't want perfect children those age because we had the suspicion that if they were perfect with us, then we couldn't be around to monitor things and guide things, in college is going to be a nightmare. We always felt a little insecure around some parents that their kids are just kicking and just how can I please my parents during the junior high years and the high school years. And we were thinking, gosh, we're not that. And then we found out these nightmares happened in college because now they learned how to choose.
So freedom is a good thing.
So the first step is the love. The second thing, here's the rule, that's the boundary. The third is the freedom to fail and to disobey. And the fourth is reality consequences. Here's what happens.
And I've set up appropriate reality consequences. Which is giving them something they don't want, like chores, taking away something they do want, like a phone, and there's the whole four words. And that's kind of what the book is about. Yeah. You know, in terms of responsibility, Dr.
Towson, there is a moment most of us parents face where our child says, I can't do it. And there's something in what you just said that is making me wonder how do we handle those moments? Because we aspire to actually you can do that, because we think you can. There's some coaching involved in there, there's some natural consequences, some failure. But how do we help our child understand the difference between I just don't want to do that or I don't think I can?
And my parents really want me to. Yeah, John, that's just a real normal problem. In the book, we call it the law of responsibility: how do you bear your own load, like Galatians 6 says? And a lot of children will think, I can't do it because it's uncomfortable.
Now, some things they can't do. That's why it's important to have age-appropriate responsibilities. In the book, we've got a table on that so you can know what's different between a four-year-old and a 13-year-old, because there's some things they cannot do. But you start with what I call OJT, on-the-job training, walk them through it. Here's how you feed the dog.
Here's how you do your homework and stay with it for 45 minutes without a break. Here's how you learn how to cook.
So you walk through them as you would with a job.
So then they go, I'm getting that capacity because mom and dad are training me. And then there's a learning curve. And they Don't walk the dog right, or they only sit still for 10 minutes or whatever. And the learning curve makes mistakes, and you're just compassionate about that, but you stick with it.
Next, you empathize with the complaining. Let them complain about it. As long as they're doing it, don't trigger.
So, so many parents don't like the attitude, and you either criticize them and shame them, or you cave in and say, well, you're upset. But don't do either one of those. Just empathize. I know it's tough. Get back to work.
And then you praise the success. That's how kids learn competency in life for a skill or a marriage or faith. Let's hear one more question before we end today. And I want us to come back tomorrow if you're willing, and we'll keep this rolling because it's so good for parents to really understand boundaries. Let's listen to this question.
My question relates to my 14-month-old. I'm a first-time mother to a beautiful little girl, and I'm finding myself saying the word no to her a lot more than I ever thought I would. And she now says no back to me, and it feels like a little bit of a game. I'm just wondering: how can I implement boundaries? How can I deter her from doing things that are unsafe?
How can I get her to stop doing things I don't want her to do without the use of the word no, especially during a season where communication is limited right now with the skills that she has?
So, any feedback would be much appreciated. Thank you again. Bye. This is the ultimate question for parents: how we get into this no debate. It's like a tennis match where the ball is the word no and it's going back and forth over the net.
It really is.
Well, let me pose another way to look at this.
So why toddlerhood to avoid know? Might as well stop it in early childhood or late childhood or early adolescence or late. Maybe saying no is a bad thing all the way through life.
Well, there's going to be a nightmare. And so let's don't just think about the toddlerhood. If you don't like the word no, there's a problem because it's a great word. What does Matthew 5 say? Let your yes be yes or your no be no.
It helps us, it gives us structure.
So, what we found out is the only group that shouldn't really have a lot of no is like we talked about earlier, the infant. They really can't metabolize or digest that. But a toddler on, they need it and they learn it. And I'm so happy with this caller because her child is responding with her own no, meaning I'm developing an identity. I'm going to protect myself.
I might have a good relationship and not let anybody, you know, gaslight me. When the toddler says, does what you don't like and you say no, and it's a firm no, and it's a nice no, but it's not a mean no, then they begin to protest, set the consequence, make it a reasonable consequence. And after it's become like normal, normalized, that this is the way my family is, this is the way mom and dad are, they calm down. It's like the rails of the crib for a baby. Structure brings security.
A kid without a no in their lives is more insecure. And if you look at the long-term research on parenting, it's really, really interesting. There are two factors of all these studies about what makes a nice person by age 21, from 0 to 21, two factors. One is appropriate warmth, real warmth, listening, getting down to their level, you know, caring. And the second's appropriate structure and strictness.
That's the two that matter. Really interesting. And unfortunately, as parents, we tend to see those as very different things. And like most of life, we lean into one and not the other. And when you do that in an imbalanced way, you end up with problems either way.
And you end up with the split parent problem: the Disney parent and the Uber strict parent. And then the child learns: here's where I have fun, I can do what I want, and here's the one that I'm kind of afraid of and resentful. Parents need to be integrated in what the Bible calls grace and truth. That's good. John, right at the end here, I want to cover one thing that seems to be kind of a phenom amongst younger parents right now: this idea.
Of avoiding the word no, but it's not a healthy thing. And I think they refer to it as gentle parenting. Speak to that issue. It's kind of touching on this idea of being out of balance in one direction. And I, you know, some of the best advice I ever got from a friend, he said, try to say yes in your parenting more than no.
But that came to activity. You know, when your son asks you or your daughter, do you want to play catch? Try to say yes. Don't say no, I'm busy. And that's how he was applying it.
And I think that's a distinction, too. Say yes when it comes to things your child wants to do after work or whatever it might be, rather than saying, I'm really tired, I'm busy, whatever. Then there's this don't say no in order to be gentle on the child. Speak to that.
Well, I think that the gentle parenting thought pattern, there's some strengths in it. One is, They tend to be more emotionally attuned to how the child is feeling. It's very important. The entombment is a big deal. Also, I think it's good to sometimes explain the why instead of just I'm the mommy all the time, you know, because I'm the parent.
Well, sometimes you have to do that, but sometimes it's helpful to say because it might hurt somebody's feelings because we want you to be a success. And the fact that it's kind of anti-harshness, well, Harshness can really d damage a child. But Here's the weaknesses, I think. No matter how warm we are and how attuned to emotion we are, it can become Permissiveness, and then the child doesn't learn structure and responsibility. Also, there's an over-validating, they call it sometimes, of always over-appraising everything, and that can dysregulate the neurology of a child's brain because they know that they're not that great and they begin to feel like they're a sham.
So you're telling me I'm going to be the next president.
Well, maybe I am, but right now I can't even make it through my classes.
So they feel this disconnect. The overphraising can be a problem. And also the collaborative conversation instead of no, like, well, let's work this out together.
Well, what that does is the child begins to think, I'm in charge here too, right? I'm just like these guys are. I got a vote. I got a big vote. And instead of I'm going to be in a world where there are authority figures and there's a God who owns everything and there's bosses and all this sort of thing, it becomes more confusing for them and sometimes creates.
A sense of entitlement and the inability, this is the big one: the inability to tolerate life's limits. Yeah, that's big, and it seems epidemic right now.
So, John, like I said, this is great. Let's go another day and cover some more of the content in the book. And what a great book it is. Dr. John Townsend with his co-author Henry Cloud: Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children.
Make a donation of any amount to Focus, and we'll send you the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. And just know that you're supporting something that we are having an impact on. I think last year alone, we were able to help 470,000 families prepare for that parenting journey. That's a good thing, and we're really grateful that Focus is having that kind of impact. Yeah, and we need your continued financial support to keep doing that kind of work to support parents.
So, please make a monthly gift as you can, or a one-time donation. And when you do, request your copy. Of boundaries with kids, and we'll be happy to send that out to you. Just call 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459, or stop by the show notes. While you're at the website, be sure to sign up for our age and stage newsletter.
You get free resources straight to your email inbox tailored to the age and stage of each of your children, and we've got the details right there on the site for you. And Dr. Townsend, you're involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.
Well, it's the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California. It's for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder. We're a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We've got three programs. You can get a master's or certificate in counseling or in organizational leadership or in executive coaching and consulting.
And we have now a PhD in counseling. And actually, Forbes magazine made us the number one remote PhD in counseling.
So we're real happy about that. We have hundreds of students. They're getting great jobs. We're at the bottom third of expensive schools like ours. And we have these great guest experts, people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lincione.
There's a person named Jim Daly who speaks with our students who's very well. It's always fun to talk to the students.
So yeah, we're at TownsendInstitute.com. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Dr. Townsend and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
