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Discover more at hoperestored.com. That's hoperestored.com. And the goal, yes, is marriage. In fact, if you look in the definition of Friends' First Stating, we say the goal is a life-giving, lifelong marriage.
So that's the goal. But that's not the purpose. The purpose of dating is growing a friendship. that might get you there. That's Michael Johnson, and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, talking about how you can prepare yourself well for marriage.
Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. John, we have so many great resources here at Focus on the Family. The way people need to think about this place is a treasure trove of help for marriage, pre-marriage, for parents, for guidance on movies and all kinds of things. We have Hope Restore.
The list is just so long. If you have an issue in your family, call us and get the ball rolling, and we will help to find a solution for you. We will work tirelessly to do that. And to ensure that you have what you need to make your marriage as strong as it can be, to help you in your parenting, and so much more. And we're going to share some great basic tools for developing healthy relationships and putting Christ first today as we talk about the dating relationship.
Do you remember those days? I do. With some fondness and also some sorrow about some of the ways I mismanaged that. Wow, maybe we'll get into that. I hope not.
Our guest today is Michael Johnson. He's the president and dean of dating at Future Marriage University, which he co-founded with his wife Julie. And he's written a book called Date Like You Know What You're Doing: Your Date Prep Guide. And that is the basis for our conversation today. You can learn more about Michael and what he does and this great book.
We've got the link in the show notes. Michael, welcome to Focus on the Family. Thank you for having me.
Okay, now this dating expert thing, that's quite a label, but you did date quite a bit in college, it sounds like.
Well, yeah, you got to understand. That and I was looking for a believer and I grew up in St. Louis and there wasn't a plethora of believers there that wasn't the buckle of the Bible belt, at least not ones I was attracted to. But I get to Baylor University in Waco, Texas, and the scales fall from my eyes. And I see that it is good.
And this is the motivation for going to Baylor?
Well, you know, it's funny you say that because I honestly, with God as my witness, did not notice that in my visits prior. It wasn't until I showed up for orientation that I was like, Oh my goodness, gorgeous, godly women everywhere. What was your major at Baylor?
Well, I was a business major.
Okay. This is like a commercial for Baylor. And we love Baylor, but that's funny. Yeah.
So, yeah, I maybe went out with 30. different girls. My freshman what was your purpose then? What were you just to have fun or what was going on?
Well, I mean, I I wanted a girlfriend really bad. And again because you wanted to get married or just wanted a girlfriend? Honestly, because I wanted a girlfriend.
Okay. And marriage was not really a thing that I thought about consciously Until my mom gave me a marriage book, Christmas of my junior year in college. I was like, not dating anybody seriously. I was thinking, thanks, Mom. I get it.
You want grandkids. But I read it anyway. And reading that marriage book, it changed my whole perspective. On what marriage was, from the gateway to guilt-free sex to maybe something a lot bigger than that. Which then changed my perspective from what I was looking for in a girlfriend for, like, wow, no, I wanna be married.
And so then instead of looking for a playmate, I thought I I want to look for a teammate. And it just so happened that while I was trying so hard to get all these other girls to fall for me, which if anybody's watching the video, they can see that was a that was a long shot and it didn't happen, meanwhile I was develop I had this great friendship. with this girl named Julie. And so I come back to Baylor second semester of junior year, and I'm like, teammate. Yeah.
And I always thought she was cute, and suddenly she became gorgeous, and she agreed to date me seriously. Yeah, and we did it because we wanted to get married. Let me ask you this: how can couples build that kind of relationship and also direction? To aim toward a mission in their dating and then in their marriage?
Well, I think it begins with first, and in my book, I give like 10 what we call DTP talks. You've heard of the DTR talk, right? Define the relationship.
Well, the DTP talk is: why don't you define the person first? And one of those DTP talks, defining the person, is. What sense of calling do they have on their life already? And I had a calling on my life. Before I knew I wanted to be married, I knew I wanted to go into the entertainment business.
And I wanted to I had very specific ideas about that. Am I doing that now today? No, but I did for several years in the Christian music industry. But I think that Julie liked that. That I didn't, I wasn't just getting a business degree.
I wanted to work somewhere. Yeah, you had a business.
Meanwhile, I mean, I could see that she had a missions mindset too. She didn't have something quite as specific as that. But to answer your question, it starts with. the data actually having a sense of calling on their life already. And then, as they date and they meet someone and they're like, Oh, that like if I if I was to date somebody that knew they were called to foreign missions.
Yeah, that calling doesn't I'm not I'm not that doesn't work. Yeah, we had that actual thing rise up in our relationship. We started off as friends, and I think you are endorse that approach. Because I figured, like, what's the worst? I get a friend out of this deal.
But there was, at one point before we got married, my wife said, I really feel called to the mission field. And I had to say, I don't feel called. I don't even know what that means. But if God tells me to do something, I will do it down the road. I mean, I'm not going to resist whatever he has to say.
So go back to the friendship thing and talk about the importance of laying that foundation of being a friend. Yeah, well, because whenever I'm dating, thinking, well, are we going to get married? Are we going to get married?
Well, is this the person I'm supposed to marry? Am I going to marry them? Where are you living? You're trying to live in the future and you can't live in the future. And so We separate the goal and the purpose of dating.
And the goal, yes, is marriage. In fact, if you look in the definition of friends' first dating, we say the goal is a life-giving, lifelong marriage.
So that's the goal. But that's not the purpose. The purpose of dating is growing a friendship. that might get you there. And again, you said you did this.
It sounds like intentionally. Julie and I did this. unintentionally. But bottom line, we grew this friendship and it's like once the friendship like kind of caught fire. In fact, we'd say and we it felt like falling in love, but really we more or less grew in love.
Because we had this friendship that was just so close, so connected, even coming here today for this broadcast. my wife and I laughed over two or three Stupid, silly. If you would have been in the car with us, you probably wouldn't exactly. Ben Exactly on the same page, but that's the friendship we have.
So when you can encourage them, yeah, no, the focus is not: Are you going to get married? Is this a person going to marry? Are you going to marry? No, the focus is: how is that friendship working?
Well, you know, we had a lot of miscommunications again on the last date. Mm. That's facts that you need to focus on. Or, man. We had this hard conversation the other day and I thought about what she said.
And I changed my mind. I think she's right. In fact, that's really wise. I see, whoa, that's facts you want to focus on. You want to move forward with that.
Let me ask you: you have a story about this. It's kind of funny. Because you said you dated 30 girls and girls. Freshman year in college. You did mention in the book one girl that broke your heart.
So you brought this up. It's not me.
So everybody, don't get mad at me. But you call her Danielle. I'm sure you've changed her name. But what did she do?
Well, she didn't do anything. But I came sophomore year thinking, let's do that again. Let's go out with a bunch of different girls. And when I say go out with 30 different girls, I don't mean a dating relationship. I mean like we went on a date or two or three dates.
But it was just like that. But that said. I come my software year, going to do the same thing. And I fall hard for this girl named Danielle. I mean, well, not really, but that's what we're calling her.
I mean, I'm just head over heels. And at the same time, I could clearly perceive she is. Not that into me. And I said, God, how did this happen? And I distinctly felt God say, Oh, so you want my opinion now?
Mm. And I was like I struggle with self-righteousness there, just saying, I was like, want your opinion now. Do I need to remind you that I waited till I got to a school where I could meet Christian girls before I ever dated at all? And we did good Christian things. I wanted to find out their testimony.
There was no speaking in tongues. There was no laying on of hands. I went through how righteously and well I did it. And when I was done with my no little diatribe, I was like... Are you saying you wanted me to like ask Like, pray like, Lord, should I ask Danielle out?
He's lied to me. Yes.
So you would say what you learned was to go to the Lord with everything. Absolutely. And not just, it's not about following the rules. It's not, I mean, yes, you want to follow God's law, but it's about the relationship. And I'm like, hey, God, I got this.
I got all these rules of I'm I'm obeying all your rules here. And all the while God's like, no, I want to be a part of this. And so, yeah, that really rocked me. And I didn't go out with as many girls as my sophomore year. That's good.
John, that's good.
So, Michael, I go back to my dating years and there is this big nebulous God's will. And that has some effect here to what you're talking about. Because did you pray, Lord, should I ask this person out? Should I ask this person out for marriage? How does the greater God's will uh understanding affect our dating?
Well, I I like to think of it like having three legs to the stool. Uh well by the way, let's let's back up first and say what most people base knowing God's will on in dating, and that's Feelings. You know, I just sense, I knew God told me. But I think let's back that up with: yes, seeking him in prayer. Yes, being in His Word, But then also seeking community with believers.
Those are the three commitments that you really need to have: the commitment to knowing God's word, seeking Him in prayer, and pursuing community with the believers.
So that then, when I have these feelings for this girl, and when I pray, I sense God, like, yeah. In fact, I'll tell you what happened junior year, after coming back from reading that book, I was like, God. Um Do you think Julie and I should date seriously? Actually, I felt like God said. If you wanted to date Julie seriously, I'd be pleased with that.
And I said Please, because we're gonna get married? And I felt like he said, No, I'm just saying, I mean, if you wanted to date, you know, take your relationship to the next level, that that would that would be nice. Nice because we're gonna get married. I don't feel like he said. I feel like I just had the green light to move forward.
But then that third thing that so many people neglect. is that community with believers.
So when it comes to looking at community, the best story that I tell in my book, this is probably the best story I tell in my book. I live with the same three guys, sophomore, junior, senior year, and college. But my freshman year, one of my roommates had dated Julie seriously. Not just like I was doing, going out with all those girls, but like as a girlfriend. And she broke up with them.
And then they went out again as boyfriend, girlfriend, and she broke up with them again. Junior year I'm not sure how Over her, he is. I really don't know. It's not a point of conversation I have with this roommate. But uh I decided that January, after reading that book that my mom gave me and looking at Julie and thinking, hey, I got a teammate.
I'm like, I talked to her about let's date seriously. But then I'm like, how am I going to tell my roommates? How am I going to tell them? Yancey and Pete say great. My college pastors say great.
How are my roommates going to affirm this? And lo and behold, One of my roommates comes into the room. not the one that dated her, and he said, Hey, were you Julie have you, Julie, ever thought about dating seriously? Hmm. I was like, uh.
Ah I it I died. Julie who? I mean, I felt like Bob Newhart. Like, I was just fumbling all over myself. And he goes, well, Stuart Craig and I were talking and we just felt like you guys get along so well.
And Greg just said he'd really hate for his past relationship with Julie to stand in the way of you guys getting together. I mean Gentlemen, I felt the Shekinah glory of the Lord shine down into that room. I never could have imagined that blessing. Yeah.
And there it was, all three of my roommates, including the one that dated in the past, like, you go, guy. And I know when I share that story that that is what the reader wants. And they want that kind of affirmation, as opposed to just, well, I just saw her across the room, and the Lord told me. In ancient Greek, That you know, and and I'm not dis well, I actually am kind of discounting that, but I mean, for every person that believes the Lord told me. And there's happily married today.
There's somebody else that believes the Lord told me and they're divorced. And for every one of those, there's someone that believe the Lord told me and they never got married. And for every one of those, there's someone that believe the Lord told me and they never actually t spoke to each other. You have to be careful about the voices you listen to and not let the feelings drive what's going on. Let's just consider that maybe there's this other guy that has access to your soul, the one who shall not be named.
And maybe he. comes across like an angel of light. And maybe he can make you think that He's the Lord. and that he's identified this right person.
So just again, the three legs. Yes, seek God in prayer, pursue community with believers, and know his word. And when those come together, it's beautiful. Let me ask you about cohabiting, because that's a big issue in the church today. Where, you know, the idea is if we can just kind of test-drive this relationship, see if we can live in the same room.
day after day and All those things that go with that. The data on it is very bad. That's the most critical component of this. I don't recall exactly the number, but it's a high percentage of couples that don't survive that to make it into marriage.
Now, you might be saying, well, that proves the point then. There's something binding about marriage that is not binding about cohabitation. And that's the big difference: that cohabitation can break apart because I get up and I don't feel like being engaged with you anymore, being involved with you anymore. Whereas marriage, you know, there's a commitment there that's so critical that even though I don't like being here right now, I'm married to you. I got to figure it out.
And that's a bond that goes beyond cohabitation, which is probably why so many cohabitors don't make it. Yeah.
You know, it's an entirely different mindset. It's the try before you buy a mindset, which is so different from what I, the decision I made, the decision you gentlemen made when you're like. I'm giving my life to you. I'm pledging my life to you. I'm going to love, honor, and serve you however I can.
Why in your 20s does it feel so logical and so mature, though, to try this out? Because it does, I mean, It does look like it makes sense. Like, how, why would I want, like, we wouldn't do it with a roommate. I'm going to commit to living with you for the rest of my life. No, we're going to, we'll see how this works.
Um, But the reality is, even if you get along with someone really well for five years, It doesn't mean you're going to get along with them really well for your lifetime. Many married people do that.
So, what is the difference between cohabiting for five years before you marry versus just getting married and being married five years? You really have to have a sense of commitment. And again, that's one of the things we talk about in the book: is not so much like, oh, let's move in together and let's see if this works, but no, you want to find someone who already has shown that they can commit. Because when you hear about their work situation, they're committed. When you see the friends that they hang out with, they're committed.
They aren't bouncing from church to church or young adult group to young adult group, they're committed. And it is that quality. that makes a marriage last. It is not how well you mesh together. Because you we all three at this table and you listening know several couples That are very happily married, that have so little in common, but they just make it work.
and other couples that like, you know, they di they split apart and you're so surprised 'cause they seem Just perfect.
So I understand it. It looks like it makes sense to move in together. But you really test the relationship by seeing, will this person wait?
Well, but and the most important thing is coming back to what must I do to honor God in this relationship, in every relationship. And I think in my 20s, that's what I began to realize. It's back to what you said at the very beginning. Did you ask me about dating her? I mean, did you ask me about marrying her?
I mean, that's what it is. And then you've got to curtail that appetite until you find that person that will. Be the potential mate, and then behave yourself beforehand.
So I just feel like that's part of honoring the Lord. And then He honors you and blesses you for doing that. And maybe not like you think. This is not the prosperity gospel, right? But it's just, no.
When I obey, I am going to be blessed. Probably not like I thought with. mi one million dollars, but There is a blessing. There's a peace. There's a joy.
Aaron Powell. You know, Michael, as you were speaking, I was thinking about a mindset that we have. And in that try it before you buy it mindset of living together, it seems like there might be this mindset of, there's a reason. There's another reason. Oh, and when they do that, you know, I really am thinking, you know, I'm filling my bucket with reasons that this isn't gonna work out.
Whereas when you're married, The mindset is, I got to figure this out. You think that might be part of some of the challenges? 100%. Absolutely. What does it mean to be emotionally healthy in Christ so that You can do this in a God-honoring way.
Emotionally healthy in crisis, that's big. I mean, what does that mean? Confidence in Him? Peace in you. Uh you're not acting like a squirrel, I mean, you're not.
You mean like being my freshman year? Yeah, maybe you like your freshman year. I don't want to say it that way. But, you know, you're just moving around. And, you know, I just, as we're talking, I'm just talking about those, again, 20s, maybe 30s-something now because people are marrying a little later.
But it's just that maturity, just settling in.
So you do know what you're wanting. A, you do know you want to get married. You don't want to do this life single.
So the point is begin to act on that. I mean, you're now an adult. You've got to think through these things so that you're not acting like a child and behaving like a child, but you're thinking through. What's my responsibility? Am I emotionally mature in Christ?
Wow. That is a good question for a 20-something. And if not, how do I get there? Yeah.
Well, I look at that in my relationship with Julie. If Julie and I. Would have dated freshman year. Like, not actually, we did go out, but not when my roommate was dating her seriously, but. If we would have dated seriously my freshman year, it would have been probably the same train wreck that my roommate encountered dating her.
and it wouldn't have been her. It would have been me. Because I told you I showed up at college like I want a girlfriend. But I got these guy friends. that Really centered me.
They loved the Lord. They held me accountable. And it wasn't just holding accountable, obeying the rules, but like, no, just like we're together working to, so that's a huge part of that, that maturity. That I see so often young adults lacking. And I'll talk about the guys specifically, just because, for obvious reasons, I'm usually talking to the young adult guys individually.
And I'm just like, man, you aren't plugged into a church. You're not really known by anybody. You're sharing these deep, dark secrets with me and you're telling me your best friends don't know those things. That's emotional maturity when you have that kind of community that is around you. And it is that community that then made what would have been a terrible decision freshman year.
Let's date seriously, Julie, to being a really great decision junior year, because I knew even if things don't work out with Julie, Yancy, Pete, Fred, Greg, Stewart, my college pastor, Craig, I'm all right with them. I'm good with them. Uh but also you know being disciplined about being with the with the Lord. being disciplined about spending time with him. not as an obligation, Well, I mean, maybe as an obligation, just like John, do you do you have to be disciplined about spending time with your wife?
Jim, do you have to be disciplined or has it just kinda happened? Just Naturally, especially with your travel schedule. I think that was a trick question. I think so.
So, you know, how do you encourage young people to take? That first step in the preparation for marriage. If somebody's hearing this today, going, okay, I haven't really been thinking about it. I'm at Baylor. I've dated 30 women my freshman year.
I mean, just roll the clock back. What would the old you have heard that would have gone, okay, I got to change what I'm doing?
Well, if any. Huge endeavor requires going to class, talking to experts, on-the-job training, I guess, experience, if you want to say it, and reading books. And so I would say to you, if you're like, I want to do this right. Number one, you don't have to buy a marriage book. You can buy my book.
It's actually a dating book. But really, Seriously, read Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas. Read Love and Respect by Emerson Egridge. That is the meat of how to do it, right?
So, reading books, go to classes. What if? Young adult guy in let's say you're 30. What if you went to a marriage seminar? And people are like, well, we're your spouse.
And you're like, well, actually, I'm just trying to learn things ahead of time. And what if those. One of those married couples had a phone with the number in it of a single girl that they were like, oh my word, she needs to meet the.
Now, I'm joking a little bit, but seriously, do some online things.
So go to class and talk to experts. Who are the experts? We call them rock stars around Future Marriage University, but people that have been married 30 plus years. That when you look at their marriage, you're like... I want that.
I want what they have, and that I want what they have.
Well, take them out to coffee. Find out, you know, how did they get together? What mistakes and smart things did they do? And then And here's the irony: getting the real life experience, usually people think that has to be dating experience. Like, I guess I gotta go out with 30 different girls.
No, that's like experience getting along with your roommates, that's experience getting along at work, that's experience making sacrifices at your church so this girl can go on this mission trip because you and your small group sent her. That's the kind of experience. No. Not experience between the sheets. Experience above the sheets where you will live the vast majority of your married life.
But learning in those those contexts of how to have You know, healthy relationships.
Well, we've covered it, and now you got to get the book because it'll cover more. But, Michael, thanks so much for being with us today. Again, thank you. And for those listening, I hope you feel equipped to further develop your relationship with your significant other, whatever stage you're in. Marriage is such an effective way for us to get closer to God and further the kingdom of God.
It is worth the commitment to invest in dating and marriage. And if you're married already, I hope you'll share this with your single friends and family members. Michael's book is such a helpful resource for young people. It's called Date Like You Know What You're Doing. We have copies for you here at Focus on the Family.
And when you make a gift of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Because of your donations, we're able to help strengthen hundreds of thousands of marriages every year.
So be a part of that, and I hope you'll make a financial gift today. Yeah, donate. and get your copy of the book when you call 800, the letter A and the word family. 800-232-6459 or donate and get the details when you click the links in the show notes. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Bailey.
I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us.
And it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at Refocus with JimDaily.com. Uh
