Hi, this is Jim Daly. We've enjoyed spending time with you this year, helping strengthen your marriage, your parenting, and your walk with Jesus Christ. If you've been blessed by this ministry, can you pay it forward by donating to Focus on the Family before the end of the year? Thanks to our $8 million match, your giving will have twice the impact. Call 800A Family or donate at focusonthefamily.com/slash family.
If a deduction is important to you for your 2025 income tax return and you're concerned about the recent Postal Service rule change for postmarks, consider making your donation online or giving us a call. The walled city was like heaven with the pearly gates, only they were much more golden then. And the angels were above that and they were dancing and they were glittering gold. And then it was shifted morphed to the mountains. And the mountains even were like even more beautiful than any mountain range that I've ever seen anywhere.
That's Pam Farrell sharing just a bit of her incredible out-of-this-world experience on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. She joins us along with John Burke, and I'm John Fuller. Thank you for joining us for another of our best of 2025 episodes. John, I'm really excited about this program we're about to share, and I think people are going to enjoy it. John Burke has been here a few times with such breathtaking accounts of people who have had near-death experiences and really a phenomenal way to approach those things, to categorize them.
We'll hear more from him in a moment. But I've just always been taken by that. His wonderful book, Imagine Heaven, made a big difference in Gene and I's life. I mean, we just were captivated by it. And we also learned one of our popular guests and good friend, Pam Farrell, had an experience herself.
And we know that we had to bring John and Pam together and kind of dialogue about that experience and get John's expertise on what it is. What happened? I'm so excited to dig into this story. And it's just, again, one example of thousands, literally hundreds of thousands of examples of where people have touched that perimeter of heaven and been able to come back and then explain it. This is so good.
Yeah, we live in a world where we think this is it. And the truth is, no, there's a whole lot more beyond this. And John Burke, just by way of background, John founded Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. And you mentioned his book, Imagine Heaven, that sold over a million copies and continues to be a bestseller. Pam Farrell is a speaker and author, and as you said, she's been here a number of times as well.
She and Bill, her husband, typically speak to relational issues and concerns and well-being, but she's captured her story in a book called Glimpse of God's Glory: One Woman's Near-Death Experience. You can learn more about our guests and their books at the website. We've got the link in the show notes. John Pam, welcome back to Focus. It's always good to see you.
Thank you. Such an honor and privilege to be with you all. Yeah, great to be back. Yeah, it's fun. Let me ask this of you, John, first before we start to unpack, Pam, your story.
You've written Imagine Heaven, Imagine the God of Heaven, which is the follow-up, an additional excellent resource. But just lay the Christian perspective on what we call near-death experience. Just give us that quick tutorial on it and what you've experienced. Yeah, so I think they are testimonies from God of the reality of heaven and hell and God's reality. the triune God of the Bible.
And that's what I'm trying to show in my writing. And Imagine Heaven, I'm showing how. When you look at the millions of people, and it's millions, who have had a 2019 study reported by the European Academy of Neurology across 35 countries. Found that 5% of the population of all those countries has had a near-death experience when they were near clinical death.
Well, I think what I've appreciated when we've talked in times past is just for the Christian, and I would say for the viewer and listener right now, just leave your mind open for a little while and just say, Lord, show me. Let me hear this conversation. And I think that's what we have. We have, we line up on one side saying, even to the extreme that this is somehow demonic. Or the other side, which is where you've written, this is insight.
We're looking into something that we don't know.
Well, and it's important to realize that what people report Is not necessarily the same as how they interpret what they report. Which is your distinction. That's very critical. That's why it took me 35 years of researching thousands of them to understand all these things. That someone, so in Imagine Heaven, I trace like 40 commonalities.
Of these experiences that people report, and showing how they all align with the expectation of the afterlife in scripture. And what you have to understand is someone may just have a few of those. You know, they leave their body, they feel awful. all these new senses, not five senses, but more like 50 senses. Maybe they meet people deceased on the other side, and then they come back.
Well Whether you're an atheist or a believer in Jesus or a Buddhist or a Muslim, you can interpret that a million different ways. But if you put all the commonalities together, It's this beautiful picture. of the reality of the life to come. As many say, it is more real than this life. They feel more alive than they've ever felt.
And the presence of Jesus is the highlight of it all. In addition to that, you have said in the past that those consistencies do point to scriptural references. Oh, absolutely. And that's one of the great things you've done in your book.
So, Pam, let me turn to you. Welcome in. Thank you. We want to dive into that story that you had. You had a health scare that landed you in the hospital.
So, paint the picture for us and what took place. Yeah.
So, it started off with. I had diabetes and 1.5, which is kind of a fragile diabetes, hard to like manage and hard to medicate. And I went to an endocrinologist and she gave me some new meds, but they were supply chain issues.
So I couldn't take them on this trip that I was going on to speak for creatives in Texas. And on the way to Texas, somehow I thought I had hurt my shoulder and I was in excruciating pain. And so when I landed, my sweet mentee, she's like helping me drag all my things to the car. And she's like, you need to go to the doctor. And I'm like, no, no, I'll just cut it out.
I just need some, you know, pain, over-the-counter stuff.
So I took various over-the-counter things and I was in pain more and more. And then, so I called Bill. I said, okay, pick me up as close to the gate as you can. I mean, I literally can't even pick up my backpack. Bill's your husband.
Yes, my husband, Bill. And so. He caught me. I was like crying as I stepped out. He's like, You need to get to the doctor.
I'm like, Let me just go to sleep tonight and tomorrow morning, first thing. And that physician gave me stronger painkillers. And then he happened to take like an x-ray. And he called back and he's like, You broke your rib. That's why you're in so much pain.
And then, because I had broken my rib and I was in so much pain, my sugar elevated like crazy. And all the over-the-counter meds, plus the new med that he had given me, totally shut down my digestive system. And so I became toxic. And so, on Sunday that year, it was just two years ago, it was hot, but I had five blankets on me. I couldn't get warm.
And I Grabbed my heart as he walked in and I said, I think I'm having a heart attack, Bill. And my dad died of a heart attack at 62. And so it caught his attention. He's like, taking you to the ER right now. Five minutes later, we were at the best hospital in town.
And the two doctors that were on call, one was a specialist in diabetes, the other was a specialist in heart. And so that diabetic specialist said, oh, I know what's happening here. It's a DKA, which is like a really long way to say you're going to have a diabetic coma. If we don't halt this, you could die. And so they put me in a medically induced coma to try to save my life.
All I remember is. The doctor said, Pam, you need to slow down your breathing. I'm like, I can't. That's the last thing I remember is yelling at the doctor. But then.
The peace of God. That passes all understanding had surrounded me. And so I had this overwhelming peace. And then, as I stepped into what I call a glimpse of God's glory, the heavenlies, I saw a picture of. You know, Jesus was wrapped around me, and people always say, Did you see Jesus?
I said, No, he wrapped me up in his presence, and it was fully peaceful, it was fully joyful, it was fully full of love, hope, beauty, like everything you can think of. And I could see the gates of heaven, how you picture it when you read the word. And there were angels, there's angels of all kinds, and they were. every shape and size and ethnicity and were filled with glitter, like the kind of shining glitter you can't even make in this world. And the angels were dancing before Jesus.
And I was asking Jesus, okay, so is like, am I like dead? Is this heaven? Like, what's going on here? And we were communicating, but not with words, but rather his mind, with my mind. And then the angels would like kind of morph after this beautiful dancing would occur.
They would morph and it turned into mountaintops with rushing rivers of gold. And I'm like, what's up with this mountaintop thing? What are these rivers of gold? It looks like people that I love are scooping up all the gold. And I couldn't tell by their faces.
I could tell by the way I felt about those that I loved. And he's like, Pam, every day for the past decade at 3.20, you've prayed Ephesians 3.20 that God would do exceedingly abundantly beyond all you can ask, think, dream, or feel. I'm showing you.
So, what prayer looks like on my side is that. You said that quickly. I want to make sure listeners, viewers catch that at 3:20 p.m. I do, and every day I pray. That God would do exceedingly abundantly beyond all we can ask, think, dream, or feel.
Ephesians 3:20. And towards the end of my time there, I said, okay, so I am so happy to stay here. It is beautiful, it is incredible. But God, I also know that I have two grandsons. That are ready to be born in two months.
And I have seven grandkids altogether then. I would love to pour into their life. But not my will, but yours be done. And just then, Jesus said, okay, so you've been on the outside, the gates have not opened for you. It is not your time, Pam.
I want you to go back. I have more for you to do. And just then, boom, my eyes opened. I was in the ICU by bells and whistles that I was connected to, like were going off. The nurse ran in.
And Bill had been sent home about three in the morning.
So my nurse ran in, and I'm on a ventilator, and I see this whiteboard over in the corner with a pen.
So she brought it over, and I wrote, Thanks. Heart, happy face, and I put an arrow towards her, and she started crying. She's like, Nobody ever thanks us. And in my head, I'm like, What's wrong with people? You save people's lives every day, and nobody ever thanks you.
And just then, Bill walked in. He's like, You're back, you're all the way back, you're writing, and you're bossing people around. You're back. I love it. A little bit of humor.
I love it. John, I could see your eyes and the intensity. This is all the questions I want to ask you. And so I think there, you've done this for thousands of people, talking with them about those experiences. You come from that engineering background.
You were agnostic. But speak to Pam's experience, and as you have interviewed other near-death experienced people, the spiritual connection to that. What are we hearing? What are you doing?
So, interestingly, did you. You went into the coma. And you were instantly there at the gates of heaven? I was. And in the whole heaven experience, I just felt like I was home.
Yeah.
It's interesting. Dr. Mary Neal, who I also interviewed, said she died underwater in a kayak 30 minutes later. Oh, I remember her story. Yeah, yeah.
So she said Jesus was, as soon as she said, God, your will be done, she physically felt Jesus holding her. Surrounding her. Enveloping her. And I ask, how did you know it was Jesus? And she said, it's like if I saw my husband in the grocery store, I don't have to ask, who are you?
Or are you my husband? It's like, I just knew. That's something. John, in that way, I mean, the critics who will say, some doctors, in fact, will say, well, this might just be a near-death situation where our brain is excreting certain hormones in order to help us cope with the neurotransmitters flooding your brain. Hit some of that.
Talk about what you've done in research to combat that and keep it more on a spiritual plane.
Well, yeah, in the new book, In Imagine the God of Heaven, chapter two, I talk about science skeptics and NDEs. And I go through because there are lots of alternate explanations other than what. people like Pam typically say, which is, I was more alive than I've ever been in a place more real than this. This is the shadow, that's the real thing. That's common.
That's common. So that's the simple explanation. You know, there's a scientific principle called Occam's razor, which is, you know, in a complexity of options, go with the simplest explanation.
Well, that's the simplest explanation, but there are lots of alternatives. Oxygen deprivation to the brain, anoxia, something called fighter pilot syndrome, where they get a narrow tunnel and there's a bright light at the end, and they say, Well, see, that's a near-death experience. But interestingly, so some go through a tunnel to this place, but she was just there, and so was Don Piper. He was just there. And others, they go out of our atmosphere and accompanied by angels through outer space.
It's wild.
So, for me, you know, I put 10 points of evidence in this chapter too, but just three of them real quick. One is people often do see they're in a spiritual body, just like Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 15. Which he says is buried in brokenness but is raised in duname. That's the word we get dynamite, raised in power. And these new powers of the spiritual body are thought-to-thought, heart-to-heart, perfect communication, eyesight that's telescopic.
You can see for thousands of miles. I mean, and experiencing sensations of even how things grow, a connectedness. Everything's beautiful. Like. If you picture a pastoral scene, it would be the most beautiful painting you've ever, ever seen.
I mostly saw the gates of glory and experienced him. But anything I looked at, whether it was like the angels or whether it was the mountains, they all were the most amazing beauty. Like you can't even describe the colors.
So this is the mountains. Is this a walled city?
So the walled city was like heaven with the pearly gates, only they were much more golden then. And the angels were above that and they were glittering gold. And then it was shifted and morphed to the mountains. And the mountains even were like... We're right here in Colorado Springs.
I mean, these are beautiful mountains. They were even more beautiful than any mountain range that I've ever seen anywhere with the rushing golden rivers.
So I think that God can't help himself. It's just going to be beautiful. You know, at the end here, I mean, this is so much to say, Ken. People are going, what? But when Gene and I read your book, John, particularly, both of them, in fact, the thing that it did for us, both practically, like intellectually, but also emotionally, is almost like a preparation.
Yeah.
And I remember at the end of reading that, Just feeling like the way I want to go into this is yahoo, not fearful. No. And, you know, again, we as Christians, we sometimes behave like we're not entirely sure. And some of that is understandable. I mean, we've not, many of us have not had that experience, Pam, that you've had.
And I think in that context, with so many people that you have interviewed, You have to be going, wow. This is just a transition. Like you just said a moment ago, this is the shadow. What's to come is the for real. I mean, what they've commonly said to me is, I was alive and then I was more alive.
Yes. Like, I don't, there wasn't death. Jesus said, God is not the God of the dead, He's the God of the living. And yet we somehow picture the life to come a little bit less than this. It's not going to be less.
Right. And Jesus says that I'm the way, the truth, and the life. And shortly after that, I went to a conference and they wanted me to share my experience. And I did that. And a friend of mine said, I just picked up this little book.
It's by an author that seems to really know what he's talking about, Pam, John Burke.
So the first book that I read, wanting God's theology of what had just happened to me, was Imagine Heaven by John. And I've since given that to so many people who found comfort when they got bad news about, you know, a terminal illness, or maybe they've walked somebody through to heaven and they wanted to know, why did my mom reach up and say, do you see them? You know, Why did it seem like they could see a glimpse of God's glory at the end of their days? And John's book has been a huge comfort to many people through some really hard times. It's given them a glimpse of God's glory.
That's what God's glory. That's what we fell in love with. And John, you know, don't let these accolades go to your head. But let me say this. You know, every year we measure the impact focus has had.
Last year, for that 12-month period, we had about 193,000 people make a decision for Christ. But in that context, John, as a pastor who has done this now, you came from that engineering agnostic place. What is the pitch to the non-believer where you used to be and now where you're no longer, because you have seen this and heard this so consistently.
so vibrantly I know you don't fear the next step. No. And speak to that non-believer. Jim, there is so much evidence, if evidence is really what you want. And I didn't even get into it, but verifiable observations.
So, what I was saying is when people are out of their bodies, they can see what's happening in their resuscitation. I interviewed a cardiologist who said, I started interviewing these patients. And they described the resuscitation I did in a way that they couldn't possibly have known. I could have used the recording to teach other physicians how to do resuscitation. Huh.
Okay, that's one. Second. When people blind from birth have a near-death experience, they can see. And they report seeing things like the light of heaven. And we're talking about consistent reports of blind people and sighted people that the light of heaven comes out of everything and it's not like light on earth.
It's love and it's life. And they know it and feel it. They see it and experience it. But a blind person wouldn't have heard that. And that's what John says in Revelation 21.
There's no sun and moon in heaven, for the glory of God is its light, and the Lamb, Jesus, is its lamp, and the nations will walk in that light. Yeah, John, in that respect. This feeling, you know, so many people that don't believe in Jesus have sometimes really, you know, a bad perception or perspective about the church, and I was treated bad by Christians once. Speak specifically to them that God loves them. God loves you.
And cares about you, and we know that as Christians, sometimes we don't demonstrate it to those non-believers attitudinally. But just touch on that aspect of it as you've talked to these people. The love of God is something we cannot comprehend. Yeah, and I mean, Pam could tell you firsthand, I'm sure, but what they commonly say is just what she said. There aren't enough.
Adjectives. Imagine standing in the ocean, and the best human love is like waves gently lapping against your knees. And then here comes God's love, and it's a tsunami that just washes away all fear, all concern, all worry. One of the things that I was kind of shocked at how many near-death experiencers told me is that in Jesus' presence, They said, you know, I know it wasn't true, but I felt like I was the only, like his only child, like the only one he loved. Yeah, I was wrapped in him.
And I knew that he was in charge of the whole world and charge of all of heaven, and all of heaven was worshiping him. But it felt like I was his only girl and I had his full attention. And he was ministering to my deepest needs that I didn't even know that I had. And when he allowed me to come back to this earth, the first verse that he gave me in my quiet time was, You have delivered me from death, even my feet from stumbling, to walk before God in the light of life. And I thought that phrase, light of life, that's what Transitions.
It's here on earth. If you want to know it, it's in heaven because he created heaven. It is who he is: light and life. Yeah.
What a fascinating conversation we've had today with Pam Farrell and John Burke. And I trust that this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly has encouraged you to think about heaven and to grab on to that hope that we have in Christ. Gene and I really love John Burke's content. His research and the stories he shares paint such a beautiful picture of what we can look forward to in heaven. And that should be exciting to all of us as Christians.
It reminds me of 1 Corinthians 2:9, where Paul writes, What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him. Yeah, and then to hear Pam's personal testimony really just kind of brought it all together for me. Yeah, I'm so glad we could bring these two together for this conversation. Their energy and excitement was palpable. And it's easy to see why this made our best of 2025 programs.
And let me remind you, folks. Focus on the Family is here for you. If you've never given your life to Jesus Christ, we'd love to talk with you about how you do that and how you make that important decision. We have many resources available for you, like our online article, Coming Home, which will explain what it means to accept Christ. You'll learn about God's love and grace and the steps you can take to become part of His family.
We also have a bundle of the two books we talked about today: John Burke's best-selling book, Imagine Heaven, and Pam's personal account called Glimpse of God's Glory. You can get that bundle only through us here at Focus on the Family. And we'd like to send that to you for a donation of any amount today, and no amount is too small. It all adds up and helps. And when you contribute to the work we do here at Focus on the Family, you're partnering with us and helping people like Amy, who wrote to tell us this.
I just had to reach out and say thank you for today's program. I was sitting in my driveway this morning, supposed to be on my way to work, but I couldn't move. I was in tears as God spoke straight to my heart through your message. It was exactly what I needed to remind me that I am not alone, that God hasn't left me, and that I can trust Him as I wait on His plan. Thank you for being the voice he used to give me hope today.
I love that. And Amy is just one of many who turn to Focus on the Family each and every day. Over the past 12 months, more than 970,000 people have told us Focus on the Family has helped them grow stronger in their faith. I mean, that's almost a million people. Big number.
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And tomorrow, you're going to hear how understanding your childhood experiences really can make an impact on your marriage. You know, reactivity, you know, we think of our nervous system going into fight or flight. I had to realize, hey, like when I'm angry, like what's underneath there? And usually there's an unmet need that you can link back to childhood. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
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