God is at work and He's calling His people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs. truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope.
Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com. Look at Proverbs 4:23. It says, Guard your heart. for from it flow the wellsprings of life.
Our heart is kind of all we have. You know, our values and our passions, our emotions, our thoughts, where we're going in life. And that's inside our skin. That's our ultimate boundary, is what's inside of us. That's Dr.
John Townsend. He's our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We're going to be talking about boundaries, particularly in marriage today. And I'm John Fuller. John, this is such an important topic.
You know, the family is the foundation to culture. And healthy families deliver a healthy culture. And I think that's one of the great difficulties we have right now is for the culture to understand the importance of family and commitment in marriage and raising your children so they're healthy human beings as part. Of what we're trying to do here each and every day at Focus on the Family. We're doing it in that Christian context, and that's important to us.
But our guest today has written a wonderful book with his colleague, Dr. John Townsend, along with Dr. Henry Cloud. And this is one of those books that every married couple should have because it helps us to better understand the choices that we're making or contributing to breaking those loving relationships. And Boundaries in Marriage, this is deep stuff that will help you in such a great way.
And Dr. Townsend is a psychologist and best-selling author, and he's written a number of books, obviously. This one, Boundaries in Marriage, understanding the choices that make or break loving relationships. Check it out. We've got details in the show notes.
Dr. Townsend, welcome to Focus on the Family. Welcome back. Glad to be here. Always good to have you.
Let's get into the content: boundaries and marriage. Let's start with what is a boundary.
Well, simply put, it's a property line. It's whatever denotes the difference between what you are responsible for and own what you're not.
Now, in our world, think about your home. Your home, if you went to your county seat and you have an apartment or a house or a condo, whatever, it would say here's where the line ends and begins. And what's inside that home? If you've got a plumbing problem, it's your problem.
Now, I want to be a good neighbor. I love my neighbors. And if they have a plumbing problem, I want to be there for them. But ultimately, their plumbing problem is going to be theirs, and mine's going to be mine. And the way to look at it is: look at Proverbs 4:23.
It says, Guard your heart, for from it flow the wellsprings of life. Our heart is kind of all we have. You know, our values and our passions and emotions, our thoughts, where we're going in life. And that's inside our skin. That's our ultimate boundary, is what's inside of us.
No, that's so, so good. You had a a story that illustrates this. I think the names you used are Steve and Stephanie. What was hurting their marriage?
Well, The same things that hurt a lot of marriages, Jim.
Sometimes it's just good old-fashioned pride and selfishness.
Sometimes it's immaturity where a person hasn't had a lot of occasion to grow.
Sometimes it's not knowing oneself. But in this case, he. kind of Was a combination of those. His interest, he was a nice guy, but interested in his career, his feelings, what's interested to him. And she was sort of on the side periphery of his mind.
Well, She had desires and dreams that wish God gave her too about career and this sort of thing. But he wasn't really engaged in that. If it didn't have to do with him and his betterment, then she was kind of left out. And it was really hard and sad for her.
So that's what I had to point out to him. And one of the reasons they came to therapy with me was because she had to set a limit. And the limit was, we're going to counseling. And when I got to him and started querying the history and all this, yeah, he did care about her, of course. But he had a focus on himself that wasn't a mature one.
Because mature people, They want to take care of themselves, but they deeply love and sacrifice for others. And that's what a lot of our work was with him. Yeah, why are boundaries important? It sounds almost anthetical to marriage, like we become one and, you know, boundaries. are not appropriate for people becoming one.
Right. But why are they important? And and it's confusing sometimes because you look at Genesis that they be one flesh. You look at Ephesians 5, where it says they are one and all this, and people say, well, what's this stuff of me having a me?
Well, here's the thing, the Bible doesn't just teach oneness. It also teaches that you've got to be a complete person to come in and be that one. In other words, it requires a healthy two. To make the one. Because thinking about all the passages you read about completeness, telling us, you know, maturity.
We are called to be complete individuals, able to love and follow God, know our passion, know where we're going in life. Those two people are supposed to be on the path to individual maturity, and they make a great marriage when they become one. Your problem becomes when a person who is not complete. Not mature, not growing in the Lord in all career and life and values. When that person has not done that work and he or she marries somebody else to complete them, like that old Tom Cruise movie, You Complete.
Well, that's not what the Bible says or the science says. And then all of a sudden the dynamic is: you're supposed to be my strength because I'm not strong. You're supposed to be good at math because I'm not. You're supposed to be the lover because I'm not a loving person. And the other person ends up being worn out and doesn't feel valued.
Yeah, carrying the load. Carrying the load. But it is really common. I mean, I think I have said that, that, you know, the extrovert marries the introvert, the night owl, the morning person. I mean, part of this is humorous, but we are, it seems, at the 80-20 rule.
We know there's always exceptions. But it seems like we're attracted to people that we have blank spots. And that is appealing to us because we don't have that, right? Is that a fair? But that's different than being mature.
and complete in your character, your makeup. When you're attracted if you're an extrovert, you're attracted to a thinking, deep thinking introvert, which would be my case with my wife. But in that context, is that generally true or is that something that can distort the boundaries? I'm not sure it's eighty twenty. But it could be.
But the difference is the things about the fundamental aspects of character. versus the styles that you appreciate.
So, the extrovert may be a very mature extrovert, but goes, it's sure interesting to have you to be a reflective person and vice versa.
Well, that's great. But when a person says, let's think of some foundation of character development, like being able to make an attachment and be vulnerable and bring out emotions in others. If somebody says, oh, you're the people person, I'll be the one that makes the money or I'm the task person, that's not just appreciation of a style. That's the fundamental building blocks of what creates a mature person. If you're saying, you're going to do the part that I don't like to do, then you got a problem.
And in that context, that's where that becomes a heavy weight for that. that one in the in the marriage. It does because I think God built us, Jim, to all along for completeness. And so when you're looking for completeness, like she's going to finish this for me, you know, she has good boundaries and I don't have good boundaries.
So she'll be the strong one. I'll be the easy to get along with Disneyland parent. And so they long for completeness, but they don't want to do the work or afraid of it. And the other person gets burdened with that.
Well, I've got to be the math person. I've got to be the financial person. I've got to be the relational person. And the person's not saying, how do I learn from you? Which would be good.
They're saying, you're better at that than me, so I don't have to. Trevor Burrus: You have literally counseled thousands of couples and talked to them about boundaries. What are some of the unhealthy examples of misunderstanding boundaries that you've encountered?
Well, let me give you kind of a triad of what the biggest elements of a good marriage are and then tell you what the stories are.
Okay. Then you see what goes wrong. The three things that make a good, healthy marriage, especially with boundaries, is first, obviously, love, you know, the sacrificial love we're supposed to have, the Bible says. But the second one is freedom. I've got to be able to make free choices, not compliant choices.
I've got to be able to say, I want to do this or I don't want to do this, and you not try to control me or gaslight me or whatever. That's the freedom aspect. Love, freedom. And the third one is responsibility. I'm supposed to shoulder my weight and I'm supposed to do my job in the marriage to love and provide and whatever my talents are, but I need to be responsible for my behavior with you.
Then things go very well when all three people are seriously committed to love, freedom, and responsibility. Yeah. Let's get out of the equation because boundary problems happen when somebody says, You're not free, you do it my way. I want you to be this, do this, pick this place. And it's not like.
Let's talk about it and go back and forth. When there's a lack of freedom, and we know how important freedom is, Galatians 5 says that's why Christ died for us. When a person doesn't feel free, all of a sudden they feel controlled. And how do you love somebody when you feel controlled by them? And so one example would be the um In this case, it goes both ways gender-wise, but the controlling husband who says that I make the decisions here and you don't have input, well, then she's not free.
That's a problem. And she's going to feel disheartened. She's going to feel lack of love.
Now you've got some problems. And then next you move to responsibility.
Now that's different than the freedom and controlling part. It's the part where everybody's supposed to shoulder their burden. If you've got somebody who's going to be a Peter Pan and says, oh, I don't like that. I'm a free person. I'm impulsive.
And you do all the heavy lifting because I want to have fun. All of a sudden, you got another problem because a person starts to feel like, hey, I'm a parent and I'm married to a little kid here, and I've got to clean up after your messes.
So, those are two examples where the three things of love, responsibility, and freedom get violated. And then somebody, sooner or later, it's not the person who's controlling, they don't tend to call. A therapist, and it's not the person who's the impulse person, the free spirit, it's the person who's having to take the weight. And they call because they're in pain. And then that's when they need help.
No, that's really interesting. And I, you know, digging into that control side, that freedom side or lack thereof, I mean, that's such a common thing. I think, too, the observation I have is These people aren't even aware, perhaps, of how they're doing that or why they're doing that. What creates the need to control. Speak to that, is it insecurity or what drives a person in that context to overcontrol their spouse?
It can be a number of things, but the one that you come up with a lot is that they don't have self-control. The Bible says self-control is great. It's one of the fruit of the Spirit. And since they don't have self-control over their behavior and their thoughts and their mind, they try to control the other person so that it works.
So I'll give you an example. I was working with a couple where The wife was artistic, and he was sort of more of the mechanical, and this can be a great marriage. But when she would be you know, have a creative thought and he wanted to talk to her about something like the news or politics or whatever, and she wanted to be creative, he would get upset with her 'cause she wasn't following what he wanted. And I said, So what's the problem here? He said, Well, she does doesn't listen to me, my interest in news and politics.
And I said, That's the wrong answer. She's not perfect, but she's not doing anything wrong to talk about creativity sorts of things. Your problem is not that she does that, the problem is that you can't stop what your line of thought is and listen to her. And so instead of you having the self-control to say, you know, I'll get to politics later when she's done, because we have a partnership and love. That's a self-control issue.
I'll just put my desires on the back burner a bit and have some self-control. You try to control her so she'll talk the way you want her to. And the lights came on. I said, you got your control problems that you don't have self-control. Wow.
And patience. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. John Townsend. We're talking about boundaries in marriage. He's written a really wonderful, rich, deep resource covering this very topic.
Check it out online. We've got the link in the show notes below. And you know, Dr. Townsend, your book has so many different stories and illustrations. Kind of an extreme one was a woman who was married to a husband, Regina Enley.
He was an alcoholic for, I think, in the book, you said, 19 years.
So she had kind of put up with this. And I can see where she'd be afraid about losing the relationship. But one day she kind of found her voice. It didn't go like she might have wanted it to, but talk about. Kind of the boundary setting in that kind of extreme circumstance.
Yeah, and it took her a long time, John, as you mentioned, to get the courage. And the way the courage came was from her relationship with God and some really healthy, loving other people that supported her. She couldn't do it on her own. She was too terrified and thought she couldn't live without him and this sort of thing.
So What she did first was she tried the patience route. And if you ever worked with an addict, You need more than patience because he just kind of stayed out of control and not really nice to her. But finally, as you say, she got her voice because she began praying and saying, God, just. I'm not happy, the kids aren't happy. I want to be a loving wife, but I don't know what to do.
She had no skills. And then she found a good support group of Christian folks that had read a lot of Bounder's material and said, We will help you because we see that some things are going on, and there's no truth and love in your marriage, and we know that you want to be that way.
So she didn't start off with anything major. She just said, um. This is a problem, and I can't stop you. Boundaries aren't about stopping the other person, then you're becoming controlling. But it's about we can't abide with this.
And so I won't you get some help. Let's lead some people together, go to AA. And he fought it and fought it and fought it. And she went and got professional help.
Sometimes you have to do this where the person says, if you won't go to marriage counseling, I'll go by myself. I'll talk to the marriage counselor. by myself, with you not in the room. And a lot of times the spouse will go, I want to be in on that conversation. You're talking about me, and they'll go, but in this case, he wouldn't.
But she got great help, great church, great small groups and all that. And she finally said, um As long as you continue drinking and you don't get any help, this isn't working for us. And I may have to move to another room in the house or something like that. And he blew up and said, no, I'm just leaving. And that was it, and for then.
And he went and got an apartment because he didn't have a problem and she was the problem in all this. But the magical moment happened when She stuck to it and she cried, and she wanted to take him back because she missed him and all this. He started missing her. He missed the love and the warmth and the kids and the great times. And like the prodigal son wakes up in the pigpen, he was miserable and knew he was.
And so he kind of grumblingly said, I want to come back. To her credit, she said, not till we get help. Because so many couples in these extreme cases, they'll say, okay, we're back together and everything's great. But the person's character hasn't changed and their addiction hasn't changed. She said, I've got some counsel that says we need a coach who will tell us when we're ready.
And you're going to see your counselor, I'll see mine, we'll see ours. It was very complicated, but they did it. And when the coach tells us you're both healthy enough, then you do a trial. He didn't like that either. But she said, It's not going to work otherwise.
You'll still be in the apartment. And so he came in, did the work, found out where the alcoholism came from, understood his only family origin, his own issues. Changed, got sad, repented, grieved over things, got new skills, got new friends. And the coach finally said, Yeah, you tried it for three months and it went well. I think you guys are okay, and they're okay.
Wow, that's so good. But it takes that sometimes. But it works. John, you know, when we do a program like this, we have to say if the spouse is in a physically or deeply emotional abusive situation, separation is a good thing to go to a place of safety. And I want to make sure people hear that because some, particularly women, will feel like we miss the mark if we don't.
express that need to get the wife and the kids to a safe place that the husband's out of control.
So I would assume you agree with that. Absolutely, Jim. You know, when you look in the Bible, there's a lot to be said In reading about marriages, reading what the Bible says applies to marriage. For example, that passage I mentioned, Proverbs 4:23, guard your heart.
Well, if somebody's being abused, they've got to guard their heart. If the only way to guard their heart and their kids or whatever is to separate, they have to do it. Another one is to shake the dust off your sandals sometimes. Another is let your yes be yes, your no be no.
So there's biblical, all kinds of biblical mandates for that. But here's the thing that's so important to know. There are separations in marriage and there are structured separations. Those are very, very different and have to be understood. Separation might be, well, this is not working.
We're all both miserable. You just go over here and maybe in time you'll be better.
Well Time alone never fixed a character. You have to have time plus people that give you the truth, plus people that love you, a process and skills. It's got by time plus relationship plus truth in the growth process. That's what a structured separation is. Structured separations is: here's your goals.
You tend to be financially irresponsible. I had a wife that she just made it and he made a lot of money and she spent a lot of money and she didn't think anything was wrong with that. And so they had to have a separation because he was going bankrupt. And so, but it wasn't like, well, just go to your corners and then maybe one day you'll be nice. It's not how it happens.
Nobody grows that way. She had to be with a financial planner, which she hated. She didn't like that. But she got it. It was important to her.
And she had to have counseling. She had to find what it was that money meant to her. And he had his own jobs about being codependent and being compliant and all that. They had their tasks of growth. that were led by people who were mature.
And then they came back together on a time level with structure. A structured separation, you've got a much better chance of the marriage, getting the marriage you never thought you could have. But separation alone just doesn't do it. Right. And you advocate for that in terms of separation can be a healthy thing to get your bearings.
Even the story you just shared, where the alcoholic husband came to his senses, you're giving them a prodigal moment, you know, that they can wake up because you're depriving them of what they've enjoyed, the good things, the godly things. And then they... Get they come to their senses. And he realizes it wasn't just that she was the problem, she was some problem, but he realized he had a problem and now you're on the way. Yeah.
Let me, for the young people, the 20, 30-somethings that are considering marriage, and maybe for those of us that have been married a while and we haven't figured this out yet, you said in the book, you cannot skip out on maturity by marrying into it. Wow, that is a statement for everybody. It kind of goes back to that idea that you complete me, and because I'm immature, but you're mature, so we'll make this work. But speak to that idea. What happens when couples try to cover for each other's weaknesses in an unhealthy way?
Well, somebody regresses and gets more immature in. Finances or relationships or responsibilities or child parenting in all the areas of life, and somebody gets too much. of the burden. And they start to feel drained and resentful. Then, where's the love?
Where's the intimacy? Where's the, I'm so glad God brought you to me? It's sort of like, I'm living with somebody who's basically glad that I'm mature. And then And then you got a mess. Yeah.
I mean, it's like emotional freeloading. Yes. I mean, I'm sorry to say it that way, but it's so true. That's true. John, right near the end here, and we're going to come back next time, continue the discussion to help married couples do better.
That's the goal. It's not to, you know, unleash this conflict, but there is a goal in doing that, and it is a healthier marriage, a better marriage. But I'm thinking of the spouse who's married to that controlling spouse. It could be the husband, it could be the wife, both are capable of trying to exert control. It's kind of their operating system.
And she's heard this today or he's heard this today and he's going, oh my goodness, that's our problem. That's one of our problems. How does that spouse who is being controlled in an unhealthy way Today Broach this subject with the controlling spouse to say, Honey, I heard something today. How do you do that? Yeah, that's the question, and there are answers for that.
And, you know, there's different kinds of control too, Jim. There's aggressive control, you're going to do this, the threatening, scary stuff. But now we're learning so much about a thing called gaslighting, where you try to make them feel like they're crazy and you're the sane one, and they question themselves. It's all kinds of things. That's a manipulative, indirect control, whichever it is.
When that spouse understands somebody's trying to control me.
well, first off, realize all human beings are control freaks. Ever since the fall. No, not at all. Not me. I'm sorry.
It's just universal. We tried to control God and everybody. But some of us have a bigger problem with that than others. Um but Generally speaking, that spouse who is really miserable in position, sometimes her first response is to blow up. I call it ignoring zap.
I put up with this for 20 years, and then she becomes Godzilla, and it's not pretty. That didn't help anybody. And the second one is: I'm going to put a boundary on you.
Well, that's impossible. You can only set a boundary on you and hope the other person will respond.
So we get to the sort of like beginning, I'm going to get out of my unhappiness ones that don't work. But the best one is to do what the Bible says. You go to Matthew 18. And where Jesus said, No, if your brother sins against you, go to him. And then it talks about, you know, speaking the truth and love to each other and be vulnerable and all this.
And sometimes, if a person is not a severe person, Controlling boundary person, they'll go, you know, I've gotten that feedback before. I'm sorry, how'd that affect you? That's where the every as a psychologist, I tend to look at issues as either normal, mild, moderate, severe. A mild problem Person who's controlling will go, yeah, I do that, and I've heard that I do that, I'm sorry, and what can I do different? Mm-hmm.
But then the Bible says if they don't respond to you. Bring two or three witnesses, and then sooner or later there is going to be a separation. That's the whole Matthew 18 thing about discipline.
So you have to up the ante and escalate depending on whether the person's normal, mild, moderate, severe.
So the vulnerability didn't work and saying, honey, I This is hard for me. It's hard. I feel controlled. And if he says, well, it's your problem, then you have to do other things. You have to say, then you have to go to a warning.
Well, I'm going to have to take some action on this. I'm not going to control you, but I'm really hurting. And if you don't hear my pain and my vulnerability, I've got to do something else. And then you go get help. And then you finally say, there's going to have to be a consequence.
You don't just throw it at them. And we'll talk about consequences at some point.
So it starts with vulnerability and tenderness, and then they have to move to tougher ways. Let me squeeze one more in because I think I want to end on a high note, which is how boundaries help couples experience more freedom in their marriages. It sounds oxymoronic because you're saying how boundaries. help you achieve freedom. Uh explain that.
It does sound oxymoronic, Jim. But, as we know, there can be no intimate love without freedom. A slave can't be in love. Mm. And so when you don't think you're free to have your own mind, make your decisions.
Have your own opinions because you're walking on eggshells, you're living in fear. And 1 John tells us: there is no fear in love. They're oil and water.
So That's why you have to have freedom so that you're not afraid anymore. And so, when you and your spouse work it through, you both go, We can agree and disagree, and I still love you. We'll work it out whether you want to go out for a Chinese or Mexican night or whether we buy a house or not, whatever. But I want to hear your side of it. And so many couples just say, Oh, we're so different.
And this is the ending on a positive, Jim. I work with these couples and they'll work on these issues and they'll make progress. And they'll finally say, We're still very different. We're not like clones. And I love it that she is so out there and kind of creative, or maybe she's the engineer, and vice versa.
And I appreciate it. And we disagree all the time, and it's great. And we'll have these really direct talks about parenting, in-laws, and money and sex. And then we have these, and they're kind of sometimes a little agitated. And then we go have lunch because it's not personal and because both people are free and loved.
That feels healthy. Doesn't that feel healthy? Dr. John Townsend, we're going to come back, like I said, next time. But what a great resource you've created here.
I want to mention a couple of things. One is our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives, it is an amazing program. We have locations around the country now where you can come. It's typically a four-day experience, and it has a post-two-year 82% success rate right now. Can I say something?
I've sent people to that. Yeah, no. It is miraculous. Yeah, and it is. It's an amazing experience for couples who are struggling.
And, you know, about 30, maybe 40% have already got divorce papers drafted. And this is it. They'll say, this is the last notch in the rope for us. And we say, come on, let's do it. And again, 82% save rate.
And it's just reconnecting with the right things that attracted you in the beginning and how to learn how you behave and better ways to behave in your marriage, not to trigger each other. And it's a very successful program.
So get a hold of us if you're desperate, you're in that spot, my marriage isn't working. Let's work on it together. That's why we're here at Focus on the Family. Another great tool is Boundaries in Marriage by Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.
And this is deep. Good stuff. I mean, I would read this together. Gene and I will read this together. And even being married 39 years, there's so much more that we can learn to build each other up and not tear each other down.
So get a hold of us. If you can make a gift of any amount, we'll send it as our way of saying thank you. If you can't afford it, we'll trust others are going to cover the cost. Just get in touch with us and let us know you need this book. Yeah, the starting point would be the links in the show notes or give us a call: 800, the letter A and the word family.
John, thanks again for being with us. We'll come back tomorrow and continue the discussion. And thank you for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the discussion and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. God is at work and He's calling His people to rise in truth.
Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com.
