God is at work and He's calling His people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs. truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope.
Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com. We must, as Christians, continue to stand up in the public square, speak truth in love. But address these areas where we see the demise of our society because we love and we're broken. four human beings who we see suffering from the consequences of horrible ideas.
Well, that's Gabe Lyons, our guest last time, addressing our need to engage others and to share the love of Christ in our culture. We're continuing the conversation today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller. John, last time we had a great discussion with our guests, reflecting on where the culture is and how we can reach it for the cause of Christ. That's what our goal is as Christians, to persuade, to give information to, to ask the right questions, to help people think through what it is they believe. But it can be difficult, and we're certainly seeing that with what happened last week with Charlie Kirk, who was doing this on campuses effectively.
He was a 31-year-old man, married, two young children, and somebody decided his voice should be silenced, and they shot him and killed him. And now we're facing the repercussions of that. What is it we need to do as Christians in this moment? Do we respond out of our anger? Do we respond with the heart of Christ, knowing these people as Christ hung on the cross, which our guest mentioned yesterday and said, forgive them, for they know not what they do?
That is superhuman. I'd say that's only inspired by the Holy Spirit in us as Christians that can do that. And I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion today. Yeah, Gabe Lyons and Brand Hansen are back with us remotely for the conversation. And Gabe is the founder of Think, that's T-H-I-N-Q, a groundbreaking media company dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith and culture and speaking to the next generation.
He's deeply invested in young people in his work. Brand Hansen is a return guest as well. He's a syndicated radio host and author of the book Unoffendable, How Just One Change Can Make All of Life Better. And you can get that book from us here at the ministry. We've got the link in the show notes.
Brent and Gabe, welcome back for day two of this program. Thank you for being with us. Thank you. It's good to be here. Hey, Gabe, I'll point this to you.
Gen Zers, there was a poll that showed that 56% of Gen Z believes political violence is never justified, which means 44% of Gen Zers. Are saying political violence is justified. What's your reaction to that, Gabe? I mean, it seems a little breathtaking. It is.
It's an alarming stat. I read that 93% of baby boomers, juxtaposed to that, do believe political violence is wrong. And so you can just see a world view shift in the next generation. Part of that has been the softening of our words and understanding what words mean. We've been told this generation for over a decade that speech is violence and that if you hear something that hurts you or harms you, that perhaps you need to leave and be in what they call a safe space.
All of this built around trying to protect a generation that should be growing up in a world where they learn how to debate their ideas and have conversation around these ideas, much like we saw Charlie Kirk trying to do. They've grown up being told if you don't like an idea, you run from it. And if you don't like the person stating that idea, they're your enemy. And their words are just as violent as what we've always known violence to be, something that's an act of physical violence. And so we see just in the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
where this plays out, where the alleged shooter, a young man, as we keep learning more, there's the potential that it's literally about him thinking his violence was meeting Charlie's word violence.
So we must get clear on these words that speech is not violence. And the next generation is learning that, but they're going to have to relearn that because they've been indoctrinated with false beliefs about how to engage a public square that don't work in a civil society. You know, Brant, one of the things that Charlie Kirk talked about is the need to communicate with one another. People who oppose each other, when you talk about things, when you meet at the microphone, like he was doing, it actually is a good thing because persuasion happens, ideas are talked about, dialogue occurs. There's something in the way we're wired as human beings, made in God's image, that relationship matters, that we need this kind of connection in order to get to a better place.
But there are people in the culture, as Gabe is saying, who can't tolerate an opinion that's opposed to mine. And the way we're going to deal with it is with violence or threats of violence. And it's just, wow, how do human beings that coexist, you know, all those nice little bonds? Bumper stickers, how do we actually coexist when you can't speak what you think? And that's unhealthy.
That is extremely unhealthy. I can't control all of that. I think it's important for all of us to realize: I can identify problems ideologically in our culture that are virulent and horrible. But I have to think of my own life. It's very true that relationship is actually Pretty much the only thing, honestly, that convinces people.
I mean, that's to refer to Jonathan Haidt again. He talks about the elephant and the rider analogy where he's like, the elephant. you know, thinks it's or the elephant's actually in control. We think we're in control. But the elephant is our emotions and our intuitions.
and the writer is reason. And he says, We all like to think we're reasonable people, but it's really emotional stuff. And you can't change that emotional stuff with just facts and figures. They won't listen to you, as a general rule. But, he said, and this is where the hopeful part starts.
He said the only thing that gets that elephant to start to turn is relationships. Mm. That's it. And it's interesting the reactions to Charlie Kirk that I've seen from people who are ideologically opposed to the things that he believed, but they're universally like, but this guy was really cool, they're saying. I met him, I hung out with him, he was actually a really great guy.
I think that's interesting to hear that the people who actually met him, when we keep people human in front of us, it's a different deal.
So when you deal with your neighbors, they might have a very difficult time. They might say, I've heard horrible things about Christians, for instance, but Dog on it. They're pretty cool down the street. They actually love me. It's it's a it's the about the only way to actually change people's minds.
You know, it's uh interesting. Uh Rob Kirkpatrick, our executive producer, sent me a a meme of a guy who was not highly educated, had never owned a suit. And it's him doing a little TikTok in his look like his backyard, just saying, you know what? He's standing in a suit and he's saying, you know what, my wife We're making a little more money now and my wife bought me this suit. I've never owned a suit.
But I'm going to go to church on Sunday, and I'm going to go to church on Sunday because of Charlie Kirk. And I don't know that guy well, but he seemed to stand for things that are right. And then the phone drops, and he uses an explicative and then corrects himself, which was keeping with his world understanding. And he just set it up and he said, I feel more dignity today than I used to feel. That's what the gospel delivers.
Yeah, I'm hearing stories, Jim, of friends. I just saw a text from a friend who said, Hey, I haven't been in a church in 20 years, I'm a gay man. I didn't know I'd be welcome in a church. I'm kind of afraid of going to the church, but the the activities of these last week have led me to want to step foot in church again and re-explore what a relationship with God looks like. I mean, that's the power of the Spirit moving through a tragic, awful event.
to begin to turn people's hearts to at least pay attention. Like maybe there's something different I haven't heard before. Maybe there's a better way. And you think about Charlie Kirk. I mean, some people had followed him and listened to him, but a lot of people wouldn't have known Anything about what Charlie Kirk talked about, but you think about how many more, tens of millions of people now, are listening to him.
communicate his world view. And also, one of the things I love, Jim, about his mission is he said, look, my number one mission is to win as many people to Jesus as we can. That's what every Christian should be doing, is trying to win one to Christ. But the second part of that mission is to make sure it's possible. For people to come to Christ, which was speaking to his concern and care for religious liberty and the protection that we need in our society to be able to talk freely about these ideas.
And so those are the encouraging signs. On the back of something that's been awful and horrific, where I think we can draw hope and see the Spirit of God's moving. I'm talking to pastors today who said their services were powerful. Hacked this past Sunday. More and more people, young people, because Erica Kirk got on, right?
And that was the one thing she said. She said, find a church this weekend and go. And I think your testimony of this gentleman doing that is someone literally just inviting him, saying, Hey, go just check it out. Give Jesus a second chance. Take a look at what he claims and how that might impact your life positively.
Boy, that's so good and so right. Brant, you wrote the book Uneffendable. In fact, you talk about one thing you can change that'll help you. What was your goal there with that promise?
Well, to talk about it's honestly it's discipleship. It's actually loving your enemies, and the idea that you don't cling to your anger frees you. to be a different sort of person.
So that kind of has to do with your last question, what Gabe was talking about. I would add: some people are absolutely equipped and called and gifted to go campus to campus and engage people one after the other. A lot of people are not. That's just not going to be their thing. The question is, are you going to actually love your enemies?
to me, like and and so the biggest That we could do positively for churches to make disciples of Jesus, teaching them to obey the things He's commanded. That was like, that's the whole thing. But if we don't actually actively teach people how to love your enemy, how do I pray for people who are driving me crazy? You could do this. You could say on Tuesday night, 6:30, come to the church.
We're going to teach you how to love your enemies. We're going to teach you how to forgive people who don't deserve it. Like, that's actually making disciples. And I feel like we haven't talked about that a whole lot. And so, but the best thing for the world that we could do would be to have a bunch of people who are becoming more like Jesus, and their personalities are being transformed by actually learning how to do the stuff that Jesus told us to do.
Yeah, it's amazing, as a sermonile, you're right. I've never heard somebody preach on that. That sermon. That's basic Jesus stuff, right?
So that's absolutely confounding to me. And people. Say, well, I'm going to go to heaven when I die.
Okay, that's cool. But Jesus is giving us a way to live right now. Yeah. Like this eternal life begins now, and he wants to shape us.
So teach people how to forgive your enemies, and we'll see people like growing up. And it's something we can actually do. Yeah, it's so true. You know, we just released Truth Rising. It's a great effort.
It's free. We're not charging for people to stream it. And there's a four-part study that goes with it to help people learn these areas. The timing of this, to me, is just God-ordained. I mean, we started that project two years ago, and for it to hit right now with everything swirling in the culture is just incredible timing.
In addition to that, I want to pick up on what both of you talked about a moment ago. You know, another thing that we do is RVL Ray Vanderlaund Discipleship, and we did That the World May Know. I mean, it is so much content. Of course, Ray is an expert in Judaism and kind of reads the scripture through Jewish eyes and helps Westerners better understand what is being said. And I'm going to have the team link to a free episode.
They're like 15-minute devotionals. And I do them every morning. And the other morning we read or listened to one called The Coals. And in there, he's talking about Romans 12, where Jesus is talking about heaping burning coals on your enemy by loving them and doing the things we've been talking about.
So many of us in the West interpret that as retribution. Yeah, heap coals on those, burning coals on their head. And Ray is saying, no. Burning coals represented God's presence. What that scripture is talking about is treat people correctly, kindly, with grace and truth.
And in so doing, you are heaping God's presence onto them. And I know, Gabe, as you've gone about, you and I have talked about engaging the LGBTQ community, that's the spiritual dynamic of what's being done, to show kindness, to show dialogue, to talk with them, hopefully ask questions, as you said, that are going to make them think a little differently about why we say and do what we do. And in so doing, you're heaping burning coals on them, the presence of God onto them. They can't walk away unchanged from that discussion. They may still disagree with you, but they'll have a little different attitude, most likely, if the Holy Spirit.
I know his working in that.
So speak to that, Gabe. I mean, it's a beautiful way to understand scripture.
Well, and I think Paul is such a good example of all of this. I mean, here's someone as an apostle who goes out and essentially is confronting the ideas of the age. I mean, you think about his famous Smart Hill. Speech that he gives after walking around Athens, likely being confronted with all kinds of wickedness, statues. All kinds of lewdness.
And what is Paul? Is he offended by all of that? Is he offended by the way that the world is living its life? No. He's provoked.
And this is a posture that I think we as Christians must take on in this age: we must be provoked, not offended. We shouldn't be offended by the way sin runs amok in the world. We should be provoked to engage it, to engage its ideologies, to engage the people who we care about because we're broken for how much wickedness and sin is corrupting their life. And here we see in Paul's example, he speaks to them by acknowledging the ideas they've believed in and how the thing that's deep in their heart, the eternity that's set in every person's heart, is pursuing something. It's pursuing a true God, but they've missed it.
And he delivers to them and helps them understand here is who our true God is. And you can't do that. You can't have those conversations if first you're not aware of the dialogue and the current cultural issues and conversations that our friends are having and our kids are having. But once you're aware of that, you then must be provoked to engage it, not to back away, not to avoid. But to engage.
And I think again, when we think about Charlie Kirk's example, that's what he did. He was provoked. He wasn't offended by anything anybody believed. He just wanted to step in and have a conversation. Yeah, that example of Paul, it amazes me how articulate Paul is, how he writes, et cetera.
But they refer to him as a babbler. Who is this babbler in front of us? I'm thinking, wow, if that's the treatment Paul got. That's pretty stern. And I'm feeling energized, and you guys are empowering me.
And so, just on behalf of some listener who perhaps is thinking this, Brant. I want to do what you guys are saying. I don't feel like I'm intellectually equipped. Um I feel like I might get rejected. I can't, I don't know.
I'm just afraid right now of. Maybe even stepping into something that is going to lead to a disagreement, and I can't control it.
So, motivate me. Help me get past that fear.
Well, I'll say this.
Something about Jesus you may not have noticed is he's very relaxed. He knows. He is. He knows how this all ends. He said we can be of good cheer.
Like even in the big picture And something Paul wrote, too, which is really interesting, because His culture was crazy. He ends up losing his life because of what he believes and what he says. It's like. He r he told them Be ready to have a reason when you're asked for the hope that you have. Mm.
Because the culture's nuts, but you're going to be the hopeful ones in the midst of all of this garbage. And he's not denying all the. Chaos that's going on. He's just saying, naturally, people are going to want to know: why are you so hopeful? Like that's really something to me.
Like that's really interesting. I hope I hope that we're people of hope, even in the midst of this stuff, that you have a sense of well-being. regardless of what's happening around you. Because you know That God's character can ultimately be trusted, even if you don't understand all the stuff that's going on.
So I think that's going to increasingly speak to people in ways that are so powerful when we're the non-anxious presence in our neighborhoods and communities. We're the ones who aren't freaking out no matter what. We're not the angry voices. Why are you so hopeful? What's going on?
Can't you see the whole culture is in flames? Oh, yeah, I can see. But I know more. And I know enough to trust the goodness of God. I've learned enough about him in my life to trust him.
I think people are going to be very dialed into that. We need to be ready to have a reason when they ask us for the hope we have. You know, I was so impressed by Erica, Charlie Kirk's widow, just a couple of days after being assassinated, being able to get on TV and talk to the nation. And, I mean, her courage about that. That's the presence of God in someone's life.
And I think, you know, in many ways, even as you hear some of Charlie Kirk's comments, foretelling if something should happen to me, carry on. The Lord will use it. I mean, he almost knew that something could happen to him. And those clips that I've watched where he's referenced that are incredibly encouraging. And here's the difference, Gabe.
You know, as Christians, we are going to eternal life.
Sometimes we feel that this is it, and we act like this is it, and we froth, and we twist, and we get angry, and we don't have that presence of mind to say, Okay, Lord, use my life as you see fit. I mean, think of Charlie's life being ended in the way it has, and what if it does turn into millions, literally of millions of people. being stiffened in their spiritual spine to speak boldly about truth, to love people that seem unlovable. And what an impact his life will have had, even though it only lasted 31 years. I mean, he goes into heaven with, as Erica said, with that martyr's crown.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think, Jim, you're right. I think even that word martyr is important for us to recognize. I mean, this is. I believe in our lifetime for sure, and even in American life, this would be the first Christian martyr that we've witnessed a death like this in front of us and in front of the whole world. Everybody had to watch it.
I mean, it's amazing right now with technology how everybody's exposed. to a person declaring truth. And then being shot down. And that's what I think gripped all of us and makes us sick at our stomach and makes us see evil for what it is in that moment. But he understood.
I've talked to his friends, people close with him who he knew that every day he went on these campuses, his life was in danger. He understood that threat. And yet, this is what it means for somebody who walks with a surrendered spirit to say, I'm going to trust God with my life. I can't add one day to it. I can't take one day away from it.
He knows all. And so, with wisdom, I'll go forward. I'll have security teams. We'll do the work. But I'm just going to trust him.
And I think for all of us, that's a hard thing to do. We don't want to die. But I think what we learn from the example of Jesus, Paul, All of the disciples is that they had a full surrender to the fact that they were going to die and they couldn't add a day to it. And I think when we get that confidence and go, hey, I can't add a day to my life, let me just live with courage and boldness. Let me just speak what God's put on my heart and not compromise that.
Make sure the inside of what I'm feeling in my conscience is matching the outside of my words. I think that's the way in which we have to continue to live.
Well, and that's a really good point. They obviously irritated people because they were killed for what they were saying. The disciples.
So, what they believed, what they expressed, people didn't like it, and they killed them. And that's just part of the Christian conviction. We've got to be prepared. It's not what we want. But again, if the Lord can use it, what an amazing.
service it is to the Lord to be able to reach literally millions of people. Let me ask you, Gabe, you have four questions for engaging culture effectively. Let's hit those quickly right at the end here. What are those four things that we can do to engage culture?
Well, it's very simple. I think we all ask these questions on a lot of other issues, but we don't always apply them to the culture. The first one we ask is: what is wrong? Simple question, what's wrong in the culture? And our response ought to be to stop and confront it.
When we see wickedness, when we see evil, we stop and confront it. We don't put up with it. The second question, though, is what is good? And we need to be just as good to celebrate and cultivate things in our culture that are good. Let's platform them.
Let's put truth forward everywhere we have the opportunity. The third question is to ask, what is missing? And when you have something that's missing in the world, we've got to go create it and we've got to catalyze it. And we do that through our work with our hands, where we invest our dollars, our creativity. We go and create culture to change it, not just condemn it, as Andy Crouch has said.
And then finally, what's confused? And this is where I saw Charlie stepping into this moment. What is confused in our culture? What he would do is clarify and compel people forward. And we're seeing the fruit of that today.
Somebody who clarified and compelled people around confusion to start bringing clarity. Brent, Erica courageously reminded us that for those who love God, all things work together for good. For those who are called according to his purposes. As we're wrapping up, What reminders has God put on your heart to share with us as we've dialogue these last two days? I mean, that's a big catch, but you know, even for Erica to express that right after her husband has been killed, I've often thought that scripture when I've seen people go through things.
But it's it's really rough to deliver that in the moment of despair. It's something you want to share with somebody after there's some healing, I believe. I mean, with my wife experiencing two suicides in her family, we've talked about that. Like, what good could ever come from this? Yet there has been, and it's an amazing thing that the Lord can use.
And I think we're seeing it right before our eyes: that he is using this for good. How would you encapsulate that and give people hope here at the end that we can trust God, that he is worthy of our trust?
Okay, quickly, he told us we can trust him over and over and over and over and over and over in Scripture, and he wouldn't have to do that if he thought, hey, they're not going to struggle with this. Even if we believe at one level, it's at another level we're fearful. Like what's really gonna happen to my family and my kids, my country, my And he's saying, trust me, trust me, trust me, trust me, trust me. And when Jesus says, In this world you'll have troubles, but be of good cheer. I've overcome the world.
It's because he knows the end. He knows the end. Do I actually trust him? the time to actually trust him would be when things are chaotic, right? This is when it actually matters.
And there's a a boat that's going down in Acts, and Paul's on the boat. There's 275 people, it says, on this boat. Everybody's freaking out because they can tell they're all going to die. The boat's going to crash. The captain, the pilot, everybody, they're like, hey, we're going to die.
Paul's not freaking out. And they could have looked at him, and people could look at you and say, Well, you just don't know what's going on. You would be freaking out, too, if you knew what was happening. It's like. Paul's not naïve.
He knows more than they do. He's not lacking information. It's not because he can't watch the news, he hasn't seen the headlines.
Some people will say that you should be freaking out. No, no, no. He knows more because God has already revealed to him that everybody's going to be okay in the end. We do not see the big picture. I have to trust that, but ultimately, I have learned enough.
To say I trust his character. And I think my trust is going to be vindicated in the end. And I think that's where Eric is coming from. I think we can see that. But it's very good to read.
We have to remind ourselves of this because we're forgetting machines, we humans. We forget stuff all the time, but we have to hear this over and over. And I'm thankful for what focus on the family does to continue to bring this message to people over and over and over. We need this because otherwise we forget. just how good God is, and then we start freaking out when we could be relaxed.
And hopeful, even in the midst of utter chaos. Yeah, and I hope again this is about engagement. I was really touched with Erica's comments. that if Charlie would have someday run for president, his number one platform would be to strengthen the American family. I mean, that grabbed me by the throat because we're walking in here every day saying this is foundational to the well-being of the nation, that moms and dads are committed to each other.
They're loving their kids. They're raising their kids in a way that's healthy. I mean, that, it just gave me more inspiration to wake up, come in today and say, okay, let's go for it. Let's save some families today. Let's save a marriage.
Let's help a parent through a child crisis. And that's what we're trying to do each and every day here. Gentlemen, thank you so much. It's a tough topic. I so appreciate both of your perspectives and what you're doing in the culture, respectively, to touch lives, change lives, help people live a more committed, informed.
Gospel message for evangelism and helping.
So, thank you for what you do, and thanks for being with us. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Jim. And I support everything you're saying about the family and the good work you are doing. That's going to be the crucial place where we see the culture turn.
Yeah. And let me add this final thought for the listener and viewer: Charlie recently said in an interview, I want to be remembered for courage, for my faith. The most important thing is my faith. And I hope we'll all remember that as the most important thing. Hebrews 10:23 through 24 says this: Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering.
For he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works. And I'm hopeful that's what we've done these last couple of days. And let's take it forward. Let's do this each and every day with whatever opportunity God puts in our path to encourage others, to help others.
and to be that light for others. And one thing you can do right now that would be, I think, very informative is get a copy of Brant's book, Uneffendable, How Just One Change Can Make All of Life Better with the gift of any amount, a one-time gift or a monthly gift, we'll send it as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Yeah, reach out today and make that contribution and get Brant's book. Also, we have that documentary that we've mentioned, Truth Rising. That's linked in the show notes, as well as the four-part study guide.
Get in touch with us, get equipped, and go out and be beacons of light and hope in this culture. Again, the details are in the program description or call 800, the letter A and the word family. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. God is at work and He's calling His people to rise in truth.
Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs courage. truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit TruthRising.com today.
That's TruthRising.com. Yeah.
