MUSIC Thanks for joining us this week for Family Policy Matters. Abortion is such an emotionally charged topic, a fact that can make it difficult or even impossible for people who disagree to engage in productive conversation.
But our guest today insists we need to talk about it. Jason Thacker is a Senior Fellow and Director of the Research Institute for Family Policy. at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, and he has some ideas on how we can do that well. He joins us to discuss some of what he laid out in a recent article entitled, Flipping the Script in the Abortion Debate, Strengthening the Christian Pro-Life Ethic After Roe.
Jason Thacker, welcome back to Family Policy Matters. Thanks for having me. All right. So first of all, do we really need to talk about this? Is there even a possibility that that conversation will be productive?
Well, that's yes and no in many ways. It's a conversation that needs to be happening because life matters. Human dignity matters. This is a question that Christians have unashamedly been advocating for for decades and generations to say that all life matters because God created us in his very image.
I don't know if it's going to be a productive conversation, but it's nevertheless a conversation we need to have in society because those things matter, but also because our neighbors matter. Engaging in this conversation as we seek to uphold and to protect the dignity of the most vulnerable in our society, which includes children in embryonic stage, children in the prenatal stage, but also children and families moving forward to see families flourishing. So why do you think this issue is so supercharged for so many people?
What is behind that, do you think? Yeah, there's a lot of different theories on exactly why this is such a supercharged issue, but I think one of the key aspects is because as I've written before, abortion kind of functions as the linchpin to much of the sexual revolution. You think of this idea that it's my body, it's my choice, I get to make these type of decisions, whether it's argued on privacy grounds or kind of this idea of individual autonomy, the sense that I am my own person, I get control, no one else can tell me what to do. You see that kind of mentality building out through not only the abortion conversation, but also through much of the sexual revolution with LGBTQ plus issues and so much more. That idea that I get to define my own reality, that I get to define my own truth, rather than seeing that we actually are individuals, yes, but we're also created in and for and by community and that true flourishing isn't found by looking inward, but actually looking outward. As Jesus told us in Matthew 22, to love God and to love our neighbor as ourself.
This other orientation is the whole nature of the Christian life and leads to true human flourishing. Many of us were dismayed to read the Republican national political platform. Do you think that the overturning of Roe v. Wade revealed something new about exactly how resolute Americans and American lawmakers really were about abortion?
I think it did. I was just like yourself, very dismayed at the change to the Republican platform, especially saying that this is merely a state issue. Yes, we want it to be a state issue. We want states to be able to advocate and put forward pro-life policies, pro-life laws to protect the most vulnerable. But also it reveals in many ways kind of the cultural ethos.
There's a political philosopher named Robert George. He talks about how law is never neutral. Policies are never neutral. I think we realize that it's always promoting some vision of the good, but not just in terms of law, but also in terms of culture. For generations, especially young women, but really our entire culture has taught that that sense that I get to be my own person, it's my body, my choice, it's not only true, but that would be good and requisite for true human flourishing. But the Christian ethic tells us it's not.
It's not about me and what I want, but actually about the way that God has created us as individuals with dignity, value and worth, but also to live in relationship with others. Law doesn't just nearly restrain behavior, but it also teaches and promotes some vision of the good, which is why this Dobbs decision in 2022 was a watershed moment. Yes, not only because it pushed that decision back to the states, but also it kind of revealed not only much of what's been going on in terms of our culture, but also how we as Christians need to step into this. No longer can we hide behind this idea of overturning Roe.
We have to do more than that to see true human flourishing throughout our community, seeing policy changes, seeing changes in law, but also seeing changes in our own hearts as we promote a true vision of human flourishing rooted in how God created us in his very image. Are you surprised? And do you think others were surprised to find just how committed to pro-life issues some of our lawmakers were not?
Yes and no. I mean, if you follow much of politics, you realize that politics is a really bad savior, that politicians sometimes tell the truth, not always, not always revealing that, yes, this is a campaign issue for many. But when rubber met the road, we've seen this at the state level. We've seen this at the federal level as well.
It's easy to talk the talk. It's really difficult for many to walk the walk, to really see this as a committed issue that we are going to, even if it's not electorally good for us. Whether it's politically popular to say that life matters, that God has made us in his very image. And while we talk about that from a Christian perspective, there are other people of faith, but other people of no faith at all who say that human dignity matters.
It matters not just when it's electorally kind of feasible or viable, but at all times. So we stand against much of what has been deemed a culture of death, a culture of autonomy, a culture of individuality, this expressive individualism of our day. And to say, actually, let's recapture a true vision of human flourishing for Christians that's rooted in how God made us in his very image. And so it's interesting to watch how this phrase being pro-life became just simply kind of a phrase that people kind of co-opted or people kind of used in order to get elected. But we actually say it's not just about getting elected, but we actually want to pass good policies, good laws, and we want to make sure that the pro-life movement continues to be a holistic movement. It's not just about law and policy, but also about changing hearts and lives. You mentioned the state level efforts, and I know we both know that a lot of the efforts to regulate or restrict abortion on the state level have met really with only limited success and sometimes surprisingly not successful in places we thought that they would be. Are we responsible as citizens for not being as committed as well? I mean, we would love to blame it all on the lawmakers.
I think yes and no. It's one of those things that it kind of depends on the individual, not only their community, but how we present our faith in the public square, how we engage on these issues. I think it's a lot easier to say that we're pro-life in concept or in our worldview or philosophy.
It's much more difficult to put that into practice. And just being reminded that it takes all of us, that all of us have a role in that, from our local churches who for so long have done such great work caring for vulnerable women, caring for vulnerable children. You think of pregnancy resource centers who do often unthink unnoticed work in our communities that's monumental, being able to save children, not only to care for families, to be able to raise them up, to provide needed resources and such.
And so I think for all of us, what this decision really revealed in 2022, but as we've seen so many state initiatives fail, and as you said, many places we thought it would wildly succeed, it reminds me that not only does the law promote a certain vision of good, not only does it restrain certain evil, but it also promotes that vision of the good that's much more than just law. It actually teaches, it informs people, it shapes their minds, it shapes their worldview, it shapes the way that they interact and see their neighbors around them to say that, you know, this child on the womb isn't just a clump of cells. This child in the womb is not just a fetus. That language that we use that I think really matters in this conversation and say, no, that is a child.
That is a human being created in the very image of God. And so it's easy to say one thing, but to do another. And we've seen this in churches even where you have a very pro-life committed congregations where there may be a difficult pregnancy or an unplanned pregnancy happen within that community. You know, how do we wrap our arms around these young women, but especially vulnerable children, to say that your life matters, that we are going to come alongside you because all of life matters. And having that holistic vision of the pro-life movement I think is something that we need to redouble our commitment to in the coming years.
When you're talking about flipping the script, is that what you're talking about? Yeah, and so in the article I try to reference that our language matters, not only in the sense of how we think about things like this isn't a fetus or a clump of cells, but to say this is a human being. But often our categories of pro-life or pro-choice, I know many people who are more pro-life or maybe more pro-choice who don't fall into some of the language that we use about anti-abortion. I get very frustrated when I read a news article referencing myself as an anti-abortion activist or, no, I'm pro-life.
This is what I'm seeking to promote, or this idea of anti-choice or pro-abortion. I think our language matters because, as one philosopher once noted, that our language often needlessly inflames or conceals what we really mean. And to realize that the language we use really matters, that it can be quite dangerous in even dehumanizing the language that we use to talk about our neighbors, but also the language we specifically use to talk about the preborn. I think as we stand up to be pro-life advocates and defenders of the preborn, we need to recognize that abortion is morally evil, that it's deeply dehumanizing to both the mother, obviously the preborn child, but even to our larger society. And I think we need to slow down sometimes in our conversations, especially with our neighbors, our friends, those in our community, to explain what we mean, why we stand on these things, and what is really driving that conversation, much more than just the social media animus and a lot of the politicking of the day, to slow down, to ask the hard questions, and to ask that fundamental question of what does it mean to be human. I think when we get to that question, this whole script, this whole conversation can kind of open up to be quite revealing about what we truly mean when we say that we're pro-life or we're pro-choice. Okay, so dig into that a little bit more. So if we're going to have a conversation with a neighbor or a friend that we know is pro-choice, what are some talking points that we can hope might resonate with them? I think one of the things that we can do in these conversations is to ask questions, to be caring, to be inquisitive, to be asking.
I hear you say this, why do you believe that? What's informing that? What's behind that? What are you scared about? What are you overwhelmed about? I think many, especially young women who face an unplanned pregnancy, they're quite overwhelmed. They don't know if they can do this.
They don't know if they want to proceed with this. And society has told them for so long that that's your choice. That's a mere choice that you have. And I think as Christians, we can say it's not a choice.
That's a human being. To ask that question of what does it mean to be a human being, which I think is really one of the central questions of all of ethics today and all the public policy, is to ask that simple question of what does it mean to be human? And as we dig into that question, asking and addressing those questions, I think we often find a little bit more common ground than we may realize. That when someone says they're pro-choice, it doesn't mean that they're actually pro-abortion. They may just say, well, the woman's choice kind of preempts or it is most important in that conversation. And we can say, no, women, we want you to have control over your own body, but this isn't your own body.
This is a body of another human being created in the very image that you were called to be a mother, despite the circumstances you might find yourself in. And we want to come alongside you and to help you, to help to provide for you, to counsel you, to walk with you through this. But I think a lot of that conversation starts with just asking the simple question of what do you mean by that? I hear you say this.
Can you explain that to me? Help me to understand a little bit, to be caring and kind about the way that we engage one another as we stand on truth, but we also stand on grace. We are both people of truth and grace, not either or. How do we handle a situation where we're having this conversation, but it's clear we're not making much, if any, headway?
How would you deal with that or what suggestions would you have? I think one of the most important things is to get to say, where do you actually disagree? I think often we can immediately kind of put on our, quote, team hat. We can say, you know, I'm pro-life or I'm pro-choice and not actually pressing in to ask, you know, what do we actually disagree on? Getting to some of those fundamental questions. But I think also in this conversation as a pro-life Christian or pro-life advocate to say, what are your options? If you want to have choice in this, did you know that abortion isn't your only choice? That there can be adoption.
There can be a lot of different options that you can pursue. I think often our language betrays us. Often a lot of the cultural conversations betray us to say this is merely a clump of cells. This isn't a human being. But when you see that child, that human being who often, especially in later term pregnancies, looks a lot like you and me to realize this is actually a human being. This is a moral person that is entitled to equal respect and care and protection to say that this isn't just merely a clump of cells. So I think pressing into those conversations, seeing where people actually disagree and then seeking to promote a vision of the good to say, look, I understand your perspective, but have you considered this? Rather than just throwing out some isolated scripture passages, actually stepping into that conversation, pursuing that rich engagement within a robust biblical, theological and philosophical framework, which I try to lay out in this article.
OK, well, we're just about out of time. But before we go, Jason Thacker, where can our listeners go to read your article, flipping the script in the abortion debate and then also to follow all your other good work? Yeah, there's a couple of different places.
You can go to erlc.com. That's where I do a lot of my work, especially as a senior fellow in pro-life and bioethical issues. But you can also go to jasonthacker.com. There's a host of resources to really press into this to say, look, life matters, biblical truth matters, and we want to be able to stand on things as we engage some of the most pressing and challenging questions of the public square today. All right, Jason Thacker, thank you so much for being with us today on Family Policy Matters. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters.
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