Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rust and president of NCE Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. And now here's the host of Family Policy Matters, Tracy DeVett-Griggs. Thanks for joining us this week on Family Policy Matters.
We're continuing a conversation from last week when we were talking with investigative reporter Danny Funt, who has spent years researching and analyzing the effects of sports gambling and has just released a new book entitled Everybody Loses: the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling.
Well, last week, we talked about the Near split-second decision that reversed years of almost universal opposition to sports gambling, and how the networks and league owners just couldn't help themselves when faced with the prospects of an enormous payoff.
Well, Dandy Funt, welcome back to Family Policy Matters. Thank you so much for having me. All right.
So, when we last talked, you had raised concerns about how addicting gambling can be, especially sports gambling, which is instantaneous and right there on your phone. But is it designed to be that way? The industry would never admit that, but that's what I hear from a lot of people, and not just advocates, but also health experts, gamblers of all sorts who have insights into how this business works, even bookmakers who I talk to, the people setting bets and taking bets. And by the way, I'll explain why, but I just want to pause to point out: you know, addiction is the scariest and the worst case scenario here. And the rediction rates, there's a lot of reason to believe they're growing.
But this goes. Goes well beyond people who have a full-blown addiction. There are such a broader pool of people who are getting carried away or feel bad about how much time they're spending betting and how much money they're losing, and even just how it transforms their relationship with sports. And sometimes I think we can think of this as a fringe issue or like that's sad, but that has nothing to do with me or my family or my community. And I think that would be a big mistake.
There's a lot of studies that suggest this is a much more mainstream problem potentially. Just a couple of quick examples. A third of U.S. sports bettors say they felt ashamed after the fact, thinking about how much money they lost. Half of sports bettors say they're not fully honest with friends and family about how much time and money they spend gambling.
So I just wanted to quickly share that because I always want to remind people this is much bigger than the people who sadly have a clip. Clinically diagnosable addiction. But to your question about: is this designed to inspire people to compulsively bet? I'd say yes, no doubt. Both in the types of bets you can place.
I was describing last week how there's a real slot machine effect when you're now able to bet on a minute-by-minute basis, as opposed to betting and then waiting a few hours to see the game play out and if your bet's a winner or a loser. And health experts say that definitely can inspire compulsive behavior if you're in that vortex of just hammering away one bet after another. I also think it leads people to do what's called chasing losses, which is if you lose a bet and then you quickly place another to try to make up the money you lost, that's called chasing. And half of sports bettors admit that they've caught themselves chasing losses, which again is one of the telltale signs of a potential gambling problem. Another thing that they do that's so important to understanding why people get carried away is endless enticements to keep you betting.
You hear about these new customer promotions where they'll say, you know, here's a $500 deposit match or a thousand dollar free bet to get you started. That's a big piece of how they seduce people to sign up in the first place. But they'll then shower you with promotions to egg you on and keep you going, especially if you take a little break. I did a bit, especially when I was writing the book and wanted to have a firsthand understanding of how these products work. And I remember the day my book came out in January, I got a call from FanDuel and I was thinking, oh boy, you know, what do they want to argue with about what they've just read in the book?
It turned out it was a customer service representative from FanDuel saying, Danny, we've noticed it's been a while since you were betting. What can we do to get you back? You know, can we persuade you to get back? Get back on your account and keep betting.
Well, that's interesting.
So, you know what occurs to me too is we're hearing so much these days about how addictive social media is. We're all concerned about this. We're trying to put up safeguards to keep our kids away, but this seems like it's getting ignored. It does. And I'm glad you brought up kids again because that's certainly a very dangerous combination, right?
The fact that people of all ages, but especially kids, struggle with compulsive use of their phones. And now you've added a notoriously compulsive product that takes advantage of something so many of us love, sports. And just marrying those two things is combustible and awfully dangerous. And I've spoken with educators, especially in North Carolina, who just say, you know, this is such a disaster waiting to happen because young people, you know, their brains aren't fully developed, particularly the part of the brain that deals with risk assessment. We know that boys in particular are drawn to risky behaviors.
And that's something that as they grow up, they have an easier time moderating. But you add that, you add attention problems, and the fact that the ability to just be betting constantly while you watch a game seems to feed on that. And then also the Sad fact that gambling problems tend to coincide with other substance abuse. I hear a lot of people who are in recovery for gambling and they also have issues with alcoholism or drug use. And the idea that you might be leading young people down that path is so terrifying and upsetting.
And we don't actually know exactly where that's headed because gambling is what's called a progressive disorder, meaning it can take years for a problem to set in. I just got an email from someone who read my book and was telling me they were fine until they had a big win. And that was a curse for them and so many people because you end up chasing that feeling of that thrill of winning a lot of money. I'll close on this point by saying I asked one of the world's foremost experts on youth problem gambling. A man in Canada named Jeffrey Daravensky.
I asked him about these alarming rates of youth gambling in the U.S. and what that could mean. And he told me exactly what I just said, that it can take years to get a full picture of a gambling problem once someone starts betting at too young an age. And his words just give me a chill and I'll never forget them. He said, God only knows where all that is headed as far as youth gambling.
So I really think there's good reason for educators and other people in power to help kids out because this could get out of hand really quickly.
So let's talk about some of the signs. I know you said last week that really the problem with this and why we don't recognize it maybe as being as big of a problem as it is is because there aren't a lot of signs like there would be if you were say shooting drugs or something. But are there signs? Do we as parents, grandparents, spouses need to be looking for certain red flags?
Well, for one, I don't think kids. And I don't want to sound preachy, but from experts I've spoken with, I don't think it's a good idea for kids to be gambling, period. And parents, unfortunately, at this point, I hear sometimes they think, well, there's a lot worse that my kid could get caught up doing. I'll even facilitate them betting through my account, or I'll take, you know, hey, child, tell me what you want to bet. I'll place your bets for you.
Keep them out of trouble. I guess I could empathize with what makes them think that, but it couldn't be more wrongheaded. I would really discourage parents from facilitating youth gambling. The other thing for all of us that you might want to think about is: are you thinking of it as a way to make money? Because the odds are just so overwhelmingly not in your favor.
If you're deluding yourself to think this is a side hustle or an investment strategy, or you've cracked the code of how to win and this is a chance for you to make money, that's a really irrational thought that's going to cause you. A lot of trouble. And the last thing I'll say, and there's a long list of things to look out for, but if the urge to gamble is in the back of your head and you find that you're thinking about sports or you're watching a game and you just can't get rid of that thought of, gosh, I got to place a bet, that's a bad sign. I used to hear from people in recovery for gambling problems. They would tell me it got to the point where I just couldn't watch sports without placing a bet.
The idea of just sitting down and watching a game for the game's sake sounded just painfully boring. And now I hear that from a lot of people, especially young people, who say, unless I have a bet on the line and skin in the game, I just have no interest in watching sports. It sounds way too dull for me to spend my time that way. And that's pretty scary for your health, but also, you know, on a more sentimental level, the status of sports fandom.
So look out for that as well. There was one sports book, it might have been Bet MGM, that had a very apt slogan, which was, Make. Any game the game. The idea being: if you risk enough money, it's gonna look, if you're a bystander, it's gonna look like they're watching the Super Bowl or Game 7 of the World Series or the final of the college basketball tournament. Because if you've got that much money to worry about, you are gonna be living and dying with every play.
And that's very appealing, especially for people who are bored and trying to spice up time spent alone or just an otherwise dull evening. And I spoke with a marketing expert at FanDuel, and they said exactly that: that it seems from their research, like one of the big reasons people are so eager to gamble is because they're lonely and bored and trying to fill a hole in their life, I guess, and contrive excitement that way. And I, again, I understand why that's so appealing. Who could deny people in a casino look like they're having a lot of fun sometimes, but you can get carried away pretty fast. And again, you know, it's easy for that to get really.
Really overboard and really cause you trouble. Are there ways that we can begin, for those of us that are concerned, are there policies? Are there state laws that we can begin to enact? What about the ads? Is that a good place to start?
Absolutely. In the bigger picture, I'll get into some of those specific reforms, but way too often people feel defeated about this because they say, My state's legalized, the cat's out of the bag. We are where we are. It's very unlikely that the state will revert to prohibition. And so we're stuck with this.
And I think that is way too oversimplified because there's so much middle ground between banning it and legalizing it. And we've seen other countries that have had legal sports betting for longer than the U.S. and they've realized that you can't trust the industry to self-police and you need tighter guardrails. And they've done a lot of things that the U.S. could learn from.
So you're right, advertising is one. In other parts of the world, they don't allow. Allow advertising during games, what they sometimes call whistle-to-whistle. And gosh, I remember watching, I think it was a Charlotte Hornets game, and on the screen in one moment, there were seven gambling ads on the screen, you know, on the court, on the ticker below the game, a watermark on the screen. It just was like to think that it's that in your face, that could definitely change and maybe do some good.
The other thing that I've touched on is education. I just think if we think it's a good idea for there to be health education for kids as young as middle and elementary school and certainly high school and college to teach them the risks of drugs and alcohol, I think you just, how could you not also teach them now about the dangers that can come with gambling? There's a long list that I would just have, I would be remiss if I didn't mention these enticements that I spoke about, I think, last week, dangling free money to lure people to keep betting. That to people just seems so irresponsible when we're talking about something that can be addictive. And they liken it to when tobacco companies used to give out free cigarettes, especially on college campuses.
And how it's hard not to draw that comparison when these sports books are offering what sounds like free money to get you started. It's a long list, but I think it should give us some hope that there's so much that could be done to make this a little bit safer for consumers.
Okay, good advice. We are about out of time. If our listeners enjoyed this conversation, of course, you can go back to last week because we began the discussion then and you can hear more. And of course, you can always go to Danny Funt's new book. It's called Everybody Loses: The Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling.
What an enjoyable conversation, infuriating as well. But thank you so much for joining us today, Danny Funt, on Family Policy Matters. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review. To learn more about NC Family and the work we do to promote and preserve faith and family in North Carolina, visit our website at ncfamily.org.
That's ncfamily.org. And check us out on social media at NC Family Policy. Thanks and may God bless you and your family.
