Is Perfectionism Stealing Your Peace? Faith Chang

Okay, so let's start here. One of the things I loved about you, I still do. Wait, you said loved. When we were dating. Oh, okay. You don't love it anymore? No, I just said I still do. But it was marking because I remember thinking, you have such a high drive for doing whatever it is you're doing the right way, excellently, never settling for even like 93%.

You're like 100. Whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it right and I'm doing with everything I got. But... No, I love that. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.

You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Have you ever thought that you might be like a perfectionist? Yes.

I think it's... And that's a good thing? I think we all can have tendencies of that depending on our past. Oh, so you're going to connect it to your past. I'm just saying that my family, I mean, some of the words were, we are the barons and we are the best. So don't settle for anything unless you are the best.

Don't come home with anything other than a first place. So that tends to drive you and it's always been in the back of my mind. It's not as much now.

I feel like I'm more free from that, but man, it still lingers. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about this topic today.

And you know what? At Family Life Today, I don't think I've ever had a conversation about perfectionism and a word I never heard of, Christian perfection. And so we got Faith Chang with us today.

She wrote a book about this, and I'm guessing, Faith, you're a perfectionist. Would you say that? Yeah. You acted like you didn't want to say that.

Yes. People ask me, what did you write on? And I'm like, I'm writing about this topic. Basically, it's a book for myself. And so... Well, I love the title of it, Peace Over Perfection, because that's part of it for me at least. It's hard to find that contentment and the peace with something I have done because I'm always thinking, how could I have made it better? I can endorse that.

She does not find peace. Yeah. I'm thinking I could have done better. Yeah.

All the time. And I'm like sort of the opposite. I mean, I have the worst high school football game in my life. And my mom's like, you're amazing. I'm like, mom, I was terrible.

You're amazing. And so I didn't have that as much. So talk about how that worked out in your own life. You're a pastor's wife.

You've got four kids. So I mean, all that pressure on you, is this something you deal with every day, every hour? Yeah. So yes, it is something that I deal with every day, even coming into this interview. People keep on joking with me now that I've written it. People that I know, friends, you know, they're like, well, you did write a book on this very thing that you're saying you're struggling with right now as this book comes out. Faith, where did your journey start?

Can you point back? Because I think we all ponder, where did this come from? Why am I such a perfectionist?

That is a really great question. And one of the things that I tried to do in the book was to share how perfectionism doesn't just have one root and one cause. And I think one reason why I wrote it was because a lot of times when I've read about perfectionism addressed, it was so simplistic and kind of like, you just try too hard, you know, and you just got to stop. Maybe it's your personality.

Maybe it's because you're type A personality, so you just got to chill or just stop trying, you know. And that doesn't work, does it? It's basically like telling a perfectionist, you want to really be perfect? Stop being a perfectionist, you know? And so it's like, okay, I can't do this. I can't do that.

I can't do this. And I also can't be a perfectionist. And adding to that, what I wrote about specifically was about spiritual perfectionism, this perfectionism that plays out in our relationship with God. The subtitle says it all, enjoying a good God when you feel you're never good enough. Because you're right, our perfectionism can pour into our walk with God and affect it. And I did what you just said.

Faith, when you were saying that, I was like, that describes the first five or seven years of our marriage. I would continually tell Ann, just relax. What are you getting so uptight about? And I thought I was helping. Like the last thing I need to hear is the word relax. Oh, she just started saying, never say that word again. But from somebody that maybe doesn't struggle as much, how do you know, like define it?

What are the symptoms? So part of what was helpful for me in thinking about perfectionism was drawing from some research on it from, you know, psychology. And the way that researchers define it is two things. They talk about perfectionistic strivings and perfectionistic concerns. So perfectionistic strivings are somebody's high standards. It can happen in many areas of life, like athletics, academics, physical appearance, you know, someone that has very high standards. And, you know, those high standards can be helpful, for example, in sports. And you're thinking about elite athletes, right?

Like, they're not like, whatever, I don't care. But the problem is that perfectionistic strivings for perfectionists are paired with perfectionistic concerns. So those are overly critical self assessments, sometimes doubts about actions. Am I really doing it right? Could I have done better?

What should I do? You know, indecision because you want to make the right choice, fear of failure, guilt and regret, and kind of rumination after you fail. And so, like I said, this can come up in many different areas of life. And because I didn't struggle with perfectionism, really, in many of these other domains, I didn't think I was a perfectionist. And so in my circles, in terms of Christian circles, people would be like, I knew that I struggled in terms of receiving God's grace and understanding grace. I know that I knew that I struggled with anxiety and guilt, and fear of like, disappointing God.

I knew those things. I just never thought of those as perfectionism. And I had heard that that was just like, well, you just don't believe enough, you know, you don't believe God's love enough, or you just need to remember you're forgiven, you know, but that wasn't always helpful because I'm like, I'm forgiven, but I still want to live for God. And I'm still failing.

So how do I deal with that tension? And Don Carson, he described this, he called it a species of discouragement that he saw in a lot of just devout believers, you know, he's talked about a pastor who's thought maybe I can't even be a pastor anymore because I can't put the work in that I think God wants me to, you know, just if you looked at how many hours a day it would take, it would just have been too much. And it wasn't performance, it wasn't like he was trying to build his ego, he just felt like he wasn't doing what God wanted. He wasn't able to live up to that standard that God wanted for him. And so Don Carson writes about believers who really do treasure the gospel, who love Jesus and know God's love, and yet still struggle, because they don't know how to live in the tension of, I've been forgiven, God loves me, and yet there's this call to holiness and to righteousness that God gives believers, not in order to gain God's love, not in order to gain salvation, but out of that. So what do we do? And how do we experience God when we fail? Okay, there's my question right there.

What do you do? I feel like I'm sitting with two women who sort of have that leaning because I know Ann wants to be perfect for God, completely righteous, and she is seen as completely righteous through the gospel, through Christ, through his death and resurrection, but honestly trying to always measure up and really, you know, you've struggled over the years like I didn't measure up. Totally. And I'm like, oh, you're good. Dave would get done preaching and I'd be like, so how did it feel?

He goes, great. You know, if I spoke, I'm not saying I was great. If I spoke anywhere, I, you know, afterwards like, oh, I should have done this. And if nobody said anything, I failed.

If there's no like feedback that's positive, I felt like, Lord, I'm sorry I let you down. Sorry, Lord, I didn't glorify you. And I would say to Dave, how do you do that? He goes, I just see it as I'm giving God my offering and I lay it on the altar like, Lord, I did the best I could today. And I'm like, I do that too. Like, Lord, it's the best I could do. But then I take it off the offering.

Like there's the best. And then I say, but I'm sorry I didn't do one, two, three, four, but he could just leave it and say it's the best I could do. Now God's going to work out the rest. What does that look like in your life with God? Yeah, because I know there's a lot of listeners that are resonating with what you're saying and they're like, help me.

How do how do I manage this tension? Yeah. What did it look like personally? Well, for in terms of what it looks like personally, I think it's kind of hard to think of even just one example because it manifests in so many ways. It can be something like feeling unsure when somebody asks me to serve, right? And I'm like, yeah, that's a great opportunity.

I would love it. And then feeling like afraid of my motives, right? Feeling afraid that I'm not pure enough in my motives. Like, oh, is it because I want to do it? Is it for my sake? Is it just for me and not, is it because of my pride? Is it because of all these things? And then as something that's like a joyful opportunity becomes kind of kind of fearful and wrought with anxiety, or I'll remember my past, like, you know, friendships or choices that I made that made like 20 years ago and still feel just so regretful of them, of how I wasn't who I should have been, you know, for somebody.

Yeah. I mean, thankfully I'm not who I was back then, right? Like now I'm not that person anymore. God has changed me and grown me, but it's hard for me to look back at even like teenage self, you know, and be like, why did I treat that person like that? You know, why did I miss that opportunity to share the gospel or the love of God or, or even every day, then I'll walk away from conversations that I had at church. Right. And be like, I could have listened better.

You know, I could have loved better. And Dave, you mentioned, yeah, as a pastor's wife, as a mom and those pressures. And I think for Christian perfectionists, those pressures aren't coming so much as much from outside. I mean, there are outside pressures, I think, but it's like from this inner drive and an inner desire that I really love how you started out saying that you loved that about Anne, you know, that that was like a good desire because I think since we experienced it as difficult, sometimes it, we even feel ashamed of wanting that.

Right. But like, I would feel like God would look at Anne, like your, what you said about leaving that speaking engagement and being like, Oh, you know, like I wanted to glorify you. And, and it's not like God would be like, well, why didn't you just leave it at the altar? Like, you know, like Dave did, like, but he's like, that is such a good and earnest desire. And that's something that I tried to point out. And that has been helpful for me to hear affirmed is like that striving is, is in the scriptures. You know, Jesus says, like, be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect. Paul says, like, I'm striving towards that goal. I have not attained perfection yet. And that is something that I think those, at least from what I hear, right. My husband is a little bit more like you, Dave, thank the Lord.

There's not two of us that are the same. But I think in some ways, like, he's like, you know, I know I have learned so much grace and experienced so much of God's grace through him. At the same time, he's like, I've been kind of moved towards the gift or that tendency that, that I have, you know, that he has moved towards that, not in terms of the perfectionism part, but in terms of the striving and the desire and the kind of like being sensitive to sin being desiring for more righteousness and holiness.

And so I think I would first want to affirm that in somebody and be like, Hey, that is a good desire that God's given you. He doesn't condemn you and berate you and be like, well, you made yourself so tired, you know, like, well, you know why you're so tired? It's because it's your fault for being a perfectionist, you know, and which I think sometimes we kind of, it's easier sometimes for us as perfectionists to kind of imagine God that way. Which is interesting, isn't it?

Yeah. And I think that in many ways is part of the heart of it is how we see and how we imagine God deals with us as imperfect people. Tell me what you've seen in God when it was a warped view, because, you know, intellectually, you know, through scripture, this is the correct view, but where would your mind generally go when you're not in a good place of how the Father could view you? Yeah, I think the first word that comes to mind is disappointment, right? Because, you know, like, I know He loves me, you know, I know He, thankfully, like, that I was taught that, right? I was in the church and in my, early on in my Christian life, you know, when I heard the gospel, I knew I don't earn salvation. So I knew that part, like, it's not like He doesn't love me, but what does that love look like?

That's the hard part, right? Is that because we kind of, you know, we have views of human love that are mixed in there and human love can be like, okay, or even if it's unconditional, like, me and my kids, you know, like, I do love them, I'll die for them. Like, I will love them no matter what, but sometimes in my anger or in my impatience, you know, it's not like, I don't think my love is like, I don't love them anymore, but I act unloveingly for sure, you know, which is just, so I think that view of God then is like, yeah, well, let's be messed up again, faith, you know, and you can do better, you know, and not in an encouraging way. You know, Ann was saying earlier that some of hers was from her background and her dad, who I know and I love, was pretty high performance. Like, come home with a first place or don't come home. He literally said that.

Don't come home with third place gymnastics all around coming first. Is that common for perfectionists? Is there somebody, something in their life that has sort of raised the bar so high and been disappointed if they didn't hit that bar and so we sort of attach that to our spiritual walk?

Yeah, so it is common. There are many different causes of perfectionism. Some of it's just start, like, makeup, like our biological makeup. Yeah, I think I see it because I have, like, four different kids and they just process life so differently. Like, some are more introspective and some are a little more, like, I just walk through the world and whatever happens, happens, right?

So there's the biological makeup. There's, like, just explicit church teaching. You know, some people are growing up in churches that, that do tell them, like, God is mad at you because you're not doing the right thing.

And God is kind of just this cosmic, unhappy coach, you know, that's just, like, holding a whistle and ready to just, like, I don't know, I've never been in sports, so I don't know how to do this. But marking down, like, maybe your PE teacher, you know, who's just, like, up, marking down, like, your, your, how you're inept. Or, yeah, or a teacher that's saying, oh, C- or D or F. Yeah, F, yeah, all the time.

F, F, F, you know, this is how you failed, never how you did well, right? So that some of it could be explicit teaching, and then some of it can be our, much of it can be our closest relationships, right? Because our understanding of who our Father is, you know, as our Heavenly Father comes from our earthly father, that's how God made it to be. But even our understanding of love. And that's why sometimes it's hard to just hear, well, God loves you, you know, because my understanding of love can be like, well, He loves me, but He doesn't like me, you know?

Like, it's just, He loves me, doesn't mean He's happy with me, right? And, and, and sometimes it's cultural too, like, cultural and a family, like, this is what love is. Love is to, I hold you to these standards because I love you, because I want you to succeed, you know? Or it could be cultural in, you know, I'm, I'm a Chinese American, and in Chinese immigrant culture, at least in American, Chinese American immigrant culture, love is expressed deeply through sacrifice. Like, we have sacrificed everything so that you can be here. So I, and a lot of people in my community, we have no problem believing that, like, God, that God loves us because He gave us this huge sacrifice of Jesus, right? But the idea of, like, God saying, you know, I, I'm happy with what you did, you know, like, good job. Doesn't come as naturally, because in a lot of our families, that's not how necessarily how love was portrayed.

And I'm grateful because my, you know, my dad did express delight, you know, I'm proud of you, you know, but that's not, that wasn't really common for a lot of my friends or people in our community or our church community. And so, for a lot of us, yeah, it could be difficult to imagine God's love as delight. And so that's why I think the scriptures are so important, not just in terms of the word of love, like the word love, God loves you. Remember, God loves you, but it describes what that looks like.

You know, what does God's love look like to imperfect people? Now, how have you found, it's in your title, peace? Because, you know, one of the things you said earlier in the book, I love, you said, this book is for weary believers who strive to serve God, but find themselves weeping bitterly over their failures more often than not. And so give us some application of finding that peace.

Yeah, how do I find rest if that's me? This is where it gets hard because for the how, I think this is what us as perfectionists we latch onto, because we're like, give me the solution. You know, like, even if it's like, knowing God, then it's like, oh, I got to know God better, you know, or that means I have to read the Bible this many times or do this.

So that's where it gets a little difficult. And I feel like Jesus kind of flips that question a little or just answers it in a way that's surprising, right? So we're like, tell me the way, tell me what truth I have to know, you know, tell me what I have to do. And then Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, right? He says, come to me and I will give you rest. And so this rest, I believe fundamentally is found in relationship with God.

I know that sounds like a simple answer, but I think you think about like a scared child, like what would you tell them, right? It's the scared child that's going to their parent. It's everything about the parent that helps, you know, it's the truth that the parent says, it's the presence of the parent, it's the love of the parent. And I think that's what, for Christian perfectionists, Jesus' invitation is to receive rest and receive peace. You know how the hymn says, just from Jesus simply taking life and rest and joy and peace. And so coming to Jesus, weary, heavy laden, because He is He is gentle and humble in heart and knowing that as we do that, He gives us rest for our souls. I totally agree with that faith. And I think one of the hardest things for me over the years, even in seminary, I thought finally, I already understand who God is and His love for me intellectually, but I just couldn't feel it in my heart. Not that that's always has to be there, but I think the more I have been in the scriptures over the years, and I've seen God's unconditional love, even in the Old Testament, I know some people are like, this is the scary judging God, but even in the Old Testament, His covenantal love and His pursuit of His people is mind blowing.

And then when you get into the scriptures and even the gospel and the parables of the prodigal son and the father running toward him, I think that gradually, I wish it would come in a night, don't you? Like we'd just be changed overnight. And some of us maybe could be, but I'm not.

I have been changed over years of being in God's word, of understanding that unconditional love and pursuit of us, no matter our actions. Yeah, but you want to, I mean, it's in your subtitle, you want to get to a place where you enjoy, right? I mean, I'm glad you use that word, enjoy God. I don't know, sometimes when I even look at Anne and you guys sound similar, there's an enjoyment and then it goes away. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm enjoying God, I'm feeling His peace. And then thoughts, again, I'm not in your brain, but it feels like thoughts come in that I could have done better or I failed here.

And so the enjoyment is temporary rather than longer. You know, again, I sense a peace in both of you. You know you just want to be like us.

I do. I want to be like you. No, in some ways, I think my peace sometimes can be denial. You know, it's like, I don't want to deal with, I'm not good enough. And I know I'm not, but I'm good because God says I'm forgiven and you give grace. And again, not a license to sin, but I'm okay with that. Like Anne said, when I walk off the stage after a sermon, the first five or seven, eight years, I did it for 30 some years, I was beating myself up because I felt like every sermon, every Sunday had to be the best ever done on this topic by anybody in the world.

And then I realized after years of doing it, it's like, it is, it's an offering. I'm going to do my very best. I'm not going to be great. I'm going to miss many things. And I'm going to be able to get in the car and go, I gave it to him and guess what? Next week's another shot. And if I miss something, I'll try and get back. But I was able to find rest, but I'm not wired so much to be perfect.

And you guys feel that. So again, I'm just saying what I heard you saying, I think it's beautiful is peace is a person. It's Jesus. And come to me, all you labor, I will give you rest. I'm just wondering, do you guys feel like you go to him and you pile some more stuff on and you got to just keep going back, which is fine.

Because that's what he wants us to do. Yeah. I'm just from a Christian perfectionist and I'm sitting with two of them, which not saying it's a bad thing. It's a beautiful thing. I know. We're pretty great. I'd always want faith on my team. That is who you want on your team because they are striving. They're not settling. Yeah. And the worst thing you want on any team, somebody settles.

But I think that can be a curse in ways because it's like, I'm never satisfied, but you sound like there are moments of satisfaction. That's what the book's about. Right? Yeah. And you know, that's such good question. Both of you guys, I'm like, I should be taking notes.

I need to add some more pages to this book. But that is such a good question in terms of that peace because the reality is that our sense of peace can be fleeting. It's just such gifts. Like the moments where we feel God's the light, it's just like, Oh God, that is such a gift. But yeah, because for now we struggle with that. I don't think we'll struggle with that forever when we see Jesus face to face. And when he says to us, like, I am delighted in you, you know, well done. And my good and faithful servant, you know, you're not going to, you won't struggle the same way. But the reality is like, we will struggle with that. And I think what's really helpful is to remember that our peace with God is not dependent about our subjective experience of his peace. Right?

It says in Romans five, like, therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Like our relationship with him is, is unshakable. And so, I mean, I don't know if you've had this experience before where you're like, Oh, you think someone's mad at you and upset, upset at you or something like that, or you think you've done. And then you're like, that's called marriage. All the time where I'm like, I think my husband, my husband's name is Jeff. I'm like, I'm, I think he's mad at me. And then when I finally come to him like, Oh wait, you're actually not mad. And he's like, what are you talking about? And I was like, I thought you were upset at me. And he's like, no, no, I wasn't. Reality is, you know, sometimes he is upset in marriage.

I'm upset too. But with God, right, we have this peace that is unshakable, you know, that because we're reconciled with God. And so sometimes we don't feel it and, and that's okay. Like we can ask God, like, help me and experience this peace, Lord.

But it's, I think for us or for me as a perfectionist, it helps to not add to the stress of needing to feel peace, you know, like, because again, that's the thing about perfectionism, we just spiral, you know, everything can become like an accusation, even the fact that you don't feel peace, you know. But then to be like, hey, this peace, I'm at peace with God, God is, God and me, things with us are good, even though I don't feel it, is deeply comforting. You know, Anne's got some reflections that you'll want to hear in response to Faith's words.

That's in just a second. But first, I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Faith Chang on Family Life Today. Faith has written a book called Peace Over Perfection, Enjoying a Good God When You Feel You're Never Good Enough. And many of us can connect with that perspective because we wrestle with that. I am at peace with God. I'm at peace with God. And many of us can connect with that perspective because we wrestle with that.

I am actually one of those people wrestling with perfectionism. Facebook really offers a fresh perspective on God's character, and it provides reassurance and guidance for Christians struggling with the burdens of perfectionism. This book is going to be our gift to you when you give today to family life. You can get your copy right now with any donation by going online to familylifetoday.com button at the top of the page. Or just give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Or feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you'd like.

Our address is Family Life 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832. All right, let's hear some insight from Anne about intentional encouragement. I know that when I've spoken with other women at conferences, especially younger women, when they'll come off the stage, I'll look at them and pray over them and put my hands on them. But I also say, hey, I want you to know this was an amazing job. You encouraged us.

And then I would go through specifically of how they helped people. God used you today. But I also want you to know this, it's not going to do any good for you to go back and beat yourself up over what you didn't say, because the Holy Spirit was all in that. And even if there's parts that you feel like you failed in it, and this could be any area of our lives. This could be parenting.

This could be marriage. You're going to feel like you failed in some areas. But I just want you to know God was delighting in everything that you offered up today. And it was like a sacrifice that you gave. So tomorrow or the next day, when your head is all over the place and you're starting to go over what you said or maybe what people didn't say to you, or maybe you offended somebody, just know the enemy, the accuser is going to want to steal all of your joy.

And so just take those thoughts captive and lay them at the feet of Jesus and allow him to love you. And he's saying, well done. It was a great step in faith. Now coming up tomorrow, Faith Chang is back and she invites us to navigate marriage, parenting, and spiritual growth amidst perfectionism.

And how do you do that? Well, she's going to talk about that tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.