New Year, New “Us”: Brian Goins & Ed Uszynski

Hey, this is Shelby Abbott. I just wanted to take a second to thank you if you gave to our matching program that happened in December. You know, checks are still coming in, and we don't have all the numbers yet, but if you gave, I sincerely want to say how grateful I am for your generosity to help make family life today possible. Thank you so much for giving and supporting this ministry. And even if you didn't give, and you've just shared episodes with someone, or even if you just listened, thank you for being a part of family life today.

All right, let's jump into today's episode. There are those moments that, you know, that God allows us to build. He could have stopped you at any moment, you know, in your disobedience. He could have brought somebody in your life. He could have shaken you to the core. He could have done... But He let that build. Why?

Because He knew that there was a longer trajectory for what that story would take. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

All right, so Family Life Today is an exciting day. We've got a couple of guys we love in the studio. We love these guys. Well, do you love them?

I mean, maybe we're over-exaggerating. Yes, and we love their wives. We think they're pretty. That's what you really love. I love these guys, too. They're remarkable. Yeah. Brian Goines, Ed Usinski. Usinski?

How do you pronounce it? Blame it on my name. You've got to own this one, man. I'm sorry. They're going to edit that out. It'll never see the light of day.

It might be the best part of the whole show. How many kids? How long have you guys been married? Twenty-four years.

Amy and I just celebrated 24 on October 3rd, and we have four kids, 23, 20, 18, and 12. Nice. Yeah.

Twenty-seven years topped you, even though I'm much younger. And we have three kids, 23, 20, about to be 21, and 15. Yeah. So we've got tail ends that are holding us back from that empty nest stage that you guys get to enjoy.

Are you guys looking forward to empty nest? Oh, man. No. You're not? No, I'm not, man. I'm really not. It's interesting.

I love having our kids be a part of what we're doing. I really do. I'll miss it. I'm not saying I don't want to be with Amy alone.

I'm not fearing it in that way. Hey, Amy, you can turn off the program right now if you want. I will miss them.

I miss their lives being a part of our lives. Brian won't. I can already tell. He's like, really? I keep looking at my son like, you're still here?

When do you leave? You love Gibson. Gibson's getting spoiled like crazy. The older kids keep telling him, you're getting everything. You eat out every week. Same. Yeah, Trey.

Like, when are you gonna spank Trey? That's what we hear all the time. We used them all up on you guys. There's nothing left. Actually, it didn't work on you guys. It really didn't work, so we just have stopped. Right? He's just here to mow the lawn. And some of our guests know your voice, Brian, because they've heard you and Shanti together on your podcast.

Tell us what the podcast is. How long have you been doing that with Shanti? Yeah, so it's Married with Benefits. It's a bit sporadic. We have more of a seasonal approach to ours, although those seasons happen to be separated by a few years, maybe.

But it really has been fun to do that with her. Just questions that we kind of have this. I don't even know what we planned on this, but just questions every wife is asking. Season one, questions every husband's asking, because the husband's felt left out. Season two, and then questions every couple's asking about sex. They've gotten good attention, haven't they?

No, especially the third season. Yeah, a lot of attention. People want to know. But you two have also been working on quite a project for several years. They've had a couple projects, actually. That's right. Weekend to Remember, Revise, Reimagined, and then The Art of Marriage.

Is that what we're talking about today? We're gonna talk a little Art of Marriage? What do you think? Yeah, and Art of Marriage was fun to do because we got to interview people like you. It was just an incredible two-year experience. It just took us two years to put together.

Just two years. Yeah, no big deal. You deserve a break. I can't wait for listeners all over the world to download this, to go through it, to go through it as a small group material. I'm glad that it's on Right Now Media because they have so many people that will go through it, and it is good. Yeah. Well, tell us about that because we got to interview you, and you've seen some of the sessions.

You've seen some of the clips. What excites you about The Art of Marriage? Well, I'm a woman, so of course I'm going to say this. In the original Art of Marriage, it was phenomenal as well. But with this Art of Marriage, the majority are couples. So I like hearing the wife's voice, her perspective, what's going on. I like that it's diverse in a lot of different ways, diverse in age, diverse in race. And so I feel like there's something for everyone. I like it.

I love it. Yeah, my first thought is it's a different day culture-wise today than it was, what was it, 20 years ago? 2011.

So about 11 or 12 years ago. Yeah. So the presenters are very vulnerable and raw.

From the word go, they're sharing weakness and struggle as well as victory and identity in Christ. I'm not saying the first one didn't do that, but in that day, that wasn't commonplace. And the generation almost pushed back from that. Now we have a generation that won't listen to you unless you're somebody they can relate to with the struggle. And you guys captured that. These are people you're going, whoa.

Let's just be real. If any of us have adult kids, I'm very picky about what I'm going to put before them because they're just going to trash it. Like, you think this is good?

As I watched this, I got really excited inside thinking they're going to love this. Maybe. Oh my. Maybe. Maybe. You're telling me there's a chance.

There's a chance. They might like it. Well, part of the reason why it was so hard is that the first one was so good. It was pioneering in so many different ways. And when they asked us and trusted us with this mission of, hey, we want you to reimagine this thing because so many guys have been wearing it out, wearing out the DVDs, wearing out the videos. And they were like, we need something.

It needs to be updated. I mean, Dave had hair back when. Did I? Yeah, I think so. I don't think I did.

A little bit. And then Ann had a much different hairstyle on the first one. Well, you know, it's funny. It's 12 years ago.

You better have a different hair. Yeah, right. Good job. In terms of how God used that first one, when we were asked to speak on the Love Like You Mean It cruise the first time, I was literally preaching in a series at my church on people in the Bible that were overlooked and that God used, right? And so the Sunday that we're going to get on a plane and fly down to get to the thing, that morning, I literally go, hey, guess what? When I'm done preaching today, Ann and I are flying down to Miami, getting on this boat, blah, blah, blah. I go, you want to talk about people that are overlooked. I went on the Love Like You Mean It cruise website yesterday to see what they say about us. Because I said, all the speakers are people that are known.

We're nobody. So I go on there and I show them a screenshot. Here's what's on the Love Like You Mean It cruise.

It has Dennis Rainey's picture and it says Dave and Ann Wilson. It was totally confused. And so I said, nobody's going to know who we are. We're walking on this boat.

And here's what was really shocking. We walk on a boat, every person, hey, Dave and Ann. We're like, how do you? How about that? Yeah. Our marriage. Our marriage. I saw your story. There were guys quoting.

You say your marriage is 9.8. They were quoting what I said. Everybody – I was like, wow, God has used this tool all around the world. It was fascinating to see, wow, God really is using it. Well, at least they gave you that quote.

Because I have people that come up to me, because I was on the first one. I have one small part on the first part of marriage where I'm in this small group and I'm talking about sex. And I was like, hey, I thought sex was going to be easy. I thought it was going to be like, like butter. And I don't even know why I said – I've never said that. You don't talk like that. I've never talked like that. And that's what Bob was being captured. And so people come up to me and go, you're the like butter guy.

Like butter. All right. So that's my claim to fame. Hey, I just got to make sure. You're not using anything like that from us, are you? We don't even know what you see. You don't know. You don't know. We haven't seen it yet. You don't know.

We've seen parts of it, but we haven't seen everything. Yeah. I'm a little scared. Oh, you should be. You should be.

It's good. Well, whatever you had planned for this interview – I don't know what you guys are planning. We're taking over. Yep. We're taking over.

You said do whatever you want to with these guys. What do you mean take it over? We're flipping the scripts. No, no, no. We're the hosts. No, no, no. Yes. I'm going to let them take over.

Like let's not even think about it. This is Brian and Ed. This is Brian and Ed. This is Brian and Ed. This is Brian and Ed Show.

Cheers to you. Yes. The bread show. We're taking over.

Bread toasting. All right. All right.

You don't know these guys like I know them. Are you afraid? Pass me the guitar. Because we got – yeah, that's right. Are you going to sing? Because somebody's got to sing. Yeah, yeah. Maybe at the end. Why don't you sing something?

If people hang in there, they can hear that at the end. You love music. You can quote it. I love listening to music. I don't sing in the microphones.

Yeah, no. Well, it never stopped me. So here we go. That's right. That is one I won't regret with Art of Marriage. We don't have him singing a song.

How did that not happen? Yeah, if you really want to take that thing to the world. Bonus clips.

You did the right thing. That's right. So when we think about – you guys do such a good job with this, and it was so fun having – you were a story in the first Art of Marriage, but in this new version, we've got you more as a voice, a consistent voice. I think they show up in every – I think about every episode, every session. But the thing that we love about you, I think the reason why people love this show so much is just that you guys are real and vulnerable. You lead with authenticity. I have so many people that come up to me at a weekend to remember or when we're traveling, Jen and I are traveling, and they're like, oh, you know Dave and Ann Wilson? I feel like I know them.

I feel like they're my best friends. There's just – and even as we're sitting at this table, this beautiful table that Jim Mitchell built, the producer of – Shout out to Jim Mitchell. Shout out to Jim Mitchell. Shout out. This table is spectacular.

It is. People feel like they're in these two seats right here that are empty right now. They feel like they're at the table with Dave and Ann, and that's how they show up in Art of Marriage.

They do. Yeah. So we got some questions that – this is from the people. The people have commissioned us. The people. We're representing the people. We're representing the people that just want to get – we could ask them that no one else has asked them. That's what our charge is.

The things that most people would love to ask you guys if they could. Do we believe this is really from the people? This is from the people.

Okay. So besides us, favorite guess? Besides you guys?

Oh, you guys. Hands down. Number two. Who would be number two?

Who would be number two? It's a long drop, but I don't know who you're thinking. I know who you're thinking.

Tell me who I'm thinking. I think you'll think of Philip Yancey. Yep, I'm thinking of Philip Yancey.

Is that what you were going to say? And some of it's because he was recent. I loved him too because he shared his memoir, the story of his life. And I think we all know the name Philip Yancey.

We know what he's written about, but to hear where he came from. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I just finished it. It's amazing, isn't it? It's good, isn't it? It's shocking in some ways.

Yeah. It resonated because he's almost like a hero because I never knew him, but I read Disappointment with God early in my Christian walk, and I'd never heard anybody say those things out loud. Like, I'm disappointed with God. You're not allowed to say that.

Whether you think it or not, you just keep it yourself. And he voiced it and said, that's common, and here's why. So, that book in some ways changed my life. So, to have him sitting right there was pretty cool. It was almost as good as having Paul McCartney in the room, but not quite that good. My real hero in life. He's putting that duet together, that mashup, Paul McCartney and Philip Yancey.

The Yancey McCartney duets by Yancey McCartney. That book changed my life. That's amazing.

Ann, anybody else from you? Well, I think my favorite interview was actually Ron and Nan Deal, who, you know, Ron leads our blended ministry, and when they share their story of Nan's addiction, I don't think I've ever been in an interview that felt more holy. And it also felt like all the credit went to Jesus. It was one of the most vulnerable, because Ron is well known. He's written a lot of books.

He has an amazing ministry. So, for them to come on and say, hey, this happened not 20 years ago, but in the last few years, they had a lot of courage to bring that about. Yeah.

Yeah. We could go on and on. So, even in mentioning those two, I mean, Yancey tells the truth in the way he writes. He's vulnerable about what's behind the curtain.

Ron and Nan, super vulnerable. They're just telling the truth about painful things. You guys are known for telling the truth.

That's what we just said. People feel like you're being vulnerable and telling the truth. What motivates you to do that? I mean, you put yourself out there, you're going to get hurt. Like, people may reject you. We were even talking about that, you know, just different ways that maybe people haven't received that well.

What motivates you to keep being those kind of people behind the mic? I shared this the other day, but it brought back memories of going to seminary. When we went to seminary, he was the president, actually, of the seminary, Don Weaver and his wife, Lois. They were great. They took us under their wings.

We were only 22 and 25. And they said, we want you to not only be mentors, but we want to bring you into our family and our extended family. Because we have a small group that we've been meeting with for several years.

They're people in the neighborhood, people in our community. It was a privilege. We didn't know it. But Don and Lois picked one couple out of school each year, and we got to be that couple.

And part of it was come to our home every Thursday night and have dinner and be in our small group. And you guys, you know, we're naive. We know nothing. We've been Christians very long. And we're trying to do it right and perfectly. And we walk in there and like, oh, this is great.

You know, they pray. And so Don's like, okay, everybody, let's just kind of go around and tell us how your week was. And I'm like, oh, this is cool.

You know, they're going to talk about Jesus and what God's showing them in the Bible. First person, like, I smoked pot all week. And I'm like, oh, my God, where are we? You guys, this is back in the 80s. We are hitting each other under the table. What's happening? And another couple's like, we hate each other. Like, our marriage is horrible. And so each, and then there's this girl, she's 21.

She goes, well, I'm really struggling with my multiple personalities. And you guys all know I was possessed. Like, are we just like, yes. And so we, what did you guys share? We were like, we yelled at each other. We got in the car and I told Dave, like, I don't even know what just happened, but it was the most appealing thing. I'd never heard people be so honest, so raw.

Like, they just let us all in. And I think once you taste that vulnerability, you can never go back. Yeah.

Yeah. At the same time, you know, we journeyed with them for months, really more than a year, maybe two years. And you saw transformation. So you saw real honesty and you saw growth.

And that growth probably doesn't happen if you're not in an environment where they feel safe, to be honest. We had never seen that in the church. And I grew up with a single mom taking me to church and I wasn't a believer.

I sort of thought it was a joke. And then when I graduated high school and went to college to play football, I literally said to my mom, I'm never going to church again. And I never did. I'm like, I just saw church as perfect people that are fake and never share struggles. I never once ever met a person at church who ever said anything, but Jesus is good. God's good. My marriage.

It was all, and I knew this couldn't be real. Obviously, there's a great turn to that story because I came to Christ in college, but I remember thinking as we started a church, this is going to be a safe community where people are honest. And I always want two things to happen in a Dave Wilson sermon and the same thing in a Family Life Today broadcast. Two things.

One is I want somebody listening to go, wow, they struggle with the same things we struggle with. It's like they were in our family room this week. It was the same fight we had. That's only half of it because that could be the end of it. But the other half is, and I also want them to go, they know the Holy Spirit and the power of God, the resurrection in a way I don't think I know. They have the struggle, but they have victory.

I hope that happens every single program, every single sermon, both that they're drawn. They connect because they're like you, but they're also drawn to the God that they may not know the way you do. What is it about vulnerability that creates growth? Talk about that because you guys have said that in a bunch of different ways.

Like how does growth happen when people tell the truth with each other? I think Jesus most meets us in our pain. I mean, we want victory. We want the good life and not to experience pain, but in pain is where we feel, actually we feel two things, sort of what Yancey's getting at. We feel disappointment and he's distant and he's silent and he's hidden. And yet he's also so present.

We're so needy in that moment that we are desperate and we feel him. And I think the people that are listening to us are feeling that and they want both sides of that. Even as you're saying that, I was just thinking about Paul's phrase where he says to join him in the fellowship of his sufferings.

There it is. Philippians 3. And you just think that's a weird combination of words. I'm in a fellowship, not just with Jesus, but with other fellow believers in suffering. And in the same verse and the power of the resurrection. There's both. And I always like, I want the power of resurrection. Who doesn't want that? But we run away from fellowship of sufferings, but it's both and.

So some people today are all about authenticity and fellowship of suffering, but they don't necessarily turn to the cross to get the healing, right? So you really do need both. And what were you going to say? I was going to say, I'm a visual person. So the way I see it is if you want to get a suntan, you go out into the sun, but if you have a mask on your face, you want to get sun on your face, but you have a mask on.

The sun can't penetrate. The moment you take off the mask, the sun can shine in, can bring growth, it can bring healing, it can bring a suntan, but the sun is Jesus. And when somebody takes off their mask in front of me, I'm like, there you are. And I'll tell you who took off their mask in front of them is everybody took off their mask in front of Jesus. And why?

Because he saw all of them and he loved every piece of them. That's compelling. And it's not that we just let people sit there and, you know, just kind of go down into the deep, dark pit of despair, but we give them the hope of the gospel. That's a good word picture. It is.

I know. I'm going to preach that. I like that. I'm stealing that. I'm going to take that as a weekend to remember this weekend. I really like that. I can't wait to hear that.

He is the visual, well, you've seen the tandem bike and all her things. I love that. Last thought on that is, you know, I think I said this sometime this week, we've done quite a few.

We've done so much. Anne and I are sitting in this studio right now as a host of Family Life Today because of the most painful moment in our marriage. If that hadn't been on the art of marriage and it wouldn't have been on there unless Bob Lapine said, hey, I know this story. Would you be willing to tell it? And part of me is like, no, I don't want to tell it. No, it's a bad moment. And I was an idiot. I'll just keep that.

But because of that, God goes, watch this. I'm going to take that moment and make it sort of your story that connects to all these other people because they hear it and they go, I'm the same way. I think our marriage is a 10 and it's really a two. And how in the world can that couple be saying that when we're, yeah, so it's the thing that connects people to people. And I know most people have probably heard that story. But for those that haven't, you know, it is a story about how, you know, 10 years in your marriage and Anne, you said, you know, I've lost my feelings for you. And it was that moment of what do you, especially Dave, what do you do in that moment? What did you feel?

What did you do with that? Because I think I would have such a reaction. I'd want to react to that statement. Get defensive. Get defensive.

Get angry. He had for two years. He had for two years. Yeah. I was waiting for her to jump in.

I knew she was going to. So you said that. You said that multiple times. It wasn't just once. But Brian, the way I said it was mean, man. Oh, you're gone again?

Seriously? Do we even know who you are anymore? Kids don't know who you are. I don't. Isn't that so warm and inviting? It makes me want to change. Yeah.

It pushes me to sanctification. Thank you, honey. May I have another? Yeah.

Right. But I mean, as you can imagine, I couldn't hear it. I didn't hear it.

Who would want to hear that? I can remember getting in our little car as she's yelling at me, walking out the driveway, kids in our arms, another one dragging on the floor, not on the floor. What did she do with her kids? But I can remember getting in the car, driving out of our subdivision, just screaming mad, so mad at her, so mad at my life. And I'm going to lead a Bible study. Right. And so between that driveway and the meeting I'm at, I've got to get right with God. And then I come home to this again.

And here we are. I'm going to get yelled at. So that night when she said it, it was a miracle because it was the first time I think I really heard it. And I didn't get defensive. And I didn't say it in a mean way. I just spoke the truth. No, it was, you could feel the finality in her voice. Like, I've said this, you haven't heard it, but I've lost my feelings for you. I could feel like she was done.

She was done. What do you think happened that night that you were able to hear it? Why were you able to hear it? Was it something circumstantially going on with you or it just? I think it was a supernatural move of God because I heard the voice of God.

It was very loud and clear, not audible, but a Holy Spirit nudge of repent. Okay. This is not her problem. This is yours. And it isn't even horizontal. This is you and me.

And you know, it's one of those moments where as a man, you're like, I know this is true. I am not close to Jesus. It's almost like I'm lukewarm. And it wasn't, I have lost my salvation. I wasn't in moral sin. It was just an apathetic, I'm busy, and it's all God work. It's ministry. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

And I hope people hearing, it's like, put whatever situation you want to put in there. Like anybody in Christian ministry, whatever business, whatever job you have becomes just, can become monotonous and become mundane. And so just because you're doing the Lord's work doesn't mean you're in the Lord's will. Right. Right. Or in the Lord's favor.

I mean, you're in his favor, but you may not be favorable toward God. Right. But you got to just keep working and keep doing. Yeah. And you know, you guys probably know this, you can sort of fake it. Yeah. Anybody can fake it. Anybody can. But you know what? You can in your marriage.

Yeah. It will eventually come out and it came out. And yeah, the long and good part of the story is it was about me and God. And I knew that if I get right with God, that's step one.

Step two will be he will help us do the horizontal part, get our marriage better. It's interesting, Dave, as I think back on those days where you would get super defensive, I think that's one of your greatest strengths now in terms of- Getting defensive? Yeah. Of receiving. There's a humbleness in you. If I say something to you, you might be mad when I say it, but you'll think on it.

You'll pray about it and you won't say anything, which I wish I could be like that. And then you'll come back and talk about it. And I've heard the boys come to you as men saying, Dad, you really dropped the ball here. Dad, you really hurt me here.

You are never defensive. Even when one of our sons told you our church is dead and I'm like, oh boy, this is going to be interesting. And you started the church.

You leaned in and you said, tell me more. That is a great quality man. You might feel like you had failed on that 10-year anniversary, but you have grown so much.

I like this show. This is great. Can we just keep going?

Can you just keep telling me more about that? When I think about how it's like, there are those moments that God allows us to build. He could have stopped you at any moment in your disobedience. He could have brought somebody in your life. He could have shaken you to the core. He could have done, but he let that build. Why?

Because he knew that there was a longer trajectory for what that story would take. So even allowing us to go against each other for so long, but then to bring you back in that moment, you chose repentance rather than defensiveness. And I just think of how many people are out there right now going, I might be in that moment right now. Maybe I'm in that moment with my spouse. Maybe it's time. Maybe it's time.

Maybe it's time. And that moment not only changed the trajectory of your marriage, but because it was captured and because you guys were open and honest enough to allow yourselves to be vulnerable, it seriously has touched millions of people. And it's been translated into now 17 languages in the original art of marriage. And so I just thank you for allowing God to use that story in ways that you never imagined or thought. And you don't think of that in the moment that you're apologizing. You're like, oh, I can't wait for God to use this story. You just want to get beyond the moment. Millions need this.

Millions need to hear this story. You're not thinking that. You're not thinking that. You're like, how do I just come back together? I'm a jerk. I don't want to be a jerk anymore.

That's right. Hey guys, you're good at this. Well, if we're good, you know, we'd like to go another day. You want to go another day? Let's do it. Is it alright if we go one more day? Are you open now? As long as you let me be in control.

No. Here's what I want to ask, because I think this is important. What I want to ask tomorrow is, I want to start off, because it's like you had that moment of not liking each other for a couple of years, you know, that you weren't liking each other. I'm curious to know if you've had any more similar things where you have seasons of not liking each other, because I think a lot of couples go through that.

How do we get out of not liking each other? It's good. Doesn't every couple go through it? I think so. We really do. Shout out to Amy. Amy does. Amy does. I don't know about you. Amy does. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Brian Goins and Ed Yuzinski on Family Life Today.

I love this conversation. They've got such great banter there. You can be sure to check out Brian Goins' podcast, Married with Benefits. It'll be found in the show notes on familylifetoday.com.

Have you picked out what small group study your group will be using this upcoming spring, or do you need a way to reconnect with your spouse or your couple friends? Are your couples in your church asking you for help with their marriages? These are common questions, and so I'm excited to personally deliver the news to you that the all-new art of marriage is officially here. That's right. It features a diverse array of new couples and artists who, over the course of six different sessions, unpacked six biblical words that describe God's love for us and how each can be displayed through our messy, imperfect marriages.

Yes, even yours. Whether you're a newlywed or you've been married for decades, Family Life's art of marriage is your path to a stronger, more beautiful masterpiece of God's handiwork. You can go to the show notes or artofmarriage.com to learn more and order your leader kit. We're excited to share the all-new art of marriage with you. Now, coming up tomorrow, we wanted more.

They said they were going to give us more, so it's going to happen. We're going to explore the challenges in marriages, the power of non-sexual touch and honest communication with Brian Goins and Ed Yuzinski with David Ann Wilson tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.