How to Be “All There” in Your Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda

Okay, so today is a fun day. You know why?

Yes. We're gonna talk about sin in our marriage. Oh, I thought you were gonna say because JP and Brian are with us.

Well, that's basically what I said. That's what I thought he was gonna say, too. We have two sinners sitting at the table with two other sinners. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Who are JP and Brian? First of all, they're our friends. Like, they are good friends. JP has been on before.

It's Jonathan Pakluta. And we're talking about his new book called Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? That's why I'm saying we're talking about sin.

I would say most of us ask that question daily. Why do I do what I don't want to do? And it's what Paul said in Romans 7. And so you kind of break that down with, well, JP, you tell us. Vices and virtues. Vices and virtues, which I think as we talk about marriage, we have an enemy, and he hates marriage. And we forget that. And he doesn't want your marriage to last. He wants you to take the out.

I think so often we get stuck in this defense mode of trying not to sin, trying not to give into that, or even worse, hiding it, rather than pursuing the virtuous life that God has for us and that he's calling us to in marriage. And then my boy Brian is here. We needed an example of somebody that, you know, so we brought Brian in.

We all do. I'm glad you're here because the other day I teased The Art of Marriage. They didn't ask me to say this. They're not paying me to say this. I'm here because I love these guys.

I love the work that God is doing through them. And if you have any influence at your church or even over a small group, find The Art of Marriage and go through it. It will help you. And if you know anyone that's in trouble or they don't even have to be in trouble, they just want to have a better marriage, which I hope is everyone in marriage.

Do everything you can. The resource has been out there. I've heard a lot of testimonies of how it's helped people. You guys have made it better. You've given it a facelift. And I'm so excited that it's out there in the world.

You're going to use it in Harris Creek? Absolutely, without a doubt. I'm saying that in front of all my friends right now. Absolutely we are.

The Wilsons and JP are on it. We know Monica. It's funny. They're going to think I'm not married. They're going to think, why is this guy sitting by himself? Because we have a ton of couples, you know, on this one.

And whereas we didn't have that as much on the first one. And so we have all these couples speaking together and there's a couple of single guys that speak and husbands that speak. And we actually have a couple of women without their husbands that speak.

But for some reason, JP is the one that, like, he's got a couch next to him and it's like a wide open space. People are like, where's his wife at? She was too busy. She was too busy to be there. And that's where we compliment one another.

She has no desire whatsoever to be behind the camera or, you know, any of that. And she's so good, man. There's so much wisdom that comes from her.

I tell her that all the time. But yeah, my wife, Jen, she got to know Monica a little bit when we were doing the filming. I think they were hanging out. They were hanging out by the pool while we were doing the filming. And it was she's just incredibly sweet. Great mom.

And we just really enjoyed getting you guys and the Wilsons. So excited about this one. Yeah. And tell us, I mean, how long have you been working? Two years? Three years? On this news?

On this one, it's going to end up being about two years. Yeah. So you got to be excited. And we're partnered with a great partner right now, Media. They're kind of a leader in small group curriculum and video curriculum.

And so it's immediately going to have a huge distribution. JP, in your book, you know, why do I do what I don't want to do? You mentioned these vices and then the virtue. And one of them is busy-ness and rest. That impacts a marriage every single day. I feel like it's a killer in our culture right now, especially does it feel like to you guys that we're busier than ever? Oh, for sure. Like there's so many stats around just even the information that we take in in one day is more than like a decade of the past.

I'll butcher the quote, but it was it was like it needs no exaggeration because I read it and I was like, wow, that's significant. And rest is a hot button. I mean, there's a lot of books being written right now about Sabbath and and rest and what are the rhythms look like? And, you know, I've heard busy is an acronym being under Satan's yoke. And so one of the tools that he uses is just to keep us away from the riches of the Father, the righteous life that he has for us, the virtues that he calls us to is just makes us busy. He doesn't have to take us out. He doesn't have to have us fall into some dark heroin addiction or something. He'll just keep you busy. Just distract you. Now, do you guys feel like you've had seasons in your life, maybe one right now that you're too busy?

Oh, yeah. And I was thinking about this, just like in my marriage, busyness is a great anesthesia to numb the pain that's there that I don't want to deal with. And so whether that's work or honestly, I can be busy with entertainment. I was going to say I can get into a Netflix series and just be gone.

It is just it's exactly right. I can just fill up my calendar with all kinds of stuff. And it doesn't have to be, you know, just your workaholism. It can be every distraction known to man. Every entertainment is at our fingertips.

And I can avoid the things that most matter. We're not efficient workers anymore. And so in generations past, if you were going to do a job like you would, you would go to do the job and really focus on that job.

If you're going to cut down a tree, you are swinging an axe and all of your time and energy were going down to having that tree fall. Well, now in the way that we work is we work on devices that also have the news, the Bible, social media, all kinds of information coming at us. So we're always kind of working and kind of resting in some ways. You know, it's a phenomenon they call weizure, which is like combining work and leisure together. And so we kind of stay in that mode.

And so I think if there's an indictment on me by my children, I think they would say some great things about their dad. But I think that they would say, and he was busy. There was always something playing in the background. There was always a distraction.

The phone was always available. That's a legacy I'm working really diligently to change. And so the irony there is a little bit of an oxymoron is, hey, what does it look like to work diligently to rest well? To build in those healthy rhythms so that when I'm with my son, I can just be with him. You guys are in the great city of Orlando, Florida. And so as we come here, it's like we're definitely, I brought my son with me. We're going to go do something. And he just said, hey, dad, take a picture. And I said, hey, buddy, I don't have my phone on me. I don't want anything to distract me from this time with you, which is one of those rare moments where I got it right. You know, just to say that there's lots of times I got it wrong. Well, it makes me think, and I like what you said, to work at discovering rest or finding that rest. It reminds me of Hebrews where he says strive to enter his rest.

Like there is a striving that I think, Anne, as you're saying, even now more than ever because of all this stuff. And I'd be curious, what has been really good things for you guys to do? Because I know for me, I was just at the beach.

We live near the beach now, now that we live in the headquarters here. We're flexed. I know.

Sorry about that. We live like about an hour. And I'm just amazed by how hard it is for me to sit on the beach. And just, like Jen and I did this on Sunday for the first time in a long time where we just sat there and I just felt anxious. I'm anxious you talking about it. Look at me.

I'm like, oh. Can I just sit here? I just taught Psalm 46 and you get to Psalm 46 10 and he says, be still and know that I am God. And I just said in front of the congregation, do you know how hard this is?

Because when the earth is giving way and the mountains are falling into the sea and there's a tyrant, a Syrian king at your gates wanting to kill you, the most counterintuitive thing to do is to be still and know that he is God. And in the context of marriage, what does your spouse want? There's a really strong likelihood that they want you to be still and to sit with them and to listen and or ask open ended questions. And just be together. And I think if you're like me, like sometimes I work so hard to change Monica's desire because I want to go do that at a restaurant with a white tablecloth and someone serving us. And she's like, well, why can't we just do that in the living room? Like sitting right here in our home and on the couch. I'm like, but why can't you be more like this?

And rather than why don't I just come her way? You know, just just sit there. I mean, being fully present. Yeah. Yeah. Someone wants to define love as focus. Yeah. Like you're just focused on that person. Have you guys because I had to go through this process I should have done in my 30s.

I did it just a few years ago. The process of why am I so busy trying to get to the root? Because Ann would say for years, my husband has five jobs. And when she'd say that, I'd smile like, yeah, it's awesome. That's a badge of like I'm a productive guy. Like he's a pastor, he's an alliance chaplain, he's a marriage speaker.

It's all about the college. And I always thought it was great until I went and sat down with a counselor a few years ago and he drew my life up on a board. And at the end of five hours and this guy was just very gifted by God to be able to circle certain things. So let's talk about this. He was right on. At the end, the homework assignment was go home before we meet next week and answer this question.

What am I running from? Yeah. And I came home and said to Ann, Greg told me to answer this question. Duh. Yeah. You know, like I've been trying to tell you this for decades. And it was one of the first times it forced me to the origin, the root.

What is it? You know, we sort of in our culture, it's like the busier you are, the more famous, you know, it's just crazy. More followers you have. It's just all these numbers. And it's like, why are we running so fast?

Because it's killing our marriages and we can feel it, but we keep going. Yeah. I think about searching for significance. Yeah. And I wonder, like, I'd be curious, like, let's get super practical then. So what is it that you do to build in that rhythm or that rest?

Because you talk about the virtuous rest. Yeah. So what does that look like for a marriage? Give me what your best practices are.

You have to find the source of the busyness. And so I made mention of my phone because it's just kind of everything right there. So gifts are my love language. Acts of service are my why. Like, she loves acts of service. I love gifts. And so I will buy her anything I can, you know, to say I love you. And so I've given her some amazing gifts. I mean, you know, if we listen about it, like, wow, those are amazing gifts. I haven't always been in ministry.

I was in the corporate world. And so I've given her some nice gifts. And they're mostly lost on her because she doesn't care much about material things. One year, I went and I bought a box. I cut a slit in the top of the box and I put a lock on it. And I gave it to her and I gave her the key. And I said, this is for my phone when I come home. And she wept. Oh, that would be the best gift. I've never seen her express such deep gratitude for anything, you know.

And so I think just putting your phone in the drawer so that when you're present, you're present. You know, I think it was Rick Warren who first said, divert daily, withdraw weekly, abandon annually. I thought that was the Wilsons. That was Warren. I said it in the book.

I said, Rick Warren, what we did with that. He was talking about rhythms in your spiritual life. We took it to our marriage and said that we're going to say this.

You want a great marriage, pray daily, date weekly, retreat annually. Same idea. But it's like, I want to apply that to here, just like you do vertically.

Let's do it there. I think you can think about that in terms of rest as well as, hey, you need to create some space. We just got back from a family vacation where for a week I turned off all email.

I deleted all social media just to remove the temptation so that I could be with them on the daily basis. There needs to be a time where you sit down and just check in with everybody. You know, just a moment where you're focused on each other. Like I've heard kids spell love, T-I-M-E. And then just every week that you're making a memory somehow, some way, if at all possible. I'm not trying to be rigid or legalistic about this, but just as a regular rhythm, what does it look like for us to go and share a meal together or to stay and share a meal together or to go bowling or to play a game? It doesn't have to be expensive.

It doesn't have to cost money. It's just time to be intentional with one another. Do you guys Sabbath? Yeah. But it has not been, I mean, I wouldn't say that for most of my marriage we Sabbath well.

And we've really, over the past, I would say three or four years, I've really tried to be far more intentional with that. And just rest, not focus on digital media at all, not do work. Do work that is not what I'm doing. So me actually working out in the yard is a restful activity.

It's not something I do during the week. So finding those ways to celebrate the Lord, celebrate each other, have fun, have a great meal together. And there's so much out there right now and great books on that. You would think as empty nesters, you think you guys have all the time in the world. And we have found that we're busier now than we've ever been. And one of the things that we've done to carve out that time because we're running so hard. Have we done something?

I'm waiting to hear what this is. One is we go to Mexico every year. But the other thing was we realize even we're so busy now that once a year isn't enough. And so, I mean, last year for Dave's birthday in between my birthday and his birthday, I'm like, let's go to Las Vegas. We're going to go for two nights. We're going to go great meals. We saw a couple of great shows.

John Legend, The Beatles Love. But it just gives us time like, hey, how you doing? You know, and that's been really good for us. You know, it's funny when you're a preacher, at least once a year I'll teach on Sabbath. And then I have to look at my life. Because obviously you're working on Sunday, so that's not a day. But to take a full day and rest. Like you said, to sit at a beach and not be like I got to go do something or pull my phone out and start answering emails. It's really, I think, hard. So to bring that into your marriage and say we need to rest together is critical.

Your marriage is going to spin out of control. And JP, I'm still stuck on your box. Your box with the phone. I think I've written a box for a gift.

I'm telling you. All of a sudden I'm afraid that Jen's going to listen to that and go, why don't you get me a box? Exactly.

That's what I'm thinking too. Because I thought even when we watch TV, we'll be watching a show together. And Dave's on his phone like, what are you doing? And I do the same thing. She did it last night.

I got her too. Like, oh, you think about me? Look at you. You know, it feels like you're not here.

And that's exactly what's true. You're not here, especially as a dad with your kids. They need mom and dad to be fully present.

Yeah. Hey, you know, another one that you talk about in this book that we've never mentioned that I think is huge in the family and in church families, drunkenness as the vice and sobriety as the virtue. Can we talk about that? What I talk about in the book is with my dad, like being home, growing up in our home, I never saw my dad drunk. After I left, he got vertigo and he would self-medicate his vertigo with alcohol. And so the first day that he met Monica, so I took Monica home to see to meet my parents. He stood up to shake her hand and fell down. And I was like, what is going on?

That wasn't vertigo? No, it was the first time I'd ever seen my dad intoxicated. And then from there on after, there were a lot of times, like sometimes we would drive home and I would get home after, you know, a six-hour road trip when we were living in Dallas. We'd drive home to see them.

I'd have a conversation with him that night and then the next morning have the same conversation. And it would just, it would stir in me a lot of anger and bitterness and really start our time home in that way. And then just being in ministry, you see how this impacts so many people. And I'm not a doctor, I'm not in science, but somehow this is easily passed on from one person to the next. Somebody might call it generational sin.

Whatever that is, you see how that kind of stays in a family. And so then I'm looking at myself and I'm like, hey, how do I, how do I make sure this isn't the thing that takes me out? And it has taken many people in ministry out. Like we're not immune to this.

And then I see in marriages, you know, one after the other, after the other, one of the spouses saying, hey, you know, the other person, I just see them really checking out and diving into alcohol. And so this is something that the enemy uses. I'm not old school. I'm not kind of coming and saying, hey, whatever.

Don't like stay away from the devil's juice. It's not that I'm saying, hey, this is something the enemy uses to take you out. You need to be sober and alert on that reality. And so if you're in this place where you think, hey, this is something I need to hide, that's usually a giant red flag, a big warning signal that if you're doing something secretly, any sin for that matter, any vice secretly, if you're hiding it from others, hey, I guarantee you, you are in a fence with the devil.

This is something that lion who prowls around, that enemy that prowls around like a roaring lion, he's looking to devour you in that way if you're hiding it. As a pastor for over 30 years, I saw this grow and grow and grow with church people compared to 30 years ago in my experience. And I just saw more acceptance. And I'm not saying, again, like you said, I'm not saying to have a drink is not scriptural, but to get drunk is.

It's not God's will for our life. And I would go to church events and like, wow, there's a freedom with alcohol here that's a little dangerous. And then I'd hear people say, like you said, JP, they started to hide it. And that's where you need to bring somebody in. I know it's a scary moment to say to somebody, I might have a problem with this and take steps towards sobriety. And maybe that's not the word you're even thinking of, but getting control to handle this in a productive way rather than a destructive way. Yeah. And the other thing I'll say is I mentioned that it's usually one spouse saying, hey, my husband is struggling or my wife is struggling in this way. But sometimes I see it it's in both people.

Right. And so they enable that in each other because that's what their marriage is built on. Hey, they met in a bar. They met when they were intoxicated.

They got married. And now as the marriage continues, they have these really unhealthy habits of going out to dinner and drinking too much. And I'm just saying, hey, you know, the scripture calls us to be sober minded, to not be drunk on wine, but be filled with the Spirit. For it is not for kings to be drunk.

We see all of these, you know, the Proverbs, all of these scriptures that call us to sober thinking. Yeah. You know, Brian, you said earlier that busyness is an anesthesia. Yeah. This is too. Absolutely.

You know, you're covering up some pain. And it's amazing how it has become. I mean, I grew up Southern Baptist.

So, you know, it was, you know, we didn't drink, we didn't smoke, we didn't watch our rated movies and we didn't date girls that did. I got to the place where I felt more freedom. But then what I noticed is that more and more, I think this is becoming kind of the sin of Christians today. It's like we have freedom in Christ. Absolutely. But it's so easy to abuse that freedom.

It's so easy to get to that place of, well, we're always doing, you know, having small groups and everybody brings wine and all that kind of stuff. Well, you don't think about it. Is there anybody that really struggles with this?

Yeah. It can't just be about our own pleasure. At some point in time, we've got to be cognizant of the fact that this trips up a ton of people. In the book, I talk about like these principles because people say, oh, I can drink as long as I don't get drunk. And I talk about, well, you also need to consider, is there someone there that struggles?

Is there someone there that struggles with legalism? Or, you know, that they say, hey, I don't, your freedom is going to hinder my relationship with God because I don't think you should take it. And that's one we never consider, but the scripture speaks to. And so I just kind of go through these principles to think through.

And it usually surprises people like, oh, I thought it was just, I'm just not supposed to get drunk. Well, I would say this as we close. JP, thanks. Yeah, I love you guys. I'm so thankful to be here with you. I mean, thanks for being on Family Life Today, but thanks for being a part of Art of Marriage.

I can't imagine how God's going to use this. And you could have said no. And you said, I want to help marriages. So thank you. And Brian, thank you for all the work you put in.

I know there's a lot of hours. Yeah. And it really isn't just me. I mean, it's that we got a great team of people working on it. I think about my buddy Ed who's been helping us with this and we've been, and right now media and the artists, the poets that came alongside and crafted up this great poem for every session and the animators and the other voices that are on it. And so I think with that symphony of the whole body of Christ trying to paint the picture of what God's intention was for marriage, we're not going to do that perfectly. But I think with this version, we really say God wants our marriage to experience oneness. And the only way we do that is if we reflect the oneness of God.

So what are some of the characteristics of God that we could actually live out on a daily basis? And so we talk about his steadfast love. We talk about forgiveness. We talk about agape, sacrificial love. We talk about debak, which is this Hebrew word that means to cleave and to cling to one another through the highs and lows of life. We talk about the word yada, which is the Hebrew word for intimacy. And we like to joke we're not bringing sexy back, we're bringing intimacy back.

It's about being fully known and fully loved. And that's what you want when you got married. You get married so you can have sex. You got married so you could have intimacy.

And what does that really look like? And we've got some great voices there, Julie Slattery and others that are just fantastic on that. But then on top of that, it wasn't just to live happily ever after. It was to be God's euangelion, which is the Greek word for gospel, good news. That our marriage, your marriage, my marriage is to be on mission. And that we get to bring the grace and the nature of God to all of those around us. So how can every marriage be on mission?

And so you can do that by just starting with the art of marriage. Saying, hey guys, let's come talk about, you know, we're struggling in our marriage. I don't know if you guys are. We got this video, we're going to watch it and have a conversation about it. Invite some people over. It's that easy.

Have some food. I'm just excited about what I think God's going to do through this. You guys are warriors for the kingdom. Don't you feel so honored to be on this path with them?

Oh, I do. I mean, I feel honored that we're part of our marriage because I know how God used it last time. And it's just so amazing technology that God's given us that you never think somebody's going to put something like that in their car and invite people over there or they're going to be invited over and they're going to find Jesus. And he's going to save their marriage.

But he's just as importantly going to save a legacy because it's going to be kids and grandkids. I just was talking to a guy and they've been leading on a marriage now for nine years. And they had like 23 couples that were in this home. And they were they just got through the day and 13 people came to Christ.

Let's go. You know, what else is it's like? What did Dennis Rainey like to say? Marriage is one of the greatest Trojan horses for the gospel because people may not go to church, but they want their relationships to work. So they may not come to Harris Creek, your church, but they might come to your kitchen around your kitchen and around in your living room and talk about marriage. Yes. What if God used you to bring your friends and neighbors to Christ? He can.

Isn't that amazing? And he wants to. And an easy in with people is to help them in their marriages and relationships. And the art of marriage is the perfect resource to start those conversations that can lead someone into God's kingdom of light. Let's do it.

Let's do it together. I'm Shelby Abbott and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Baklouda and Brian Goins on Family Life Today. You know, we've been talking about the art of marriage all day today, and we hope you were able to join us last night for the art of marriage live preview event to learn why your marriage matters, because it does. But if you missed it, art of marriage preorders are happening right now. So you can go reserve your copy and get more amazing teaching from people like Jonathan Baklouda, Aaron and Jamie Ivey, Vivian Mabuni, and so much more.

You can go to our link in the show notes to find out how to preorder your copy of the new art of marriage. Jonathan Baklouda has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? This is a book that really helps you to practice virtues that are not just something that you do.

It's something that's done in you slowly but surely by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. So whether you're 18 years old or you're 80 years old, it's never too late to redefine what's important to you and reclaim a life of virtue. This book is going to help you with that, and it's going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially. So you can go online to familylifetoday.com or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

Again, that number is 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you'd like to. Our address is Family Life, 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida, 32832. Now tomorrow on Family Life Today, I'm going to be in the studio with Dave and Ann Wilson. We're going to listen to portions of my conversation with my friend Brian, who's been a fellow sufferer in life. It's going to be from my family life podcast, Real Life Loading. Did you know that I host a podcast for 18 to 28 year olds?

Yes, I do. And I know that you're already subscribed. But in case that you aren't, you can find a link in the show notes to get easy access to real life loading. We're going to talk about all of that tomorrow and so much more. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.