Comfort Through the Valley

When couples are experiencing infertility, there's often stress and strain on their own relationship. Matthew Arbo says part of the reason for that is because it's natural for us to look around to ask who to blame for the struggle we're experiencing. We want that. We want to explain it. Somebody's responsible. Where are we going to fix responsibility?

And we have some sense of release, right? Some sort of catharsis, bizarre catharsis that comes from blaming someone. And then both end up retreating to themselves, the communication channels break down, and the marriage just implodes. And if it happens that, say, the clinician discovers that it's attributable one way or another, then that adds further problem.

Because then we know what the problem is, the source of the problem, and that becomes the subject. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.

I'm Bob Lapine. How can husbands and wives come together and pursue oneness with each other in the midst of a struggle like infertility? We're going to talk more about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. I don't think I realized this when we first got married, but Mary Ann wanted to be a mom pretty quick. And again, I don't think I knew it when we first got married. I don't think I knew it when she was wanting it. Except I do remember we got married in 1979, and we did not have our first child until 1981.

And most people will go, well, that's a good gap. But there was a trip we were on. We were driving from Tulsa to Kansas City, and she was crying on the trip. And she was saying, I don't understand why God would give me the desire to want to be a mom and why we can't conceive. And I was a young, dumb husband, like, well, you know, it'll happen or whatever.

I mean, I was in no rush, no hurry, but this was an ache in her heart that took me a little bit by surprise. We were ultimately able to conceive then. We had what's called secondary infertility, which is after conceiving, we had a long period where we were not able to conceive again, and we went through the same kind of pain that she was feeling wanting to be a mom for a second time. People look at us, and we got five kids, and they go, well, you didn't have any issues with infertility. But more couples than you know are struggling with the heartache of wanting to be parents.

And for whatever reason, God has not opened the door for that. And I think most of us have a story like that. Maybe it's not us, but it's someone we know. And I know for Dave and I, it was with our son and his wife. We were so excited when they told us they were pregnant.

I mean, it was a big deal, wasn't it? And then they miscarried, and then they miscarried again. And by the third time, you begin to lose hope, and you're so fearful that you're not real sure how to respond. Yeah, I'm not sure I've ever seen the depth of pain.

And despair. Watching your son and daughter-in-law go through from a distance, and yet it's your family. So, man, you talk about the topic we're talking about today is real. It's hard. Well, and we've got somebody here to help us walk through the issues of infertility. In fact, that's the name of the book he's written.

It's called Walking Through Infertility. Matthew Arbo joins us. Matthew, welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for having me. Matthew is a professor. He teaches at Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma. He teaches, what is it, ethics? Yeah, Christian ethics. And are they paying attention?

Sometimes. I mean, as you bring up ethical issues, because you're talking about very real, very contemporary issues, are a lot of these kids locking on and going, we need to think about these things? Yeah, they are very interested.

Yeah, I would think if I'm a college student, that would be one of the classes I would sign up for. I mean, that sounds like fireworks, and we're going to discuss, and we're going to have different opinions, and there's going to be tension. Is that true in the room? Yeah, it's like that. Yeah, it's fun. And Matthew, you're younger as far as a college professor, and I bet students really love that.

I think so. Well, on the subject of infertility, interesting given the fact that you could be writing on all kinds of social, cultural, philosophical issues. This is the one you locked onto to write this book, and part of that is out of a personal story, not for you and your wife, but with your brother, right?

Yeah, that's right. My younger brother and his wife were infertile for a number of years. That was a difficult time for them, and we didn't then really know what to say or what to do.

You want to do something. You want to say what they need to hear, and there's really very little you can do or say that really lives up to the moment, because you're not with them when they turn the lights out and they're laying in bed, and those thoughts just come flooding in. Or when they're at the grocery store and they hear a child cry or laugh on the other aisle, these sort of tangible moments, and you can't be there for those.

But you can listen, as we learned to do, I think, was learned how to listen, learned how to forbear, learned how to be patient with them. How did you even become aware that they were wrestling with infertility? It's not the kind of thing that people wear a badge saying we're infertile, and somebody's been married for two or three years. You don't know whether they're childless by choice or whether they're going through infertility. No, that's exactly right, and that's one of the common features of this experience is it's undiscussed. It's untalked about for some very obvious reasons, which some parts of our lives we just keep private and don't want to talk about that. But there's also stigma, cultural stigma, associated with it, and some don't want to talk about that at all.

They're more private. But with my brother, we were very close, so he was open. He told me what was going on and in what ways he could, and I just cried with him. I prayed with him. He was pretty communicative. I didn't have to draw him out so much.

He's usually kind of a heart on the sleeve sort of guy. And what was the next step? Because to write a book, you have to be passionate because it takes work and effort and research. So what happened in you that made you think, I need to write this? It really actually was a conversation with a former pastor of mine in Kansas City, and he had explained to me that there's some couples in our church that were experiencing infertility, and that there's not a lot at the time of great stuff out there.

He didn't know what to sort of give them. And so he was asking me about that, and then I started thinking, you know, I've had this personal story with my brother, and I know some of these people we're talking about. And what could I say in words? I'm sometimes not so great in personal conversation and what I want to say and what things come to me.

But when I get writing, it slows me down, and I can say something that I really feel like I can say the right way. And that got me thinking about a little book like this where I just give a sense of the shape. And also a big part of it sort of helped those particularly couples that are going through it. The books would help enlarge in their world a little bit because it's just so totalizing. The experience when they're in it is so totalizing.

They just feel that it sort of takes up all the oxygen in that period of life. What I wanted to do in the book was just help giving a bigger picture. Well, tell me this. So go back to when your brother has that initial conversation where, you know, obviously you can probably sense he's unveiling something that's oftentimes kept a secret. He doesn't share.

He shares it with you. What's the emotion in the room? What did you feel? I felt sad for him. I felt powerless.

There's nothing I can do. Did you have any kids at the time? Not yet. Not yet.

But very soon. And then that became something, too. When we conceived, I sort of made a special slot to talk to him on the phone and tell him what was going on.

And he was so happy for us, of course, you know. But I wanted to be sensitive to what they're going through. So the feelings are, even though they're on the telephone, we're not close to each other, there's still like the pauses and the strain, you know, that comes up in a conversation like that.

And I just felt for him. We have these desires for children, and they're deep. They're deep, and they almost feel like biological, you know.

They're just part of us, these wants. So it's really hard to sort of be with someone knowing that there's little you can do except be present. I'm thinking about the number of times I've talked to young couples, maybe they've been married three or four years, no kids showing up. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking, so what's going on here? My wife will nudge me and say, don't ask what's going on. And I'm thinking, no, I want to know. If they're struggling, I want to struggle with them.

If they're not, I want to nudge them and say, well, let's get on with the show and have some kids here. The truth is, Bob's nosy. That's it. He wants to stick his nose in your business. We call it intentionally intrusive.

Oh, there you go. But with a redemptive purpose attached to it, okay? Is that better than nosy?

It's the same thing. In terms of posture, for those of us who may know couples, and we don't know whether they're dealing with infertility, we don't know whether they're childless by choice, we don't know the dynamics, do we just keep our mouth shut or do we say something? Yeah, that's a great question. I think if there is a sufficient level of trust and rapport where a question like that could be received, even like a kind of jocular way, and the kind of venue is right, absolutely. But if it's more public and that rapport is not there, couples who are experiencing prolonged infertility, if they're asked that, it's deeply wounding. Those who have talked to me about that. And people mean well.

You know, folks at church asking, you know, where are you guys going to have a family in a year? Or grandparents, you know, eager to be grandparents. And the couple, it's not that from lack of trying, they just can't. And so that's itself wounding, that there's a recognition now. It's not just our own problem, right? Our own recognition, but now others see that we don't have children. And you said there's some shame attached to it in the hearts of people who are trying to conceive and can't? They feel like there's something wrong with them? That's very regularly the case.

So common, it's ubiquitous that, well, I'm a human being. And one thing that human beings seem to be good at is reproducing. They don't have to be really told much about that.

We can do that. And when we're not able to, it seems like a sort of biological failure. And we know medically and scientifically now lots of reasons why a couple can't conceive or have trouble. But from that person's point of view, it feels like a failure. And it feels like you're not able to do a basic thing that human beings have been doing successfully for millennia. And you also wrote in the book a little bit about, okay, if I'm a Christ follower, and this could be for a non-Christ follower as well, there's even a sense of God betraying me, almost punishment, what have I done wrong?

That was what Mary Ann was saying. If I'm trying to play by the rules here, I'm trying to do what God wants, why would He withhold from me what is a blessing for so many and what's the longing of my heart? And I would think there would be a real introspection then. Like, what's wrong with me? God, is there something wrong? Have I done something?

Is this because of my past? And so there's probably a lot of questioning going on. And I think it would be very easy for that to go into our identity instead of, oh, I can't have a child.

Then it goes into, I'm broken, something's wrong with me. So did you walk through some of that with your brother and sister-in-law? A little bit. My brother is very mature in the faith. He's a minister and had good support.

His situation wasn't quite so vexed. The pastoral advice and counsel and support, from my point of view anyway, wasn't that necessary. But I've had some other friends in the past for whom that's been difficult, and it did require very sensitive discussion. And what do you do with somebody like that who's feeling that way? How do you help them recognize that we live in a fallen world, but this doesn't mean that you're a worthless or a broken person? Yeah, and one of the first things I say, as sincere as I can and I mean it, is I'm so sorry you're having to go through that. And just to just tell them that it's hard and to let them know that I can see in what ways that I can, that it's hard. And not give any answers? Initially, yeah, that's right.

Yeah. And not feel like I've got an arsenal of possibilities for them and that I can fix it. They very likely, if they've come to this point of telling me, they've talked to people. They've seen clinicians.

They've taken steps. I'm not going to tell them anything they haven't heard, but one thing that maybe they are lacking in is someone to be present to them. What does that look like to be present, you know? In practice, it can be something like maybe getting the guy, maybe getting the guy and just having some direct conversation, direct questions. How are you doing?

What's going on? And just drawing them out so that they don't have to shelter under that experience and the weight of it by themselves. So I talk to pastors a lot about this. I've been talking to our elders about this, about how to just be with people. It takes just sticking to it. And one of the things we want to do is fix and want to have the tools for fixing. But in this case, the best thing you can do is just listen sometimes.

Just listen to someone grieve aloud about their miscarriage. Yeah, the thing that struck me as I read through your book, you just talked about the present part. But let me go back to the first thing that struck me earlier was the things not to say.

Yeah. Seriously, you mentioned many different just pat answers. I think I've said them at times and how harmful it can be. Talk about that a little bit. What don't you say to somebody that's really struggling?

It might not just be infertility, but definitely this topic as well. Yeah, I mean, God has a plan for you, which is, of course, true. I mean, a person of faith who's following Jesus, I think, believes that God has a plan for them.

The question, kind of as we start with the story beginning, is it's not that they don't realize this. It's just there's a disjunct, right? And it's trying to interpret what this disjunct means. God loves me. God wants this thing for me. I have this thing that I want, and it's not happening.

And I can't make it happen. I have my own resolve here. So that's one thing. God's got a plan.

Of course, he does. But let's not use that as a way of explaining away the deep difficulty or grief that someone would feel in that moment. Don't pull Romans 8.28 out of your pocket and say, you know, God causes all things to work together for good. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah, or to say something like, you know, well, you must have unrepentant sin or something similar.

Oh, that's a good one. You know, I mean, I've heard some horror stories of what individuals have been told by folks who think that they've kind of got some answer or platitude. There's a strain of thinking that says it must be a faith issue with you, right? Yeah, and it's totally understandable why those happen. You can see why, in a moment of difficulty and of disclosure, not really having the emotional, maybe your spiritual ability in the moment, right, to just say or not say, right, that thing. And just to say, I'm so sorry, you know. I was going to ask that. You know, if I'm that person receiving that news and I feel so awkward, I don't know what to say, you would say, one of the things is don't say anything.

You don't need to give an answer or a response. Just be there. Did you, with your daughter-in-law, when they were going through infertility and miscarriages, I know you said, I'm so sorry.

Beyond that, how did you try to interact with her and minister to her and help her? I think one of the things that Dave and I did was we said, how can we pray for you? How can we help you? How can we be there for you?

Just asking those questions. And honestly, there's such a helpless feeling when you're on the outside. And there's an awkwardness, too, of knowing, is this the right thing?

And I don't want to hurt you more. And so, I thought it was really sweet that they would, like Austin and Kendall even asked me to come in and just cook, clean. It's almost like so they could grieve. And they're not only just grieving the present, but they're grieving of what may not happen, their hopes and their dreams.

And so, just to give them that space, but also to be right there in case we could do anything. And I think that prayer thing is a big deal because we were so consistent in seeking God and asking God, and isn't this the Bible? Think of all the women in the Bible that could not conceive. And then it was even more of a stigma in that era. But it still is.

It still is very, very hard and very difficult. And we've even seen circumstances where the marriage is lost because of it. Because there's so much emotion, there's so much pain, that if you don't bring that together, it can really tear you apart. On that latter point, I mean, one very common experience for couples that go through infertility is to see marital strain very quickly and blaming. Blaming is corrosive to any relationship, especially the marital one.

And we want that. We want to explain it. Somebody's responsible.

Where are we going to fix responsibility? And we have some sense of release, right? Some sort of catharsis, bizarre catharsis that comes from blaming someone. But the marriage just implodes. And then both end up retreating to themselves. The communication channels break down. And it can destroy the sex life. Just destroy it.

Destroy it. Unpack that a little bit. Why is this such a challenge for couples in their marital intimacy? I think couples deeply want to be heard by each other in earnest, truthful ways. And with this particular subject, because it's so deeply felt personally, and if it happens that, say, the clinician discovers that it's attributable one way or another, then that adds further problem. Because then we know what the problem is, the source of the problem, and that becomes the subject. If I'm the husband, and my wife desperately wants to be a mom, and I'm the one who's keeping that from happening, I mean, how do you build intimacy and oneness in a marriage when I'm the one keeping you from your dream?

Yeah, you are the source that undercuts hopes, you know, and a source of hopelessness. And that's why communication, as I kind of mentioned this a bit in the book, disclosing communication about what's happening as it's happening, and then also letting friends in. That's really tough. But that advice is essential.

How would you do that? How would someone go about letting someone in? Yeah, I mean, hopefully there are friends who are real friends, and who will be there as friends. And those folks who disappear when it's tough, they're just not friends.

Call them what they are, they're not. But those who are, there's the willingness and the risk of saying, here's what happened to me, and here's what happened to us, and I'm really hurt, and I don't know what to say to him, I don't know what to do at church, I don't feel like going out, I'm angry at God. And what a friend will do, just saying that, what a real friend will do is they'll mourn with you, and they'll grieve with you, and will say that this is terrible, and maybe everything's not going to, quote unquote, be all right.

But we can rest in the fact of God's love in Christ, and we can rest in the fact that He's given us one another in community, as in bonds of church, and then we can persevere. And then the next day or the next week, the increased letting in, but that trust, the initial trust there is really important. You know, something that hit me when I was reading the book was in the back when you interview your brother with these great questions you're walking through. It's really helpful for the reader, because like, how do I respond?

And you ask all the questions that need to be asked. And so you realize, oh, this story that's in the book, this fictional couple is a real couple, and it's really personal to you because it's your brother. And one of the things that I found very profound was, you know, you discover in these questions they actually did get pregnant and have a stillbirth. And so it's horrific, because now hope finally, and then they get all the way to the, and it's, oh, you're just so, and again, I mean, you lived through it.

Before I read you what I want to read, tell me what that was like. That was particularly with Gary. So Gary was stillborn, and he had passed away in utero, and Patrick and Jennifer made the decision, the hard decision, to name Gary and to have a sort of memorial for him.

And they still talk about him every once in a while, you know, when his birthday was. And, you know, when it happened, there was nothing to do but grieve and to cry together. And I wasn't there in the moment. I think at that time we were living elsewhere good ways away, but that was deeply, deeply painful. And there's just no other thing to say about, in terms of just as a family, our grief for that loss.

And Patrick and Jennifer were really heroic and faithful throughout that process and really proud of them. Yeah, you write this, but when I was reading it last night, I read it out loud to Ann. I'm like, you've got to hear this response where Patrick says I couldn't answer the phone.

It gives you just a glimpse into the devastation. I could not answer the phone. He even says, it sounds ridiculous, but I could not answer the phone. So all these voicemails stack up, right? And then one of his best friends, Keith, let me read you what you wrote. It's just, he said, one of the difficult things for me unexpectedly was answering the phone.

It sounds so simple and ridiculous now, but the enormity of the task in the weeks after the miscarriage was staggering. Voicemails piled up unanswered, though not altogether neglected. I can't express how comforting it was to receive the following sort of message from my brother or best friend, Keith. Hey buddy, you didn't answer.

That's okay, really. I'm going to keep calling because I want you to know that I'm here and that I love you. But there's no pressure to answer the phone. When the time is right for you, ring me or answer, but not a moment sooner. I'll keep leaving you a message every few days because I just want you to know you're on my heart and in my mind and in my prayers. I love you, pal. I mean, that's a beautiful picture of that's what you do. That's a pretty perfect response, isn't it?

It is. As you were talking about the kinds of relationships, the trusted relationships that are necessary to walk someone through this, we have a phrase we use at our church that we borrowed from Paul David Tripp who said, Christian community needs to be people who have grace-based, Christ-centered, intentionally intrusive, redemptive relationships. And I love that because it starts with grace. I'm going to have grace for you. You're going to have grace for me.

We're not going to be each other's judge. We're going to give grace to one another. We're going to be Christ-focused. We're going to be intentionally in each other's lives.

And I'm going to be asking you nosy questions, and you're going to ask me nosy questions. And we have that privilege with one another because we know that the reason for that is redemption. We have these relationships because we're both longing for the redemptive work of Jesus in our lives. When you know that's the basis of a relationship, now you can be honest and vulnerable and transparent, knowing this person's going to give me grace. We're both focused on Christ. Their goal is redemption.

That's my goal. So, yeah, I'll tell you what's going on with me. You can tell me what's going on with you, and we can walk this path together. And I think the important person not to miss in this is Jesus and our relationship with God because he's always there. And we can be mad at him. We can be upset.

We can be disappointed. We can be angry. And yet, I think to go to him and to vent that, to be able to express that, to be able to express our disappointment and our anger, he is all about knowing our hearts and our confession of truth. And I think that we can't bypass the importance of his peace that surpasses all understanding and that guards our hearts and our minds in Christ Jesus. That, for me, is where I've gone so many times when I've been grieving and upset and mad.

And he miraculously comes in and hears me and hears my complaint. And just like David in the Psalms, by the end, I can say, but I still trust you. And that's the important point because, yes, we can go there.

We should. The Psalms give us direction on how to do that in our pain and our suffering, to be honest with God about that, to be honest with others. We just can't dwell there forever.

We just can't say, this is where I'm living now. The psalmist didn't. He found his way back to God and back to some sense of peace. Now, he might the next day be back in the ditch again. He might the next hour, minute.

Right. But he's not saying, this is my new address. He's saying, this is where I am, but I've got to get back to where God wants me to be. And the interesting thing in your book is that's where you really go. Where's God in the middle of this? What's God up to?

We haven't even talked about that yet, so that's why we've got to continue this conversation. We want to point people to your book. It's called Walking Through Infertility, a great guide for folks who are going through this themselves, for those who want to compassionately come alongside family members, friends, people in your church, walk the path with them. We've got copies of the book in our Family Life Today Resource Center.

You can go online to order your copy. Again, the title is Walking Through Infertility, Biblical, Theological, and Moral Counsel for Those Who Are Struggling by Matthew Arbo. Order your copy from us online at familylifetoday.com or call to order at 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY. I sometimes wish those of you who are regular listeners and those of you who support the Ministry of Family Life Today, I wish you could see the prayer requests that come from listeners. We regularly invite our friends and supporters to contact us if we can be praying for them.

And issues like we've talked about today, infertility and a variety of marriage and family issues, whether it's substance abuse or domestic violence or turbulent times with teenagers, we're hearing from people who are letting us know about the ongoing challenges they're facing day in and day out in their marriages and in their families. Our mission at Family Life is to provide help and hope for people who are seeking to follow the Lord and to have the kind of marriage and family that honors and glorifies God. It's our mission to effectively develop godly marriages and families. I just want to say thank you to those of you who support this ministry. On behalf of the hundreds and thousands of people who have joined us today to listen, thank you for making this program possible for them, for us. We are so grateful for your partnership with this ministry.

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We're going to talk about some of the lies we are tempted to believe when we go through challenges like infertility. Matthew Arbo is our guest again tomorrow. Hope you can be here with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas. A crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.