This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. And we're just grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. And to learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Hi. The role of a grandparent is to be a hope giver.
To benchmark future generations to go back to that my Papa and Mimi or grandpa, whatever you want to call it, by the grace of God and His sustaining power, they represent in their lives what I need to be. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.
Well, we've got two distinguished gentlemen in the studio today. Besides me, of course. Yeah, you're distinguished. Dr. Crawford the Ritz is in the house.
Dr. Larry, you're not a doctor, are you? I'm not a doctor. Larry Fowler, you and I, we're not doctors, you know? Yeah, so we can go a lot of places, but I think we're going legacy.
Yeah. And grandparenting and marriage and parenting, all that area. Larry, this is perfect because share with our listeners who have probably heard you before. What do you do? I'm the founder of a ministry called Legacy Coalition.
And we work to equip and inspire Christian grandparents to be intentional about passing on their faith. I say often, you know, probably 99% of pastors think about equipping parents. You know, they'll have a sermon series or a class or something on where you did it. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.
But I also think 99% of pastors never think about equipping grandparents. But grandparents have an incredible. Potential for influence and is worthy of some attention. And that's one of the things we want to do. Give grandparents their just recognition.
And I would say, too, if you're a listener and you're not a grandparent yet, tune in because these gentlemen are some great fathers and grandfathers.
So you're going to hear tips for both of those. Yeah, and Crawford, you've been a grandparent. How many kids?
Well, we have four adult children. They have families. We've got 11 grandchildren. Yeah, this whole idea of legacy, everybody's gonna leave a legacy and I think we make it more difficult than it really is. But one of the things I love about Larry and the legacy coalition, he he prods us toward being intentional about it and not being passive.
And if you're gonna leave one, you better have the right harbor in mind and where you wanna hit things and how you can leverage what God's given to you.
Well, let's talk about that. How do you get intentional? How about your legacy? Because you're right. I mean, everybody's leaving one.
I don't think most people literally think: what am I doing? How am I leaving this? How do I want to hit the right harbor? Talk to us. How do we do this?
Well, let's first contrast what is intentional contrasted with. Probably for Christian grandparents, it's contrasted with hopeful. Christian grandparents are hopeful. that their children and their grandchildren will be in heaven with them someday, right? They're hopeful.
But intentional is the opposite. Hopeful means You don't really act on it. Intentional means that you're going to do some things. You're going to think through what am I going to do? How am I going to act?
How am I going to relate in such a way that the Holy Spirit can use my influence to impact them for eternity? Larry, how many kids do you have and grandkids? I have two kids. I have seven grandchildren, two great-grandchildren, and one bonus great-grandchildren. Oh, my goodness.
So, and two grandchildren in law.
So, my clan, depending on how you count, is, but I have 12, 12 that are that third generation.
Now, is this something you guys have been thinking about from young? When you were first married? Or is this Where's the start? I don't mean to sound abstract here, but I think one of the missing ingredients when we think about grandparenting and that kind of thing is that we need to have a right theology about life. about meaning and purpose.
Why are we created? What is our role? I think theologically and biblically, You know, our role is to pass on. The image of God, God's purposes and plan from one generation to the next. The way to become intentional is to become informed.
What is it? Why are we here? What makes us pound the table and weep? What's the stewardship of our love? What do we hope for?
And I think those are the banks of the river in terms of creating an intentional relationship and steps to make that happen. Yeah, so when you say we're here to pass on the image, where do you get that from? I get that from Genesis chapter 1. God created mankind in his image. And three times he says in that one brief paragraph, and what is image?
It's like him. And we're to represent who he is. And his plan and his purposes for generations to come, right during the context of human history. And that's what it's really all about. And then you fast forward to Psalm 78, verses 5 through 7.
Now, admittedly, the context there, Asaph is talking about the nation of Israel representing a family.
However, the two things that will give impetus to the future is the character of God and the content of scripture. When he says that he's established a testimony and appointed a law, and that's what he places in our hands. And so you don't have to be a scholar. But you do have to love God's word and love God himself. And that's what we want to place in the hands of succeeding generations.
Do you guys feel like you are intentional as fathers with your children? Like how Oh. How was that passed down to you? Because, Crawford, you've been preaching this for a long time. And Larry, I'm guessing you have some of that too.
I was intentional as a father, but it didn't click for me that I had a specific role and responsibility as a grandfather.
So you felt like, okay, I'm done.
Well, yeah, back to the Psalm 78 passage. We use a different word to describe that. And it's not pass on faith, it's perpetuate faith. Yes, that's a great word.
So perpetuate's a better word to describe there because there are four generations mentioned in those verses. And I always thought, okay, I needed to pass on faith to my kids, and then it was their job to pass it on to their kids and so forth. Kind of like a relay baton handoff in track and field, right? But we've learned that it's different than that, that there's an overlap. And the overlap is a generational overlap.
So I not only have a responsibility. According to Deuteronomy 4:9, as a father, I also have a responsibility as a grandfather. That's that overlap. that I think we've been missing for so long. We can't stop running.
We can't stop running. It's never over. Because there's a part of me that's like I give the baton, I'm like, oh. I'm done. Yeah.
And I think we have a generation of grandparents that have done that. They're done. Even Christian grandparents stop and become spectators. I just raise the kids the way I hope to raise them in the faith, and now it's their job to pass it on. And I'm sort of going to watch.
No, that's not what we're supposed to do. Right. Yeah, but we're also to be the portraits of the desired destination at which future generations should arrive. You know, everything that God does is incarnational. It's not just about the right plans, it's about being the destination.
The role of a grandparent is to be a hope giver. To benchmark future generations to go back to that, my Papa and Mimi or grandpa, whatever you want to call it, by the grace of God and his sustaining power, they represent in their lives what I need to be.
So you have to, it's more than just articulating a strategy or plan or these, those things are important, it's being this. It's benchmarking them. That's the key, I think, to all of this. It's not just transactional, it's transformational. Yeah.
Well, it's interesting. I had one of our grandkids, one of seven, in the car with me a couple of days ago. I told him the story, and man, kids love stories. Grandkids love stories, don't they? And this grandson loves his poppy.
And so I said, hey, have you ever heard how Poppy and I really kind of met?
So I told him this story of how I had prayed to meet Dave Wilson because I knew he could help me to grow spiritually. And the same night, it's kind of a miraculous story. The same night, Poppy. Had realized his girlfriend of four years liked another guy. And so Poppy went home, got on his knees, said, Jesus, I'm going to follow you the rest of my life.
I'll do anything you want me to. And the same night, I said, the same night, Bryce, I was working in a factory shooting screws into dishwasher doors on an assembly line, praying that same prayer. Jesus, I give you any everything. I'll do anything you want. And at the end of my prayer, I prayed to meet Poppy.
And at the end of his prayer, he said, If you could run me into Ann Barron, maybe she could help. me find somebody who could disciple me. And he says, What happened next? And I said, We met the next day. That's the picture of here's where it started for us generationally.
For Dave and I, we didn't grow up in homes that really followed Jesus, but we started this, and we want those stories. And these kids, man, you guys know this. These kids eat up that stuff at certain ages. They get a little older, maybe not so much, but at that age. And then I told him, and I remember the day your dad called me from college and he said, Mom, I just met this girl and I think I'm going to marry her.
And he said, Was that mommy? I'm like, Yes.
So that's what, like, to be intentional means. We just aren't making them happy and buying them fun things, but we're giving that legacy and part of what we've experienced with Jesus to them. And you talk about stories.
So does the Bible. Yes. You know, the first command to grandparents. It doesn't have the word grandparent in it, but it's in Exodus chapter 10, verse 2. And right in the middle of the plagues of Egypt, God says, You tell your children and your grandchildren about what I have done here.
That theme is repeated over and over again, telling stories. In fact, Psalm 78 is a whole story, isn't it? It absolutely doesn't pull any punches about the bad stuff in the nation of Israel. But we're to be storytellers, and grandfathers in particular, I think, are often storytellers, but they forget the faith component. Yes.
And that's where the intentionality comes in: to make sure that when you're sharing your story, you're thinking, How did God fit into this? Event in my life, this experience in my life, and make sure that you include that in your stories. I mean, how important do you guys think it is for our grandkids, and obviously our kids too, to know our spiritual journey? Like that story.
Some parents never tell their kids or their grandkids. How important is it that they know the foundational story? I don't know, Crawford, you came from this godly legacy. Yeah, we didn't, but I've heard your story from the stage when we were young, I think, first four or five years of our marriage. In one sense, we are a legacy of you.
Yes. I mean, you have your own family legacy, but you know, as you spoke and preached the word of God, I'm like, this man has changed my life. I've never had a father figure. I remember it was at staff training, and you were teaching a class. Oh, my goodness.
And Dave and I went to our dorm, and I remember us saying, We want that. That's what we want. Yeah. You know, the power of stories is not what makes it compelling, especially that story about your grandson, that deeply moves me. But it moves him because the statement that's being made is that this is who we are.
It's a statement of identity. You know, and when you tell the story, this becomes normative, not abnormal. It's normal for us to love the Lord Jesus. It's normal for us to love God's word. That's who we are.
This is who we are. And so I think the more you can tell those stories, and not only that, it's a commissioning, too. Yeah. Yeah. It really is.
I mean, I can't tell you. My dad, you know, this story is about my great-grandfather, Peter. Peter, who was a slave. We don't know anything about his parents. We can't figure it out.
But somewhere along the line, he gave his heart to Jesus, couldn't read, couldn't write. But he had the family lore is he had memorized huge portions of scripture because he would make his children and grandchildren read to him favorite passages over and over and over and over and over again. My dad remembers him. My father was born in 1914, and Peter lived to be an old man. He would rock and sing back and forth.
His love for the Lord Jesus. And his model just launched generations. And despite Jim Crow and all the stuff that was going on there in the South during that time, there was a sense of rootedness. Why was that so? Because there was a sense of stability, because of the hope of the gospel.
And that hope of the gospel was not just verbalized, it was seen. Seen in a man who was a former slave that loved Jesus, and it launched generations. As I tell this story so often, I took Brian, I would never forget this back to the old cemetery where Peter's buried. This was just a few years ago, several years ago, and I said, Point out all of his great uncles and aunts and my grandparents. And I said, These people paid your tuition.
in the sense of this is who these ordinary people are yeah The stories of what God can do creates hope in future generations. It benchmarks that. And to be able to look at my dad. And him say to me when I was screwing up as a young boy, say, look, buddy, you came from someplace. And you need to go somewhere and sing his model and the model of my grandparents, and all the way back.
So it should be normal for us. And that's where the intentionality comes at. It's not a strategy, although strategies are important. And this guy right here is doing some incredible things and materials that are being produced and the tools that are there and all of that stuff. That's terribly important.
But it comes out of um You shape the future generations on your knees. That's the way you shape future generations, and you become worth emulating. And the rest is just icing on the cake. Yeah, what a great phrase. Worth emulating.
Yeah. Is your life worth emulating? What does that look like for you guys in terms of on your knees? I mean, is that just something you talk about, or is that something you do?
Well, I don't get down on my knees as much because it's too hard to get back up. I get it. Yeah. Well, let me be transparent. When I was young in ministry, I was a doer, and I didn't pray near as much as I should have, much as I knew that I should have.
And as I've gotten older, I've become far more persuaded of the necessity to pray? And of the power of prayer? I become much more bold in my prayers, especially for my kids and for my grandkids, more passionate in my prayer because I want them in heaven with me. I've learned a lot through the years about the value of prayer. For us, in terms of our family, I guess one of the things that's changed for me is that we've learned to be so much more regular in our prayer for them.
Some of our family members that we are concerned about the most, we pray for every single time. I mean, if we're praying before a meal starts, we have family members that every single time we mention them in our prayer.
So we want to be real consistent for that. Hey friends, Ron Deal here, Director of Family Life Blended. Did you know Blended and Blessed? The only worldwide live stream designed for couples and blended families is free this year, Saturday, April 18th. We're going to be live in Oklahoma City.
If you show up there, we're going to charge you for lunch. But other than that, it is free. live stream. Churches can bring a group of couples together and enjoy the day. Absolutely free.
Gayla Grace is going to be with us. Davey and Christy Blackburn. Cheryl Shoemake is going to be with us. Kathy Lipp and Brian Goens, our MC. It's going to be a wonderful day.
I hope you can join us. Learn more and get the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. You know, Larry, I don't know as much about your legacy handed to you. I know Crawford's a little bit. Is yours a godly legacy that you're continuing?
Yes, my parents and my grandparents were all believers, strong believers. My mom was. She was the most godly woman that that I've ever been involved with. My dad died when he was sixty eight and I was twenty six.
So I didn't have my dad around a lot. But my mom was so spiritually minded, she wasn't much fun. And we actually.
Well, she couldn't. I think I know these people. She would come to visit us. And the kids would, they would have on like a comedy TV show, and she was like, I don't want to spend my time watching this. She go in the bedroom and study her Bible.
But she missed the opportunity to leverage her deep devotion for the Lord because she didn't think about how to relate to grandkids. But yeah, I have a wonderful, godly legacy. By the way, Dave, let me add this. I think one of the greatest moves you made is I can't remember how old our oldest was when Dave started fasting every Friday for our kids. And he was young.
How old was he? CJ was one years old. He was just born. And I thought I'd do it for a year or two. It's been 30, you know, it's been 40 years.
He just turned 40 this month. Like, you got to be kidding me. And all day long as I get a hunger pang, I'm praying for CJ and then Austin, then Cody, now their wives, now their grandkids, you know, and I'm still doing it. Praying for our legacy.
Now it isn't just our kids, but our grandkids and even our great-grandkids someday. But it's like the power of God. God working. Oh, yeah. There's something for me that's like, look at my man battling on his knees for our family, for our kids and our grandkids.
And I know that he married in each of our kids, he stood before them and as the vows. And I remember each one he said, I've been praying for you, looking at our daughter-in-laws. I've been praying for you before you were born. And man, that is like talk about intentional. It just became a habit for you.
Yeah, and it still is. But I think. Women can do it too. It doesn't have to just be. Yeah, it doesn't have to be a guy, but I think there was a sense in my.
legacy that generational lives handed to me. Was so different to both of you guys. My case, divorce, adultery, abuse, alcohol was all in my dad. And it was ugly. It was not pretty.
He was not a happy drunk. He was a mean drunk. And so that's what I grew up with. And then when I was seven, they divorced. It ended, but now I'm with a single mom.
And then my brother dies. You know, so it was this tragic, traumatic thing. And I remember as Ann and I got married and I came to Christ, it's like, I am stopping. I'm changing the Wilson legacy. We have to stop this.
And guess what? God's given us. The ability to do that.
So, interesting thing is, I always thought I will never become like my dad. That was like my thing in college. I am not going to become like my dad. If you would have walked up to me, you would have said, You're becoming your dad, you're a womanizing, drinking, partying quarterback on the campus. And I wasn't a believer yet.
And I didn't know the Bible says that's what's gonna happen unless somebody in that generational line says no more. It stops here. And that was the day I changed my legacy. And my sons will now say, when dad gave his life to Christ. My whole life was changed.
I don't know if you guys know the song, The Blessing. Yeah. Remember that song? I love it. And I remember hearing that line: May His favor be upon you for a thousand generations to your children and their children.
And I just started weeping. See, this is so incredibly hope-giving, though. Yeah. This is incredibly hope-giving. My mother never knew who her father was.
Karens grew up in a single-parent household, and yet the gospel came crashing into their lives. You see, your past may explain you, but it doesn't excuse you. No. And it doesn't define you. And it doesn't define you.
It is legacies begin when we surrender. And my kids and my grandkids would tell you the influence of their Mimi, my wife, is extraordinary. In terms of the hope of the gospel and what that has meant in her heart and life. Same thing with my mother. My mother prayed every night on her knees out loud.
You know what that would do to a 13, 14, 15-year-old boy walking past his parents' room and him.
So you heard her. Yes. I heard her call my name out. It just does something. Both Karen and I have told our grandkids from the moment they were born that there will never be a day in their lives while we're alive that we will not pray for them.
We will call their names out to God every single day. And none of us are smart enough to create a legacy that's enduring. It's not the product of some big strategy. It is calling on the God of heaven to come in and in mercy and grace to help us with our sinfulness and keep us pointed in the right direction. It is repenting in front of your children and your grandchildren and making things right.
And being a model of what the hope of the grace of God and the gospel can do in succeeding generations, that's where the benchmarking comes. And it's not about legalism either. No. You know, legalistic parents and grandparents don't typically raise godly children or grandchildren. They raise frustrated kids.
Frustrated kids because they're too protective. But it's the people who are surrendered to the love of the Lord Jesus, the grace of God, God has met them in their journey that can come alongside of the next generation and offer that hope to them. And that's where the transforming power resides.
Well, what a special day having Crawford and Larry in the studio. That's fun. We got them back tomorrow, so don't go away. But, you know, we got to speak at the Legacy Coalition Grandparenting Conference, which was epic. And you can watch the whole conference.
Go to familylifeetoday.com, click on the link in the show notes, and that'll send you to be able to watch. It's a life-changing legacy changing. Conference that you don't want to miss. And this isn't a topic that's not really addressed. I can't even think of a place that it's addressed.
Right. So we're looking forward to having you back on Family Life Today tomorrow. We meet a ton of couples who say Family Life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a Family Life partner is all about: helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here. And we'd love for you to join us.
So click the donate button at familylifetoday.com and become a partner today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
