Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Uh Research is clear. Like this isn't just a hunch or a hot take. Research is showing that the more money we spend on our kids in youth sports, the less they actually enjoy it.
We'll let that sink in for a second. The more money we spend on our kids, the data is saying the less fun our kids are actually having. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com.
This is Family Life Today. Ed Juzinski, Brian Smith in the studio. Are you happy they're here? Yeah. We're glad you guys are here.
And we're going to talk about a way game, a book you wrote about youth sports. You know, I endorsed your book, and I think I might have even said this in the endorsement. I don't remember, but I started your book. I couldn't put it down. I read the whole thing because it was so, I think, needed for parents, especially of kids in youth sports.
And here's the thing: I'm not going to tell people how old we are, but we're old. You guys are in your 40s, maybe? 57, dude. There you go. But here's the thing: we bring up the topic of youth sports and memories, and right away we all have strong memories.
And I bet we could. It's the power and pressure that sports brings. Yeah. Like if you're in it, you felt it, but now as parents, I think it's a hard one to navigate because it's all consuming now. For sure.
Different probably than all of us growing up. It's even more. Yeah. And one of the things I was amazed when I picked up your book was you did a sort of a history of how we got to where we are. We're talking about youth sports in a day when most of the time we played in the backyard.
Yeah, sandbox games. Yeah. And then we had a game here and there.
Now, and we have grandkids and I've been there on these fields and it's pressure and it's four or five games a week and practice. And by the way, this conversation isn't just about parents and youth sports. Oh, yeah. Because kids can feel the pressure from us in their academics. Oh, big time.
Grades, theater, musicals, anything. It's not just youth sports. And we are consumed as parents when our kids excel and they feel that. They feel it.
So this is a conversation whether you have a kid in sports or in music or in school. This applies to all of us. And you guys know this. Take us there. Take us how we got here.
Look. The book does not read as a lecture. It reads more like a confessional. Yeah. Because Brian and I looked up at each other a decade ago.
We were already working together in sport ministry with college athletes, but we were both coaching. We both had kids that were entering the youth sport world. And we started having these conversations where it's like, we don't know what we're doing. And we're completely overwhelmed. You're on this fast-moving train that you just had to jump on with your eight-year-old.
You're not exactly sure where it's going, but it doesn't feel like it's to a good place. But we're going. And so we said, there's, you know, as Christians, even how do we think and operate like Christians in this space? You know, we weren't trying to pull ourselves completely out of it. We didn't want to be completely swept up in it.
But then what? There's not a ton of teaching about how you do that well as a Christian.
So we just started to talk about it with each other and started to do our own research, started to gather our own stories, made plenty of our own mistakes. And said, let's start the conversation in the Christian space, or at least add to the little that's there to say, here's a different way forward. Let's be countercultural. In the sports, the use, what we're calling the youth sports industrial complex. Let's find a way to, just like in every other aspect of Christian life, trying to live in a secular society, let's be different.
What would that look like? Yeah, we say from the start we love sports, like we're sports guys. And so when we come at this conversation, it's not like we're saying we need to completely eject from the process or there's. We don't want to go all bad on sport. We really do love all the beautiful moments that sports bring.
And so, what we're trying to help ourselves, but also parents, realize is really two things. One, we want a growing awareness of just what the youth sport industrial complex is so we can have common language for it, categories. We can recognize it when we see it. We can understand what it's trying to do to us, how it's shaping, informing us, and our kids. But we don't want to just complain about it and bemoan just the truth of what it is today.
We want to act Christianly in the space. And so, start by let's have language and categories to understand it, but then let's learn how to use youth sports as a vehicle to actually disciple our kids. And that's a large part of what the book's about, too: is how do you take the moments that are happening on the field, the court, the pool, and turn those into discipleship opportunities? Because whether you're paying $100 or $1,000, it becomes a pretty worthwhile investment if your kids actually learning how to be more patient and learning how to love and learning things like self-control. If all We're doing is throwing all this money into a system and hoping that they become a college athlete.
That's not a good investment. We keep throwing the biblical character Daniel around that we really want to walk in his footsteps and do what he and his friends did. And obviously, they weren't doing anything with youth sports, but they were in an intensely secular culture in Babylon that was completely anti-their God. And they had to make a choice. Were they going to completely separate from it and create a holy huddle over here on the side where they completely distance themselves from it?
On the other extreme, are they just going to say, hey, God doesn't seem to be active right now? Let's just go with the flow. When in Rome do as Romans do, right? We're just going to get swept up in it. No, they stayed right in the middle of it and showed what it looks like to be obediently involved.
They walked with God in the midst of it and locked arms with each other. They didn't try to do it as individuals.
So we think there's something to that too. You know, you lock arms with a handful of other people that are saying on our watch, in our little corner of the bleachers, let's do this different. Is that what away game means? Your title? Largely that it came from the biblical character, Daniel, but also this idea of when you're playing a home game, there's just some like comfort, familiarity.
When you go to an away game, you have to be on your game. Like you don't know where the bathrooms are. I experienced this this year. Any football game you go to, the away section is always like the sun is just shining bright in your face. And you're like, we actually sat with the home side when we were at away games because it's so miserable.
We think a large part of the problem is we, especially as Christian parents, we go into the youth sport experience expecting it to be like a home game feel and expecting to have some semblance of control. And then the rough makes. A bad call, or the coach doesn't give our kid playing time, or our coach messes up, and we learn really quickly: like, we actually don't have any control over the process. And so the whole thing is like this away game. Just expect it to be a little chaotic and out of control.
You guys both have kids. Four. Yeah, four kids. Four Brian has three. Yeah.
Three kids. And I'm assuming they're in sports and we're in sports or are in sports. What was that experience like for you? Did you feel that pull? You said that a little bit.
And what did that look like for you guys and your family? And what did the conversations sound like? I remember getting into this. I think our son was four. He didn't know anything.
He's on the soccer field, our first son. And this mom goes, Did you sign up for this, you know, the travel league? Like, no. She goes, Oh, you better. Because if you don't do it, he's never going to be able to go to the next level.
And I remember saying to Dave, like, do we want him to go? Like, what? But you feel this pressure.
So, take us there.
Well, that's a great thing to put on the table. That there's a whole bunch of different things that create pressure for us, but I wonder if the biggest one. is this fear of not realizing an imagined future. You know, you've got this picture in your mind of what you want for him or for her. Whether that's high school or it's in college or maybe even beyond, you've already, as a parent, started thinking about what that's going to look like.
And so now we're going to try to backfill as a six-year-old. And again, we call it an industrial complex because it's a forty billion dollar machine that knows that we feel that way and says, oh, we've got what your six year old needs if you want them to turn into that. Whatever that is, you need to start focusing now. You need to specialize now. You have to pay money now.
You got to get with this team, this coach, go to this tournament across these three state lines. You got to keep going. Every day you're not doing that. You're already behind.
Now that's happening with every single kid in every single sport at the same time. And it really ends up being a lie. Again, I've got three kids now that are in college. I've got one that's in ninth grade.
So we keep saying, I get one more chance to get this right. Just one more chance. I was talking to Brian about it this morning. It's just a lie. That, like, you're not in control.
I like how Brian used that word, control. We're not in control of their sport future as much as we think we are. If they wind up being any good. It will be largely because God gave them a physical body that does things differently than the vast majority of other people, and you can't control that. And they've got a mentality that makes them different.
They want to work on their left hand. They want to do the thing that other kids don't want to do to get better. And you can't make them do that. Knowing that, it should free us up to just go to the 10-year-old soccer game and enjoy watching her or him play. Instead of being constantly stressed, That they're not performing at this level.
They need to be performing as a 10-year-old so that they can get where we want them to be when they're 13. And then they can make their team when they're 17. And they can Okay, so what's going on in that parent's mind? And you guys are parents, so you can relate as a dad. But I mean, I coached in Michigan public high schools, and I started middle school.
And part of it is like.
Well, you coached all the way through from like eight-year-olds. Yeah, so you know what I'm going to say? Because I wanted to be there when my sons were on there as well. And then even after they went on to college, I stayed. And, you know, I just wanted to be an influence in a public high school.
You stayed in the same school at the same level. I coached at the public high school. Yeah, about four or five more years. But when your kids weren't there, you were still coaching in that space. Because I was there and I actually did a chapel for the school on Thursday nights before our Friday night games as well.
So it was like. Amazing ministry. You know, these kids that never went to church and their families never went to church showed up every Thursday and listened to Pastor Chaplain Coach Dave. Talk about Jesus in a public high school. And then we had dinner.
But here's what I was going to say: you know, when I helped out at middle school basketball, and a lot of these kids, this is going to be their first thing.
So we had tryouts, and I bet there's 50 or 70 boys coming to that gym. And you guys know this: in 30 seconds, I could eliminate. All but 15 of them. Go home. There's no way you're ever going to make this team.
You don't have the gift. There's no way. And their parents are over there thinking they're going to play in the NBA. And you can, and they would be mad at me right now for saying that I could judge them in 30 seconds. And you know, as an athlete, you can.
They don't have what you said, God-given ability to do it. That doesn't mean maybe some of them can outwork it and be good, but most of them don't have it. And yet I know in the high school those parents are mad at me 'cause their kid's not playing. And I'm like, I'm there with them every night. Sir, he's not the best.
You know what I mean?
So what happens to a parent? What's going on in a parent's mind when they can't see? Like, maybe he's an artist. Maybe he's, you know what I mean? He's got other gifts.
She has other gifts. It's not this one, but they are convinced it has to be on the soccer field. Yeah. And this is when we talk about being formed and shaped by culture. A lot of what.
sport culture is forming us by is is telling us that we are one club away from our kid making it. We're one coach. We're one $600 bat away from our kid finally being able to hit it out of the park. There's really never been a better time to be an entrepreneur than right now within the context of youth sports because well-intentioned parents really do want what's best for our kids. And so we want to make sure we say that too.
Like a lot of these parents are like, they're not crazy. They're well-intentioned, but we've just been discipled so much by youth culture saying if you just pay a little bit more, if you just join this, if you just do that, then out on the other end. End, you're going to have this all-star athlete who's going to get all these great opportunities. And sports just doesn't work that way.
So, what I would say to these parents is research is clear. Like, this isn't just a hunch or a hot take. Research is showing that the more money we spend on our kids in youth sports, the less they actually enjoy it. Really? Let's let that sink in for a second.
A second sink in. The more money we spend on our kids, the data is saying the less fun our kids are actually having. Oh, what's going on? Yeah. Well, why do you think it is?
Why the pressure that might be? They feel the pressure. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
You, you buy the kid the nice bat and you're traveling across state line and you switch from the normal rec league to now this club elite team. Again, well-intentioned. There's going to be a great opportunity for our kid, but the kids know something's going on. Like as they get more and more investment into them. They're feeling like there's something on the line here.
It's not just about play anymore. I actually have to perform. And that's really, really hard for college athletes to perform that type of level when there's a lot of pressure. We've taken almost a professional college level of sport and put it on six to 10-year-olds, and they're crippling under it. You're listening to Family Life Today.
I'm Ann Wilson, and before we continue with our conversation, I just want to remind listeners that our vision at Family Life is every home a godly home, and we need your help to get there. And when you become a family life partner, Your monthly support makes that vision actually possible. Yeah, you'll get access to exclusive updates and events and the chance to join our partners only online community. But more than that, you're helping change the future of families.
So the question is, will you come alongside us and alongside families in need? And you can go to FamilyLifetoday.com and read more about it and become a partner. Just click the donate button at the top. And again, you can go to FamilyLifetoday.com. I've shared this story here before, but I was nine years old.
No, I think I was 10. when I had competed really well in a gymnastics meet, came home, had medals, had ribbons. I had never played so So high in the all-around. And so my dad was a coach, my brother was coaching and playing. And not gymnastics.
No, they were coaching baseball.
So they came home and I told my mom, like, hey, I was in bed, but make sure you display all of my stuff. They came in, saw my stuff, and I said, make sure they wake me up.
So, They woke me up and I said, Did you see my medals? Like, did you see how I placed? And my dad and brother were both there, which were my heroes. And my dad said, Hey. We are the Barons.
If you don't have a first place, don't come home because we are the best. And don't come home unless you're the best. I can't tell you the crippling pressure That put on me, it took all the joy away, all of it. And I was paralyzed competing. That's what you're talking about.
Paralyzed competing. And if we can even go here, I mean, I wonder what that did to your view of the gospel and your ability to embrace the idea. I can't tell you because I live with her.
Well, that's why you have a marriage ministry now, right? Actually, it's uh, there's a sense of performance. Yes, she's always had. We've had conversations about this God, you know, it's like she's driving, driving, driving. I'm like, I think there's grace.
I don't get the grace part. We don't realize again, so let's just speak as parents. I don't think we realize that with great intentions, and Brian's always good about pointing this out. It's with for most of the parents, it's yeah, their hearts are great. We love our kids, yeah.
We want them, we want the best for them, we want them to have something better than we had. We, you know, we're haunted by our own regrets and we don't want them to have to experience those things. We want to protect them from those sorts of things, and so what we inadvertently wind up doing. is we put them under a performance. Pressure.
Because we want them to get someplace. We want them to achieve something. And what it ends up doing is inadvertently, and you said it, it paralyzes them. They may not be able to say it. You know, it's a rare kid that can articulate this is stressing me, dad.
Stop doing it. I never said one thing to anybody. No, you'll end up saying it to him. It ends up comes out years later in your marriage when you have kids and you start taking some of that unresolved stuff out on them. Again, this is where it gets really deep, right?
Yes.
So, what if we, as parents, and this is the other thing, Brian and I say, we're not talking about being participation trophy people. No, we want to pursue excellence. Yes, there is a place for performance. And of course, yes, we want our kids to try to do their best. But what if we left that to the coaches?
And what if we, as parents? Coaches are bad, Ed. Come on. Let's come back to that.
Okay. Because a lot of them are.
Okay. And so, maybe God wants to teach our kids something about what it means to be under bad leadership. You think they'll ever experience that in their adult life? Never.
Okay. So, what if we, as parents, actually started to invest way more time in the things that we're actually responsible for before God? And that is being their first discipler. That's not as comfortable. To me, I'm way better at downloading two hours of critical input about how to be better on the court than I am thinking through how do I have a conversation about, I don't like the way you went through the handshake line today.
And I don't like the fact that you seem to only be interested in yourself and you don't see any of your teammates or care anything about any of them. You're full of anxiety. And I have a responsibility actually to teach you how to lean into Jesus in the midst of that. And that's way scarier to me than to just say, stop feeling that way. It's just, it's easier just to play that role and to focus on performance.
than it is to think about being a discipler. Yeah, and even coming back to your situation, and like I think most parents aren't going to come out and say that to their kids, but how many kids would feel that coming from their parents? Is my mom and dad are most satisfied with me when I perform well, or I get the most affection or attention when I perform well? And if kids' primary view of God comes from mom and dad early on in their life, man, we are almost imprinting this performance driven mindset at such a young age. And what sports has an opportunity is we can actually flip that script.
We can say things like, hey, before you even go out there today, I want you to know that I love you and I'm just so excited to watch you play. No matter what happens. No matter what happens. And then making sure our posture and our words throughout the game reflect that truth. Like, what if our kids could end their youth sport experience saying, Whether I was amazing or I was horrible.
Mom and dad loved me. Yeah. And that love was not dependent on what I did on the field or the court. I mean, how does a parent get to that maturity? Because that's maturity.
I mean, it's interesting. I didn't realize that at the time. I had a single mom. Dad was gone. She did that.
Yeah, she did. She really did. I mean, she just thought it was great. Watching me play. Every game was awesome.
I remember we played Fremont Ross, Buckeye Conference. 10,000 people my junior year. And the quarterback was going to Michigan State, got hurt.
So I'm now the starter. And it's the end of the season. And I remember it's the biggest game of my life at that point. And I go two for 12 with two interceptions and we lose. And I walk off.
She's like, you hurt me. Easy to make. Mom, it was terrible. Yeah. She.
didn't even care. And I really feel like I grew up, every sport I play, I enjoy. And I play with Ann and she's like, I'm like, oh my goodness, that. You carry that into your into your adulthood. What your parents put on you, she still feels.
I mean, we had our oldest son. He's an IT guy today. He's an engineer guy. He loves sports. He played them all, but he was not gifted.
You guys, this is such a picture of this is our marriage. You can tell a lot about yourself by how you respond to watching your kids play.
So we're playing a little basketball game, and I'm coaching. How old was CJ? He was probably five or seven. He was seven. Seven or eight years old, and we're terrible.
You know, it's just, and you know, and I am like, say Jay, I'm yelling from the court. With that tone, I can hear it. I'm stressed right now. Get her off. Get your ball.
She's in the stand. I'm coaching. I'm like, turning around to my own wife, who's the bad parent. Like, shut up. And CJ's, yeah.
And so at one point, he literally stops at midcourt. The game's going back and forth around him. And this is where I'm like, say, hey. No, and he's staring at the scoreboard. And I know what's happening because I know my kid enough.
So I go, hey, time out. They all come over. And he's laughing the whole time. Up there. She's up there like CJ, CJ.
And he's like looking at me and looking at her. I go, Hey, CJ, what were you doing there at half court? And my other coach was coaching the kids. I knew what he's going to say. He goes, Dad.
The scoreboard. How does the guy push those things? And it changes the lights on the scoreboard. I go, CJ, I have no idea, but I guarantee you will know someday. And that's his brain.
And he's came alive that way. That's when I ended all of that. And it made me think, why am I putting this pressure on him? Yeah. I'm wanting him to become something that he's not.
Find what their genius is and flame it. Is that what you're saying? One of the issues is we've almost trusted youth sports for too little. Like we're just trusting it for the high school opportunity or maybe the college scholarship. But what we're talking about right now is this is affecting us today in our like 40s, 50s, and 60s, like how our parents stewarded their youth sport experience with us.
Has ripple effects today. And so, man, what if we trusted the youth sport experience for lifelong discipleship instead of just maybe overstressing about the score of a game when they're 12 years old? Do we have to heal ourselves from the past before we can do that? A huge part of what we've been talking about is, yeah, I think I do. Uh Okay, I love these guys.
I love this conversation. And this is a conversation I think every parent is longing for wisdom. Don't you think? Oh, I know it. I mean, I wish we would have had it.
Me too. And now the wisdom is out there. It's called a weight game. It's the book. And you can go to familylifetoday.com, click on the link in the show notes.
And I'm telling you, we've only begun this conversation. We're going to talk to them in a couple more days, but man, oh man, get the book, do the work because this is literally going to change your child's life if you do it right.
So come back tomorrow. We're going to be back with Ed and Brian. I don't know about you. But I need parenting help, not just sometimes, but most of the time.
So maybe you feel like that too. And we have resources to help you as a parent. And you can go to familylife.com slash parenting help. And you're going to find resources that will really help you not just once in a while, but as much as you want. That's the benefit.
Again, you can go to familylife.com slash parenting health. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
