Everybody that has interaction with anybody in the church. Needs to know how to sit with somebody else in pain. I am not gonna have all the answers, but I can listen to you. All of us have been called to be a friend.
Well, we have our friend Shanti Feldhan. I am back in the studio. Why do I just smile when Shanti's in the room with me? I don't know. He's been talking about this for a month.
You guys. Oh, what else are you going to say right now, Shanti? You sort of have to. We do love you, Shanti, because not only are you a good friend, but you have really impacted us with all of your work. You're so kind.
And you have someone with you today. I do. I do. One of my favorite people in the world. But I'll let you guys introduce.
Jim.
Well, we don't know as much about Jim as you do.
Okay. Jim Sells is with us, and we just heard he's like a, you know, he's on the big deal. He has a big deal. He's on Mount Rushmore in the owl a lot of people money. Yeah.
So that's why they keep in relationship with me.
Well, I don't want you to tell us how big a deal you are. Shanti, tell us. Yeah.
So when we, which I know we'll explain, when we started talking about writing this book together. I was like, Oh my gosh, is Dr. Jim Sells wanting to write a book with me? Like I was like fangirling. Did he reach out to you?
We had been working on this project, which we'll be explaining in a minute. We've been working on this project. He's like, I think that there's an important book here for the Christian audience. And he's like, How would you like to maybe work on that together? I'm like, Are you kidding?
So, because Jim, Dr. Cells, sorry, you know, you know, oh, we got to call him doctor. No, we don't need, we don't need to call him Dr. Cells. I just require my adult children to call me doctor.
Oh, that's good. It doesn't go very well. Are we going to call you doctor yet? Yeah, almost, almost very soon. Yes.
But Jim is the head of the Karis Institute at Regent, co-head of the Karis Institute at Regent University, which is also where I'm getting my PhD, and a tenured professor and the head of the Church Cares Initiative, which we want to talk about today. And he's just been a long time thought leader in the academic space around psychology, marriage. family therapy, et cetera, like just one of the leading Like he writes all the textbooks. Like I think I had three of your textbooks. In my last couple, Jim, do we need to get your autograph too?
I think we did the big deal, he's like in the NFL Hall of Fame in this area. He is that's academic-wise. All right, here's where I'm going. First question. Who are the people walking in our churches today?
based on your studies. Wow, you're just going right there. I want to talk about Shanti and her impact on our lives. I guess we won't go there now. Do you want to say that?
Because that is a pretty big thing. No, I will say this about Shanti. A lot of our viewers and listeners, and I hope you're watching, not just listening. And some of you are like, you can watch this on YouTube. And you get to see this bald head.
Two bald heads today. Exactly. No, it's really funny. You know, a Harvard-trained researcher, and I love your books because they're based on research.
So it isn't just some guy's opinion. Or even just scripture, scripture is confirming what research says.
So, here's what's really funny: when for women only came out, right? I don't know what year. It was the original edition back in 2004. Can you believe it's been that long? That sounds right.
Wow. Yeah.
Yeah.
That's about right.
So somebody gave it to Ann, Ann didn't even get it. And said, I just heard Shanti on the show. You got to get, you got to read this book. And doesn't. hasn't read it yet.
I see it laying on our kitchen hutch. I walk in. The women only. The women understanding the private lives of your man or something like that, right? Subtitle.
And I'm like, what is this? You know, and it's like, yeah, I don't know. Michelle said I should read it. I'm like, oh really?
So the next day I open it up. I read the whole thing. Oh, that's awesome. And I remember walking into the kitchen that night and I go, You read this book now. She's like, What?
Read it now. This explains me. You gotta, I mean, it was so helpful. Oh, I'm so for men only, for women only, for parents only. Best thing I've ever read about teenagers.
Parenting. Oh, ever. Thanks. And we wrote a book on parenting. A million times better than our buck.
I think your book was the beginning of a journey for us, Shanti, that really saved us in a lot of ways. Wow. And the book that we just had released, How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him. Which is the best title ever, by the way. Just so you know, when you asked me to endorse it, I'm like, I can't wait to read it.
Not just because I helped you get it to your publisher that day when you're like, wait, we didn't know the title, right? But because the title is, yeah. But even your book impacted that writing because it was that beginning of a new journey. Oh, I'm glad to hear that. My words have to be spoken in a way that resonates with Dave and motivates him.
Well, it's not like you have to do anything differently. It's just like, well, do you want a good relationship while you speak life into each other? Then, yes.
So, all that to bring us back to what was your question? My question was, I don't even remember. Based on your research, because you're both you've researched this. Who is walking into the doors of our churches today? Yeah.
People who don't know anything. about How Christianity works based on a Sunday school knowledge and growing up. With a biblical culture back in their brains. They're coming with paint. And they're showing up with, can someone here help me?
Mm. Even if they don't look like it. Yeah.
Even if they don't look like it. Yeah, they're clean. They want the family, you know, Sunday best, white picket fence, whatever. But inside, there's an immense amount of money.
Well, I mean, as a pastor, I've always known that, but is it uniquely different today? I think there are some unique differences. And Shanti has heard this story. It's really how the Church Cares Initiative got launched. I'm driving in Anderson County, South Carolina.
Dropped my son off at Clemden for a soccer. Uh training. And I'm just I got the day. and I got a tank of gas.
So I'm just driving around. And I'm driving down this. rural highway past a Baptist church. Looks like every other Baptist church in the country and out in the... the farmlands of America, brick, white steeple.
Seats 150 people. We all see it. on the Marquis no longer says, Services at 9:30 or and Sunday school at 9.30, worship service at 11. Prayer meeting Wednesday night at 7. Doesn't say that.
It doesn't say that. Oh. Um Family Counsel available. Hmm. And I'm I stop my truck.
And I just look at it for a few minutes because out in the middle of. of Rural America. With cars zipping by on this rural highway That church, somebody in that church said, What's the best way we can invite people to our church? It's no longer Potluck and then softball game to beat the Methodists. You know, it's like it, It it It's Was none of that choir practice six o'clock on Thursday.
It's Your family hurts? Come here. And I have no idea how trained they were or any of those things, but.
Somebody said that's the message for this county, this community, this church. And that's the reality all over the country, really all over the world. Is we, for the last couple of years, Jim and I have been doing research on this and really interviewing. Like, we've interviewed and surveyed more than 2,000 pastors. Of all streams of the church, pastors, church leaders, some clinicians, in order to just say, what's going on out there?
What are you seeing? And right now, what we're seeing is that the folks walking into the average church, I mean, some things may be going great in their lives, but there are areas of pain that everybody carries. And, like, today, just as just an example, before the pandemic, and mental health issues, emotional health issues were a big issue. You know, there's been issues forever. But as an example, when you look at the government statistics and what percentage of people are.
Have an anxiety disorder, right? Like, are diagnosed. Before the pandemic, the year before, the number was 8.1%. Of what? Of people in the country were diagnosed with an anxiety disorder.
Yeah, it was 8.1. If you look at this, and it was like had had it within the last like three months or something. Like, I can't remember what the parameters were, but like dealing with it. currently in a significant way right now. And And during the pandemic, that number went to 41%.
Wow. Same, so apples to apples, same data set. Right. And today it's 28.7.
So it's still high. It's still very, very high. And unfortunately, what has happened in that time and for years is you have so many more people coming into the pastor, coming into the care team, coming, you know, can you help me? And the reality is. Everybody has a heart to want to help one another, want to help these folks who are dealing with whatever marriage issues, trauma, whatever the thing is.
And yet, There's only so many pastors, right? Like, there's only so many clinicians that you can refer somebody to. And you know. I was a pastor. I am a pastor.
You are a pastor. We're not trained. Yeah.
Well, I can't remember. We're still ill-equipped to deal with a significant mental health crisis. Yeah.
But Dave, we're going to refer out. At least we went to seminary and we had some classes on what to do. But I was just thinking as I was reading through your book. I I recalled the teenage girl that called me and said, I'm cutting I'm, I, you know, and she's, it's life-threatening now, and she's so riddled with depression. I have another mom call me and say, My daughter just told me she's gay.
Can you meet with her? I had another woman, as we were recording in here. Leave me a message and say, I'm taking my life. By the time you hear this, I'll be gone. We had to stop the recording, and Ann had to call professional and get the police over there now.
But I think you're right. This is going on. It's like a silent epidemic. And we don't know what to do with it, even as church leaders. And so, you guys are passionate about that too.
And that epidemic. Because of a Someone has kind of come to our church. They're not churched. Right. They All they have is This thing in front of me is like A big emotional cloud of static.
I can't see through it. I can't get around it. And I don't know what to do with it. Can somebody here help me? Hmm.
But let's let's switch gears a little bit because that tends to label that that that few, that 25%, and then the the rest of us are just healthy folks. Not quite true. Not quite true. Why are we all laughing? Yes.
So probably the biggest Nut we haven't cracked yet. is how people in the church. who know they have pain, But don't know how to access help within the church to address their pain.
So, we have a lot of people who are willing to be helpers. But fewer of them are recognizing, but I need help at the same time. I need answers. Yeah.
And then you could do both to some degree. I can be a helper and a helpee simultaneously. Like that, people in the church, that us, like, Us, all of us, the body of our life can be an answer to this. Yes, it's it's it is telling. I was one of the interviews I did was with, and I'll keep him anonymous.
He's like, Please keep me anonymous, I'm sure. Um, but one of the interviews was with one of the folks we'd actually, Jeff and I, my husband and I, had spoken at their church a number of years ago, had done a marriage event. And so we had known them. He was the care pastor, basically. And so I said, hey, can I interview?
This is early on. Can I interview you? We're trying to get a handle on what the experience is around mental health in the church today. Like, what is it that you see as a pastor? And so I said, you know, when someone comes down to get prayer on Sunday morning after the service, like, How do you refer them to different groups in the church?
He's like, Well, you know, if it's youth, they'll go to pastor so-and-so. If it's marriage, they'll be referred to me. And I said, Okay, so imagine that somebody just has like really significant depression, or they have had trauma in their background and they don't know what to do or whatever. What's the process? And he literally pushed back from the table.
Like we were on Zoom and he goes like this and he pushes back and he's like. I kind of feel like you just told me, hey, Pastor, there's somebody at the altar who's having a heart attack. Here's a scalpel. Mm. Go, go, do something.
I don't, like you said, I'm not trained. I don't know. You don't know what to do. And imagine, and what we want people to imagine. is Today Those pastors, and the number is 88% of the pastors on our survey.
said they agreed or sort of agreed that the top Job of the church when it's a mental health issue. It is to refer out to a professional, somebody who's trained, somebody who does have that specialty. And that's great. Jim is a clinical psychologist, right? He's trained Christian psychologist for many decades now.
And so that's awesome.
However, it's not right now. There just aren't enough clinicians. There aren't enough pastors to be able to help. And so imagine that that person down front who's dealing with trauma, that you could say, you know what? Maybe we'll talk with you.
We're going to, you know, try. To get you into a clinician if you need that, but in the meantime, you oh, I'm so sorry, you were sexually abused as a child and it's impacting you. We have a team of lay listeners who are able to come alongside, and I happen to know that Bonnie. That is part of her history, and she loves helping other women walk through that. She's been trained in listening, so we're going to connect you with her, even while you're waiting, perhaps to see a clinician.
And it's like, imagine the load that that would take off. of the average pastor if there were teams of Bonnies and Bobs. that could just Walk alongside these people. And have the ability to listen.
So, how do we get there?
Well, and let me add too: like that Bonnie, if this woman goes to Bonnie who's walked through it and she's seeing some healing. That will light her on fire because she will feel like God can use me and my brokenness and my story to walk alongside this dear woman and just hear and listen. That changes her life as well. What were you gonna say, Dave? Years ago, I mean, we started our church in 1990, the first year starting our church.
At a service, probably three months in. I'm one of the founders, and I didn't tell my co-founder I was going to do this. But in my sermon I don't remember what text I was teaching, but it fit. I share a story of how I had struggled with porn. and the journey about it.
I remember I walk off the stage. And Steve, my co-founder, literally, before I step down the stairs, he looks at me, and I thought I could be in trouble. Especially then, nobody ever, especially a pastor 1990. People weren't talking about it. They were struggling.
Nobody talked about it. You know, so I'm going to talk about it. Were you finding victory at that point? Yeah, I was in victory, but I was like, I got to be honest, this was a struggle and it was a struggle in our marriage. And I took enough time to say this is real.
I remember like Steve's looking up at me because I'm coming downstairs. I'm like, it could be the last day of us doing this church together. And I'll never forget it. He looks right at me and he goes, You just changed this church. I go, is that a good thing?
Is that a bad thing? He goes, this will never be a church where people come and hide their secrets. This is going to be. A different place. And it was.
Well, here's what's really interesting, sort of funny. I started having guys set up appointments. They come and meet with me. You know, and everyone wanting to like, can you talk to me about this? Can you talk to me about this?
I'm saying this because of what you just said. Bonnie was sort of me. I had a similar struggle to a lot of men in our church who had never talked to anybody, and now they heard their pastor say something.
So, literally, my assistant, Debbie, who's still our assistant, she could tell you, I started getting all these calls. They want to meet with Dave. What about? Could we just have an hour?
So, they'd come in and they'd hem hom around. And then I realized. Oh, I said, Hey, are you struggling? Yeah, I've never told anybody. We talk, right?
What's really funny is this happened. 10 or 15 times. Finally, our drummer comes in. And, you know, we we're new.
So I'm in the band.
So I know Bruce pretty well. And Bruce comes in and he said, and he's not bringing this up. And finally, after literally 10 minutes, I go, Bruce, I know why you're here. He goes, yeah, really? He goes, I go, yeah.
He goes, why am I here? I go, you're struggling with porn. I've talked to 20 guys. We can talk about egosphore. Yeah.
I'm not strong with porn at all.
Well why are you here? He goes, I just gave my life to Christ. I thought you could help me grow. I was like, finally, you know, a guy. But again, it's funny now, but when I think about it, it's like nobody had somebody in the church that they could journey, like the Bonnies.
So how do we get to that? Yeah.
I mean, again, I don't want to get there now because we got to talk about this. That's why we wrote the book. I mean, the whole book is like a strategy that I know because I'm still in the church world. There aren't very many churches doing this. Mega, small, you name it.
They're not doing it.
Well, they're popping. They are all over the place. They are. It's just that they don't know each other and they don't know that this is a model that works. And every church handles it differently.
That's the cool thing. Like the body of Christ is so diverse. That was probably one of the. Wonderful things we found in going to talk to pastors and interview. And survey Thousands.
More than 2,000. Yeah.
How many things are occurring here, here, here, here, here, here? Big church, small church, black church, Latino church, white church, Presbyterian church, charismatic church. They're all doing different things, usually that reflect. Their identity, reflect their theology, like a whole bunch of things. And so we tried to.
to take some Some best practices, put them in the book. And and take the the survey content, distill it down to just some principled thought about how you can go about doing it. And also link Churches with not-for-profits and ministries that are ongoing right now that are doing really, really cool things and then actually become one of those organizations that can help churches do it, help churches put it all together. Because we don't, one of the things that we see, because we are fans of the pastors, we're fans of the pastors and their wives, the co-pastor couple, the care pastor, the youth pastor, who are just, they care so much and they are just right now trying to survive. They're overwhelmed.
Overwhelmed and really truly feeling at least, you know, the subset. And again, we had a pretty good base for the survey because we were pretty strict about I am going to talk to every conceivable type of church that I could, you know, put into the survey, Catholic, Protestant, every, you know, the whole thing. And but one of the things that was standard across The vast majority of these is that every one of them has the heart. To try to help. They don't.
Know what to do. And they know that their counselors are full. We found one of the things that was really hard. When the data came back, I showed Jim the graph because I'm like, I could not wait to see the data. And this one graph just hit me between the eyes.
And it said, when you refer somebody out, What percentage of them, like how long does it take them to see somebody? Is it a week? Is it five weeks? Is it two months? You know, what is it?
And 50%. Of the people taking the survey didn't know. No idea. Had no idea, which meant. I'm referring out, and that's the end of my life.
And so we don't recognize that. without intending to for so because we've professionalized Human care so much, which again, there's nothing wrong with that, but we've professionalized it so much that we don't realize that without intending to, we've created a funnel out of the church for people who are hurting. I mean, even right now in my church, if somebody comes up and I refer them, I tell them it'll be a month to two months before you'll get an appointment. I am now referring most people to Deborah Fileta. Yeah, online, right?
She's got a whole team. Telehealth to go to her website. You'll probably talk to somebody in the next couple days. It's still, it can still take some time. But it can still take.
And there was a secret shopper study that was done of counseling clinics, telehealth options, whatever. Like people, hundreds and hundreds of clinics all over the country that offer. Telehealth, because you know, that's the thing that everybody's going to now, because they can't get in to see a counselor. And they found that the telehealth clinics were so overwhelmed that 20% of these secret shoppers didn't even get a callback. 20%.
20%, one out of every five people who's desperate and hurting, and they called three times. That was their process. And they couldn't even get a phone call back.
So you guys are saying, oh no, it's not that we need more trained psychologists or therapists, which would be great too, right? But you're saying, no, we don't want necessarily want them to leave and never come back to our church. We need to equip the body. We need to equip the body. We're seeing all of those things and maybe a few things more.
I'm not seeking to undermine the mental health profession. I train people to do this profession, and I'd like to continue in that line of work. It's been very good to me and my family. But We've used the phrase: we don't refer out, we refer with. Meaning, the role of the church is to be a continual relationship.
with everybody that shows up. And and you might You might need professional care, you might need medication, you might need. And an inpatient. Detoxification for addiction of substances, you might need some really complicated medical intervention. And you need the church.
You need people showing up and being with you all the time. That's discipleship. Yes, it is. But it makes you cheery. It does.
Because. Um We have there's me as a psychologist shifting from my emotion side to my thinking side to control can control that, but I feel. Uh Sad. Because I think much of what The church is supposed to do really, really well. Um We have Out of our own fear, jettisoned it to Jim the Professional.
rather than Jim the Discipler. Yeah.
And that kind of splits down the middle of me with Jim the psychologist. And Jim The pastor's son who grew up in the church and loves deep, deep care of people. Tell them about your grandmother. Yeah, I'd say The the that the best counselor I ever saw was my grandmother, Uh Marie Catherine. who had an eighth grade education.
and a Bible and a coffee pot. and a kitchen table. Uh people would show up at her door. Yeah.
Thank you. far more effective than I'll ever be in my whole life.
So, so that's like, and that was pre-psychology, pre-profession. Like I mean, I'm just listening to that, Jim, thinking of our listeners, thinking, what does this have to do with me? That's right there, right there. Like, we are called as God's children. To open our homes, to disciple, and I think we feel so overwhelmed and under-equipped, we don't know how to do that, but to open a door.
To say, come to my house, let's just have a cup of coffee. And to say, you don't have to know the answers, right? To be able to say, like, okay, I was talking to Jim this morning about the fact that I'm about to get my PhD in counseling and psychological studies. Yes, I know. Yeah.
Yeah, that's going to be weird. Anyway, just stop because that's just a weird thing. Anyway. But it's a non-licensure PhD. It's leadership, it's research, right?
But It is Partly I chose that route because I am not. A counselor. Like I'm studying counseling and psychology, but I'm not necessarily, you know, I don't have the, the, I don't have clients. I don't, you know, I, I study and talk to a lot of people. But One of the things that everybody has to reckon with.
is that all of us have been called to be a friend. And that I don't have to have all the answers. I am not going to have all the answers, but I can listen to you. And that, right, just alone. That alone is huge.
Huge. And so that's the vision that we want as part of the. The point behind this book, and part behind the point behind the church cares initiative that Jim leads. Is to help the church catch that vision and go, it does not matter what you're structured like. It does, you can have all these different DNA of your church, different streams of the church, and yet you are filled with people who care.
And those people right now have felt for years like, okay, if somebody's hurting in my small group, okay, let me refer them to the pastor. The pastor talks to them a couple of times, refers them to a counselor, which may still be the need, right? But Oh, I I can be trained, like, I can read a book on listening, or I can do the church cares listening training, or, you know, it's, it's just an hour, a few hours, right? It's just, it's, it's just so that I go, oh, okay, you know what? I'm, as I'm listening to this person, my emotions are getting activated, and I need to make sure that I ask this question.
And I've learned enough that I can do that, as opposed to, oh my gosh, I don't know what the answers are. And you don't need to. I mean, what percentage, you guys have pros at this, would you say? Maybe this, maybe there's not an answer. I don't know.
What percentage of people that come in and want to talk to somebody or walk up to somebody at the end of a service and or want a uh want a counselor or pastor to meet with. What percentage of them Really, don't need a pastor or a trained professional. They just need a good friend, somebody that will listen and care, and maybe walk with them through this journey. Yeah.
I'm going to answer from the perspective of all the pastors and clinicians I've talked to.
So, one of the things that there was, for example, this is a pretty average answer. One of the churches we talked to had been one that had built a lay listening program like this. And they said that of the people, people who came in the door. 80% of them only needed to talk to somebody two or three times. Wow 80% I don't know what you're saying.
You're not a trained professional counselor therapist to recommend drugs and help you. No, it's going to be. What would you say? Because you're the one who gets the referrals. You've already got your doctorate.
She doesn't have her. I don't yet. She's going to listen to you. She's defended her dissertation.
So she's just. It's just Waiting to mop up the floor. It's all there.
Now. Less than 10% have serious mental illness. Less than 10%. Yes. A good 25, 30%.
have Significant life pain. But they're fully functional. This is our triangle in the book. Yep. Um So so that gives That's Let's say 10 and 30, that's 40%.
That leaves 60 of us, 60% of us. Just hurt. Yeah.
challenges. There's no one I've ever met who's gotten a pass and life was easy.
Okay. It doesn't matter your economics. It doesn't matter your race. It doesn't matter your intelligence, your life pedigree. Yeah.
Everybody's life is hard. Hmm. And some people's life has been much More challenging than others, but nobody skates through. Unhindered by the challenges that are facing them. Everybody struggles.
No one has evaded the fall of mankind. Nobody's there. You go. That's a great way of putting it. Exactly.
We can share our common depravity and the effects of that common depravity on the way that we've lived our lives.
Now The Surgeon General uh put out a a a study in 2023. Called Uh the epidemic of isolation and loneliness. And and considers Our social isolation emerging in North American United States culture. To be more serious, more detrimental than a two-pack a day cigarette habit. Whoa.
In terms of the effects it has on our well-being and our life. And considers it among the most serious health epidemics facing America. Like we are disconnected. We need a big billboard that says, come to church, get more healthy. Yes, exactly.
Because relationships. Can you be our marketing director? That was awesome. Dave would be much better at that. Boy, isn't it?
I mean, when I'm hearing this, and again, I read your book. I mean, here's the title, by the way: When Hurting People Come to Church: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis. Those are strong words. And it's true. I mean, I'm hearing you, and even as I read it, I'm thinking, you're saying the church is an army.
Yes. Already formed that could help solve this if they just knew they could be somewhat equipped, but mostly. Energized and sent afraid of the answer. And by the way, when I say church, I also say family life. Any ministry that's a community of believers has within themselves what.
This crisis needs to be. We have created in twenty first century America a mental health culture and language. Yeah.
such that it's it it used to be oh you're going to therapy Mm.
Now it's a bit of a badge of honor for a middle school kid to say, I got to go see my therapist today. And they're like, you're not going to therapy. Yeah, you're not. What's wrong with you? You should be.
Don't your parents love you?
So there's this, that's a tremendous cultural shift, which is great. Great. Really good. It's great. And so now, though, Instead of hundreds of thousands of people seeing maybe I should go to therapy.
We have millions of people. And it is impossible to train enough clinicians. Nor is it Possible to fund in terms of our health care dollars. The work of those clinicians. And you're saying it's not really.
Totally necessary in how what percentage? It's not necessary. It's probably 60% at least of cases. And you know what you earned just by going to church? You've created a friend that you're talking to and discipleship.
Yes. And that is, and by the way, that word, the discipleship word, is the word that I want everyone who is an involved church volunteer, pastor, ministry leader to really hone in on. Because we, in the survey, we saw a very telling thing because the survey was anonymous, right? Like people could be very honest. And there were so many pastors who said explicitly.
My job as a pastor is not to handle mental health issues. That is for a professional. My job is discipleship to make disciples and evangelism. And I am like, it's the same thing. It is when you, as a Bonnie or a Bob, you come alongside the person in need and you say, I'm so sorry about that trauma from your childhood.
I had that same thing. I'll walk with you. We'll, you know, whatever, and get you into a small group. And hey, there's the women's Bible study. And there's some friends there that you need to get to know.
That's discipleship. That's evangelism. I love what one of your colleagues had said: that this is the. Discipleship, how do we put it? Evangelism and discipleship method of the 21st century.
Yeah.
Because that's the language people speak. Yeah.
Interesting. Um Billy Graham mastered Technology The mass media of his era coming out of World War II and the formation of television and took advantage of that. In our era, Uh People speak therapy. That's the language that they speak, and it's the communication medium. That everybody can resonate with.
What do you mean? Have you watched TikTok lately? Yeah.
What's that called, tick what? Um for better or for worse. There though. There is a Uh There is a priority of the self. And the c and the care slash.
Uh importance of Me first. And so that that makes people prompt. prompted to attend to How am I feeling? How am I feeling? What's going on?
Et cetera.
Well, it makes me think. Go ahead. And just, that is a. A powerful fast lane yeah to to like I need I need to talk to some I need help. Where are you going to go?
Go ahead. It reminds me of Dennis Rainey, of how he has said for years that. A good marriage is the best evangelistic tool that we have. For sure. But now I'm hearing this, I'm thinking.
Therapy And mental health is the new evangelistic tool. Because people are hurting so desperately that they're looking for answers. And that includes marriage issues. That includes everything, everything under the sun. And so we could almost leverage.
The need, the felt need of the world, and saying, This is the place that you can come and have that. It's Jesus basically, and relationships and discipleship. That's that little church I drove by, family council here. Yeah, available. Like And we have to reckon.
And the thing that I think those of us in the body of Christ have to reckon with. is that Oh, wait, that's me. That's me. Oh, like, it's not those other people because I have felt for so long of, like, oh my gosh, somebody's hurting. Let me find somebody to help you.
And it's what we have to reckon with. It's like we are the church. There's not another person. There may be a clinician who's needed for many of these things, but regardless, I'm needed. All right, let me just say this.
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Okay, let's get back to the conversation. Why haven't we gotten this? In the church, because I are you familiar with Larry Crabb? Oh, yeah, back in the day, yeah, wonderful. I remember, you know, Silence of Adam, different books that he wrote back when I was.
Just coming out of college, so late 70s, early 80s, probably.
Sorry to date myself. But his.
Sort of passion was the church is full of lay counselors. You can do this. He wrote a book called Biblical Counseling or something. It's like, you don't need a therapist. You, the church, can do most of the work we need done.
Here we are 40, 50 years later, and it's still not really happening yet. What's the problem?
Well, and I think it's gotten worse to some degree. And one big difference. in culture that that Larry was writing in his era. was Uh a a high resistance to the idea of I have need. Yeah.
Right. Now, yeah.
Now there is, we've kind of broken through that in terms of a cultural expectation. And And now everybody recognizes there is a need. Yeah.
And there's less stigma. I mean, one of the stigma pieces are gone.
Well, and that's one of the things that I was curious about. Like, I'm sorry, I'm looking, I'm being a nerd and looking up our actual data. But. 70% of pastors said that there's no stigma in their church today. around mental health.
And about 20% were sort of on the fence of that, but 70% just. Point blank disagreed. And only 11% thought the stigma was. Still high. Think about what the culture has said in the past, say, 30 years since Larry Crabb.
Think about the three most popular comedy series. Uh The Seinfeld show. I was going to say Seinfeld. Cheers.
Okay. And friends. And guess what they're doing? I know where you're going to have completely different storylines, completely different context. But Um Everybody wishes to be norm, walking into a bar and saying norm, norm.
Uh and and I haven't been in too many bars, but I've been in a few, and I have never. Phelp. welcomed like norm is welcomed. Everybody wants to be welcome. Everybody wants to be Kramer, who can just slide into Jerry's apartment without knocking.
I This is not my home, but this is my home. I belong here. And if you think about what they talked about at that bar or in Jerry's apartment, they helped each other. Yeah.
They talked about life issues and problems. Yeah.
And they had a friend to bounce them off of. And we do that in the church. That's the thing. I don't want pastors to hear us bashing you. No.
Like, I'm so grateful for the work of the pastors building that community, building that body of Christ in their church. It's just the church, us, not just the pastor, we have gotten more and more and more of this idea that that part of things is not our job, that we have to in order to not do damage. I would be doing the wrong thing if I walked alongside somebody who had these issues. And that the right thing is always to refer out. And what we're saying is, Absolutely, sometimes the right thing is to refer out.
Like your lady who said, By the time you read this, I'll be gone. Oh my goodness, like call the police, right? Like, that's that's she needs to be hospitalized. Yeah, absolutely. And yet, What happens to her husband while she's hospitalized?
He needs somebody to walk alongside. When she comes out of the hospital, it's not just, can I bring you a casserole? It's can I bring you a casserole and just. How are you doing? Yeah.
Right. And, and no, and being okay that you don't have all the answers, and being okay that you're just listening and you're being a friend. And that's. Fine that you don't need to have the training. that you can just be that listening ear.
I love Anne how you said mentioned the the the power of a really good marriage. I love sitting with the angriest couples you can imagine. You love it. Oh. Give me that.
That is his gifting. That is his gifting. People who like. who don't throw chairs, but who wish they could. Yeah, I'll end.
And You can tell my personality, it's not exactly, I'm not a dominator, but I love those people that are. are just anchor out. folks or they're hopeless or like weak weak We've tried everything and we can't do it. These are your favorites. These are my favorites.
Please send me those. As a conceptual psychologist, like Yeah, I should see those folks. Yeah.
Because you're skilled at the same time. Because I know how to work with them. Yeah.
Uh But the I often ask I ask all of my couples How many good marriages do you know? Who's in your life? that that is good at this. that you could have dinner with like Once a quarter. Just like And usually, probably the mean answer is zero.
Really? Oh, nobody. They can't find... Um The non-formal relational, like we have, we have friends that are doing it well. And And we can copy them, and you're kind of like, no wonder you're in trouble, yeah, right?
Like, because you don't have no one, yeah, it's like there's no vision, even for what a healthy relationship looks like. because everyone they look at is bent. And so, well, gee, we're We're just as bent as they are. There's no hope. Yeah, exactly.
And so, having especially the community of the church, where statistically, Truly, the church is filled with people with good marriages. I know that that sounds funny because we've heard the opposite. It's true. Yeah.
There are plenty of people in the church, not with perfect marriages, but with good marriages who could just befriend another couple and walk alongside. That makes them a good marriage because they're not perfect. Yeah, yeah. And that. that that mentor capacity of Of being able to be with people, be with someone who.
Um Who is Is not depressed to the degree that they can't get out of bed, but but have been touched by melancholy. Or they know what it's like. Mm-hmm. to carry fear like in their stomach all day long. And yet they still have hope.
They still are. are are graciously dependent on Jesus to guide their life and provide for everything that is in front of them. I'm thinking of our incredible listeners who love Jesus, but also may feel like My kids are gone. I feel like there's not much purpose. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing.
Like, this is for you. This is totally for you. Even if you just are married and you guys are struggling along, but man, I wish we could have more of an impact. This is for you. But.
Well, just even have a dinner. Invite somebody to dinner. Yeah, I was just going to say, but on their behalf, they're thinking probably this, but I don't know how. I don't know what to do. I do need some training, don't I?
Are you saying just be afraid? That's why we wrote the book. Yeah, right, right. And built out. The Church Cares Initiative, which is like, here are the videos, here's the manual.
Here's the kit for every church. The kit that has all the resources. Here's the attorney that wrote the how not to get sued as a church. Seriously, no, all of it. Yeah, that's a big deal.
That's one of the reasons, as a pastor, I would often refer. Yeah.
Because I have that fear in the back of my mind. I'm not. Particularly skilled with the crisis trauma situation. If I had handled this wrong, okay, here's a little bit of here's a little bit of free consulting for all the pastors out there. She's going to send you a bill.
No, because one of the things that our legal experts said, which was really helpful, Is, and this is something that a lot of pastors haven't even thought of: is that if you put in the bylaws of the church that we are a place. That does care. And this is part of religious discipleship, not therapy. And everybody participates voluntarily? And that's important.
Like for people, if you're going to do like an official like lay counseling thing or something, everybody needs to say, yeah, like sign a absolutely, I'm doing this voluntarily. Then it, you know, of course, in today's environment, it doesn't prevent somebody bringing a lawsuit, whatever, but those are very rare. And that usually will, well, not usually, it really should protect the church. And a lot of pastors just don't know. Add a line or two to your bylaws.
Like, that's it. Yeah.
Do your job. Yeah.
And your job is to care for people who are hurt and recognize. In appropriate context, we will refer out to medical, we will refer out to licensed professional clinicians. But even with the wolves those we refer out to, We are still responsible for the care of the community that this church exists in. That's why churches have a not-for-profit status and exist in the community to render care to everyone who's there. And you have all the material available for churches to do this.
We've spent the last couple years not just talking to churches, you know, but also what do they need? And so, literally, like, if you're listening to this and you are the Bonnie or the Bob, like, you're like, I feel like I'm the person everybody always comes to. Like, I could start something like this at the church. God bless you. Don't put it on the pastor.
Go to the pastor and say, I want to help you. Yeah.
Right? Like, not pastor, you need to do this. But I want to do this. Get the kit. It tells you everything that you need to do.
And then you adapt it for your church, your mission, your DNA, your style. Yeah.
And okay, let me just add this: you can go to familylifetoday.com right now, show notes, click on the link. We'll have the kit there that you can buy. It's not to buy, it's free. It's free. It's free.
You can get it for free. You just tripled the number of people who are going to do that. And I just want to say to our guides, Family Life has guides, thousands of them all around the world. Been to a weekend member, gone through a Family Life resource. And they're like, I feel like God wants to use my marriage to help other marriages.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting, you know, as I as I hear you talk, two thoughts. One is A lot of us in the church world, I'm not talking pastors, people attend church. No, we're supposed to disciple others. I mean, if your pastor, your church is doing anything right. We do this family life all the time.
We're like, we are called to the great commission. Disciples make multiplying disciples.
So I think there's a sense that I'm supposed to do that. I think they get stuck with. But I'm not very good, and I'm not sure how. This gives another lane to think about it. Yes.
Like, So I can be a friend, or maybe it's my marriage God wants me to use. That's the tool that God wants to use in my life. To make disciples thinking, somebody raises an issue that there's a red flag, like, oh, they're hurting. By the way, everybody is, but you sense it, and I'm the one that heard that. Oh, so God's God wants us to step into this as a friendship and I'm making a disciple.
Right, right, yes, and to not be afraid of it, yeah, right. Like, I spent so many years being afraid of counseling, right? Like, it just because I'm just, I don't know what I'm doing, like, it's why I always say, you know, I have my team, like when people call, does Shanti do counseling? No, but. Is Shanti called to be a friend?
To somebody who is in pain? Yes. And to pray for them. And to pray for them. And just can we have coffee every now and then?
And yes, all of us are. Is there a sense though? This is the other side of the devil's advocate in my mind that that a lot of the church doesn't really care. Oh, great question. I mean, I think we do, but sometimes I think, at least the untrustworthy case.
Or we don't have time. It feels like we say we care, but when somebody comes with a need, that me first attitude still in us, and we're like, yeah, but I want to take care of me. And I don't really have time because this is going to take time and it could go farther than I think. And I'm just going to. Either pass it on or not get involved.
Is there some of that happening as well? Absolutely. It is inconvenient to care for everybody, care for anybody. Like our kids took a lot out of us as we raised them. Yeah.
It wasn't not easy. Yeah.
And Uh Caring for other people. is really demanding attention. And you get exhausted. But it's a calling. It's a calling.
And a command. And if you do it in small chunks, so you're not responsible. Uh to care for For 200 people. How about two? How about the person who just happens to be placed in your life?
and you integrate other people into In into the care, so it's not just you carrying you bring them into your group, yes.
So, it's a community. I'll give you an example of this.
Okay. So. Because One, and I should say, by the way, just to make sure we say this out loud: one of the reasons people are like, ah, you know, I don't, is because our churches don't have a structure. Yeah.
For it, right? Like, if we had a structure where there were people who were lay listeners that were a little bit, you know, gone through just a teeny bit of listening training, and you know, like there's great ministries like Stephen Ministry, which is fantastic, but that's a whole nother level. I have 50 hours of training, right? And so some people are called to that, absolutely. But if our churches were to have like that basic structure, it wouldn't seem so overwhelming because there would be many people that some that could take on the person who's at the altar crying and who needs somebody to listen.
what everybody can do whether or not they're trained. is what you just said. And by the way. I just have to say this as a mom, and I'm sure you're thinking the same thing. Please, if you are in that phase where you Aren't even thinking straight because you're not getting enough sleep.
We are not putting more on you. Like you have three little kids. You do not, you're getting four hours of sleep a night. We're not trying to say you need to do one more thing. And hopefully, someone will invite you to do that.
Exactly. Those are the ones, I was just going to say that. Those are the ones who need it. But that mom who's exhausted? It is possible.
Keep an eye out because it may be that the woman you sit next to at the playground. Who starts talking about her difficult marriage? It just may be that speaking to her for 10 or 15 minutes breathes life into her, and you wouldn't have sort of noticed that otherwise.
So it's more be aware of this. With that idea, we are not looking to train. lay councillors. We are looking to train Christians.
So that it's not the people who feel called to this new ministry. Like the theater. Yeah, it's some of it.
Some will be. Um I have the vision of everybody that has interaction with anybody. In the church. needs to know how to sit with somebody else in pain.
So that if you are a A Preschool Sunday school teacher You need this because there's going to be that mom who's coming either dropping off or picking up and will look completely frazzled. And Just to be able to say Let Monica watch your daughter for a few minutes. Would you like to talk? Mm-hmm. And anybody in the church, the person that opens their front door or serves in the coffee bar.
is always interacting. And always in the position of I know what to do. when someone shows up and it's clear. that that someone needs to listen to them. And versus like.
Here's, enjoy this cup of coffee, have a good day. And and rather no, they need They need to enjoy relationship with Jesus in ways that are human. And not Not Caffeinated. Yeah, right. They're actual flesh on flesh.
You are here in this church. And God's put me in in presence with you right now. Yeah, one of the um One of the things Anne and I teach in vertical marriage, the last session, because it's the same thing that happens at a weekend, remember, you come thinking, I want a better marriage. Yeah.
You leave realizing oh It's like the woman's the well. I came for water. I left with living water. I come to get a better marriage, and hopefully, God meets you there. But then we send them out at the last session saying, He doesn't want to just fix your marriage.
He wants to use your marriage to fix others.
So now you're, we call it, make an impact on your corner of the world. I was in seminary when I first studied Matthew 5:14, which we all know, you are the light of the world. Right? Jesus, you're a salt. You're right.
Let me read something that. I think it is mind-boggling and applies to everything you're saying. I pulled it up right here. He says, You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
I'm guessing you've heard this verse many times in our. Listeners, viewers could he say, Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. In the same way, Let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Seminary. I'm studying this in the Greek because I'm learning Greek.
I'm not a doctorate like you guys, but I have a master's, right? And I realized that the phrase, a city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Literally, would read a city strategically placed on a hill. Cannot be hidden.
So then I'm like.
Okay, well, you know, that's pretty unique phrasing. What, and so I'm diving into this, reading commentaries and studying. And basically, realize when he said that to the disciples and the multitude, but really the disciples. They understood what he meant. We don't.
He meant. They don't just throw cities up around these villages and valleys here randomly. They strategically place them where people in the valley in the darkness have light and they need light here and they need light here.
So he's saying, you understand this. We don't understand this. We just think it's a cute phrase. He's saying, City planners, just like they do today, strategically place cities in strategic areas so people in the dark can find light. You are like a city.
So then I hear. And so the implication is, Jesus is saying God will strategically place you and me as light around people in darkness. Thank you for sharing that. That changes my mind. That changes everything.
So I came up with this phrase: make a dent where you're sent. And people started coming to me at mature because it became this thing that Wilson would say: make a dent where you're sent. And they'd be like, oh, we know where you're set. You're a pastor, you're a preacher, you get up, you have a calling. Where am I sent?
So I'm like, I got to come up with this. Yeah, profound statement. Here it is. This is profound. You ready?
Make a dent where you're sent. You are sent where you are. It's not profound. It's like the dumbest thing ever, but is it true? It's true.
You're strategically placed.
So, what you're saying. Is every guide in family life, every Christian in the world, in a sense? Every day And again, I'm not saying we don't make decisions to get in this Uber or get on this plane. We do, we have free will, but God is saying. You're my light.
Yeah, this person you just had a coffee with, or walked up to you at the end of the service, or sat beside you at church and said something about their pain. You're my strategic light, light, shine. Yeah.
Yeah, be a friend, invite him over for a coffee. This is what you're saying. If the church understood that. I don't think there'd be enough room in churches because people would be running to our churches because they're like, like that sign said, You can help my marriage. You can help me in my pain.
Yes. I'm going to that place. And I like what you're saying, too. You're not saying you have to, you know, drop the big theology. You're saying, you know what they need?
They just need to have someone listen to them. And by the way, one of the things that I loved, I loved when I saw this number come in on the survey.
Sorry, I have to go back to the numbers. But it really, like, it almost made me tear up. Is even though the pastors said, I don't feel qualified, right? Like, I feel like I'm supposed to refer out, 96% of the pastors agreed. With the statement that the best possible way to instill great mental health in the church, mental and emotional health, is a community of believers supporting one another.
Oh, yeah. It's what the church is supposed to do. Exactly. Oh, God. And I think it's the X2 church.
Yeah, that's what it was. They had everything in common. They shared meals together. It was the model of here it is. They didn't even need a building.
Yeah.
It's the community. You guys. Geez, I hope this thing blows up. That's what I was going to say. We're praying.
We're praying for the church to catch the vision. We're praying for the body of Christ to catch the vision, right? Each of us, right? Yeah.
I think it'd be like Shanti talk. To the listener specifically when they go to church this week, or you, Jim. Like, how does that change their view as they walk into the world? Actually, don't just talk to the church. Talk to Family Life guides who are listening right now.
I recognize in writing this book. Um Uh Yeah. Ooh. God, you're telling me this is not right what I do. I fly in to church on Sunday morning, usually late.
I don't know what you're talking about. I see you walk in, I'm out there preaching, and you finally show up, and I'm looking at my watch, and I like. Fast to my car because it's 15 minutes of sitting in the parking lot, unless you're first to your car.
So it's we see you guys walking out early. It's that race to your car, like this is the start of a Formula One race. And Like wait a minute. There's all these Yeah. 1500 people that go to my church.
They're all here. And I'm zipping in and zipping out just on Sunday. Mm. And and I did not meet a single soul. And there are people all around, Heather and I, sitting up on our little perch spot.
And I don't know their names. And I've sat with them up in this area of the church. Uh for years. We reckon that that's your row. Uh But but we've never interacted.
And I don't know what their hurt is. Hmm. And like Okay. That's twisted, warped and really, really bad. Just to put it plainly.
Yeah.
And like, oh, go look. When hurting people come to church, I'm looking at 1,500 people, and we all are. Hmm. And and to shift the idea from That The worship experience is the pastor and the music. Yes, yes, yes, and the worship experience is someone caring for you.
You and someone allowing someone actually to care for me. Yeah.
But we're not even thinking about that. Yeah.
It's one of the reasons why getting to know others in the church and building what you can of a community around you. Is so powerful because it allows you to say things like, well, come to our small group. Right. Like, if you don't have a small group, you can't say that, right? Like, come to our small group.
You know, hey, the mom's group meets on Saturday mornings. Come to our mom's group. Like, build those opportunities and be a part of them. And I'm sure, by the way, that I am preaching to the choir because I know the family life listeners, and you all get this. You all are these people.
So we're hoping you will take the next step. Which is how can we build a system in the church if it doesn't have one? And even you asked the question, and I appreciate it so much. Like, what can they do? Show up ten minutes early on Sunday.
Uh That person that you've just observed. and you've watched them from a distance. They're sitting in that chair over there. Like, sit down and say hi. Oh, Jim.
I will add this too, Jim. Our son, who is also a preacher, one of them is, and He uses the term, put on your God goggles so you can see people the way God sees them. What would that look like, even as a family? Hey. Hey, we're going in here.
Let's put on our God goggles. Lord, will you show us? And help us to love people and see people the way you do. It's just that intentional little bit like, oops. We're going into love and see and serve.
You know, as easy as that. And to get your kids to start looking for that, how can I just listen to you? Can I pray for you? Can I laugh with you? Yeah.
Very good. Yeah, I'm even thinking, you know, again, I go back to the family life guides. Who often I think they do the same thing church people do is like, oh, you need to meet with the pastor, whether it's. You know, the speaker at the weekend remember, or David Ann the host, whatever it is, they think it's that. And it's like, no, the mind shift needs to be: I'm the pastor.
Yeah.
I'm the light. They're lights too, but I'm the light. And, you know, in a ministry like this, like, we have all these tools. Just use one. Maybe people are at your house.
Hey, we're going to go through love like a minute. We're going to go through vertical marriage. We're going to go through the new art of marriage. I'm telling you, most of us Underestimate this. If you invited somebody to your house, a neighbor who never goes to church, to say, You want some marriage help?
You want a better marriage? We've got a tool. Like we're struggling, but maybe you are too. And you can even say, hey, you know, I'm going to tell you, it's faith-based.
So I'm not going to hide anything. It's faith-based. But if you want a better marriage, I can almost guarantee you this will help. I'll bet you they'd show up. And next thing you know, it's like, God's using me?
Yeah.
You know, all I did is put a tool in my hand and I used it. That's what. Yeah.
I mean, it literally could change the world. Yeah.
You don't invite them to church. Yeah.
You invite them to coffee. Yeah.
You guys, this is really good. Thank you for putting the time, energy, everything into it because It's needed. It's really needed. Yeah, and I I like I said, I hope this blows up. Me too.
Around the world. Yeah.
And it's free. Familylifetoday.com. Show notes. Click the link. It's free.
You can literally be the light in your neighborhood that could literally change somebody's eternity. Literally. I'm not using that word wrong. It's just a matter of time. No, it's true.
Yeah.
Thanks. Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button. Yeah, and we'd like you to subscribe.
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