Be a Godly Woman in a World That Wants You to Be a Boss | Kristen Clark

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Now. You know, as women, man, we have so many giftings and talents, and there are unique ways God will open doors for us to use them. There is this funnel for female success, and it's not necessarily rooted in God's word. We encourage young women to just ask the question: will this path I'm pursuing be hospitable? toward the path of marriage and motherhood if God calls me down that one day.

Okay, Kristen, here's my question to start us out. Are we as women in our culture today being lied to about what a woman is? Absolutely. We are. You would say absolutely.

Absolutely. We are being lied to without even realizing it. And I think so on both ends of the spectrum.

So it's not just worldly lies that are coming from unbiblical places, but I think in some ways there are, there have been conservative movements saying this is what it means to be a woman. This is what godly womanhood is. But some of those standards from Christian movements aren't even rooted in the word.

So we're actually being lied to from both ends of the spectrum, from the world's version of what it means to be a womanhood, totally rejecting God's word, defining things on our own terms, doing things our way. And then in some ways, the church has gotten it wrong as well, saying this is what it means to be a woman. But again, it's not actually rooted in God's word.

So it's hard. It's hard to soar through the noise and to get back to God's word and say, what does the Bible actually say it means to be a woman? What was that look you just gave me? I mean, the look was: that's a bold statement. Yeah, I love it.

Which on both ends, meeting. I love it. I mean, it's like you just said. The church, I'm sitting there as a pastor, like, have I lied? Have I, have I taught God's word wrong in the world?

And, you know, I'm sitting here thinking, I'm watching two generations sitting in front of me of women, you know, because Ann and I grew up in the 60s and the 70s when there was a feminist movement, right? You know, that you reference in this great book, Made to Be She, Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Feminine. Femininity. It's a tongue twister. Femininity.

I know. It's like fearless femininity. But, you know, we sort of, I mean, I can't speak for you. You were. I mean, I remember Helen Reddy.

Yes. That was a big song in my generation. I am Woman. Hear me. Reward, right?

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like, and so she's sort of grown up in that. You're now a next generation looking at it. How is, what's the lie been? Talk about first the world, I guess.

Yeah, well, so if you ask a woman today, a young woman today, what does it mean to be a feminist? You will get so many answers. In fact, I share a story in May DB She. I was working at this, volunteering at this home for younger women who were getting help. And there was this young 16-year-old girl.

And she just looked at me out of the blue and she said, Are you a feminist? And I said, well, what do you mean by feminist? And then she said, well, I just mean that I don't need a man and I can do things my way. I'm strong. And so that opened the door for a very interesting conversation with this young woman.

And it really got my wheels turning to realize that feminism isn't just this thing that happened. And there are, there were the waves, you know, the first wave, the second wave, the third wave of feminism. We kind of think of it in historical terms, but it is really alive and well in the hearts of young women, women that are much younger than me in this generation of women who are saying, yeah, I identify as a feminist. And I think for so many of them, what it means is that. Just like this young woman said, I don't need a man.

I can do things my way. I'm strong. I'm independent. I'm capable. You know, some things that I would say, yeah, we do need to have.

We need to have some of this independence, this capability, of course. But when you get to the heart of what they're saying, it's really, I'm a woman on my own terms. I will define what it means to be a woman. I'm not looking to men in any way. I'm not looking to God's word in any way.

I'm a strong woman because I can define this for myself. And being the same as a man, being equal, you know, as a man, or even being more powerful, stronger than a man, that's what makes me this liberated woman.

So, talking to this young woman, I realized, like, wow, this is really alive and well. And it got me thinking in my own heart: how have I bought into some of these lies of the feminist movements that have happened? They've left behind, the feminist movements have left behind this ideology in our churches, in our society, in our culture of what it means to be a woman. And it's not looking to God's word in any way, shape, or form to define it. It's really looking within ourselves, looking to other women to define what it means to be a woman.

So, that was pretty eye-opening for me to hear that from her. What did you discover as you looked into your own life? What were some of the things that you carried that you weren't even aware of? Oh my goodness.

Okay, so I'm married. We've been married for now 14 years. And one of the struggles that I saw as I was really digging into writing about these past movements, because we wanted in our book to unpack, what were the movements? How? How have they impacted our thinking today?

And you and your sister, Bethany, wrote this book. Yeah, we wrote it together. It was probably one of the hardest books we've written because, like I said early on, we wanted to get to God's word. We didn't want to add to the noise. We didn't want to add our own convictions, our own things we were taught from the church, but really, what does God's word actually say?

And yes, there's a lot of truth that we learned in the church. I'm not saying it's all lies. There were so many wonderful, amazing, biblically grounded things, but there were things that we added on. Ourselves to what it means to be a woman that are not found in God's word. But for me, some of the things that the feminist movements and the ideologies have impacted in my own life as I did some hard examination was I saw I do have this desire to be fiercely independent from my husband.

And when we see in God's word, which we unpack, I don't know if we'll get into the roles topic and the husband and the wife and the distinctions between the man and the woman. But I saw in my own heart this desire to want to push against my husband, to want to push against his leadership, to want to push against his opinions, his thoughts, his ideas, and do things my way. My way. That I am now. I don't even know what you're talking about right now.

You are describing our marriage right there. And there's some of that that I love about her, the strength. Right. But you're right, there can be this real tension. Right.

Well, and then you think, does that independence just come from personality? Or have we been shaped? Yeah. And have we been hurt in a way that's made us become more independent because we couldn't depend on a man or a husband?

So there's so much even to that. There's so much in there. And something that I was wrestling with recently was the idea of, and I've never struggled with this. It's so crazy. But my husband is a breadwinner in our family.

He always has been. He's been an amazing provider. And recently I have taken some steps back in some of my roles ministry wise and so have taken also steps back in pay. And for the first time, I was really wrestling with almost my identity and like, oh, I'm not really bringing in as much as I was financially into our family. Yes, he's the breadwinner.

I appreciate that. I'm grateful for his provision. But it was almost this little lie that was creeping into my heart: like, well, you're not as valuable as a woman. Look at you, you're not really contributing financially. And then almost this fear in my heart of like, Oh no, like I'm not worth as much.

I need to be doing more, even though I know God is calling me to be a full-time mom to three precious kids. We homeschool. Life is very full on that front. It's what I've prayed for for years after a decade of infertility. I am so grateful.

But that lie just like boom hit me out of nowhere. And I really had to fight against that. I remember being in a doctor's office, and you write about this too. And I had to fill in my occupation when our kids were all little. And we were, we would speak periodically, but I was mainly a stay-at-home mom.

I couldn't put that down. And I was so like, why can't I write that? I could I put like speaker or something. Yes. Because of The world says that occupation isn't as worthy as absolutely other fields.

And that was one of the huge pushes back when you were younger. You talk about 60s, 70s, 80s. That era of the feminist movement was really pushing this idea that what a woman does inside the home is basically worthless and has no value. What she does outside of the home in the workplace, you know, the feminist movement was really pushing for this idea of equality between men and women, but it wasn't, it was equality on the fronts of financial equality, of role equality, meaning the same, unless women are making the same amount of money or more as men, unless they are doing the same jobs as men. In fact, there was one quote we write in our book where one feminist said that her goal was for 50% of the jobs to be, or for 100% of the jobs to be 50% employed by women.

So women would come in and occupy 50% of the workforce, which means what happens at home? Women are encouraged, not only encouraged, but pushed. Are we fed this lie for years that says what you do in the home doesn't matter? Anyone can do that. Anyone can watch your kids.

Anyone can cook a meal. You need to get out there and make something happen. You need to be successful.

So there was a lot of pressure in that era for women to get out of the home. You just stepped on a whole bunch of toes. No, I know. Because women are like, what? Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Because we should have equal pay and we should be in the workforce. But. What's at risk? What's at stake? And why are we doing it?

Is that what you're saying? Yes, I'm getting after this heart of the feminist movement was devaluing the home to say what a woman does in the home has no value. It has no worth because there isn't a paycheck tied to it. And so absolutely, women bring so much value in the workforce. And I'm not here saying women shouldn't be in the workforce in any way, shape, or form.

In fact, I was in the workforce for many years, not in this professional career capacity, but working full-time ministry outside of the home. But what it really comes down to is us as women recognizing: okay, there are a lot of opinions, there's a lot of noise, there are intentional movements shaping my thoughts about these things. But what does God's word say? What does he value? And does my heart align with his?

And that's going to look different for now. Our hearts aligning with God's word is the truth that we're all pursuing, should be pursuing, but the way that plays out in each of our seasons of life, right? Like Ann, you're in a season where you can do so much outside the home. Home. You don't have kids at home.

I've got a one-year-old, a 15-year-old, 11-year-old. They are needy. These kids need a lot of things. And Chris.

So the way I prioritize might look different than the way you do. And that's the truth. There's not one minute.

Now that I look back and regret. That I was home. When I started having kids, we had been married six years, so we waited a while. And I had that same crisis. It's an identity crisis.

Who am I apart from what I'm doing? And so it makes you dig down into your identity. Who am I in Christ apart from what I'm doing? Because that's what matters. And you guys talk about that a lot.

But I mean, I was home. And I could be, which was a gift too, because not everyone can financially. Yes. And we have to acknowledge that. Exactly.

But man, those were precious years. And it felt like a million years at the time. The days are slow. Yes. The years go fast.

But it flew by. And I'm so glad I don't have any regrets that I was home. Yeah. There is this intentional, we call it the funnel for female success. And it's this funnel that young women in particular, they're kind of set on this track without even realizing it today.

And it's this track of you finish high school, you immediately go to college, you need some sort of really successful degree so that you can get your job. You get time, you get in debt, you start working and you basically set yourself up to be so locked into your job, paying off your debt that one day, if you get married, which most women do still, most women still want to have kids, they find so many young women find themselves in this place in their later 20s, 30s, where they're still paying off debt. They worked hard to earn their degree understandably.

So they're working. And now they're trying to get out. There's this tension where they have this, they're married, they have their first baby, and they're going, I don't know what to do. I want to be, I want to spend more time with my baby, but I can't because I need to work. I need to put to use this degree that I've earned or this career path that I'm on.

If I step out, I'm going to be way behind, you know, my goals, all these things, and this whole girl boss mentality. And so I'm seeing this tension. And I get emails from women who are saying, I don't know what to do. I am 30. No one told me I was going to face this.

No one told me this was going to be a tension point in my life. And now my husband are trying to figure out how to make this work. I want to spend more time with my baby.

Some say, I want to be home altogether. I don't know how to make this work.

So something we talk about is young women recognize that there is this funnel for female success. And it's not necessarily rooted in God's word for you to just take a step back and say, God has gifted me in many ways. We, you know, as women, man, we have so many giftings and talents, and there are unique ways God will open doors for us to use them. But for women, we encourage young women to just ask the question: will this path I'm pursuing be hospitable? Toward the path of marriage and motherhood, if God calls me down that one day.

So just thinking ahead five years, 10 years, if I go down this path, am I going to be, is there going to be this big tension point in my life, this big conflict where now I'm choosing between one or the other? Or is it possible to pursue a path when you're young that sets you up for success?

So when you're older, you can easily shift into one, shift out of the other, you know, as seasons ebb and flow.

So that's just a huge encouragement we give to young women. Just think ahead and plan ahead. And when you guys have reached out and you've helped them walk through that idea, have they been grateful? Has it helped? And you've talked to people that they've actually taken your advice.

Yes, yes, we have. And there have been women who we actually got an email from one woman who we knew her from a friend, and she said, you know, I was working full-time. I had full-time childcare for my baby. And I read some of your stuff. I heard an episode you had on your podcast.

And I went home to my husband and I said, my priorities have been all backwards for their family. You know, everyone has, you know, They're going to have to figure out what works for them. But she said, My priorities have been all backwards. She's like, I know that God wants me to be home with my baby, raising my kids.

So she said, I told my husband right then, how can we make this work financially? What can we change? Let's make sacrifices. And they completely revamped their entire way their family had been operating and made sacrifices, chose to live on less so that she could be home with her baby, spending more time with her, and actually able to raise her. And I know that's not possible for every single family, but I think it is for more families than they realize that we just take a step back and say, where have my priorities been?

How can I value this role, not view it then less than, not view the paycheck as the only thing that makes something successful, but recognize that God has made men and women differently. And the way that we fulfill those roles within the family is a beautiful thing, a complementary thing, but it's going to be played out in different ways.

So, what do you say to the women? It feels like, and again, I'm not in your world like you guys are. I'm not talking to very many women, but at least it seems like I hear some women say, I love working. I love what I'm doing. I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I have daycare, whatever.

Again, I don't know. There's all kinds of scenarios, but they. They feel like they're thriving in that world. Yeah. Is that a A bad thing?

Like I said before, God has gifted us in so many ways as women. I'm a type A. I am a getter. Like I love a checklist and to-dos that I love having a full plate full of great things that I'm working at. But something that I've had to really evaluate in my own heart and ask the question, is this the right season of life for me to pursue this certain thing outside the home using giftings that God has given me?

Is this the right season for that? And so for women, it's not that you're saying, we're telling women, you need to give up all the things that the ways God has gifted you and the degrees you've pursued, but you might consider. putting those a little bit on the back burner for a time. If you have young children in the home and somebody else is, you know, spending eight, nine, 10 hours a day watching them and you're unable to be with them, to disciple them, to nurture those relationships as their mom, you might want to reconsider, is this the season for me to be more at home? And then when my kids are older, a season where I can go and pursue things outside the home in a more intentional way that I wasn't able to when they were younger.

So it's not know forever your whole life. It's just taking into account the various seasons and really asking the Lord, what would be faithful in this season? And it's a moment of surrender. Yeah. to Jesus.

I can remember And I loved ministry. Just as you said, Dave, like I love doing, I love impacting people with the gospel. I love working with women. And so I think our kids were six. Six, nine, and 11.

And I decided, like, I'm going to start the women's ministry at our church. Oh, wow. And man, I was pumped about it. I'm like, I'm going to do this. And I did do it.

Sure. I think I did it for two years. I stopped when they were at those ages.

So I think Cody was probably four when I started. And I'm so type A that I can't let it go. When I'm home with the kids, I'm still thinking about it. I'm still on the phone. I'm still grinding on it.

And I was exhausted. I was so tired when I got home. I had nothing left. And so I remember praying about it and saying that question: Lord, is this the season? Should I be doing this now or should I wait?

And being really open, like To what that means, even financially. And I decided to wait. And I'll never forget, I was putting our then six-year-old, because I had stopped, and I put him to bed. He says, Mom, You've been home like every day and you've been playing basketball with me every day. Oh, my goodness.

And I said, Yeah, what do you think about that? And he hugged me. He goes, That is the best present you could have ever given me.

So much innocent makes me want to cry. But it's, I look at that and I think, I'm developing these little warriors for Jesus. And I was done, like, they were out of the house when I was in my 40s still. And I've had I've gotten to do all of those things that I had wanted to do. Yeah.

Oh, that's so what are you thinking?

Well, I remember I remember those days. And you know, it was it was interesting because when she took over the women's ministry, It thrived. I remember watching her going, she's a better leader than I am. This ministry is blowing up in our church. And there were.

tens of thousands of people, but it was like, wow.

So in one point, I'm like, wow, you're really good. Go. And then back then, you know, I'm not kidding. We had a phone with a cord. They were not corded phones.

I remember though. I'm old enough to remember those. And I remember the image in my mind of those that season was Ann on a phone walking around the kitchen with a kid in her lap making dinner. Talking strategy with all these women, meetings in our home. It was thriving, but it was like, wow, she really is.

Like singular focused. Yeah. And it was like, hey, you know, I'm multitasking. It was sort of like, I've got three things going on. She was like, The hundred things, she's spinning all the plates.

And so, I mean, I mean, looking back, and I do remember Cody saying that it was like she just cry. It was a hard decision, but it was the right one. For sure. And it's not that you're, it's two really good things, right? And I think that's the tension for us as women sometimes.

We're like, oh, this is a really good thing, this ministry, this job. I'm helping people. I am blessing people. I'm serving people. I am making people's lives better.

But what's the trade-off? And that's what we have to ask: is this really good thing? And then this calling to be a wife and a mom and do that in an intentional way to disciple and nurture those relationships, you know, you can't have it all at the same time. And that is another big lie of the feminist movements: this idea that women can have it all, that we should somehow be able to do everything in the home and everything in the workplace and manage all of it and have, you know, the same type of work as a man outside the home, but then somehow manage all of the chores, you know, the dishes, the laundry, the cooking, getting the Bible in, working out. You know, exactly.

Not to mention, yeah, working out and getting your Bible in, these things that we value and that other relationships, church women, we're trying to invest in, you know, all these things. But we are told, yes, you can have it all and you should have it all. But as you see the lives of women, in fact, there was a study done not too long ago. I can't remember the name of it. We write, we talk about it in May to be she, but they basically said, despite 40 years.

Fighting for women's rights, fighting for women to have, you know, to be equal with men in every single way, and not in the sense of identity, but in the sense of equal jobs and equal time spent in the workforce, those sort of things. They said, despite 40 years of this, women are less happy now than they were before the feminist movement began. And they surveyed a bunch of women.

So something isn't adding up. We're told we can have it all. We're told we should have it all. We're told happiness is found outside of the home and everything we do outside is going to be more valuable than inside. But somehow we're still trying to manage both.

And women are burning out. They are exhausted. And I've even seen this, especially right now. There's this big movement amongst my generation, millennials, of women having side hustles. And I am all for side hustles.

I think it's amazing that women are using their unique giftings to creatively work from their home and have small businesses and bring in extra income. But there's this pressure that I'm seeing on stay-at-home moms right now having to have a Side hustle. Like, unless you have your side hustle going and you've got your influencer account on Instagram and you're making the money, then you're not enough. You know, even being a stay-at-home mom isn't enough unless you have your side hustle. And so I see these women working, working, hustling, hustling, trying to make this thing happen.

And they're also burning out. But, you know, on paper, they're like, well, I'm a stay-at-home mom. But you're not actually, it's not just about staying home, right? And that's what we say. It's not just that you're physically home, it's that you're there emotionally, mentally, spiritually, that you're able to give to your family the things that your family needs in that season of life.

And yes, there are things you can, other things you can do, but again, it's that balance. How much can I take on over here? Because something else is going to have to give. And I think as women, we think we can do it all, but it's not working.

Something's slipping.

Something's given. Yeah. And it's, it's the family. I've seen that in my own life. In fact, my sister and I just recently, very honestly, after we wrote Made to Be She, which you know, writing a book is a very intense process.

It takes a lot of time. And then you think it's amazing. And then your editor sends it back with chapters ripped out and pages marked X's. And you're like, no. Back to the drawing board.

It's like knife in the heart, right? It's exhausting. And even she and I were just talking, like, you know, I wonder if now that each of us are in seasons of having young kids in the home, we weren't when we started Girl to Find, neither of us. She wasn't married and I didn't have kids. You know, I, 10 years, I didn't have kids, just with my infertility struggles.

And I was able to really pour into women and ministry and do so much outside of the home because she Just my husband and I, you know, I can cook him dinner. I can be there for him. It doesn't take that much time. But then when kids came on the scene for each of us, we really, we've had to reevaluate how we do things, how we prioritize things. Even in ministry, like you're saying, Ann, I think that I am, I can't run at the same level as I was before and still be there for my family in the way that I feel God is calling me to right now.

So even she and I have pulled back a lot in our ministry work outside, outside ministry work, because the home is ministry as well, so that we can be more invested and more available for our kids. You mentioned the basketball. My sons, 15 and 11, same thing. When I just go and spend time with them shooting, and it's always the sports, right? They, mom, come jump on the tramboline.

Mom, come play basketball. Mom, I'm like, I'm tired. I'm like, but I want to work out.

So I guess this is a good thing. But when you say yes to those little ones looking up at you, wanting to spend time with you, there is no greater gift in this world that you give them than that moment of saying yes and spending that time.

So. It is precious and you can't get it back. I love as you went through and you looked at the six biggest ways the feminist movement sought to redefine womanhood. Ooh. Ooh, those were, and the titles were, let's hit a couple of those, should we?

Yeah. Goodbye, we, hello, me.

Okay, so this was the first way feminism. This is interesting. This was one of the first. I would say the first moves that feminism made back in the early 1900s, I mean, you wouldn't looking back on this, you wouldn't even really think this was something that was influencing women to think differently, but there really was this movement of women pushing for independence in a way that was separating the husband and the wife within the family.

So it wasn't so much the we as in the family. We are united in our decision making. We're united in even how we vote, you know, women's suffrage. There has been some interesting historical work done by some different Christian women who have uncovered that. And I know this is like big red hot buttons.

I don't mean to stir up anything here, but just saying, okay, let's stir it up. Even in women's suffrage, a lot of the mentality behind the women who were pushing for the vote at face value, I'm like, absolutely, women voting. Yes, I'm all right. That's a good thing, right? But there's some controversy there that I didn't even know was there.

And it's that there was, there were feminist movements behind the scenes pushing for this idea of the family not being a united unit, like where the family votes as a unit and the husband is the representative head of the family, but rather that women and men needed to each have their individualism, their autonomy, that the family unit would not be viewed as one unit, but rather separate individuals. And now the husband and the wife would vote separately. And I know that that sounds like, but that could be a good thing, but it's interesting because it went from this, we as a family are voting in this way to the husband's voting this way, the wife is voting this way. And it became much more, like I said, autonomous, individual, separated.

So it really. really was a battle for going from the we to The me, to the society that was much more individualistic. That's the word that we use in there.

So there was some controversy. There were Christian women at the time who were not on board, not because they didn't want to vote, but because they didn't like the shift in society going from the family unit we to this individualistic idea of separation of the husband and wife being separate.

So that was just kind of interesting. And we say, we're like, you know, we're not, we're not trying to enter this debate necessarily, but we're just saying, look at these small shifts that happened where it wasn't just one thing all the way to where we are today, you know, in our society now where men can be women, women can be men, there's really no roles at all in marriage, sexuality, everything's been redefined, rewritten. You go back in time, you say, well, look at these families back then. They were so traditional and they seem so much more grounded in the word, but just one step at a time, one slippery slope at a time, one separation of the family unit just laid the next, I guess, domino, if you will. The dominoes were falling and this was one of the things that kind of kicked off this idea of men and women in their marriage viewing themselves more as separate individuals rather than a united front.

I have never even thought of that. I know. Have you? No, it wasn't until we started. You researched.

You see how women that have a good. God-loving marriage, right? Where he's leading by serving, like, like. Yes. Like our perfect marriage.

Dave would represent us. You can see that. Right. And you would say he would do that.

Well, I would trust him. Yes. But there are probably a lot of marriages of a very domineering, ungodly. I'm also guessing, you know, when I hear this, and again, I want to get into the vote thing. Right, right.

Because I'm really glad women are voting. Right. And I am. And you are too. Yes.

But I'm guessing. And maybe I'm totally wrong. Most husband and wives probably vote Similar. Yeah. In fact, let me ask.

Hey, what's the percentage of husbands and wives who vote for the same candidate? We'll see if it comes right. We're doing like a live search right now. That's right. Um Gender gap voting choices in presidential elections.

Oh, it doesn't give me anything. Oh, come on. You guys shouldn't look at that up, Jim, and. Give us the scoop. We want to know.

Who are you asking? Chat GPT? Yeah. Who would you guys ask? Yeah, go ahead.

I just asked Siri. Bruce. Oh, chat GPT is the way to do it. Yeah, you got to do AI. Yeah.

I don't even think I have it on the bottom. Married couples often or what's the question you're asking? Do married couples often vote for the same candidate? Yeah. Or how often?

How often do married couples vote for the same candidate? Studies suggest that married couples tend to vote the same way, but it's not always the case. There can be differences depending on factors like age, education, and political views. See?

Well, that was really helpful. It was like basically saying. Yeah, I'm guessing it's like they for said. I bet it's pretty similar. I bet it is too.

Yeah, I'd imagine. I mean, you guys, just looking at 80%. 80%. That would be a 10. I was going to say 8 out of 10.

That was going to be my number. You didn't say it, though. I didn't. I am going to say it now, though. I think it's about.

Now we have ChatGPT's facts, right?

Okay, that's just giving everybody something to talk about. Let's move on to the next one: move over, dude. I've got this. Ooh, okay.

So, move over, dude. I've got this was this push for women, again, to be totally independent from their husbands.

So, traditionally, as we unpack later in the book, God's Design for Men and Women, we see that God very intentionally designed the husband. We see this in Genesis. We see this in the New Testament in Ephesians, where God lays out the husband and the wife in marriage. God designed for the husband to have a leadership role within the family. And very intentionally, now that's God designed it to be a good role, right?

A godly, loving servant leadership, not this domineering, oppressive role. Where the husband is essentially laying down his life, his desires, his wants for the good of his family. But the feminist movement really viewed in so many ways, you know, the battle of the sexes, we hear that term, viewed these roles as a very negative and oppressive thing, that a man should have no leadership in any way over a woman, you know, quote unquote, that to be equal, they must be the same in their roles within the home, within the church, within the workplace, that in every way, they must be exactly the same in order to be equal. And so there was this push for, you know, move over, dude, where the wives are saying, hey, I've got this. I don't need you anymore.

Women were being told, look at you, you oppressive housewife. You've been living under this man's leadership. Get out. And then you'll be happy. Again, it was always this pursuit of happiness, that there is going to be some sort of fulfillment, some sort of happiness for you as a woman found on the other side of whatever they were pushing for in that moment, in that wave of feminism.

And for women, this was the one. This was the era where they were saying, get out, get out of your homes, get out from under your husband's leadership. It's not working. And now they're. It's interesting because there is some truth, right?

That if you are not a believer and you're not following the Lord, your husband's not following the Lord, those roles in a Christian marriage where you're following the Lord are very challenging, right? There's a lot of sin. And so, without the Lord, I would say these things don't make sense. They are in many ways, feel impossible because it is only with the Lord and with the husband and the wife submitting to Him, submitting to His designs, saying, God, your ways are better than our ways. Your desires for us and our family and these roles in marriage.

This is your good plan. Help us to lean into this. Help us to honor this, to trust you as we pursue this, even though we don't really get it, you know, all the time. We know that you're a good father and you have good plans.

So, as Christians, we can look and see that and we can remind ourselves of those truths. But I can understand why there were women in the feminist movement if you didn't have a loving husband. I mean, there are stories we talk about of women who were abused by their husbands. If you're in a terrible marriage, Because your husband is a horrible, evil man not loving you. I can understand why this would be very appealing for you as a woman and why you would think men are the problem.

I just need to get out from under them and find my liberation and my independence, then I'm going to be happy. But what we really unpack in that chapter is that men aren't the ultimate problem. Sin is the problem. Is the ultimate problem. It's the sin in the man's heart.

It's the sin in our hearts as women, and us saying, To heck with this, I'm gonna do things my way. Again, we're not doing things God's way, we're not going to Him, we're doing things our way. And so, until we as men and women recognize sin is the underlying issue, that's the problem, then no, we're never gonna get to a better and happier place. That story, well, this reminds me of the story. Do you know what I'm thinking of when?

You hear that, Dave. Move over, dude. I've got this. I don't know. Am I supposed to read your mind here?

No, I was thinking like your story would come to your mind too. And we wrote about this. Oh, it's so embarrassing. Maybe you can, I don't know if you'll relate to this, Kristen.

So, anyway, so Dave, we were having friends come into town, and Dave had booked a hotel. Oh. Months and months prior to that. It's in her last book. And so Dave's on the phone with the hotel, making sure, because it's in a few days, that they have the reservation, which was really smart of him to do that.

Actually, no, it was they were at the hotel and they said they don't have a reservation. Oh, I didn't know that. They called and said, We're standing here, there's no reservation. I'm like, Yeah, there is.

So I got on the phone and Basically, the girl said, No, you never booked it, which I did. But anyway, it wasn't booked. Oh, no. But while I'm doing this, literally, back on a corded phone, walking around the kitchen with this 100-foot cord, you know, stretching around everything. Dan is following me around, like, give me the phone, give me the phone.

I would say that. Give me the phone. Give it to me. Mike, you're not getting it done. I'll get it done.

It was like, move over, dude. I've got that.

So I finally get so frustrated. I just like throw the phone to her. Like, you're not getting it. He threw it on the ground. And she picked it up, and she didn't get it either.

Yeah. Tell him what I said. He threw the phone down, and because I was like right on his shoulder, give it to me, give it to me. Dude, I just got exasperated. Which he should have.

It's embarrassing that I did this. And so I get on the phone and he said, he throws the phone down on the ground. And then he says, why don't you just cut it off? And Talk about like demasculating him, but I got on the phone thinking, well, okay, that was really bad, but I'll get the hotel room. And I didn't.

But the pride and the arrogance in that, talk about repenting that night. Like, even if I did get the hotel room, was it worth what I had just done today? Move over, dude. I've got this. What does it make him feel?

Like nothing. Exactly, because that's what we're communicating. Like, you are incapable. Yes. Let me swoop in as the superhero and take this over so it can get done right.

And that's very much in our culture today. For sure. Well, I mean, there's the other side of that, though, that's like you're celebrating some of the power that women have, especially now. That we've watched, like in sports. You know, we watched the movie, I don't know what it's called, where women weren't allowed to swim in a pool.

You know, there's a story about this woman who literally set records. And I didn't even know this back in the 30s before they couldn't swim in a men's pool. They had to, and they didn't think they could swim or compete. And then this one woman sits and they're like, oh, they're gifted. There's women doing things that you're like, that's good.

It's like, you didn't think women could do it and they're better men. And so move over, man. I got this. In some ways, there's always this line of truth, like, there's some good in that, but there's a lot of bad.

Well, and we're not saying women are incapable, right? At all. Again, Anna and I are like, no, we're very capable women. But something we say again and again, just girl-defined ministries and in Made TB She is that God created men and women to be. Purposely different, but equal in value.

We are created to be equal in worth, but different in function. Both are really needed. And 100%. When we, when we. Live out our God-defined roles with men embracing godly masculinity and women leaning into godly femininity.

You know, just look at our bodies. Like, we are so different, not to mention our hormones, not to mention the way that women can give birth to children, have this natural inclination to nurture life. Like, there are very clear physical distinctions that we can see, but our society just erases those and says, No, those don't matter. There is nothing there to see. Men and women should do everything the same in every way, shape, or form.

There are no distinctions. And that has gone to the farthest end you can possibly take it, where men are saying, Well, I can be a woman if I just declare it. What does it mean to be a woman? Our society can't define it anymore.

So, anybody who declares I'm a woman can be a woman. What do you think the culture says? If they would say, let's say, and you've heard this too, if they say, What is a woman? But what do you think they say?

Well, I've seen what they say, and they don't say much. They basically say, Well, that's really hard to define. In fact, we looked up some, Cosmo magazine had some interviews that they had done of women asking the question, What does it mean to be a woman? And there were like six or eight different college age and then some young 20s, 30s working women. And their answers were so interesting.

And we write them, we quote them in Made to Be She because we just found it fascinating. But each one, the essence of what they said, they would start it off by saying, Well, to me, being a woman means that I'm, and then they would go to list the maybe the attributes or character qualities of what they think it means to be a woman. And so, for example, one of them said, To me, being a woman means that I am strong, that I'm independent, that I know what I want and that I go after it, that I don't give up. And you're just kind of naming these characteristics, right? But at the end of the day, you're still left wondering, Well, what does it actually mean to be a woman, right?

And so, it's, It's just interesting to see what society says because even a man could get on there. And I don't know if they had any transgender men on this in this article, but a man could say, Well, being a woman to me means that I am. That I'm female, that I'm strong, that I'm independent. He could say all the same things, and the world would applaud him and say, Yay, you are a strong woman. But he's actually a man, you know?

So it's very confusing. And I think that's one of the enemy's great lies: if he can distort. And confuse for all of us what it even means, the basics of what it means to be a man and a woman, and the fact that there are even lines, right? Male on the left, women on the right. If he can blur those lines and say anyone can cross over this line, it doesn't matter.

You can go back and forth. It's whatever you believe it means for you. Then what have we ultimately lost? We have ultimately lost the picture that gender points back to, which is the gospel. We, gender as man and woman, we see this in Ephesians, right?

That gender, the marriage specifically, is painting this incredible picture. It's this visual representation of Christ and his church, and Christ as the groom representing the male pursuing his bride in this sacrificial leadership, loving way. And then the bride represents the woman, right? Responding. She's responsive to his leadership.

She welcomes his leadership. She wants it. And together, the man and the woman living out those roles in marriage are pointing back to Christ and the Church pointing back to the gospel. And so, in our society, when we say it doesn't matter, anyone can be anything. I think our enemy is very crafty because he is completely blurring that picture of the gospel.

We're losing sight of what gender was ultimately meant to point back to. If somebody asks you, as we're asking right now, what is it to be a biblical woman? Yeah. Well, we wrote a whole book, Made to Be She. It is, it's hard to unpack it in one sentence, but I would say: a woman who knows that she is a child of God, first and foremost.

A woman who knows she was created by her creator. She is made to be she, not. decided to be she, became a she, she was made. Be she, she knows who her creator is, and that he has a good design for her, a good plan for her. That she is, she knows she's a sinner in need of a savior, that she is walking in the forgiveness and the redemption that her savior provides for her, and that her identity is not what her accomplishments are, it's not her season of life, whether she's married, unmarried, single, divorced.

It's not her season of life, it's not her stage of life. If she's working, she's inside the home, outside the home, in college, a high school girl, retired, empty nester. None of those things ultimately defined her identity. But she knows her identity is found and it's unchanging in being a daughter of God, of the most high King, and that she is loved fully by Him, regardless of whether she's been abused, whether she's been greatly loved here on this earth by a man, by a family. She is greatly loved.

By her creator, and she can firmly plant her identity in that. And then, from that place of knowing all of those beautiful truths about God's plan and love and redemptive story for her through the cross, then she can step into: okay, what does it look like to actually live this out? Being a woman who's defined by these beautiful truths from God's word. And we can see that in Proverbs 31: these beautiful characteristics of a woman who loves her family, who values her family, who respects her husband. You can see her priorities.

She's a hardworking woman, but she works hard for the good of her family, not to get a great name for herself, not to look accomplished in the world's eyes, not just to make money. She works hard. For the good of her family. And we see that in Proverbs 31. And then we can jump over to Titus 2 and see this beautiful list of these character qualities, these attributes, essentially, that women are called to walk in.

And we see, you know, I recommend all women and men listening to go check out Titus 2 and you can see what older women are called to teach younger women. And the emphasis in this passage is so much centered on the home that just like women today struggle with valuing the home, finding worth in God's design for the family and seeing that as a valuable pursuit and calling, and dare I even say career to be a full-time homemaker, we see in Titus 2 this beautiful layout of the woman values her children, her husband, she's a keeper of the home. We see this call for older women to teach younger women to value these things.

So right there, and then I'm not even going to get into Genesis one and two. I mean, we can, but there's just God's creation of how He created Adam first and then Eve second and the roles that He gave Adam before. Before Eve ever even entered the scene, we see beautiful distinctions between the man and the woman and roles laid right out there in Genesis, which we fully unpack in Made to Be She. But that was a long answer. That was a good question.

So impressed with your answer. And I'm also thinking: as a mom, if you have a daughter, That's discipleship, teaching her those truths. Like that's what every little girl needs to hear. I even say it to our grandkids. All of them, like all seven, I'll say, I'm so glad that God made you to be a boy.

And that's so good that you're affirming that. I'm looking at your title, Made to be she. Yes, He made you. And then I'll say, For a reason. Exactly.

He purposely made you like that. And so, what you just described, which was, wasn't that well done? Yeah, I mean, it's excellent. And in my head, I'm hearing women push back. I'm the devil's advocate over here.

Yeah, when they push back against that, which you've heard all, you get emails. You guys talk about this. You know, they're growing up in you start the book with this whole mindset of the world saying this and this and this, and they're thinking, Yeah, but that was written to women you know in the Bible times who were Subversive. They didn't have a voice. And so, of course, there are roles in the home.

It's a different world today.

So that's one option, but it isn't the only option. How do you speak? And these aren't just. Women are in the church. These are women in our churches saying, I've grown up in a different day, and God's given me power.

You're telling me to. Surrender that power to my man? Again, I'm playing devil's avatar. No, those are good questions. And I would say, no, you're not surrendering your power to your man.

He's a sinner just like you. You are surrendering to God, ultimately. And you are entrusting your design as a woman. You are acknowledging, God, you are God, and I am not. Your ways are better than my ways.

What I can see is only a glimpse of your ultimate plan. And in fact, my life as a Christian isn't about my own glory and my own, even my own happiness, right? But ultimately, about making your name great. And if your path for me includes hardship, Even suffering, even letting go of some of my dreams to pursue what I know you're calling me to, what is faithful in this season of my life, then God, I'm willing to lay those dreams down at the altar and say, Lord, I give these back as an offering and a gift to you. I trust you with your plan.

I know that you have my good in mind, which doesn't mean easy, but means my good for making me more like Christ, for sanctifying me, for growing me. Marriage will do that for you. Having children will do that for you. We are, as Christians, we are called to lay down our life in so many ways, which just means we're sacrificing, we are letting go. We are, I love to use this visual of just open palms facing upward.

Women just say, open your hands and say, Lord, what is your will and plan for me? Your will be done, not mine. The words of Jesus, right before he went to the cross, where I think of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and her beautiful words back to the angel, where she said, Let it be done to me according to your will. And I think we have lost that the feminist movement has reached. Really push this mindset of pride and autonomy in a way that says, I don't need anyone.

I don't even need God. I can figure this out for myself. I am all that I need. And why is it not the Christian's way? It's from protection.

Like I used to say those exact words. And why? It's to protect myself. Yeah. Yeah.

Because, like, I don't want to depend on anybody else because they'll let me down. And if they let me down, if they back up, it's probably because I'm unworthy. Right. And so it's a protective show, what you're saying. Yeah.

And we have to acknowledge that. I think it's good to acknowledge why am I responding in this way? You know, one of the questions we ask in May DBC is, where has your view of womanhood come from? What has shaped it over the years? And I can look back on my life.

I can see some beautiful ways that my view of womanhood was shaped by my mom, who's a very godly woman.

So grateful for her and the influence in my life. Church shaped in some wonderful, beautiful ways. And then also some other. Extracurricular, extra, I don't know, biblical ideas that were not necessarily rooted in God's word that were okay. Let's hit some of those things because we've gone through this side of the culture, the true world.

Now let's hear this other side of. Maybe the hurts of the church. Yeah, which we have the ditch of feminist womanhood we unpack. And then now we're going to unpack the ditch of Christian womanhood, essentially. But one of the lies, I'll just speak real personally.

So, growing up, conservative family, so grateful for my parents' discipleship in so many ways. But there were some very strong Christian movements that were taking place during my time. Purity culture, as it's been coined. I'm not all about that name because I still believe, as the Bible teaches, that purity matters. And I don't think it's a word we necessarily have to throw out because of how it's been used.

We see it used in God's word.

So we can trust him in his plan for purity as being a good thing. But I think there were some messages in purity culture that, whether I don't believe it was intentional, but I believe the emphasis was really rebounding from, you know, the hippie culture, free love, you know, sex all around. I mean, after the introduction of the birth control pill, specifically abortion became legal, women were really of this mindset of, well, now the playing field is equal sexually because I can do whatever I want. And with, you know, abortion and birth control pill in my hip pocket, there are no repercussions anymore. I can have sex on demand like men can, and there are no more consequences.

So that was another movement of the feminist era, just kind of shaping women in these ways.

So the purity movement, I think, was coming off of a lot of that, rightfully so, saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Actually, no, purity. Matters and saving sex for marriage is actually a biblical thing. We need to slow down, people. We need to think about this.

But I think what happened is it became so emphasized, as these movements often do, as you respond to something, you tend to go really strong in the other direction. And so, the era that I grew up in very much was the purity rings. And I think there can still be a place for those, but I think what happened with a lot of women. And I even see in my own heart was this idea that to be a good, godly Christian woman, I needed to have a certain set of standards that were, yes, from God's word, but also a lot of extra details added on.

So, for example, I did wear a purity ring when I was in high school. I had committed to saving sex for marriage and I was like, I want to go the extra mile. I'm not even going to kiss anyone until I get married, which I'm still very thankful for. I did not, I didn't kiss anyone until my husband on our wedding day. And I, I cherish that.

It's beautiful, but my heart wasn't always in a great place.

So, as a Christian woman, I remember in some ways, even taking pride in my purity and thinking, wow, I am, what an example I am. You know, look at me living this pure life while at the same time, wrestling with inner struggles of lust and sexual thoughts and not feeling like I can be honest about those because I've got my purity ring. I'm supposed to be this pure example. There are young women, I have younger sisters, they're looking up to me.

So being honest about my struggles was very hard. And that became true for so many women of the purity era of my generation who had their purity rings, they looked the part on the outside. And in many ways, they were walking this fine line of standards, but inwardly were really struggling and outwardly were even prideful in their purity. And that's not God's heart for women. His heart is not that we would become Pharisaical by doing the right things with a heart that is very self-focused.

There's little of God, would you be glorified? Help me to pursue you in this. Give me humility. Give me grace. Lord, I need you.

It was more of like, you got to do this, pull your boots up, you know, and make it happen, which is interesting. I'm hearing a little bit of the feminist movement, right? It's like the feminists had the same idea of like, girl, you got to make it happen for yourself. And in some ways, even in Christian culture, that mindset was happening, but from a spiritualized standpoint.

So we thought we are so godly when really. We were just trying to make this godliness happen for ourselves without relying on Christ.

So that's one of the ditches that I know I for sure fell into. I know a lot of women did. And there was later on in life when the Lord graciously opened my eyes to see that. there was a lot of repenting in my own heart of recognizing. And I have since talked very openly and honestly about purity.

And when we talk about it, even in this book at Girl Defined, we say it is from a heart that longs to glorify God and longs to walk in his ways, not just an outward action to do the right thing, but coming from a heart that's seeking the Lord. Do you think that parents? Like your parents, and Dave and I, we raised our kids under the purity culture, kind of that was the time. Do you think there's any place for us as parents to apologize to our kids for maybe pushing that? on them In a negative kind of way, because it was negative, and there were some great things about it, as you said.

But you know, the focus became the wrong focus, right? And I don't know if that was true for everybody. Right. I'm sure it was. I think each set of parents, what I and conversations I've had with my mom, um, specifically, I've expressed gratitude.

Like, I am thankful for a lot of the ways that you raised us to give us a foundation of understanding these things. For even raising the bar, right? Right. Yeah. To say, no, there's a better way.

God has a better plan. I think that we are each responsible for our own selves. And I've, I even told my mom this: I said, you didn't necessarily push me toward pride. I did that in my own heart. I was the one who was like, oh, I am.

Pure. I am godly. Oh, I am a great example. Wow. Look at all these young women looking up to me.

Oh, I'm such a great leader, you know, like you didn't instill that in me. That was my own sinful flesh.

So I think we have to recognize, even as parents who are like, oh, asking that question, we all have sin. It's not just one-sided.

So I would say having a conversation for any parents listening thinking, hmm, I wonder how my kids are thinking about that. Have a conversation. Just say, hey, you know, we've been thinking about this a lot. And we realized that although purity is a good and biblical thing, that there may have been such an emphasis that you felt like that was your primary identity. How did it affect you?

Right. Asking questions and just opening up the conversation, I think that could be very valuable because I know there are sadly. A lot of movements even happening now, right? Of deconstruction, of a lot of young people leaving the faith altogether because they just felt like things were shoved down their throat and they were forced to live a certain way, dress a certain way, whatever it may be for them. And so they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and they're just cutting off their parents altogether.

And I think that's tragic. I think so many parents were well-intentioned. They were embracing, they were also rebounding, right? Coming off of that era of the 70s, 80s, and they wanted good for their children. And so I would just encourage children and parents, have grace toward one another, have an open conversation and just recognize like, In our hearts, we wanted to do the right thing.

Sure, we may have gone off trail a little bit, but let's have a conversation about it. That's good. Yeah, I wonder, you know, even you know, thinking of the purity movement from a man's side and a woman's side, I don't know how it hit us as men different than women, but you know, you look back now and you think, isn't it interesting that The focus was Primarily, if not exclusively, on sex. Right. And Kissing in anything in that area, there was no thought of purity with your language, with your thoughts, with your way you treated people.

This one area that we highlighted, and I don't. I don't know how it affected women, but it affected us as men. Thinking, I can't even look at a woman, I can't appreciate anything about her. I'm supposed to. Basically walk around with a blinder.

Blinders on. Yeah. And some of that's good, especially if you're a married man. Yeah, you don't look at women, but You know what I'm saying? I haven't thought about that.

Yeah, it's a different world. Yeah, and I we've actually talked to some men who have felt that way, who felt like They, as men, in their, you know, we have to remember that sexuality, that our sexual design is God-given. When He made us to be she, He made Him to be He. That included our sexual design. That wasn't Hollywood's idea.

That was, you know, that came from the Lord. And it's a good and beautiful thing to have this sexual attraction, to have men and women in their masculine, you know, beauty and feminine beauty. Like, that's God's design. It's beautiful. But there, there were men that we talked to who said, I was just this idea of purity.

Don't look at a woman. You don't look at any woman ever. Don't lust, you know, guard your eyes. You see something bounce. And it was so emphasized to the point that they didn't even know how to interact with women in a respectful, just God-honoring way.

They didn't even know how to do that because they were so fearful, almost paranoid, afraid, yes, of stumbling in some way that it crippled them to know how to have healthy, God-honoring interactions. And so I think it can go too far. Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. I remember when I kissed dating goodbye came out, I had this. reaction I didn't say it from the pulpit.

I was pastoring then, but I remember thinking it with my boys. It's like, I wanted to write a book called I Kiss Dating Hello. Yeah. I wasn't going to write that and come out with it right on the heels. Yeah, I was like, it wasn't that I think dating is biblical, or I just thought if you never.

ever have dinner with a girl as a young man. You don't know how to interact. You don't know how to have a conversation. It's like there's some good things that happen. You can stay pure.

You can have a great friendship and learn how to have conversations and date and how to treat a woman. And if you've never done that, it's like, wow, you're putting a lot of stake on this better bee. You meet them and they better be the one and now you're first kissed at the ultimate. Again, that's what it was my perspective. And it was, nobody was saying that.

It was like, oh, no, you should, you know, you're supposed to, you're not date. And you. What was the word they used? You didn't date. Courtship.

Courtship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which my husband and I, we would have said we were courting, you know, and it's an old-fashioned word, which I think is kind of super. I think there's some good things.

I think the idea of intentionally dating, this is a whole nother conversation, but dating with purpose, right? Dating with intentionality really matters. As Christians, we should be intentional in everything we do for God's glory, for the good of the other, right? Considering the other as we're dating. But yes.

100% agree with you there, Dave. And in fact, our sons, now we have a 15-year-old. Yeah. He's not really talking about dating, but of course, crushes. And he's very open.

And it's, you know, oh, mom, I've got this new crush. I'm like, okay, tell me about her. You know, we'll have conversations and I think it's sweet. But I'm always like just looking for little angles to try to disciple his heart or steer his heart. And I say, you know, God made attraction a beautiful thing.

The fact that you're attracted to her is God's design. You know, she's a beautiful woman. He, God made her beautiful. He made you handsome. Those are good things, but the timing isn't right now for you guys to do anything serious.

You know, what God's good plan for you right now would be that you just have a friendship. That you talk to her, that you just engage in conversation, you have fun in groups and learn how to be a good friend. That is where your focus should be now. And he's like, Oh, yeah, well, I talked to her. You know, he's so excited if he says one thing.

But I think, you know, that is what I think a lot of young people in the purity era missed: it's okay to recognize I'm attracted. It's okay to acknowledge I have a sexual design. It's actually, we need to disciple if we're not as the church, as Christian families discipling that, where are they going to get it from? Right. You know, where are they, where's it going to come from?

It's going to come from the world and it's not going to be built in God's truths, you know, built on His Word.

So, even at a young age, even my 11-year-old is, of course, copying Big Brother and like, oh, well, I have a crush too.

Well, I think my first crush was at like nine.

So, yeah, I can relate. But just even at young, the young age, kind of shaping their hearts, calling out the good of that attraction, but then reminding them it's not the right time. What can we do though? We can be friends, we can interact, you know. And I think it starts at a young age.

Let's hit some more ditches. Ooh, let's hit them. Hit, we hit the. The purity culture ditch of the other side. What else?

Ooh, okay, purity culture. That was a big one. I mean, the purity culture, I guess, the saving sex for marriage. I think there was another ditch that I definitely fell into, and it's the ditch of. Christian conservative movements, I want to be careful how I say this, but really elevating the role of being a wife and a mom.

So high that for many Christian women, it became the only option, the only calling that they could have.

Now, I obviously firmly believe that motherhood and marriage is a beautiful woman. And a beautiful calling, right? But what happens to the woman who is 30? Single. and isn't sure if she's ever going to get married.

Where does her identity come from? Where does her purpose come from? Right. And that's what was happening in my generation. There were so many women who weren't getting married when they thought.

And they were suddenly having a lot of money. And there are still many women in that place. You know, their 30s, their 40s, and they're going, I'm about to not be able to have kids. I'm not even married. This is not at all what I thought how my life would turn out.

But I was told that being a mom and a wife is the most. Amazing, beautiful calling that a woman could ever have.

So, if I'm not going to have that, am I less than? Am I not a complete woman? Am I not a whole woman? And that is something that I had to wrestle with on a very personal level, not on the marriage front. I got married at 24.

I am from a big family, eight kids. And I just thought, oh, you know, my mom had multiple home births. She was like, we called her the birthing pro. Like, this lady can just make it happen. No epidurals, all natural.

Like, she really was like a professional birther. But I thought, I'm going to have it easy. Like, I come from a big family, no problem. Year one and two, I have two miscarriages and no kids to show for it. Three, four, five, six, that all the way up to 10 years of infertility, another miscarriage around year eight.

Doctors couldn't figure out what the problem was, no answers. And I'm, I'm sitting there like, this was my plan. I was going to get married. I married the man of my dreams. We were going to have a family.

I wanted to have a big family. And now I've been married for a decade and I don't have any kids. Who am I? And this wasn't just at 10 years. This was a wrestle I had throughout the entire process of really going to God's word, crying out.

Yes, holding this desire for motherhood, this good and beautiful gift we see in scripture, but holding it up and saying, God, is this not what you have for me? You call this a good thing. Why aren't you giving me this? And having to surrender that and then to say, who am I as a woman, a married woman without kids? What is my identity?

Was like an identity crisis for me. And I had to go to God's word. And those things that I shared earlier about, I am first and foremost a child of God. I am a sinner redeemed by the grace of my Savior. My calling in life is to glorify my creator and reflect him, whether I ever have kids or not.

And that calling is not going to change. Even if I have kids, that's still my primary calling. And so I had to go through a lot of dark, hard valleys of God, working on my heart, changing my heart, uprooting that lie that motherhood was the only most beautiful calling that a woman could have. Really coming to a place of surrender and then learning to pour out. How can I disciple young women?

How can I pour into young women who aren't my children, but they're women God has brought into my life? And so that became my focus. That's part of what started Girl Defined was this desire to pour into young women. Would Girl Defined even have begun had you had kids right now? I don't think so.

I really don't think so because we founded it right around the time I got married, right? Probably shortly after.

So, if I had had kids, I think that would have been my focus. Yeah. It's a wonderful, beautiful focus. It would have taken up most of my time. And I don't think Girl to Fine would have happened.

So, hindsight, of course, I'm like, I see God's hand in this. I see His hand in Girl to find. My sister, she has her own journey, didn't get married till 30. Same thing, wrestling with this identity crisis of, I've been told my whole life that marriage and motherhood are the most beautiful calling, but now I'm not even married. I might never get married.

Who am I? You know, so that is another ditch that I think women. When you elevate even a biblical thing, even purity, even marriage, motherhood, too high, On an altar to where it becomes an idol, that's where you're going wrong. You're taking a good gift and you're turning it into the thing that you almost worship, the thing you have to have in order to be full, to be whole. And that's what God never intended for those things to be our all, to be our identity.

But if he calls you into a season of marriage or motherhood and you enter that, then you say, Okay, now I'm in this season. What does it look like to be faithful in this now? Man, I'm just thinking about that, thinking, like, even after you do get married. It's easy to make your marriage an idol, thinking my husband should make me happy. Oh.

And even when you do have kids, that's probably those two things are two of my greatest temptations to become idols. Because you love your kids so much. You don't want them to experience pain. You can elevate them to the point that they come before God, too. I remember saying to the Detroit Lions wives, who I discipled for years.

What is if you had to give Jesus everything and you're surrendering everything to him, there's nothing you're holding back. What is the thing that's the last thing in your hands that you don't want to surrender to them to him? And they said, our kids, my kids. And I said, why don't you want to surrender your kids? And they said, because he might allow something bad to happen.

So I felt that. Yeah. And even then, like. What does that say about God? And we don't know, but it's true.

Those things are really hard to surrender.

Well, one thing that encouraged me so much in that was I had seen a quote from another author, and she said, The things that we long for most are the very things that God wants to use to draw us closer to Him. And that is so true, is it not? In any season of life, that thing where you're like, if I could just have this. That's the tension point. That is the place in your heart you can go immediately and say.

Am I seeking the Lord fully, or am I relying on getting this thing in order? To make me happy, to be my satisfaction. And for me, It was absolutely having kids for so many years. And in fact, my sister Bethany, who's not with us here today, who wrote to Made to Be She with me, she asked me a very pointed question, and I'm grateful for this. It's a question I think only a sister could ask a sister in the midst of my infertility, in the midst of my struggle, very graciously.

And she and I had had so many conversations over the years about this and her wanting to get married and me wanting kids. She just said, If God never gives you kids. Do you think he could be enough for you? And it was like. Oh I gave her the very Christian answer, of course.

I just said, of course he's enough. Absolutely. He's my all in all, you know? And I went away, really, that question stuck with me. And I was laying in bed that night thinking, If God if you never give me kids Are you enough?

And I had to get really honest with myself, you know, two in the morning, laying there in the dark. And my true answer was, He wasn't enough for me in that place that I was at. He wasn't. I really had fallen into the ditch of believing I had to have kids to be happy, to be a complete woman, to have a satisfied life. And that for me was the turning point where God really uprooted idolatry in my heart of a good thing, but still idolatry and helped me see that ultimately.

He could be. He could be my all-in-all. He could be. Do you feel like that? Is such a good question.

I feel like every listener, and we should even talk about that. What is the one thing that you think, if I could just have this?

Well, here's what I was thinking when you said that: is. I think it's going to be different for men and women. Totally. Of course, it's different. I want to know what yours is.

But I think a lot of men would say success.

Okay. Career success, money success, reputation success, whatever. It's like I'm driving toward this. If I never get it, financial success. I wonder if a lot of women would say relationship.

Yeah. Whether it's your kids or your. We've talked about this many times. If your marriage is never going to be satisfying for you as a woman, Is Jesus enough? Like you're laying there at 2 a.m.

and it isn't the kids. It's, I love my kids, they're great. I don't like this man. Yeah. I thought I would.

He doesn't love me like I thought I would be loved. And I'm never really going to get loved. Like, I don't think this man is. Is Jesus enough? Am I going to be okay?

It's hard. It's a heart question that pierces the depths of our souls. I mean, it is. You know what mine is? Because it's such a great question and it's very convicting.

And I'm rolling it around in my head right now. Mine would be like, my greatest desire now is that my kids and my grandkids would all walk with Jesus and love him with their whole hearts, which is this great It's a great like dream aspiration or prayer. It's really a prayer. But what I can do as a mom, and when the kids were in the house, I can become controlling, making them be spiritual or making them memorize their verses, or pushing it so much. Then, when they became adults, it's that desire to continue to control that area, which I have no power in that.

So, that it's this really good dream. Of what I'd like, and it's a prayer that I pray continually, but it can also become an idol that I can become controlling instead of surrendering to the Father. I love how you mentioned prayer because I think that is the antidote. Yes. When we are in that place at 2 a.m.

and we're wrestling, we're struggling with this thing that isn't happening that we. Fill in the blank for whoever's listening. This is the thing I must have in order to be happy. We can take that and say, Lord, you are a good father. You are good, and you do good, as the Psalms say.

Do I actually believe that about you? And if I do, then I can trust you. Because a good father is trustworthy. I can trust your timing for my life. I can trust your plan for my life.

I can trust that you are withholding this thing for a greater reason that I can't see, but I know you're going to work through it if I seek you and pursue you. And ultimately, Lord, I know that without this, you are enough. You can be enough. Lord, help me to pursue you in a way that is more wholehearted. Help me to lay down this desire in this unhelpful, this unholy way, really.

If it's idolatry, it is an unholy desire. Lord, help me to surrender that. And it's taking it to the Lord in prayer again and again and again. It's not a one and done. I wish it was.

But it is again and again and again. And slowly but surely, as we place our trust in him, that good, good father, he does a work in our hearts. When we seek him in that way, he wants to meet us there. And he met me there. And I am telling you, I would have never said when I got married.

If I had never had kids that I could be happy, I would have said, no way. There is no way. That I could ever be happy and not have kids. And God brought me to a place before we adopted our boys and had our baby girl while I still had no idea. Wait, go back because our listeners don't know.

You had a baby girl. We did.

So we adopted two boys around right after 10 years of marriage.

So we had been saving money for a big 10-year anniversary trip. And God totally redirected our paths and gave us this huge heart for adoption from international adoption, two older kids, two older boys who were siblings. We used all of the money for our 10-year anniversary tournament. We're siblings, yes, brothers. And so God gave me.

He gave me that prayer, that dream, that cry of my heart for so many years. He has now filled my house with children, two amazing boys. And then, yes, got pregnant with our baby girl two years later.

So now we've got a 15-year-old, 11-year-old, and a one-year-old. And I love it. I love it so much. Wait, I just have to know this personally.

So. Tell me about when you realized you were pregnant.

Okay, so full disclosure: we were pursuing some fertility treatments. It wasn't just completely out of the blue, right? But I'm in my late 30s, and we thought, you know, we would love to have more kids. And the sweetest thing ever, our two adopted sons kept asking me when I was going to have a baby.

Now, they're adopted from Ukraine, so they could only speak Russian when they moved in with us, and we couldn't speak Russian.

So we were using Google Translate back and forth. About six months in, they could speak some English, and they said, Mama, when are you going to have a baby?

Well, you know, all my sisters are having babies, all they're all of our friends. And so they're like, when are you? And I said, You know, it's like, oh, how do I answer this? They don't really understand, they don't know our story yet. And I just said, you know, if God wants to give us a baby, he can.

And I said, you can pray for that if you want. And they said, okay. They prayed every night before bed that God would give me a baby, that he would give our family a baby. And I'm in tears like every night prayer. I'm like, Lord, this is too much.

I thought I was done with this. I was surrendered. And now you don't want them to be disappointed. And now I even said to my husband, I said, Lord, if not for me, for them, give us a baby for them. And they would pray every night.

And so that was probably part of what influenced us. We're like, you know, we're, I'm getting older. Let's just try. We'll try some fertility treatments if they work. Hallelujah.

Praise the Lord. If not. This is our family, and we're so thankful and grateful. And sure enough, God allowed them to work. I got pregnant with our baby girl, and we told them at Christmas time, I was just about 12 weeks, and they opened a little onesie that said coming soon.

And they both just fell over with joy, like laying on the floor, laughing, and like, that's a And they were so excited. And now they just adore her. They just carry her around and play with her and love her so much.

So after how many years? It was 10 years before we adopted our boys and then. 12 years, 13 years before I had my daughter.

So a lot of surrender, a lot of learning. Learning that God is enough, even without giving me all the things I wanted as a woman, beautiful gifts. Effeminity, bearing children, all of that. But in the end, God was so gracious and so kind. And I just give Him all the praise for that.

It's amazing. That's beautiful. I mean, one of the, you know, one of the things that you mention in. in the book is Uh attributes of a man. Man and woman.

Manhood, womanhood. One of them that I even said to Ann last night about womanhood, I was like, oh, that's an interesting one.

Softness. Yeah. Cause even when we were talking a second ago about control. In making things happen, and there's part of a you know, part of a man and a woman that's like, make things happen, go for it, God wants you to initiate it, get her done. And then, when I read softness, I'm like, oh, that feels like no control.

And Anne right away goes, oh no, that's a great attribute of women. And I'm like, so let me list the six that you and anything you want. You talk about femininity, ability to produce life. These are all attributes of womanhood.

Softness, responsiveness toward godly leadership, relational connection, helping the man glorify God.

So these attributes, there's six attributes of manhood and six attributes of womanhood we unpack. And we go straight to Genesis. We were like, what does God actually reveal through Adam, through Eve, in his order of creation and how he brought about the man and all of the details there as you zoom in, right? Genesis one is like. The flyover, and then you get to Genesis 2, and it's like zooming in on this picture and unpacking the details of how God created Adam and Eve and that whole process.

So, we did not make these up, these were attributes we saw in scripture in Genesis 1 and 2, and we're just highlighting them. I find them fascinating because I think a lot of Christian women are like, Well, does God really have a lot to say about what it means to be a man and a woman?

Well, Genesis one and two, you know, most people want to read the whole Bible, you don't get too far. Most have read Genesis one and two a million times, and we miss it because it's easy to gloss over. We're like, That's familiar, but you zoom into the details and you see these attributes that God is pulling out in Adam and creating him first and giving him order, giving him leadership over creation, giving him a job to name all of the animals. Give he actually created Adam outside of the garden, it says, and then it says he brought him into the garden.

So, it was almost like he was bringing Adam into the place that would then be his home for his new family, and Adam. is doing all of this. Before Eve even enters the scene, God gives Adam the instructions for the garden. You know, there's a tree, don't eat of it. Here's what you can do.

All of those instructions happen before Eve even exists. Very interesting.

So we see God doing something here. He's preparing the man to be a leader for his family, to be the head of his family, to take care of his family. He gives him the instructions. He's equipping Adam. He even gives him practice, working, you know, naming all the animals.

Then we see that God takes, and y'all know the story by heart. Most people do, but it's just so beautiful when you really ponder it. God taking the rib from Adam, creating the woman in the garden, by the way. She's made inside the home that she'll live in with her husband and her family. And then we see this beautiful counterpart to Adam.

She is different in her makeup, in her biology. Adam is, you know, this man with this testosterone surging through his body, different in his biological function. And then we see this woman who is also strong, but has this softness to her. Curves, this femininity. She's surging with estrogen, which each of these hormones drive the man and the woman in very different ways.

Eve is made with a womb? A uterus, she has the capacity to conceive, to bear children, to bring forth new life, and to nurture that life with her own body through breastfeeding. And you just see these distinctions and go, There is nothing random about this. God is intentionally laying out this beautiful picture of manhood and womanhood right here. And so the softness that we talk about, which a lot of women, we even say, don't throw this book across the room when you hear this word because you're not going to like it.

But what it's getting at is this, a woman is strong in her resolve to follow God. She is strong for her family, strong in the ways that serve others, that bless others, that lead her family in the way she is called to nurture her children and lead them. But there's this internal softness, this softness of spirit, this gentle and quiet spirit doesn't mean that she's a mouse, that she can't speak, that she has no opinions. It doesn't mean she's quiet. No, it doesn't mean her volume.

I have a very loud voice and my husband in restaurants, he does this visual cue where he pretends to turn the name. He's like, honey, honey, honey.

So it doesn't mean she's quiet in volume, but that she has this inner peace. Peace, this inner trust in the Lord for who she is. And as a result of that, there is this softness in her demeanor. In her character, in her, even it can even be in her words, where she is soft and responsive toward her husband's leadership. Where she welcomes his opinion, his input.

She might even seek it out, right? There is this softness that can only come from the Lord because Genesis 3 quickly reveals that sin entered the scene. And this beautiful design was quickly distorted with our sin and we were pit against one another, right? Battle of the sexes, it started in Genesis 3, where the woman would have this sinful desire to rule over and dominate her husband. And so that softness would not be there naturally.

And so this inclination to be responsive is something we see in Eve, God giving her to her husband and saying to Adam, here is your woman. She shall be called Eve. And then we see later in Ephesians that that beautiful role of being a helpmate, of coming alongside the man in that beautiful partnership, not as a less than partner, but an equally valuable partner, just with a different role. And so that softness is actually a beautiful quality that God wants to cultivate in women, that we would have that peaceful, gentle response. And that does not come naturally to me.

So that is the work that God continues to do in my heart to create a softness in my heart toward my husband and my children. What do you think of that, Dave? Oh, I think it's beautiful. He's like, more of that, please. Yeah, I mean, that is the tension in the sin nature.

of Genesis 3 and beyond. You know, your desire will be for your husband, but he will rule over you. There's this. Fight. Um, that's everlasting, you know, until until the Until we're standing before him in glory, that'll be attention in every relationship, especially in marriage.

But Yeah, I mean, when I read softness, I'm like, she is not soft. You know, but she is the way you just defined it. Yeah, you have a tender heart toward God and toward me. And it's a beautiful thing.

So that's the right word. It's taken time, though, too, because I think because of the culture that I was raised in. In fact, I told Dave as I was reading your book, because you have a A chapter called The Cosmo Girl. Yes. Seduced by the Cosmo Girl.

Yes. And I remember, I told Dave, I said, I can remember being 12 years old. I can remember where I was in Florida with my grandparents and my mom on vacation. And there was a Cosmo magazine in this bookstore and I bought it. And I read that thing cover to cover nineteen seventy two.

Wow. And that shaped me. There's this part of me that's like, I'm going to be strong. I'm going to have my own sexual. I didn't grow up in the church at all.

So, women being strong, dominant, independent, and sexual. All those things set me on this path for that. And so As I got into marriage as a new believer, not understanding the word? But also wanting to protect myself and not lose that independence. I don't think I wanted to be soft at all.

Like that seems weak. Because to me, softness is equated with weakness. Yes. And that is so much of what the feminist movement equates to strong women. To be strong, you must never, never, ever give into anything.

Exactly. Never, you know, lay down your opinion for someone else's. Never sacrifice. Never. That is weakness.

Especially your husband. Yeah. Oh, especially your husband. And so it took, it's taken me years. To embrace the softness.

And even now, I'm getting older. Like, I just had Dave open my water bottle. I would have never done that. In my younger years because I'm strong. That's 'cause she fell out of the bed on her vacation.

It hit her thumb. Uh, she didn't see a step. She's stepping out of the bed. I was I was a step and she thinks in a lounger bed. No.

Not in bed.

So that she's not weak that way. She just can't use her thumb anymore. I'm like, maybe we should go to a doctor. Oh, no, I'm not going to a doctor. I don't have time to go to a doctor.

I don't have time to go. Right? Who has time to? With the doctor, but do you see that the pridefulness that I had, the arrogance that I will be strong, I'll be as strong as you.

Now, like, you're so much stronger than me, you're so capable. I love your opinion. My pride and arrogance didn't allow me to really go into those places, and it's embarrassing to say that as a woman. Yes, and last thought in my mind, when we're back in Genesis 1, 2, and 3, is think about this. And I know it's not a new thought, but when did Satan, the snake, tempt he didn't tempt Adam alone.

He didn't tempt Eve alone. He tempted them now as a couple.

So, all those things that we just talked about, this desire for power, this desire for control. of the man, of the woman. Is tempted in a relationship called marriage. And so you step into marriage thinking, oh, this is going to be awesome. It's going to be wonderful, which is.

Which it is. Yes. It is all those things. It will be so wonderful. But there will be a battle.

That is uniquely significant to the marriage relationship. I mean, it's a battle without marriage, but when you say two become one, we're going to reflect to the world the love of God, the gospel, like Christ and the church, Ephesians 5. There's an enemy who's going to say, I will not let that happen. This battle for control is going to be a part of that relationship. It's in the garden, it's going to be in every garden, in every bedroom, every family room, every kitchen.

It's going to be there every single day. And if we don't understand our unique. designed by God as husband, as wife, as man and woman. That helps when you understand that. That softness.

And a man needs to be soft too in a different way. That's tenderness.

Soft means to the will of God in my marriage and yet strong in my leadership. It's always going to be a challenge, but beautiful when done the way God wants. It reveals Him to the world. There is no way. I could ever even desire to want to embrace godly womanhood without God changing my heart.

It is, it goes against so much of my sinful and just natural personality. My leadership strengths. There is just so much where I just want to say, move over, dude. I've got this. I have to fight it all the time.

Now, there are areas my husband, like you said, he's like, babe, will you just take this on in our family? Will you be the one who plans all of our vacations and details? Because I love that kind of stuff. I feel like I'm good at it. He's not as gifted.

And so he, you know, there are things we divide and conquer in marriage. And that's wonderful and beautiful to use your strengths in ways that bless the family, but it has to be from the right heart, not a, I've got this, I'm more capable, my identity is found in me being strong, and I cannot be weak. Right. And then doing it for the good of the family and honoring God. Here's a whole other thought.

I don't want to take aside another thing because we've talked a long time. But you know, here's the other side of this from the man side. Move over, dude. I've got this. There's a passivity in us as men where we do move over and we say, All right, go ahead.

Okay, lady, take it from here. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of women will. And there's part of me who wants to say to us as men, guys, step up.

No, there are parts you shouldn't move over. You're called to lead. You're called to be the head. You're called to bring spiritual leadership into the home. You're called to be gentle and soft.

In all those ways, but you are also called not to move over and usurp your and say, Okay, I don't want to lead this family. You go ahead. And it's like, No, you lead together, but you need to lead, guys. Don't move over. Not in a bad way.

Right. No, I know what you're doing. This control thing, but I think you've done that. You've done that beautifully because I think I was so strong and domineering. That I pushed you out of the way, and you're like, all right, go ahead.

She wants it that bad? Yeah. Take it. But now you've walked in, and I feel like, especially being married to someone strong. Yeah, but there are times where we as men are passive.

But I'm saying you're not any, I don't think you are. I mean, there are times where, like, she'll pray, I'm just gonna. Go ahead. The honest confession she'll have a conversation with the grandkids about God. I'll just watch.

You know, rather than I'll step in there and be the man, be what God's called me to be. You're doing some self-talk here. Yeah, I am. I'm talking to every guy out there that's the same. It's an ongoing struggle.

I mean, for the man to step up and lead for the women. And isn't it interesting? And I know you'll relate to this. We want our husbands to be strong leaders. We want them to take initiative, to have opinions, to have direction and vision for our families.

And then yet we sabotage that without even realizing it. And when we do that, then you push back. We bulldoze the. I'm doing what you just told me to do. I'm reading right now, and you're yelling at me.

That's why I just wrote that book. I guess. How to speak life to yourself, when we hear it. I thought I just did what you wanted, but now you don't want me to do it.

Okay, so here's the book: Made to Be She: Reclaiming College. God's plan for fearless femininity. And you know what I love too, Kristen? You love those pink. I do like that.

It's kind of pinky salmon, but I love that there's a study guide after each chapter. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

So you can do it in a small group. Absolutely. In a small group, in a couple of ladies or a small group at church or even by yourself. If you're like, I do not understand God's design as much as I thought I did. I need something to dig in.

I benefit greatly from being able to reflect on what I read and process and answer questions and just think about things.

So we included it at the end of every chapter for the women, women like me who need that time to process or to do it in a group with a small group of ladies. And you may push back on some of the things and that's okay. But to have the discussion, but to go into the Bible to see what it says is really important. Absolutely. This has been fun.

Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button. Yeah, and we'd like you to subscribe.

So, all you gotta do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word. Like and subscribe.

Look at that, you say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes. Mm.