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Pick it up wherever you buy books. Jerry, great to have you back with us. And it's always a pleasure to be with you, my friend. Jerry, we're going to wrap up our series that we've been doing on the ideal economy, God's design for economics. And in just a moment, you're going to share with us the so-what. Where do we go from here as the church, the body of Christ? But as we kick it off today, just sum up where we've been.
Well, where we've been in this series is starting out with the way things are supposed to be. What is God's design? That's what Jesus did over and over again. When someone asked him a question about divorce, for instance, he'd say, well, what was the original creational intent?
Over and over again, he goes back to creation. So we should too. And the economy of Genesis 1 and 2 is the economy as it should have been. The economy as it was and should have continued to be. Now, we abandoned that.
We were offered that and we rejected it. And so you get the economy of Genesis 3 and 4, where things get worse and there's a curse. And then we make the curse worse. In other words, we could repent and kind of get back more to that original Edenic intention.
Although after the fall, you can't get perfectly there. But instead, we tend to make things worse and we rely on our own power more and we have more rivalry and envy. And we turn the state into an idol that replaces God. Then we talk about the way out, which is to go back to biblical principles and have our nations organized the way God originally intended with the creation. So that kind of brings us from where we started in this series to where we are now.
Yeah, that's really helpful by way of recap. So how would you then describe where we find ourselves today? Where we find ourselves today is in kind of the church era where God is acting through the church in the nations. And some of these nations follow biblical principles and some of them don't. And some of them followed biblical principles but then abandoned them.
And some of them didn't follow but have been moving towards them. And so providence has organized things ever since the fall of the Tower of Babel so that the powerful of this world are limited to some degree in what they can do to us. You know, when God says there's nothing these people can't do, people have kind of wondered, what do you mean there's nothing they can't do? We're not God. We can't do anything.
I think basically God is saying there's nothing they can't do to each other. If there's no place of escape, if there's just one national power, one tower, then, you know, we're vulnerable to exploitation. So by spreading out the nations, we can vote with our feet. We can vote with our capital. And we see that going on all the time now with money flowing in or out of the United States, or Europe used to be very Christian, but it's really turned away from that.
And so capital has been flowing out and that's hurt their economy. So we're in the era now where people can vote with their feet, they can vote with their capital, and God has built the universe in such a way as following his principles tends to enrich and violating his principles tends to degrade and make poorer. And that is a protection to some degree in the world where we haven't gotten back to that original intention. It kind of puts a limit on the evil of the world. Well, and we can see on full display the evidence of that when we just look at the U.S. taking off like a rocket ship because of our adherence to those principles, right? Yes, we leapt over nations that were 2000 years older than we were. We leapt over old Europe, which had, I think to my view, a more flawed understanding of Christian economics, even if it was more formally Christian, didn't have enough emphasis on personal dignity and individual freedom.
But of course, we're slowing down now. And so we might not be the fastest growing place in the world because many ways we've been violating his principles. And that's how God has made the world so that there's something inherent apart from whether God comes in and supernaturally judges. There's something inherent in violating principles or following principles that has a punishment and reward aspect to it.
Well, that's powerful. We're talking today with Jerry Boyer, our resident economist. We're talking about God's design for economics and wealth creation. When we come back, Jerry will tell us where we go from here. What is the role of the body of Christ and the church and how do we move forward and lean into God's handiwork in economics? I'm Rob West and this is Faith and Finance.
We'll be right back. Each account is insured up to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. This institution is not federally insured. What's most important to you when it comes to choosing your financial adviser, someone who's aligned with your biblical values? How about someone who will take the time to explain your options? Certified kingdom advisers are professionals who meet high standards and competence and integrity and have been trained to offer biblical financial advice.
To find a certified kingdom adviser in your area, visit FaithFi.com and click Find a CKA. Great to have you with us today on faith and finance. With us today are resident economist Jerry Boyer.
He's the author of The Maker versus The Takers. What Jesus really said about social justice and economics. Today we're concluding a multi-part series that Jerry has been sharing on God's ideal economy. As we look to the scriptures beginning in Genesis, we see God's architecture for economics and wealth creation starting with an understanding that man was created in the image of God. And we were created to be a worker, to be productive, to take God's creation and order it and improve it. And there was a virtuous cycle that God intended and of course that was disrupted by sin. But the DNA, the hard wiring is still there for God's design because we're still in his image. And yet we can get it wrong, especially when we replace God with the state.
And yet there is a path forward. And Jerry, I'd love for you just to encourage us today as we wrap up this series with where do we go from here as the body of Christ and the church? Well, I think you've really described it already. I think it's a good start, which is that the church is where this should be happening. So we had Adam and he was made in the image of God and he was supposed to do things a certain way and he failed. And Israel was kind of offered an opportunity to do it right.
And they fell short of that. And we saw that God scattered the nations in the Tower of Babel, which limited the power of the state to be God. So instead of having like one emperor who's the god of the universe, the alleged god of the universe, now we might have, you know, a hundred in that case, 70 kings who thought too much of themselves.
But you could always try to flee that king and go to another. And I think the ultimate answer to that we see in the in the day of Pentecost, we see in Jesus first. He's the new Adam. So he starts over in a new garden and where Adam was tested in the garden and failed. Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane was tested and succeeded where Adam stole from the tree the fruit. Jesus, the fruit of God, was put back on the tree and restitution was made to God.
And we got a do over. But that doesn't start with the nations. That starts with the church. The church is a nation with repeatedly referred to that way, a holy nation, for example, a priestly nation. The church is a city. It's the city of God. So whatever the nations do, you know, we pray for them to do the right thing, but we can do the right thing ourselves.
And I was struck I did was doing some research recently. Look at the account of the Tower of Babel. They went east, it said, moving east in the in the Old Testament tends to be a bad thing.
They went east and they built a tower on the plain of Shinar. Well, you go and then the languages were confused. Then what we have on the day of Pentecost is we have this list of nations.
And I looked at those nations, looked at the list, and I put it over a map and they're moving west. In other words, Babel is being undone. And instead of a confusion of language, now they're all understanding one another's language. So it's the opposite of Babel. So what's done in Babel is redone correctly in the church.
And what did they do? Well, they share with each other. It's one of the first things that happens when the Holy Spirit falls, but they also work hard. And Paul talks about that, about the about working with your hands, et cetera. So the early church picks up what the intent was supposed to be. And we're productive and we're generous. And I feel like in the church world that we're in, you've got some people who focus on the wealth and productivity, even to the point of idolatry, say with the health and wealth gospel. And you have other people who focus on the generosity, not understanding that if you don't produce and earn, there's nothing to share. Whereas I think going back to God's ideal economy has a church which is devoted to God, puts him first, is productive and then also shares, which was God's intent originally and God's intent for Israel. But now with the power of the Holy Spirit, we are able to do it.
Oh, that's really helpful, Jerry. And I think we can often be frustrated because we know we have limited impact on the national economy. And yet what we have direct control over is our own personal economy, right?
Yes. And I think that's a formula to not be frustrated, although I feel that frustration all the time because there's actually a sense of agency. I can't really move the nation. I mean, I've been in touch with various White Houses over the years and I've never really been able to convince them to do much of anything. I mean, maybe here or there, I nudge them in the right direction. But in my own household, in a local church, you can actually have a lot of agency. So the choice is you can fret about the nations and not have much impact, or you can act the right way on a small scale, creating a model that then the nations can imitate if they choose to do so. And I think that's actually less frustrating because you can actually make something better and you can see it.
It doesn't matter if it's small. What matters is, is it right? God can take care of the nations. He raises them up and he pulls them down. That's always been his level. That's his pay grade. Our pay grade is simply to be the kind of nation, meaning the church, the holy nation, the priestly nation, to be the kind of nation that he's commanded us to be.
Wow, that's powerful, Jerry. As we think about where our nation goes from here, what is it going to take for us to get back in line with God's design? We weren't perfect, but we were certainly much closer when the founding fathers started the United States. Yeah, I think a couple of things.
One we've talked about, which is they need a model, right? And the church should be that model. We should be better at handling money than the world is. Are we? In general, I would say no, but that's what you're doing every day.
You're plugging away, helping people who want to be diligent, be better at handling money than the world is. So we should be better at it. Secondly, we should be prophetic. We shouldn't just do the right thing. We should also say to the nation, inflation is not just an economic problem. It's not just a math problem. It is an abomination.
That's what God says in the Torah, that unjust weights and measures are an abomination. So we should prophetically confront. And at that point, we can vote, etc.
But most of the power is in being a good example and preaching the truth and praying for God to do what God's going to do. I don't know what's going to happen to America. I know what I want to happen. I know I want us to be restored. Not even just to our former glory, because if everything was right, we wouldn't have gone so wrong. For instance, there were millions of slaves when we were founded.
That's terrible to go to something better. But it's not going to do it on its own. Historically, what that means is you have to have a prophetic voice and you also have to have judgment. So when is a nation too far gone? Well, I like to look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. You know, what is you know, what did Abraham say?
He kind of dickered with God. You know, what will you will you spare if there's this many? Finally, he comes down to 10. Will you spare the nation if there's 10 righteous? And God said he would.
Why? 10 is a minion in Jewish tradition. 10 is a synagogue. If there's 10, there is an organized voice that might be small in a you know, we don't know how many lived in Sodom and Gomorrah, but maybe 10, 20,000. But 10 people speaking the truth to a nation that is being chastised by God that in that situation, the nation is still salvageable. I don't worry about America because of everything that's wrong with America. I worry about America if we don't have a prophetic voice, that minion, that 10. That's when we're doomed.
I don't think that's where we are, but I do think we need to raise our voice more clearly. Wow. Well, from your mouth to God's ears, Jerry, let's hope and pray that at some point our elected leaders begin to understand this and that we embrace our role as the church, the body of Christ, to handle God's money in a way that he designed it to be handled, not as an end, but as a means to an end to accomplish his purposes. Jerry, so thankful for you, my friend. We appreciate you being with us today. And for you. God bless.
All right. That's Jerry Boyer, our resident economist. He's president of Boyer Research. You can read his insightful columns for World News Group at WNG.org. Back with your questions just after this.
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This is Faith and Finance. I'm Rob West. We're taking your calls today. 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000.
To Alaska. Hi, Eric. Thanks for calling.
Go ahead. I'm 33. My wife is 35. So we're both starting kind of new jobs. She's going to the hospital and we're getting ready to start with our kind of make start a, you know, retirement for us. So my job is doing a simple IRA or whatever I put in there, they'll match it. Her job, she already has a Roth from her old state job, but the one she's going through says they don't have the same thing. So she's wondering if sticking with the IRA or is it best for her to go out of her Roth and just she wants to put it. I believe the company is called up Maryland M-E-R-I-O-Y-N and invest like the investors rather than where she's at. And we're just kind of not sure.
Yeah. Well, here's the goal. I think is if you start with saying, OK, how much do we want to put away toward retirement? What is your age?
You and your wife, roughly. I'm 33. She's 35. Great.
Great. So you've got, let's say, 30 years between now and retirement. So you're still you're still young. And the goal would be for you all to put 10 to 15 percent of your pay into a retirement account. Why a retirement account? Well, whether it's a SAP or an IRA or a 401K, all of all of those are basically the same unless you have the Roth version where you get a tax deduction when the money goes in and then you invest it. And then it grows tax deferred, meaning think of the IRA or the 401K as an umbrella over the account.
The taxes are the rain and they fall off the side. So as your investments are growing, they're not there's no drag by the taxes that are being paid. You get the full amount of the investment return and then that continues to happen until retirement. And then as you pull it out, then you pay tax on it as income. But during that season of life, ideally you wouldn't have other income or maybe you do, but this is a supplement.
So it's OK to pay tax on it then. So if your goal is 10 to 15 percent, then you say, OK, which is the best retirement vehicle for me to take advantage of? Well, with a SEP IRA, you can put in fifteen thousand five hundred this year. With a Roth, you can only put in up to sixty five hundred. With a 401K, you can put in twenty two thousand five hundred. So a lot of times I say, let's start with any accounts that offer matching.
In your case, that's the simple. If she has a 401K that offers matching, I'd start there. And then once you get up to where you have fully taken advantage of the match, then let's switch over to the Roth IRA, because I actually like that one a little better. You put in after tax money, but it goes grows tax free and you never pay tax on all the gains when you pull out down the road. But a lot of times you might get to the maximum on that at sixty five hundred and still want to put a little bit more away. And that's where you'd go to either the simple or the 401K. So I think the starting point is to say, OK, if we want to put 10 to 15 percent away every paycheck, can we do that? And you may not be able to right now. You may not be able to make your budget balance. And if that's the case, then start wherever you can. But that'll give you a goal for an amount that you want to be able to put away. And then my priority in terms of the type of accounts would be first matching second Roth and then third, whatever allows you to get up to the full amount that you want to be able to put away based on those contribution maximums, if that makes sense. Is that helpful?
Yes, sir. Does she keep the Roth that she already has going like that's a good thing? Well, tell me again about her retirement options at work. Does she have a 401K available? Yes, but she's switching to the hospital. And so they're saying they don't have that.
They have like a 457 or something like 457. Yeah. Yeah. That's the same thing as a 401K. So if she'll put in eight percent, they'll do seven. So it'll be 15 percent. Great. Yeah. So I would just let that Roth go, let it keep growing and take full advantage of that 457 and that seven percent match.
And then if she has if you all have more money to put away beyond that, then go back to the Roth. But I would prioritize the 457 first. Thanks for your call, Eric. God bless you guys. Eight hundred five to five.
Seven thousand is the number to call. Let's head to Miami. Hi, John. Go ahead. Hi, I was wanting to talk to you. I love your program.
Listen to it every day. I've been a faithful saver for a long time. I have a rollover IRA that has all about four hundred eighty thousand in it. I currently I'm still currently working. I'm 62 years old, planning on working till at least 65 in my 401K.
I have one point three. So I'm thinking about where I want to live the rest of my life. My wife and I bought a piece of property up in Tennessee and we'd like to build a house there.
Right now, it's kind of difficult with the way things are with inflation. So I'm thinking about taking the money out of my rollover IRA, building the house. And then when I sell the current house, I have maybe putting it back. The current house I have is paid for. I really don't have a lot of debt, but it's kind of hard for me to let go of the all the savings I've had over these years. And I'm just kind of insecure about if I'm going to have enough when it's time to retire. Yeah.
Yeah, very good. Well, there's a couple of issues we've got going on here. I mean, if you're going to pull the money out of the IRA and not have it be counted as a distribution, it would have to get back in there within 60 days in order to not have that treated as a taxable distribution. So that would be a little risky there if you're pulling it out with the hopes that you're going to sell and close on a property and have that funded in such a time that would allow you to put that money back in. So I wouldn't pull it out of the IRA unless you planned on pulling it out. And I'd absolutely work with your CPA to determine the right sequencing of those withdrawals to make sure that you don't pay any unnecessary tax. So for instance, you may want to spread it over two tax years. You could pull half at the end of this year, half next year.
But I wouldn't pull it out with the intention to put it back if there's not certainty that you can do that within the 60-day window. With regard to your uneasiness just about spending this money, I certainly understand that. I don't think there's anything wrong with building as long as you understand that often it can take more time and even more cost than you anticipate. There's a good number of unknowns there.
Even if you get a bid that's not to be exceeded, you just need to make sure you're working with a reputable contractor, that you've addressed any cost increases that may happen with some of the building materials and whether that's planned for or the contractor is going to absorb that. And then I think the bigger issue, Jon, is around just your needs and retirement in terms of the assets you've built. Obviously, you've prioritized saving. You've put away quite a bit of money.
That's great. I think the key is how much do you need in retirement? What is that budget going to look like?
And then let's back into what asset level are you going to need to support that? If you've got a portion coming from Social Security, great. But what is that gap between your guaranteed income sources and what you need to draw from your retirement assets?
And is that realistic just based on the assets you'll have remaining after you deploy any of it into real estate or anything else? And we would typically use as a starting point a 4% withdrawal rate to make sure you're not taking out too much so that you can maintain the principal balance and that money lasts the rest of your life. Hey, appreciate you being on the program, my friend. It sounds like you're making some great decisions here. All the best to you all as you think about transitioning into this next season of life. May the Lord bless you today. I hope you'll make plans to join us again next time for another edition of Faith & Finance. Faith & Finance is provided by Faith Buy and listeners like you.
