James 1.17. a biblical leverage and using God's resources for his glory. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.
That's 800-525-7000. This is faith and finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, it's great to have Ken Boa and Russ Crossan on the program again today. Ken is a pastor and founder of Reflections Ministries.
Russ is executive vice president and chief mission officer at Ronald Blue Trust. Ken, Russ, great to have you back with us. Good to be here. Thanks, Rob.
I'm glad to be with you. Now, this is actually, gentlemen, the second of our interviews on the book the two of you wrote together. It's of course titled, Leverage Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. We think, of course, everyone should pick up a copy and that's why, until the end of the year, we're making it available to folks for a gift of any amount to Faithfi. Just go to faithfi.com and click on the Give tab.
We'd love to put a copy in your hands today, just as our way of saying thanks for supporting the ministry. Now, before we get into the principles of biblical leverage, I want to revisit this idea of what biblical leverage is. You know, as Christians, we give to our church, perhaps to some other ministries as well, hopefully. Is that biblical leverage, Ken, or is there more to it? The concept of leverage is something more than just the idea of what my ideas are, but rather what the scriptures are.
What does the Spirit guide me to do? How much is enough? And then to really process this prayerfully before God, because the way we desecrate the altar of mammon is by giving it away. So it's a violation of the downward pull that the world would naturally define us by our net worth, we define this by our pile of money that we have accumulated. That's a great danger, because we are going to look for security, significance, and satisfaction, but we're going to look for them in the wrong place if we do not get this right.
Yeah, there's no question about that. Now, one of the questions folks struggle with a lot is how much should I give? Ken, will you give them a framework to think about answering that question? Yeah, as I look at it, and it's interesting, as I've said before, that the Old Testament really has four different tithes. One is a passive tithe.
It actually had to do with their not actually using their own land and so forth, gleaning it to the edge. So it's an incredible thing. But in the New Testament, we have principles, and it doesn't tell us an exact amount, but there are certain minimums that we need to see, and how do we define it? Part of it is that you are privileged to give, so to give cheerfully is one of the key components that we see in the epistles. The principles as well include the idea of giving proportionately, and that is a radically different thing, because the more people have in this world, the less proportion they tend to give. They make this that blunder of looking at it in terms of dollars instead of proportion. And so that's a huge issue, and it requires more radical risk, because the more we have, the more it apparently takes for us to risk pursuing the eternal over the temporal, the not yet or the now. So this is a part of the process. And then there are other principles like giving sacrificially. What does that mean, especially for a person who has a really high net worth?
Yes. Yeah, how would you describe that? I mean, Russ, you obviously have worked with a lot of folks who have significant wealth. What does sacrificial giving look like when you've been entrusted with much? Well, you know, it's hard, because you really have everything you need, and you don't have to sacrifice in the traditional sense of the word.
We have to go without something, but maybe you can go without something. You choose to not do something that you would've normally done, even though you could afford it and give that, because that's why it gets harder. If you don't have very much, you know what you have to sacrifice. You sacrifice a meal, or you sacrifice whatever, but if you have a lot, it's tough to sacrifice. And I think that's the faith aspect, is okay, what am I not gonna do that I would've normally done once I understand these concepts that Ken's talking about?
Well, how can I go beyond my comfort level, whatever that is? And for a lot of people, that would be a sacrifice, when they write a check or give an asset that they've never done before, and I think that's what God calls us to do. It's a faith test, and that's one of the things that our wealth can do for us, is help us grow our faith.
Oh, that's exactly right. Well, we're talking today with Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Crosson. Their book is called Leverage, Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. When we come back, much more on this topic, what is the role of the Holy Spirit in the giving decision-making process? What about the prosperity gospel, and what is reverse compounding? That and much more just around the corner.
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I'm Rob West, joining me today, my good friends, Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Crossan. They have recently co-authored the book, Leverage Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. I think it's a must read. In fact, we wanna put a copy in everyone's hands with a gift of any amount to Faithfi. Pick up your copy when you make a gift at faithfi.com.
Just click the give tab. Gentlemen, before the break, we were talking about what it looks like to do proportionate giving, and then also in the New Testament, we see this idea of sacrificial giving. Ken, what's important for us to know about that? Well, this is gonna relate to some things we've been talking about, the eternal and the temporal.
If faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not yet, then we're being invited in scripture to pursue the not yet over the now and the not seen over the visible. That's a huge risk. So in one way, this idea of giving sacrificially is such that it's gonna have an impact on my lifestyle.
What if a person has $100 million? Then the question is, what would it take for that to have an impact on our lifestyle? And it's going to have a great deal of influence because how much does a person really need? I mean, how well can you dress?
How well can you eat and so forth? There's only so much we can do, and it's certainly not 100 million. So these are radical implications of who defines us. Is it our wealth or is it going to be the word? Is God gonna define us and give us our security, significance, or satisfaction? Or are we looking for significance because of our possessions? So it's a big challenge. That's why we're told instructors who are rich in this present world are not to be conceited or to fix their hope in the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
Yeah, it's something you said earlier. It's this faithfulness to opportunity. What about the role of the Holy Spirit in that decision-making process, Ken? It seems to me that the training in listening to the voice of the Spirit is something that's been largely neglected in many people of the faith, but we need to pursue that. If we listen to the prompts of the Spirit and actually ask Him to guide our thinking and our feelings and our thoughts as to where are we to give and how much are we to give, it's involving Him in that process.
The Holy Spirit's a person, not just a force. And so He guides us and illuminates His word. And so deep calls to deep.
So it's going to be more radical, though. It's going to be deeper, it's going to be richer than we ourselves might have imagined. I think, Rob, let me jump in here for a minute, if I could. Ken just quoted 1 Timothy 6, 17 to 19, and struck those who are rich to be generous. And I'd like to give the listeners a four-letter word to tie to that scripture, and that's a wise person. A wise person will do that.
They'll send it on ahead. They'll work on this issue and talk to the Holy Spirit and listen, versus the farmer over in Luke 12, who was not rich towards God, and he was called a fool. So, Rob, what I would have challenged folks with is we all have a choice. We either live as a fool or we live as a wise person. I think most people listening would want to be a wise person not a fool, and so that's helped me have perspective on how important it is that I learned to be generous. And struck those who are rich in this present world to be generous. Yeah, it seems like that's a key verse that really should govern our thinking in this area. Russ, Ron Blue, our friend, our mutual friend, has taught over the years that there are some barriers to giving, they can be financial, they can be spiritual, they can be a lack of vision, but they can also be relational.
Where does accountability come into the equation? Well, you know, like I said earlier, this is a supernatural thing to start giving and not try to keep. We try to hoard, we try to hold onto. And so, I need help in being reminded of these principles we're talking about, but also, in my own personal financial situation, God always promises to meet my needs. I've been doing this for over four decades. I've never had anybody not have their needs met. So, from Philippians, we see that. So, if my needs are met, then I can be generous and I can start moving out of my comfort zone.
And I won't do that without somebody asking me the hard questions, showing me the finish line, and just really challenging me. Yeah. So, what then makes a good steward, Russ? How would you define good stewardship?
Well, I've said that good stewardship is when you apply the biblical principles and you allow yourself to be held accountable because you can convince yourself of anything. And so, and guess what, Rob? We're all gonna stand before God and make an account. I don't have to make an account for you.
You don't have to make an account for me. So, we're all ends of one. And so, I need to have somebody speaking into my life, helping me be able to stand before God and hear, job well done.
Yeah, and that's where accountability comes in. Ken, how does all of this that we've been talking about today reveal the false teaching, then, of the prosperity gospel? Yes, the idea that the fruit of the vine is related to this is a false pickup from the Old Testament covenant community. Israel was a theocratic covenant nation, and they were promised that righteousness would lead to expanding your borders and your businesses and everything with your health. And that notion has been falsely carried into the New Testament because, actually, in the New Testament, it's the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the vine. And there's no guarantee, no connection between righteousness and well-being in terms of financial well-being, nor is there any claim that unrighteousness would necessarily lead to a loss, in that sense, in the New Testament. The idea is that it is a matter of God's calling us to pursue those things which will last forever.
And so, it's a question of allowing God to guide us and to influence our radical decisions to be people for his own possession who are not pulled around by the allures of the world that it would actually cause us to succumb. Which leads us to something, Russ, that you call reverse compounding. We're familiar with what compounding is.
How does reverse compounding work? Well, everybody knows you put money in retirement. The longer it grows, the bigger it's gonna get. But with this giving area, we all have an expiration day. We all have a day where we can go be with Jesus. And so, every day I wait to start my giving journey and start being generous is one last day I have it to compound for my benefit in heaven. Remember we said, store up treasures in heaven? And so, it's the idea that I don't win my end game is, but every day I wait is one last day I have an opportunity to use my resources to impact God's kingdom.
And so, I need to get started sooner than later. Yeah. Well, it's ultimately an invitation, Ken. You said something in an earlier segment around the opportunity we have. We're actually allowed to be a player. We're allowed to participate in God's activity through our giving. That's a privilege, isn't it? It is a privilege. And we must choose the way of gratitude, the way of contentment.
Those are not emotions. Those are perspectives that we embrace as the more we grasp. Who defines us? Is it the world or is it the word? The world will define us by default. Do nothing.
It'll tell you what to go through and what the price tags are. But the word will only define you by discipline. You must actually submit yourself to that truth. And then, setting your eyes on the things above, your value system changes and you treasure not the temporal, but actually you see that the temporal is something that can be leveraged for the eternal. So, this is why I love Jesus when he said, again, something we quoted before in Luke 16, nine, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness so that when it fails, they'll receive you into the eternal dwellings. Because here, clearly, the currency of the kingdom of God is not money, it's not temporal things, it is relationships. And so, the best thing we can do is to take the two things that are going to endure forever, and those are people and the word, and to build the word into people by using our things that are passing away, our time, our talent, and our treasure.
So, by leveraging what's dying and passing away and turning it into that which is gonna live forever, that's a wise stewardship. It sure is, well, we're gonna have to leave it there for today, gentlemen, but thanks for stopping by. We appreciate you being with us. Thanks, Rob, great to be with you.
Good to be with you. That's Ken Boa and Russ Crossan. They're the authors of Leverage, Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain all the way until December 31st. You can get a copy with a gift of any amount to Faithfi. Just go to faithfi.com and click the Give tab. Your calls are next, 800-525-7000.
That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith in Finance. I'm Rob West. We're gonna take a quick break and come back with much more just around the corner. Stick around. We are grateful for support from Soundmind Investing in the Faith in Finance program. If you have money in a retirement account or just a general investing account, you know the stock market can sometimes seem like a rollercoaster, but it is possible to enjoy both profit and peace of mind in investing no matter what's happening in the market. You can see a short video webinar on that topic at soundmindinvesting.org. Since 1990, Soundmind Investing has sought to offer financial wisdom for living well. Soundmindinvesting.org.
Absolutely free. We know you've learned to be suspicious of those words, but really, you can get biblical financial wisdom delivered to your inbox each week absolutely free. Articles, videos, podcasts, and special offers on biblical resources. Nearly 60,000 people receive our free weekly wisdom email and you can too. Create your free Faith Buy account by going to faithbuy.com and click sign up to begin receiving weekly wisdom in your inbox. ["Faith Buy"] Welcome back, this is Faith in Finance. I'm Rob West. We're taking your calls today, 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000.
To Cleveland, hi Mary, go ahead. The reason I'm calling is because we have over $100,000 in debt. And we are paid off with our house, its value is about 150,000.
I'm a PRN nurse, so I don't have a full-time job. He is currently at $115,000 job. My question is, we are about to go through a divorce, which I'm very sad for, and I just need to know how to get a fresh start with paying all this off. We have about 650,000 in a retirement account. That'll have to be split. People tell me that I should take the money out of there to pay off the 50-50 of the debt. So I don't know what to do. Well, I'm so sorry.
Has all of this, so you don't know kind of who's gonna get what and where all of this is gonna land at that point, correct? No, I'm keeping the house. He actually moved out and moved out of state too. So I'm keeping the house. I have two children living with me. They're adults, but they're still gonna stay with me in our home. And it's paid off, but the value's about 150, so I'm assuming I'm gonna have to spend 75 to pay him out. I see, okay. I don't know where to go with the bills.
Yeah, yeah, okay. Obviously, Mary, we're gonna have to see kind of exactly how this comes down. Ohio is not a community property state, but would likely be divided under what's called equitable distribution, where property and debt is based on what a judge determines to be fair in the circumstances. Doesn't always mean it's equal, whereas in a community property state, it would be a straight 50-50.
I'm not an attorney. Your attorney could likely guide you on what to expect, but clearly, if you're getting the home, that would be a $150,000 asset. And then let's say the debt is divided between the two of you, and then you'd have the investments. The goal would be to try to not touch the investments so those could continue to grow. And I think the question would just be, at that point, perhaps could you take on a mortgage that would allow you to pay your former husband the value of his portion of the home that you're keeping, and then also pay off or begin paying off your portion of the credit card debt, whatever happens to come your way?
And again, we'll have to wait and see what that is. Would you have the ability, though, to take on a mortgage at this point, just based on the income you have? If I work full-time somewhere, yes, I can.
But right now, I've been looking for full-time where I want to work, and it's just been hit and miss. So I'm the one who was keeping the house afloat, keeping the kids in Catholic school and stuff like that. He was not working for close to five straight years.
I was the one working 60-hour weeks. So that's when all this debt occurred. I'm really concerned about the retirement account. I know it should split at 50-50, but as I said, some people say, I should take that money out, take the penalties, and just pay off everything to be clean and fresh. But I'm thinking that would be more detrimental to pay the penalty and the taxes that are gonna fall off of that.
Yeah, that's just really expensive money because you'd have a penalty and the taxes that would be due and so we're talking a minimum of 30% right off the top. So I agree with you. I'd like to preserve that, if at all possible. But we're just gonna need to see how this all comes down. There'll obviously be what's called a qualified domestic relations order that indicates how the retirement assets will be distributed to either of you.
And then we'll have to wait for all of that to take place. Let's do this perhaps, Mary. I'd love to be of help to you and I'm so sorry to hear you're having the weight of all of this that you're having to navigate with kids and debt and I know it's a lot and on top of going through a divorce.
So I'd like to connect you with one of our certified Christian financial counselors, somebody who could just be there to encourage you but also help you once you know exactly where this is going, help you make some decisions around your budget, your spending plan, kinda how you go about thinking about paying off the debt, getting it connected to Christian credit counselors if that's necessary. Just somebody to walk alongside you to be a sounding board with maybe a few sessions on the phone or through a video conference. Would that be of help to you?
I think it would, yes. Yeah, okay. Mary, thank you for your call today and stay on the line. We'll get your information and get somebody in touch with you. May the Lord bless you. Let's head to Indiana. Hi, Ivy.
Thanks for calling, go ahead. I am Mary and I'm a special education high school teacher. Before I started teaching, I invested into a 401k plan at my previous employer as I worked at a tech company. So I rolled in about $50,000 into like a new company sponsor 401k.
And over the years, I've just added on to that. And I also have a teacher retirement plan that's given to us from the state of Indiana. I'm just trying to figure out like the best investment options for myself because I work at a charter now and I really don't care for the company that they want us to pour our 401k in. So I'm just kind of torn with what to do with the 50,000 that I have. And then secondly, my husband, he tells me not to worry about my retirement because he's a government employee and I'll get a pension. But I don't know what that amount is on the pension that I will see. Sure. I'm really not sure like how I should plan for my future because I am married and you know, I plan to retire and teach you.
I just don't know what to do. Yeah, how much do you have in the 401k from the all-in? From the all-in, like the one that's in funding. Yeah, I know you brought in 50 and combine that and then fund, you know, continue to fund it. What's the value on it today? So the value on it today is probably like 60,000 and that's over the last seven years.
Okay, all right. Yeah, I think what you all need is a financial plan. I mean, you need to be on the same page and I think you need somebody who can really advise you and help you determine, okay, what is our lifestyle today? What will it be in retirement? A lot of times folks live on 70 to 80% of their pre-retirement income. How much are we gonna need to fund that given that you're gonna have your teacher's retirement, you may or may not have social security, he may or may not, he might have a retirement and then you've got this 60,000. What is your savings goal and are you on track ahead or behind?
And that way you'll know, you'll have a plan that says, okay, here's where we're going and here's what we need to do to get there and this has been considered in light of our values and priorities but I think apart from that, you're just kinda guessing and that's what's making you feel uneasy. So I'd encourage you to head to our website, faithfi.com, click Find a CKA and see if your husband would be willing to engage a certified Kingdom Advisor, not necessarily to manage the money, although I would roll it out to an IRA but and that's gonna deal with you not being comfortable with the provider because now it's somewhere else and you can invest it but also to have a financial plan so you guys know where you're headed and you've defined those goals and that'll give you some peace of mind. So head to our website, faithfi.com, click Find a CKA. Thanks for your call. Hey, we're almost out of time but I wanted to let you know that you don't ever have to miss a program. Just download our Faithfi app for your mobile device and take us with you anywhere. Thanks for joining us today. I look forward to talking with you again next time on Faith and Finance. Faith and Finance is provided by Faithfi and listeners like you. We'll see you next time.
