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Let us start with Chandler in Oklahoma. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown.
Thank you so much for having me on. I was wondering if you could help me with something that I've really been struggling with. I'm a Trinitarian, but as I've been studying Jehovah's Witnesses arguments, I've kind of arrived at a problem. I don't agree with everything that they say, but sometimes they do make some points that are pretty clear. And so I'm at this place where I don't want to be deceived, but I also don't want to believe something just because everyone else believes it and out of tradition. And so when it comes to talking about if Jesus really is God or He was created, can this not be objectively proven with what is clearly true or does it just depend on how we interpret it? Oh, no, it's clear.
It's clear. If Jehovah's Witnesses tell you other, they even have to have their own translation of the Bible, which is pitiful. I mean, it has real bad errors in it. They even create stuff that doesn't exist to explain away things. You know, when Jesus says before Abraham was, I am in John eight fifty eight, they have to turn things upside down in terms of meaning of words. And if they say, you know, John one one, the word was a God. Well, how many gods do you have? I thought you were supposed to have one God. You know, now Jehovah's Witnesses have two gods that they make a bigger mess. And because the New Testament clearly speaks of worshipping Jesus, Revelation five, all of creation worships the lamb.
Now you're worshipping a false god. So they claim that the church like the tradition. No, they're they're the ones with a bizarre tradition. It goes back to early in the church. There were some who denied the deed of Jesus. So they have their own traditions. The whole reason they have to teach you what the Bible says and do Bible studies with you and have you read your literature is because no one reading the Bible on their own would ever become a Jehovah's Witness.
They'd never dream of some of the wacky things that they hold to. The whole system is bizarre. It has absolutely no scriptural foundations and truth here and there.
There may be a minor sub point where they interpret a verse correctly, but it's really bankrupt. Here's what I'd encourage you to do so you can sift it out for yourself. OK, go to my YouTube channel. All right. Or just let's just try this. So go to YouTube. And just type in.
I'm going to try this, though. Dr. Brown Dale Tuggy. And here you get it. Yeah, you've got a full debate of of us. Don't watch the review where people on both sides are going to get their viewpoint, but just watch the debate.
He's not a Jehovah's Witness, but he holds to the same view that Jesus was a created being, that he's just a glorified man. So are you able to jot this down, Chandler, so you can look at it later? I actually think I've started that debate. OK. I don't know if I ever finished it.
All right. Well, watch it through. Even Hebrews one. There's no way to get around what's written in Hebrews one where the end of not only your throne. Oh, God is forever and ever spoken about the sun. But then it goes on to say in the beginning you create it. And the heavens are the work your hands is quoting from Psalm 102 about about Hashem, about Yahweh. So there's there's no possible way to support their system scripturally.
It's really bankrupt. Here's the other thing to to type in. Look for the the debate about this same subject.
It's James White, Michael Brown, Joe Goode, Anthony Buzzard. So, Anthony, I've seen that one. OK. Yeah, I think it's almost like they they've convinced you that maybe you just believe it. Others believe it's not really in the Bible. And so overwhelmingly strong the deity of Jesus. And then from that, you know, the eternal spirit, even the denial of the personhood of the spirit is so bizarre. Chandler, for example, we're told by Paul that the the the manifestation of the spirit is given. There's the word of wisdom.
That's not an inanimate thing. In Acts five, Peter says to Ananias and Sephardic, you lied to the Holy Spirit. You don't lie to a saying or a power. And throughout the Bible, the Holy Spirit is speaking and acting and leading. We have fellowship. We have intimate fellowship with the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is just a power, how do you have fellowship with a power? I'm just quoting scripture to you.
So it's really bankrupt. There's plenty of stuff that demolishes their doctrine. I just encourage you to keep looking at the word and asking God for insight. But don't just sit and study with them. You need to have solid Christians there with you or be part of a healthy church. Otherwise, all you're doing is getting caught up in the new traditions of men, you know, and some of the weakest ones out there. Right.
I know I see a lot of things that they say that they have no direct evidence for. But at the same time, when I've studied into Trinitarian beliefs, sometimes we make up creeds and things that may not align with what is explicitly stated either. So that's... But don't worry about the creeds. Don't worry about the creeds.
Just go by scripture. But anything that ends up where Jesus is Lord is being the whole universe confessing Him as Lord to the glory of the Father. If He Himself is not divine, then He is sharing in some of the glory, whereas God gives His glory to no other. When all the universe says worthy is the Lamb who was slain and praises Him in the same language they're praising the Father, if He Himself is not divine, now you have two gods and you have the Son taking glory away from the Father, whereas He shares His glory with no one.
Right. Can I share with you some things that I've observed myself just from studying this deeper? Why don't you give me the biggest question that you have, your strongest argument? Well, I would say that from studying it, I still see it as a Trinitarian. I still see that the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. But this instance where we see that He was the Son, it says, today have I begotten me, and that whenever He became man, He would be called the Son of God. And so it seems as though He wasn't the Son of God before He was incarnate. He was the Word. Wouldn't that be correct?
Well, some have argued that. I have a colleague of a colleague who said that Biblical terminology is that He's the Word made flesh, not the Son made flesh. But what does it mean when He's declared the Son?
So, on the one hand, being born of Miriam, but not having an earthly father, He's the Son of God, correct? But then Acts 13, quoting Psalm 2, in Romans 1, He's declared the Son of God with power at His resurrection, because that's His royal coronation. Psalm 2 is a coronation psalm, and when the king was being enthroned in ancient Israel, they would confess over Him, God says, You are my son. Because that's how David was considered God's son, and a successor to God's son. So, he's called the Son of God by birth, then he's called the Son of God by resurrection. And then Hebrews 1 says the Son is the shining forth of the Father, which gives you the sense of eternal.
What does it say? Hebrews 1, of the Son He says, Psalm 45, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. So, Hebrews 1 is telling us that Psalm 45, Old Testament, is calling the Son, God. So, I would say that He has always been the Son of God, and has revealed then the Son of God through Miriam, Son of God through resurrection, but the eternal Son. Either way, though, I wouldn't even worry about that. You know what I'm saying? It's terminology. We still recognize that He's in the bosom of the Father, right?
That's what it says in Psalm 118, that He came forth from the Father, returning to the Father. Right. I think another thing that I'm struggling with... Stay right here. Our phone lines are jammed, so we come back. Give me your biggest single issue after this. If you have more questions, in fact, Chandler, write your best questions.
Let's do this. Write your best questions to egal, i-g-a-l, at realmessiah.com. He's a former Jehovah's Witness, and he's my academic assistant. Write your best questions to egal, i-g-a-l, at realmessiah.com. He's a former Jehovah's Witness. He would love to help you. Let's do that, Chandler.
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Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. So last night, I hit a workout with a colleague, a brutal, intense workout. I beat him by a few minutes, but his form was much better, so kind of balanced.
Oh, I still would have beaten him. But anyway, I had some colleagues over and gave each of them a free sample, a full month's supply of TriVita nitric oxide. So check it out, guys. They said, is this multilevel marketing? I said, no, no.
I said, but I use daily. I said, if you enjoy it, use the code BROWN25 at TriVita, and they'll donate 100% of the first order to the Line of Fire, and you get a 25% discount. So hey, I practice what I preach. Let's go over to Austin, Texas. Sean, welcome to the Line of Fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. I'm from Justin.
I know it sounds awesome. Ah, Justin, no. It says Justin.
It's just that even though I've got this screen with giant, giant-sized writing, because I'm nearsighted, it's a little foggy. So it is Justin. But thank you. Thanks for the correction there. Okay. Okay. I'm seeing people who are commenting on Christian slash conservative fights all the time, and they are saying the word, let's see here, Yahovah, Yehoshua, Yahuah, and a few more other things that I didn't write down. And I'll go check them out, and they'll always be on, it'll say Hebrew. And I'm going like, well, if you were Hebrew, wouldn't you know how to say all those and write them properly?
Anyway. But then they go on to say, when we're talking about whatever, because I'm not going to attack, I'm not going to say da-da-da-da. They'll come back at me and say, well, you need to be following the law. If you love God, you need to be following the law. And I'm going like, no, that's why Jesus, because we couldn't.
And he showed us we couldn't. And if we try to follow the law, haven't we got to just let Jesus go by the wayside and don't honor him as our sacrifice? What's going on? It's just more and more.
Yeah. Well, what's happened was you're always going to have different extremes in different groups. You have on the one side, the hyper grace people and, you know, all our sins are forgiven before we even commit them. And therefore, you don't ever confess your sin and repentance is right. It's just, you know, accept their teaching, et cetera. Or you have some real extreme antinomians that it's kind of anything goes because we're under grace. And then the pendulum swings the other way that everyone's supposed to keep the six hundred thirteen commandments of the Torah. And none of none of them do never even come close to it. You know what I'm saying? It's just it's such a ridiculous thing.
They'll pick and choose a few things and they're plenty easy to ask him. So just want to know, for example, that if if it's up to you, if you had a disobedient rebellious child, you'd stone them. Right. If they you'd stone them to death or someone cursed their parents, you'd stone them to death. I just want to be clear that if someone committed adultery stone to death, that's because that's under that's under the law also. And just want to make sure that you're following all the ritual purity laws of the Torah and and on and on.
And it's just pick and choose. And then the biggest thing, all the massive laws about sacrifice offering what you're following those. Well, we don't have a temple.
Is it you don't have a temple of the Messiah fulfill them. So he brings the law to its fullness, the moral commandments of the Torah he takes to a higher level. So adultery, not just outwardly, but of the heart murder, not just outwardly, but of the heart. He takes the moral commands to a higher level, everything having to do with priesthood sacrifice approach to God.
He fulfills with his death on the cross and his high priestly ministry. And then the ethical commandments of the Torah for Israel, we make application. But there are certain laws that God gave to Israel to keep Israel separate from the nations. For example, not wearing garments with two types of fabric or sowing a field with two types of seed. That was to teach them separation, separation, separation.
Intrinsically, there's nothing moral or immoral about wearing a garment with two different types of fabric. So these were just separation laws for Israel. And they were never given in the New Testament for everyone. Acts 15 was explicit.
That was the time to say it. And the apostles said, no, the Gentiles do not have to live by the law of Moses. Let's give them these basics. And when people say, yeah, yeah, but it says the Torah is taught, they'll get the rest. That's someone it means because when the word gets out, it causes rejoicing in the Gentile world at the end of Acts 15 because they realize, OK, we don't have to do all that. And then the rest of the New Testament reinforces the moral commandments, the moral ethics. That's the new covenant under which all believers live. So you just have to ignore this.
And we've got the Yahuwah names and Yah'shua names, which is indefensible, unsupportable from a philological Hebrew background. It's absolutely false. I read your, I watched your take on that.
So I already knew that. But just ignore it. Just ignore it.
There's no sense arguing. Just ignore it. Glorify Yeshua. Glorify Jesus. And and if if you have harmony with the folks and can fellowship around what you agree on and agree to differ on the rest.
Great. If they're going to come their way, they represent a tiny, confused minority. Many times it's the path to backsliding. We've seen people completely deny the Lord, fall away, fall into legalism. So by all means, have a wonderful appreciation for the beauty of the law and the truth of the law and praise God for his law.
And then understand the purposes of law. Some of it was to keep Israel separate. Some of it was to reveal God. Some of it was to reveal our sinfulness.
Some of it was to point to the Messiah. So let's have a healthy appreciation for it without going under something God never intended. And just don't get into a battle over it.
If people are contentious, move away. All right. I do tell them walk. I'm glad you've been shown the light that the Holy Spirit wants you to walk in, but I'm walking in the light he's shown me.
Yeah, that's even especially gracious because I don't believe God is showing them that stuff. But, amen. Thank you. God bless. Bye bye. All right.
Let us go to our buddy Eddie in Madison, Connecticut. What's the latest dispute in your home Bible study? Well, this was a big one, Dr. Brown, and I caused it again, I think. But we were talking about… No, not you. Seriously?
Not me. Without the shedding of blood, there's no forgiveness of sins. And we started talking, and I said, guys, this just hit me like a ton of bricks.
We're going to have to call Dr. Brown, but here it is. I said, Jesus taught the most famous prayer in the New Testament, the Lord's Prayer. I said, let's say it. Our Father, who art in heaven, we know it, hallowed be your name, and go a little further down. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. I said, this is Jesus teaching this. He's saying that God the Father is going to forgive your sins with no mediator. Now, I said to them, but think about what Jesus said a little further down the road. He said, no man could come to the Father but through me. So, was the Our Father avoid prayer?
It was only good for like a couple months? Because you couldn't use that no more. You'd have to go through him. And Jesus said, if you go any other way, you're a thief and a robber.
So, why wouldn't he tell those people? And I said, just, Dr. Brown, not to drive you crazy. I said, if I was in the crowd, and I listened to Jesus teach me that prayer, and a few months went by after he arose, and guys came to me and said, oh, there's a new way now. You've got to go through the Son. I would say, you know what, pal? I heard Jesus teach on this. He told me how to pray, my friend. I'm going right to the Father.
How would I do it? How would I make sense of it? Yeah, yeah. Hey, you know, I do have to say the questions that you folks come up with are sometimes unique.
And yes, they often come from you, Eddie. So, I'm going to start the answer, and I'm going to have to finish on the other side of the break. And then, Jeremiah, Willie, Gideon, we're coming your way right after the break.
So, here's the short answer. No Jew hearing that would think that does not mean I don't need the Day of Atonement in the temple. Every year, I don't need to pray for forgiveness. They wouldn't think Jesus just threw out all the Torah. They would just understand we have a system of atonement in place, the Yom Kippur Day of Atonement. We have blood sacrifices in place. We have repentance for sin.
We have all that in place. And he's talking about our daily relationship with God. You didn't need to go to the temple to offer sacrifice every time you sinned. You could simply repent and ask God for forgiveness, but for ultimate atonement, getting into right relationship with God, forgiveness for the nation, that only came one way. And that was through the blood sacrifice system through the Day of Atonement, which ultimately points to the Messiah. So, God only forgives sins ultimately through what Jesus did on the cross, but on a daily basis, we're asking for washing, we're asking for cleansing. If there's something we've done, we're asking for forgiveness. So, he's always forgiving, Eddie, based on what he did on the cross, just like he was forgiving based on the priestly intercession, temple sacrifices, and all that.
That was all ongoing. Now, this is just in my daily relationship. It remains this day. We pray the Lord's Prayer to this day. But all the forgiveness comes from this one place. You heard it as either or.
It's not either or, it's both and. Only through Jesus. And yes, we continue to pray this because it's how God works. Hey friends, Michael Brown here. My delight to serve as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. We are living in such urgent times today, friends, that all of us are in the line of fire. There's a target on your back.
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Click donate. Thank you so much for standing with us. So, Eddie, again, just to summarize the point. A Jew hearing that in the first century would not have thought that Jesus was saying, oh, we don't need the temple system. Oh, we don't need the Day of Atonement. Oh, we don't need the blood sacrifices. Oh, we don't need to repent. You didn't even mention repentance there, did he? We just pray for forgiveness.
This is both and this is you have a temple system. You have sacrifices. You have the Day of Atonement. You have repentance. And in your relationship with God, these are prayers you pray every day.
Just keep the slate clean. This is not even the forgiveness of salvation once for all. This is the ongoing relationship with God in terms of where I've messed up, where I've fallen short, Lord, forgive me, wash me, cleanse me. But how did God forgive sin ever? Well, Jesus was predestined as the slam before the foundation of the world. God always saw forgiveness coming through the cross. Anyone who's ever forgiven is ultimately through the cross.
So none of that has changed. All right. But thanks, as always, for the call. Let's go over to Jeremiah in Canada.
Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. Hey. Yeah, I had a question. A while back, I listened to a debate you had. I can't remember the name of the guy you're debating with now, but it was an eschatology debate. And it was with a post-millennialist. Was it Don Preston?
I don't think so. Was it Michael Sullivan? Somehow I have the name Gary in the back of my head, but I can't remember the name. Oh, Gary Demore.
Gary Demore. Yes, sir. That's it there. So he pressed really hard on the specific phrase, this generation shall not pass away, Matthew 24. And I've been pressed on that, too. And I decided to look up the word this in that phrase. And the word this in Greek, according to the Strongs, is a different this from the Chapter 23. So this generation in Chapter 23 is... I don't know. I don't know if my Greek at all is going to get by you. Don't worry about that.
You wouldn't get hung up with that. It's dative, accusative, and then this generation in Matthew 24 is nominative. So one is dative and one is naming the generation. Nominative and dative, right. It doesn't change the word. It's just the form that's being used. Don't major on that.
I appreciate you digging on that. Ignore that part. The fact of the matter is that first, Dr. Demara has to recognize that if you read the earliest commentaries on Matthew for centuries after the death and resurrection of Jesus, they all recognize much of Matthew 24, virtually all, was a future thing still. They knew there'd be future tribulation, future Antichrist, future second coming. So that was the historic interpretation, almost overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, for centuries. So you think, okay, if they all got that wrong, how did that happen?
That's the first thing. The second thing, as I emphasized in the debate, and he really missed this point, he missed the Greek here. When the disciples are asking him, what will be the sign of your coming, when will all this happen, the destruction of the temple, what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age, that that phrase, the end of the age, is used in Matthew 28, 20, where Jesus says, I'm with you always to the end of the age. Dr. Demara read it as if it was two separate things, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age, meaning the end of the temple, which is completely bizarre reading.
I've read everything I could possibly read on that, every commentary from every angle. No reputable commentator that I've found of Matthew, no interpreter of the Greek, would read it like that. In any case, it's not a comma. The Greek is, I'm with you always to the end of the age, is ultimately what he's saying. So we know what the end of the age is. It's future.
It hasn't happened yet. So the disciples are asking him a two-fold question, thinking it's all going to happen once. One of these things is going to happen, what's the sign of your coming to the end of the age?
So he answers it all together and weaves it in together as one. So Matthew 24, 34, this generation will not pass until all these things have come to pass. It could be read in terms of that first generation and everything he said up until then. It could be read in terms of the final generation at the end of the age. When they see these things, it will come to pass. Or it could be read as woven together for that first generation and for the last generation. The one who sees A come to pass will see B come to pass. The one who sees Y come to pass will see Z come to pass. So there's so many different ways to interpret that.
And to hammer it the way preterists do is to really go way beyond what Scripture is saying. Alright, so you don't think that the dative versus nominative makes any difference at all? No, do you know the difference with what nominative and dative are referring to?
What's that? Yeah, so nominative is just the basic word or noun, etc. Dative is if you have the word to or for with a preposition for. It's the same word. So if it was Greek, if I just said Michael Brown nominative, to Michael Brown, that's dative. I'm calling Michael Brown or accusing Michael Brown, then it's accusative.
It's all the same words, just different grammatical functions. That's all it is, so don't look at that at all. Don't look at the this.
It has nothing to do with it. Alright, but thanks. I always love people who dig. Thanks for investigating. God bless.
Thanks for answering. Alright, 866-34-TRUTH. Let us go over to Willie in Kentucky, where, not in the same place, but my family members are there for our granddaughter Riley's horse event, equestrian event. Anyway, thanks for joining us, Willie.
Hey, thanks for having me, Dr. Brown. My question is, like, I've been doing a lot of study with Scripture, and I'm learning how to, you know, I guess, exegetically figure it out, and how to apply it to my life. And I was listening to your debate with the cessationist friend, Sam Waldron, I believe it was, and, you know, they were talking about, when do you apply the words of Jesus to our life?
You know, like, when do we pull it out? And you were talking about, like, the universal promise or universal principle that we do certain things. And so, like, can you apply every promise to you, like, that Jesus had spoke, like, to the disciples, when he said, you know, Acts 1-8, you shall receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you. And then, you know, I believe that, and I receive that. I speak in tongues, I lay hands on the sick, I do all that. But teaching it to others, you know, I'm like, it's more than just saying, I believe it, and you need to believe it, you know? So I need to understand how to teach that.
Can you help me? Yes, sir. So there's a method to it. For example, if Jesus made a universal statement, which would have been my argument with Dr. Waldron, John 14-12, whoever believes in me, in Greek, Hapistoene, and Emma, whoever believes in me will do the works I've done, even greater works. So look at that phrase every time it occurs in the Greek, whoever believes in me. And you'll see that every time it's universal, whoever believes in me, John 6-35, whoever believes in me, John 11-24-25, that it occurs over and over again in the Gospels, whoever believes in me or in the words of Jesus, that's for everybody, everybody, everybody, everybody.
So if it's universal language, then unless there's something directly that says, I'm only talking about people right here, which is not the case, you wouldn't use universal language, that speaks for itself. Does Acts 1-8 speak for itself? You could say Luke 24-49, stay in the city until you're endued with power from on high. Acts 1-8, you receive power and the Holy Spirit comes on you. 1 Corinthians 4-19, kingdom of God, not a matter of words, but of power. Yeah, but how do we know that applies to us today? That was for the apostles.
That was, OK, fair question. So then we keep reading in Acts, Acts 2, Peter preaches, Acts 2-36, Let all the house of Israel know with assurance God has made this Jesus, whom you crucify, both Lord and Messiah, the people are cut to the heart, they cry out, what must we do? What does Peter say? Acts 2-38, we repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, the Messiah, for the forgiveness of sins.
And then he goes on from there. What does he say then in Acts 2-39? For the promise, forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for the promises to you and your children and all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. So the promise of the Holy Spirit is to those who repent and are baptized, receive forgiveness of sins, to us, our children, all that are afar off. So is there any indication now in the New Testament that the Holy Spirit has changed? That we receive a different Holy Spirit or a different aspect of the Holy Spirit?
No, not at all. In fact, to the contrary, what we find in the New Testament is that the gifts of the Spirit, tongues, prophecy, that's to continue. Paul's explicit, it's a command. He says earnestly, desire, the gifts of the Spirit, especially you can prophesy.
If you're not earnestly desiring that, you're in disobedience to a command. Don't forbid speaking in tongues, encourage, especially seek prophecy, etc. So the New Testament is encouraging the continuance of these things. We are told that just like that, they receive the Spirit with supernatural empowerment. Now, we receive the same Spirit. What happened to the non-apostles like Stephen and Philip in Acts? They operated in the same power of the Spirit. What about the Corinthian believers?
They operated in the power of the Spirit. So the promise is there, Acts 2.39, it's universal for all believers, same Spirit, we should expect the same glorious work of the Spirit to glorify Jesus and set the captives free. So you can't just, some verses you can just pull out one verse because it speaks for itself. But others, you want to put scriptures together and say, okay, there it is. So scriptures are clear and we receive the same Spirit. The Holy Spirit has not changed. Let me say one other thing and thank you for the call.
Let me say this one last thing. God has always desired intimacy with his people, intimate fellowship with his people. That's why he communicates with us in so many different ways through history. You say, well now we have the Bible, he communicates through the Bible. So hang on.
And others have talked about this, a caller brought this up not long ago. What about the nature of God? What about fellowshipping with him where he continues to communicate that God gave scripture to Israel and continued to communicate with his people? Jesus came into the world. We've got the gospels being written, the epistles being written. He continued to communicate with his people. You read church history, he continues to communicate with his people. So it's not adding to the Bible.
The Bible is a specific collection of books with specific function to tell us what we need to know about God, need to know about God and salvation and the foundational things on every level. Black and white, that's it. It's there.
Can't add to that. But of course it's his nature. He desires to fellowship with us and that's a two-way street. It's not just me pouring out my heart to God, it's God sharing his heart with us. He wants to do it. Forget about tongues, prophecy, healing, the sick, just communion.
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These statements are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. This is how we rise up It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on the Line of Fire, 866-34-TRUTH.
Let us go to Gideon in Tampa, Florida. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Alright, thank you so much, Dr. Brown. Thank you for taking my call.
Thank you for your work, your teaching for so many years. I read the book, I'm Not Afraid of the Antichrist, and the rapture did not make sense to me before and now the book has helped me a lot to put things in order. But as I was reading a lot of the end of time prophecy, I would like to know your understanding or your perspective of the sequence of events from the book of Revelation when it comes to the end of time. Since there will be no rapture, so according to the book of Revelation, so the end of everything from the book of Revelation, the judgments and everything, us as believers, if we are here, all that, please. Yeah, so the big picture is that we will be here until Jesus appears gloriously for the world to see at the end of whatever tribulation period there is. As God's wrath is being poured out on the world, He will keep His people.
Revelation even mentions that. So don't touch these who have the seal of God. So although there will be great persecution and upheaval, God's wrath will not be poured out on His people. We'll be protected from His wrath. But we will be here on the earth until Jesus appears for the world to see. We are then caught up to meet Him and we descend together back with Him for the whole world to see.
So we're caught up to meet Him in the air as He returns and escort Him back as He destroys the wicked. It seems that what follows then is a time of cleansing, purification on the earth would be the culmination of what's spoken of, for example, in Ezekiel 38-39. And at that point would be our time of standing before the judgment seat of Christ that's spoken of in Romans 14 and 2 Corinthians 5 where we give account for our lives and receive our reward. And when the nations are judged, Matthew 25, 31-46, the sheep and the goats, Zechariah 14, the survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem, so there will be a destruction of the wicked attacking Jerusalem and then a judging on the earth with certain ones now entering the Millennial Kingdom.
So in their earthly human form will be resurrected, glorified. And then at the end of a thousand years, that is when Satan is loosed, there's a final human rebellion which is then destroyed and then the final judgment, Revelation 20, the Great White Throne Judgment verses 11-15 where everyone whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire. As for the events within Revelation, does it kind of culminate in chapter 11 and then recapitulate beginning in chapter 12? Is it all sequential like this follows this follows this? There's a lot of debate among scholars and how much applied to the first century, how much exclusively the end of the age. Because I've never been a scholar of Revelation and there's so many different views, I kind of read it just to be moved spiritually by the wickedness of the world and the power of God and his plan of the ages and shaking of all things without trying to figure it out, more kind of moved by the message of it. But the Lord's sequence, that's what I understand as I read Scripture.
Okay, alright, thank you so much. But one last thing, so when it comes to the Battle of Armageddon, so we will be here on earth also because after the one year that you mentioned, the revolt, man against God, so all these fight will be with Jesus in his kingdom on earth and us and everyone else, but would there still be chance for people to join the kingdom and how would that be when they're transformed or in the human form? So up until he returns, it's just like today, it's not a different gospel, it's not a different message, it's still salvation by grace, by the mercy of God through the cross.
Up until the last moment when he returns, that's the only way anyone can be saved, same way. After he returns, you now have the people who enter the millennial kingdom, if they were saved, they would have been caught up with us. So these are human beings who were not destroyed when he returns, who went to the millennial kingdom and that's where it seems that Israel will serve as a priest of the nation to teach people about Messiah. There's nothing in the Bible, if we understand the millennial kingdom rightly, there's nothing in the Bible that says and this is how people will be saved in the millennial kingdom, but since we understand salvation always comes the same way. Old Testament believers knew what they knew and believed, we now have a greater revelation through Jesus coming into the world, we believe. My understanding is even the millennial kingdom, salvation will still come the same way by people putting their faith in Jesus and receiving mercy through him, not by doing good enough works to make it.
If people could do good enough works, we wouldn't need the cross. But the Bible actually, to my knowledge, nowhere addresses how people are saved in the millennial kingdom, but it will be a glorious time on the earth when the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. So I understand just more and more people will become worshippers of the God of Israel and followers of the Messiah. But that's just my understanding. I can't give you a chapter and verse that prove that because the Bible doesn't give us that kind of detail about the future. We just know how God has always saved.
We expect it to be the same then. But thank you for the questions and the kind words. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. God bless. All right.
866-34-TRUTH, we go to Josh in central New Jersey. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Oh, hey. How are you? Hey, doing well. Thanks.
Good. Yeah, so I was listening the other day and it seemed like on the program you were asking, looking for people who would talk about the perspective of, like, why would a Christian want to support Kamala Harris? And from what I heard, it wasn't like too many people called in. I understand afterwards a few people posted, but we didn't get anyone to call.
Right at the end, someone called. But it was I mean, it wasn't what I was looking for in terms of give me a case, a Christian case for Kamala Harris, given her extreme radical abortion stand, among other things. Like I've said, I understand if someone has issues with voting for Donald Trump, I get that. But I certainly could not understand someone saying, I love Jesus.
I love the word. I care about biblical standards. And I'm going to vote for someone who wants to reinstate Roe and abolish every pro-life law in America. So do you want to make that case, Josh?
Well, I don't know about making the case, but I definitely feel like I'm open to the idea. I am a Bible-believing Christian. Me and my wife were involved in the Alpha ministry for a really long time.
And so it was always an outreach ministry. And one of the things that has bothered me the most about the perception of us as believers, under the, with the support, so much support of Donald Trump has been, I think, the creation of a perception that we're okay as believers with a lot of the things that we see him do and say. And so that's one of the things that, like, has been the most painful for me, probably through this whole period, is like watching that part of it. And so I think if, like, the last three elections, I didn't actually vote for either of the main party candidates because I sort of had a conviction of, you know, as someone who's trying to minister to people who might feel either way, it would be better to be able to say, you know, I'm okay with people that vote for either way. So... Let me just, only because of time, I'd love to extend this discussion, but I'm looking at the clock. So if you don't mind, let me jump in and share a few thoughts, okay? Number one, I have been shouting for years, shouting to some people's annoyance that our allegiance to Jesus must be made known to the world much, much, much, much more strongly than our support of a candidate.
That's number one. Number two, we are not the defenders or apologists of the candidate and we should not be identified with that candidate. We should be identified with Jesus. So if I voted for Donald Trump, which I did in 2016 and 2020, I wanted to shout in the loudest words to the whole world at the top of my lungs, Jesus is my savior! And then this tiny little thing over here, and I voted for Donald Trump.
So that's the first thing. I agree with you that the degree to which we became identified with Trump, became known as his supporters, but his defenders, his apologists, and that we downplayed ugly things he would say or outright lies, we downplayed that. It made us look bad. And on top of it, even worse, we often became like him. Our social media pages sounded like Donald Trump and we're supposed to be followers of Jesus. And again, this is someone who voted for him twice so far.
That's one thing. So I agree with you, if you read my book, The Political Seduction of the Church, you'll see that loud and clear. However, I don't think that that should stop you yourself from voting because you can explain, you know, abortion is a really big issue to me. If you could see it through my eyes and believe that that was killing innocent people, would you say it's important? Yeah, so that's why I vote this way. Or, you know, I'm really concerned about our borders and fentanyl coming in, it's the number one cause of death for Americans between 1844. I don't think Kamala Harris did a good job with abortion, but you don't even have to discuss it.
Here, why can't it simply be, you're talking about Jesus, and they say, well, how do you vote? I don't know that it's going to come up. But if they do, say, well, that's private. I keep that private.
I don't think that should be an issue. Why can't you do that? Vote your conscience. Preach the gospel. You don't have to bring up politics. If someone does, you can just say, that's private. My voting is private.
And if they really push it, say, well, let's talk about more. Let's forget politics. Let's talk moral issues. Let's talk about the killing of the unborn. Let's talk about the mutilation of gender-confused children. Let's talk about that. Forget politics. Let's talk about the issues. You can still do that, and that's a way to bring righteousness as well. May the Lord bless each of you.
