Is there really such a thing as ex-gay? It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Here's the number to call, 866-34-8784. 866-34-TRUTH. I am looking at my call screen right now, ready to bring on my guest, who himself is ex-gay, has written a book about his journey and has a lot of wisdom to offer us, except he's not answering his phone right now.
So we are trying again to connect with Gary Ingram and can't wait to bring him on. But if you have a call, if you have a question, is there such a thing as ex-gay? Can people really change? How do people deal with these attractions? How deep are they?
Are they genetic? And what about trans activism? Everyone says we care about the children.
Who's on the right side of it? Does it really help kids to put them on hormones to stop the onset of puberty? Is that really helpful? And what about sex change surgery, so-called sex change surgery, if you can't change on sex, is that helpful?
Does it prevent depression and suicide later in life? We've got questions about those things. I'd love to speak with you. 866-348-7884 is the number to call. Let me remind you, if you're not getting our inspirational Frontline newsletter, it will encourage you. It will stir you. It will inform you. And it's yours free. It's digital. It's free. It comes once a month. Here's what you do.
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I know Gary was really looking forward to the interview today, so we'll see what happens. Sometimes there are time zone issues or connection issues, but for right now, let's talk about the state of the culture and the state of the society. Nations don't collapse overnight. And for a nation to collapse, for an empire to collapse, it can take centuries, obviously many, many, many decades. There are cultural things that unfold, and the implications of them can be seen early on. But the results may not manifest for many, many years.
For example, let's look in the physical realm. If you eat unhealthily as a young person, you seem to get away with it for a while. I ate tremendously unhealthily as a boy, but I was still super active.
I played sports and played, ran, played with friends, and I had my unhealthy diet every day. But you're young, you don't feel the results of it. However, every day you're sowing bad seeds and eventually you will reap. So you get to a certain age, it starts to catch up with you.
You get to a certain age and your body is affected. The same way you might have bad financial habits, you kind of get away with it. It seems like you're getting away with it, but ultimately bad seeds are being planted that will reap terribly bad and destructive fruit. Okay, it's the same thing with a society.
Let's talk, and I got some clips to play for you in a moment that are pretty outrageous and pretty eye-opening, but let's just talk demographics for a moment, all right? The replacement rate of a society is roughly 2.1 children for every childbearing woman. So on average, childbearing years are from 18 to 44. The most common child bearing years from 18 to 44. During that period, on average for every woman, you need roughly 2.1 children to replace the society.
So what do you mean to replace? Well, who cares for the older people as they get older? Take our social security system. Someone pays into it now, right? We're paying into it on a certain level, but a generation before has been paying into it so that as we get older, now there can be support.
Who cares for the older parents? There has to be a younger generation. When you dip below that, the society begins to die.
So take a society like Japan. It has been an aging society for decades now. Research this for yourself. There are more adult diapers made every single year, more adult diapers manufactured every single year in Japan than children's diapers.
Check it out. It's been for years now. And not just in Japan, but in other countries as well. And you think, you know, European countries and yes, they're big families.
No, no. In many cases, the big families are the Islamic families and the secular Europeans are the small families. So you have, for example, from Italy to Spain to Greece, the replacement rate way under where it needs to be.
Russia, way under where it needs to be. China, after the horrific one child policy, so no more than one child per family. And because boys are still preferred in that society. So women would not just abort baby girls, but even practice infanticide with a girl that was born because if you only have one kid, you want a boy, you want a boy.
Right. So this cultural social madness going on now, the society is dying. Well, it's got like one point three billion, one point four billion people, but it does not have adequate replacement rate, which means the generation gets older without adequate support. It begins to die out. And now you even have this social imbalance with a lot more men than women or not.
I mean, not 60 percent to 40 percent, but it could be like 53 or 54 percent or 45, 46 percent. And now you have this ongoing imbalance. It creates a massive crisis. So you sow seeds today, you sow seeds today and you will reap the fruit maybe tomorrow, maybe 10 years later, maybe 100 years later. That is the reality. And that's where we're at in America today. So take the United Methodist Church. For many years, the church in America has been heading in the wrong direction. It has been heading towards apostasy.
It has been heading towards, quote, progressive Christianity, which denies more and more the fundamentals of the faith. And then with that, it's going to shift. You just watch when a denomination goes what would be called progressive or liberal. You will see it shift on three values.
Always you just watch. It's like clockwork. It will shift its views on abortion. I'm talking about a denomination, a group, an organization that was once very, very strongly pro life. They shift and they become pro abortion.
They were strong on sexuality and morality. Now they switch over to same sex, quote, marriage is fine. Ordaining lesbian gay clergy is fine. And you'll see them shift on Israel to the point of being supporters of Israel, to becoming so pro Palestinian that actually become anti Israel. You will see it happen like clockwork. It's happened in United Methodist Church.
Before we connect with Gary, now that we have him on the line, I just want to play a clip for you. As the United Methodist Church has now broken into two factions, which should have happened a long time ago. For years, I've said it's got to happen.
It's inevitable. So it's now broken into two factions worldwide. The strongest churches, the most robust Methodist churches worldwide are conservative, be it in Africa, be in Russia.
They are conservative and they are the ones that that push back against the whole United Methodist Church going liberal, quote, progressive, going into apostasy in America. There's a split. The split had to happen. It was inevitable. And you just watch if those that are conservative will stay true to biblical values and maintain a real relationship with the Lord.
If they will do that, they will grow and thrive. And you watch and see what happens to the rest of the denomination, which has gone apostate. But this is from their recent convention where they officially said that we will now bless and welcome fully same sex, quote, marriages, and will ordain gay and lesbian clergy. All right, let's just listen to the way some of the people introduce themselves. Becca Gural, clergy, New England Annual Conference, she, her, hers, queer white adult, I'm very sorry to do this. Deacon, Greater New Jersey, adult white male. Thank you, Bishop.
Good morning, friends. Cisgendered white lay male delegate from the Great Plains Conference. Go ahead. Clergy delegate from Minnesota, white female gay adult with pronouns she and her. White male straight adult clergy, black woman, white adult female African American clergywoman pronouns she, her white non-binary person. And my pronouns are they them. She her I am a Latinx, lay young adult lay young adult cisgender male non-binary white. I'm still I'm 34.
I'm very confused on if I'm an adult or young adult and a person living with disability. I think I agree with her. So if you will pull if you will pull out my pronouns are they them. I think I forgot to state that when I introduced myself, I apologize.
Okay. That's not a spoof. That's not a satire. That's not actors saying that those are real people for whom Jesus died.
It breaks my heart to hear that. At the same time, it is spiritual madness. It is spiritual madness. It is moral madness. It is societal confusion.
You watch where this goes. Oh, it will result in people who feel outcast, some of them feeling welcome, but they will not meet the transforming love they need. They will not encounter God the way they need to encounter him.
They will not be impacted by the truth of the gospel. It will not happen. So, friends, it is wake up time for America. Once again, the alarm has been sounding for decades. We must hear it now.
We come back. I'm going to speak with my guest, Gary Ingram. He can speak to these issues firsthand. And he's written a book that will help him bless many.
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Tell them Dr. Brown sent you. Alright, without further ado, Gary, welcome to the Line of Fire. Glad we were able to connect.
Thank you, Dr. Brown. Yes, so Gary, you were on just listening as I was talking about what's happening in the culture, society around us. Why is this topic of special interest to you personally? Well, it's a great interest to me because I grew up in the church and yet developed same-sex attraction and was exposed to early sexualization and sexual abuse. And so these topics, just sexual brokenness in general, heterosexual sexual brokenness in the church is a massive issue.
So we're highly concerned about that. But my wife and I both also come out of the LGBT community and we know the church can do a far better job of loving well. And loving well does not mean high-fiving all the things that we desire.
It means agreeing with scripture and really walking with people in both grace and truth. So, simple question, is there such a thing as ex-gay? So, well, there certainly are many, many people, countless numbers of people that have left the LGBT community to follow Christ. I mean, if that's what someone would consider ex-gay, that's fine. What I oftentimes say is my wife and I and the hundreds and hundreds of people we know personally still deal with some levels of same-sex attraction.
But it's interesting that that's the litmus test used by so many to determine whether or not there's been authentic change, but we don't apply that to any other area of life. Of course, people can still struggle with temptation, but it's the ability to agree with the Lord and follow him with a whole and free heart, as opposed to the complete eradication of temptation. So I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding about what ex-gay really means, but certainly I would consider myself to have been once a part of that community, and now no longer. My identity is exclusively rooted in my relationship with Jesus Christ and the fact I'm a man made in God's image.
Friends, the book by Gary Ingram, I-N-G-R-A-H-A-M, Am I Gay? Coming out of Cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus. If you have a question, a personal question, call in anonymously if that helps. 866-34-TRUTH. I'll be glad to take some calls. Gary would be glad to answer your questions.
866-348-7884. So let's go through your own story and in terms of what role sexual abuse had in your own life, in terms of shaping your desires, and as far as you know, what role that has in the lives of others who've been abused. Well, it certainly is not determinative. It doesn't make anybody gay, certainly sexual abuse, but the longer that abuse goes on for and the closer that the person is that the abuser or the or the more that that person should be in a caretaking role, I think the more definitely the more damage the more impact it has on an individual, whether that translates into a response of asexuality. I want anything to do with sex or any of those things, whether heterosexual or homosexual, or there's a tendency toward developing same-sex attraction. SSA, same-sex attraction, is really a very multifaceted situation. For me, the sexual abuse, I think, played a big role, pornography played a big role, the lack of real connection with my own father and my older brothers and boys in general, the world of men in general, feeling like I was very much pushed out of that because I wasn't your typical tough, rough and tumble boy. And then also the over-identification with my mom, my sister, and girls in general throughout all of my developmental years. Those were a number of factors that played a role in the formation of what developed as same-sex attraction for me. And do you find many of those factors to be common factors in folks that you minister to and know, especially those that would identify as ex-gay as well?
Yeah, that's a great question and the answer to that is really yes. What's interesting, of course, is that all of us have very different stories from one another. Every story, everyone's story is unique and we don't want to make a cookie cutter assumption about anyone. However, there are oftentimes common themes that play themselves out in people's lives and then it's the scenario around that individual but also the way they relate to the circumstances around them that play a big role.
And yes, there are many common themes that we find in the vast majority of people we know that is identified at one time as trans or gay or bisexual. All right, so in your own journey, you grew up in cultural Christianity. How would you describe cultural Christianity and did you know it wasn't the real thing?
I had no idea it wasn't the real thing. I kept trying to kind of do the right thing, figuring out what's wrong with me. I knew that when I prayed the sinner's prayer and I somehow, it's something just didn't seem to take.
And of course, there was no one to unpack any of the stuff that happened to me at five or six years of age when I was introduced to hardcore porn and other boys' sexual behavior and much older boys. And so without having anyone to process that with, I just stuffed it, internalized it, but all the while going to church, all the while hearing all this truth. And so I think that cultural Christianity really takes, and what I mean by that is really it's a form of religion that doesn't have the authentic saving power of Christ empowered in it. My former pastor used to say often that he's concerned that so many people within the church have actually become inoculated to the gospel as opposed to getting the real deal. And I think where that happens for young people especially is when parents focus so much and others and leaders in the church focus so much around behavior management, which of course is part of parenting, but that's almost the exclusive, what this cultural Christianity forms when that's kind of the exclusive behavior rather than actually shepherding the heart of a child, both sons and daughters. I think that's the primary role of fathers that is oftentimes neglected within the church and it requires that shepherding the heart and a dad winning the heart of their sons and daughters into relationship with the Lord that really makes faith stick. Yeah, I'm actually looking at that quote from Pastor John Hawko in the American church. My fear is that many people have been inoculated to the gospel.
They think they have the real thing, but they're confusing a form of religion for authentic Christian faith. We've just got two minutes before the first break here, but at what point did you embrace a gay identity? When I left Bible college at 19 and then found my first gay bar four, five, six months later, it was pretty quick after that that I felt like I finally found my people. My life finally made sense to me and it was really euphoric to leave the church, to leave all the struggles behind and think that I had found freedom when in fact I had just, you know, stepped out of the frying pan and into the fire really, but didn't yet know it. So talk about that feeling of freedom, exhilaration. Now it makes sense. I finally found my people because many people mistake that for God's affirmation.
So just unpack that a little bit more. Well, when you are finally introduced to a life where you're just automatically known, where people aren't treating you like you're garbage or there's, you know, people aren't looking askance at you because of the way that you're acting or just kind of who you sort of embody and you realize, oh, there's all these other people around me that are kind of the same way. I don't have to keep struggling anymore. This must be who I am. God hasn't lifted the finger seemingly to help me up to this point. So this must be okay.
So there's a lot of ways we deceive ourselves and assume that God's lack of harsh judgment in the moment somehow equates to his approval, which couldn't be further from the truth. Yeah. All right. So we want to talk about that more. Gary, in 30 seconds, who is your book for?
Am I gay? It really is for strugglers, certainly, but also for pastors, counselors, people, moms and dads, I think that want to understand how to walk alongside of people who are wrestling and struggling. Yeah. All right, friends, we'll be right back with my guest, Gary Ingram, and we'll take some calls as well. He'll be happy to answer them as he does counseling and ministry. 866-348-7884.
Again, the title, Am I gay? Coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus. Gary Ingram, like the Billy Graham name within in front of it. We'll be right back. Hey, friends, Michael Brown here. My delight to serve as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. We are living in such urgent times today, friends, that all of us are in the line of fire. There's a target on your back.
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Donate monthly support. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I am speaking with Gary Ingram. His new book, Am I Gay? Coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus.
We'll take some calls shortly at 866-348-7884. Gary, let's just back up a little further. As someone raised in church, you go to Bible college and as a teenager, older teenager, when you first realized you were same-sex attracted, did you try to deny it? Did you try to fight it? What did you do with those feelings?
Yeah, absolutely. I think I did what most people did back in the day at least a number of years ago and I think oftentimes today is to, I mean, I immediately began to pray when I realized that this was something I was experiencing and I knew that this wasn't part of God's, you know, plan for me and yet over the course of time with praying night after night, week after week, month after month and feeling like the feelings were only intensifying, of course, certainly part of the intensifying of those feelings had to do with my own pornography use and that kind of thing as well, obviously, but I was becoming more and more hopeless and frustrated and just felt like God was nowhere to be found in terms of helping with these feelings. Did you, so once you then, you find a gay bar and then you found your own people and, okay, this is normal, this is okay, regular people, I can be who I am, I don't have to fight this. Did you then try to integrate that with your faith?
Not for a while. For a while, I just, I really wanted to find, you know, Mr. Right and settle down and just kind of spend, you know, sort of white picket fences with my vision and, but that, I oftentimes say that ship sailed within, you know, days or weeks after coming out to my first gay bar and experiencing this ridiculously fast revolving door of so-called relationships or sexual experiences with other guys. And so before long, I couldn't count how many different guys I had been with and it wasn't because I wanted to be promiscuous, it was because I was getting dumped and felt worse than I did before that, you know, I started this relationship or what I thought was one and so I'm jumping back into another one and that cycle just kept happening, you know, over and over again. And so, yeah, that was incredibly wearing and exhausting and before long I began to feel like I'm in a couple years in, like this isn't what I signed up for. Something is terribly wrong.
This is anything but gay. All right, so how do you now reconnect with God and then how does God factor into your life in that next step? Well, and you'd asked about trying to kind of blend those two worlds and I did do that for a period of time and I went back to the scriptures and thought surely there's got to be a loophole somewhere. Somebody has to have interpreted this all wrong or, you know, the modern day understanding has to be wrong and so going back and looking at the several passages in the Old Testament and settled in the New Testament and quite frankly not only that but also the fact that there's not a single positive reference in all of scripture to God blessing same-sex unions and then on top of that you have Jesus in Matthew 19 only affirming two genders and only affirming a man and a woman as part of God's design for marriage. So all of that coupled together frankly it was that was at the time bad news to me but it was good news because ultimately it led in part to my surrender and coming into right relationship with God and rather than continuing to try to make God into my own image which I knew was not going to lead to anything of benefit to me, I began to yield myself to his call and his purpose and eventually at the age of 23 after being spent and feeling like my soul was decaying which I think is a reflection of what Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 6 18 I came to genuine faith on the side of an interstate of all places bawling my eyes out and acknowledging God I made a wreck of my life and I don't know if you even what was left of me but if you do you can have it boom and that kind of ends my book that you mentioned it ends the story there of coming to genuine faith in Christ and giving my life to him. At any point did you try to go to a so-called progressive church or gay affirming church or even a gay church did you did you try that? Well there wouldn't have been many of them in my area but okay so no I I didn't I wouldn't have even known to to kind of pursue that life thankfully. Yeah all right so you you you now come to the Lord in a real way really now encountering him as opposed to just cultural Christianity in which you're raised was this something that was now a major issue same-sex attraction or is that back burner for a little while where you just came to know the Lord how did these things process in your own life? Yeah there was such a honeymoon period when I genuinely gave my life to Christ and all of a sudden all this truth you know stacks of memory verses that I had memorized and trying to battle with these issues and and not even realizing I was I was a religious kid that had a lot of knowledge but I did not have I was not transformed I was not not yet a new creation in Christ and I didn't have the Holy Spirit living within me and so all of that changed in an instant and my view of sin my view of my hunger and desire for God that was coming out of a heart's desire not out of you know having to do something to try to make myself right all of that shifted and changed and there was a long honeymoon period in that in this deepening of relationship with God and then I did get involved in a number of months later at the church I started going to I did get involved with beginning to become a friend with and then began dating a young woman shared my whole story with her even before we started dating and and she shared her life with me and and we wound up getting married now that is not who I'm married to today after several years of marriage she did not feel like I mean she just felt like she was no longer in love and there wasn't sexual impropriety on my part or hers but that was a decision that that she would not turn back from the divorce and so I was really miserable that that and angry with God in my mind for not doing or to heal our marriage and I went back into the LGBT world about a year and a half after the divorce just searching for something again angry with God but it was a whole different experience because now I'm a new creation living like my old self I'm I have the Holy Spirit within who's not just letting me go and and and without a fight and so there was a battle like I'd never experienced the first time around and thankfully the Lord you know in his mercy and grace won that but it was really through a church that he brought me to this kind of teaching hospital church I oftentimes refer to it as that that I found deep and genuine relationship and God did rescued my life at the church and I'm forever grateful how many years ago was that for the the the final new start I probably I was actually about maybe mid-30s so I'm 58 now so in my mid-30s or late 30s actually the Lord brought me to this church that I they helped me tremendously overcome a lot of addiction pray through a lot of junk in my life spiritual warfare discipleship and I eventually wound up going on staff with that very same church they knew my whole story and went on staff with them and and and pastored there with that church for 12 years before starting the ministry that my wife and I now lead love a truth network right the book am I gay coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus Gary I love the fact that you're so honest straightforward about what happened I heard one gentleman who was asked the question he's ex-gay himself he said can you be gay and Christian he goes not for long so if you if you really encounter the Lord and are changed he's not just going to leave you there and you know friends maybe you used to be an alcoholic and you're set free you're no longer an alcoholic are you ever tempted to drink yeah here and there but you say no to it okay but you're you're former alcoholic but you mentioned the standard Gary to be ex-gay according to the critics means you can never ever for the rest of your life ever be tempted in any way whereas what you're saying is you said no to the temptation it doesn't dominate your life it doesn't define who you are you're happily married to a woman you're how long have you been married uh going on 17 years and our boys are 15 and almost 13 right right so you're talking about a whole life a life that's blessed to every everyone listening or watching are there things you're free from but every so often you've been tempted by or had to say no to does it impact your freedom though not at all so for those who have struggled with same-sex attraction it's like hey I've said no to it I'm a new creature in the Lord I'm living a new life every so often I can find myself tempted hey that's that's the human race for some it's not the case but for many it is the case that has nothing to do with your freedom don't listen to the lies all right let's let's grab a couple of calls Gary let's uh go to Sam Sam and Raleigh North Carolina welcome to the line of fire hey guys hey I appreciate your ministry and uh yeah I was gonna tell Gary I appreciated honesty too and um thanks Sam beat me to it yeah so um go ahead yeah so I I just the background on me I I I got cancelled a few years ago there was a big fallout with with all this stuff just with some family and um uh you know not attending pride and all that stuff my one one question that I had for you guys is um so we we support freedom of religion although we don't want anybody to follow anybody price obviously um but then my question is how is that different from not like not supporting not supporting gay marriage when you know obviously like biblically it's sinful and we don't want anybody to go down that road but um I don't know I just so to what freedom of religion versus uh versus um freedom of marriage I guess that makes sense got it yeah go go ahead Gary how would you respond to that in other words if if as a Christian you want to have freedom of religion and freedom of speech etc but we don't recognize the validity of same-sex quote marriage I even put it in scare quotes to this moment to remind us we don't are we being hypocritical there well the reality is that's a um conflated a two very I think conflated different ideas marriage is God's idea and so it's not the state's idea so for the state to come along and redefine what God designed which is also we know in Ephesians is a metaphor for Christ in the church there are a lot of reasons for for gay marriage not being something that Christians should be supporting or celebrating that doesn't mean that we can't love and care for and we should those that identify as LGBTQ or those that that you know may be in in unions together we don't have to support the union and we certainly do not have to support a marriage ceremony but we can still and should love individuals and treat them with grace and respect but that's that's the reason I can't support gay marriage is because that's God's idea not not a man-made idea and I want to honor his purpose and value uh for just uh establishing marriage in the first place right and and to add to that it's no different than say under Roe v Wade where abortion is legal you know so we don't support it we don't agree with it right society can do what it does we're not physically stopping two two men or two women from going to a church building or to justice of the peace to get quote married we're not physically stopping them but we don't have to recognize the validity of it any more than if if polygamy became the the law of the land we wouldn't have to recognize its validity but it is based on our view of what's best for human thriving so in a democratic society democratic republic we vote accordingly we advocate accordingly and then we hold to our convictions that's part of our freedom of religion we'll be right back i'm paul brunette a board-certified doctor of holistic health and i want to introduce you to trivita's multi-collagen formula if there was ever a message i would want the world to hear it would be about the importance of supplementing the body with its most abundant protein known as collagen studies have shown multiple health benefits by supplementing with collagen trivita's multi-collagen formula does not have just one or two types of collagen or even three but five forms of collagen shown to support healthy tendons ligaments skin hair nails bones muscles gut lining and even the arteries and veins trivita did not stop there each of the five forms of collagen in trivita's multi-collagen formula are hydrolyzed which increases maximum absorption trivita's multi-collagen formula is an easy dissolving powder that can be added to your favorite beverages and even soups in your favorite recipes each serving of trivita's multi-collagen formula provides nine grams of protein is gluten-free gmo-free hormone-free and sourced from grass-fed bovine cage-free chickens and even wild-caught fish and you can rest assure that trivita's multi-collagen formula is manufactured right here in the united states of america to place your order for products to support your wellness goals call 1-800-771-5584 800-771-5584 or online at trivita.com as a trivita introductory offer use promo code brown25 and receive a 25% discount on the products of your choice that number again is 1-800-771-5584 800-771-5584 it's the line of fire with your host dr michael brown get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is dr michael brown thanks friends for joining us on the line of fire my guest gary engram his book am i gay uh gary uh tell us about the ministry that you and your wife do sure so melissa my wife is a licensed christian counselor and uh so that's one of the areas that she ministers in but she also uh co-founded and works with me at love and truth network and our reason for existing is really for pastors in the church we believe that rather than working with individuals who are struggling as much as we love to do that we believe that if we can work with pastors and frankly many pastors are dealing with their own pornography issues and sexual sin issues but if we can work with them and help them create environments in their churches that are both safe and transformational uh then then we believe we can impact many many more uh lives than just um ministering to strugglers themselves all right and and how do folks connect with your ministry sure so our website is simply loveandtruthnetwork.com and we do a weekly podcast i interview detransitioners and strugglers and people dealing with heterosexual porn issues and pastors and a wide range of things we also have our book out obviously and e-courses and i travel and speak and do weekend ministry events so and a lot of online training as well loveandtruthnetwork.com you know there are only so many of you and your wife and many people struggle in particular ways and they're looking for kind of specialized help wisdom counseling there are only so many of you you too but if you can multiply with other pastors and leaders give them the tools give them the wisdom point them in the right direction boy i mean every church needs to take advantage of this because every church has somebody struggling and and whether it's with porn whether it's the same sex attraction increasingly parents are shocked to find out their kids are coming out as as trans as trans are you finding an increasing number of detransitioners oh for sure i mean absolutely and people realizing that wow this was never the goal post keeps moving is what one detransitioner says that that she realized wow this is not going to take me where i wanted to go every time there's this feeling of euphoria as i step further into this process but then it eventually goes away and i need something else to have that same level of euphoria so yes we're definitely seeing people who are detransitioning and the tragedy of course is like chloe kohl and others is that they've they've allowed in their in their ignorance and and frankly lack of informed consent because of their age or the confusion they're they're allowing people to mutilate their bodies in ways that can never um abigail's friar's book right um irreversible damage really describes it well yeah it's it's one of the the the greatest crimes of of of our generation it's going to go as many say will go down as the worst case of of medical malpractice in in our nation's history i mean it makes lobotomies look look like a good thing right it's it's so tragic we're talking especially especially with children i mean it's just god help us all right let's let's uh grab some more calls uh aman in texas welcome to the line of fire thank you so much doctor thank you so much good to hear from you again and of course thank you gary for your testimony as well sir i wanted to ask i wanted to ask that for those that do that may struggle with safe sex temptation or same attraction and so on and so forth and for those that unfortunately may have it as more of a besetting sin or maybe besetting sin of pornography that kind of thing how do we minister or help them reach assurance of christian faith if they if that's one of their struggles you know with safe sex attraction maybe well god forbid they fall into a fornicating relationship or pornography that kind of thing how do we minister to them if they made a assumedly sincere profession of faith how do we minister to them go ahead gary well certainly so i think the the first step is that we have to we have to have our view on on the immediate needs that are before us but we also have have to have an eye on the future and i think the church needs to do a lot of work to prepare the soil of most churches to to be a place where people understand that oh yeah god called us to so much more than this there are so many christians struggling because we're all living the vast majority of christians the vast majority of of churches are full of people who are living double lives and and and i often say that christian leaders are unintentionally fostering double living without even realizing they're doing it and we're not being forthright and vulnerable we're not practicing james 5 16 which says confess your sins to one another and pray for each other that you might be healed and so that we need to be practicing that more and we need to be building our churches and shifting not just bringing good programs into our churches but recognizing that so many times we're bringing good programs into a broken environment where people don't really know one another so that's huge and the more that we do that the more that people who are struggling can understand that there's a place for me here and i don't need to be stuck or continue to be stuck because i hear testimony upon testimony of people whose lives are being changed and transformed and uh and and also i think that so much that connects with sexual brokenness is about relational deprivation and the more that we are isolated from one another the more that we're together in a crowd that don't know one another it still leaves a deep relational deprivation in our hearts that needs to be filled by a genuine fellowship and genuine authentic body of of christ yeah and let me let me ask you to speak to one more thing gary what about you mentioned early on finding your identity in jesus and it's part of your your book am i gay what is how does that change everything well that's a great question because the the reality is i think it's one of the reasons why there's such an emphasis on this need to embrace an identity within the lgbt world because identity is everything our sense of identity whether it's true or not true our sense of identity if we believe this is truly who we are then that either that either puts a lid over us for example the side b celibate gay christianity perspective is i think that's that's one of the most confusing perspectives out there that oh i need to embrace this idea that i'm gay or trans or queer or whatever but i can't act on it and so um you you wind up building this foundation that is completely faulty and you're trying to follow christ and trying to um uh to to live in a way that is righteous and and you're becoming more and more sanctified over time hopefully that's our desire but yet when we attach our identity to something that if we were to act on would be sin that is completely counter-intuitive and counterproductive to that overall uh journey but if we know that i'm a man made in god's image and i'm a i am a son of god through jesus christ that those are my my identities if we know that then really that frees us to live into this broader spectrum and this broader understanding of what does it mean to be a man made in god's image how do i get to live that out now as a christ follower in a way that i never could before it's it's freeing and the enemy wants to bind us with these false identities yeah great great answers thank you for the question and and the call uh much appreciated yeah go ahead go ahead if i'm a good doctor um one of the most interesting things i like what gary said there that's something i also have have learned in my own walk with the lord is the idea that identifying with christ and understanding the freedom that we really do have in him is it does help us to recover from our sexual brokenness it does help us to have that core identity and understand what it means to be saved yes um so if i finally ask one last question then i'll get off i don't want to block i don't want to block anyone go ahead but by all means but there's nothing else for those who are struggling if they were to if they were to if they had that willingness to trust in christ and not trust in that old identity will we say that that's evidence of them being saved or about to be saved if that makes any sense if they have that willingness to say okay i really do need christ you know what would be your response to that well i think that's the beginning certainly of of this journey toward christ is this recognition that i need christ and that i i also i think people can come to the lord in a lot of um without all their doctrine neatly put in place i mean frankly i think that's how most of us come to the lord but but there's an openness there's not an intentional okay i'll take you a savior but you're not lord of my life there's not this intentional i'm going to carve out this whole aspect of my life and you're not going to have anything to do with that but it's it's this this giving ourselves over to him and then learning and unfolding and and good teaching and preaching and and discipleship oh this is this is more the fullness of what it means my former pastor again used to say yes lord what's the question i mean i think no matter um where we are in our christian journey that that that is a um a posture of a disciple which is lord i don't know yet all that you're calling me to or how to walk necessarily in total freedom but but i desire that and i'm leaning into that with you all right hey thank you for the call and uh hang on let me just do one thing here okay so no that's not it pushing the wrong the wrong button oh no come on how did that happen gary i pushed the button and i lost gary okay we've only got a minute and a half left so truth just as let gary know my profound apologies there um i was going to take the rest of the the show to do this go to love and truth network friends go to love and truth network if you're struggling yourself or if you're a pastor leader and want to help others or if you have a friend or family member who is who is struggling it is love and truthnetwork.com i'm looking at it right now and right on the home page you see resources for church leaders resources for strugglers so that you put your name on that and resources for friends and family and what's important to understand is if you say i'm a gay christian now you define yourself with relation to your attractions your desires you have already taken a big step in the wrong direction even if you're doing it in the name of humility or trying to help others to relate you are now tempering qualifying who you are in the lord in a negative way it's not like saying i'm an american believer or you know i'm a chinese from a cult you know we're talking about something of our actual identity of our being who we are friends that's not who you are anymore if you are in jesus the book am i gay by gary and graham
