From the War on Police to Apologetics

So is there a war by the police on certain communities, or is there a war on the police? Yeah. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. That's 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I was just sent a link to a disturbing video.

It's on Facebook. It's been viewed millions of times. We'll post it a little bit later today on the Ask Dr. Brown Facebook page. And It's a video test was done where a white man In a state where you can openly carry a weapon, he is walking down the street, and he's got a big gun.

uh over shoulder and a white police officer comes up to him And asked him why he's carrying it. And he said, Well, I can. I'm legal and licensed, you know, open carry. And he said, Any particular reason you're carrying it? No, just have the right to do it.

Now, I mean, that's a whole other question in terms of that scenario. But he's allowed to go on his way. Identical scenario with a black man carrying a gun, exact same scenario, except this time you end up on his face for minutes. He's surrounded by other officers. Other vehicles pull up.

He has to put his hands behind his back. The gun is taken from him. The only difference is one man was white, the other man was black. Is there something wrong in our communities? Is there targeting.

of black young men. Or is there a reason that police are acting like this and it's wise and it's cautious? This is an important subject, and we're going to take it up today right here on the line of fire. This is Michael Brown. Remember to call 866-342.

That's 866-342. Three, four, eight. Seven, eight, eight, four. Obviously These issues are in the news before us on a continual basis. There was a black man shot and killed in San Diego yesterday.

It turns out he was unarmed. Apparently, his sister is sitting there weeping and sobbing and saying, Why didn't you just tase him? What exactly was going on? Apparently, walking erratically through traffic, hands and pockets. What was going on?

Why wasn't he tased? These are fair and important questions to ask. At the same time, I was reading earlier today a very touching account about a white cop drove 100 miles to assist a grieving 15-year-old black young man. And afterwards, the young man said, everybody knows how much I dislike cops, but I am truly grateful for this guy. He gave me hope.

Are the cops getting a bad rap? I'm going to speak with Jeff Rorta. He has a new book coming out, The War on Police. And we're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about the issues, and we'll take your calls as well.

As always, our goal is to be constructive. Our goal is to be redemptive. Our goal is to not just have heat, but also light.

So we'll be doing that with my guest shortly. And oh, let's just see. Is there any other news items? Yeah, yeah.

Well we'll play some clips for you too. Charlotte, North Carolina. There is a Young girl and her plea to the Charlotte City Council. We are black people, and we shouldn't have to feel. like this.

So why Are blacks in Charlotte feeling unsafe, feeling that their lives could be threatened? Is there a good reason for it? What happens when police pull back of the so-called Ferguson effect, where they don't engage as much? Where they are not as aggressive in their tactics, and then the crime rates spiral, the murder rates spiral, which then ends up hurting people even more. These are difficult issues, but we're going to talk through them in a constructive way, as always.

Number to call if you'd like to speak to my guest, 866-355. 3487884. I'm coming your way live. from Dallas, Texas, speaking at Gateway Church at the main campus tonight. On moral and cultural issues, we need hearts of compassion with backbones of steel.

Age the world O God of burning clean. Single flame. Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Sure. Welcome back, friends, to the Line of Fire broadcast. I am delighted to be with you, 866-348-7884.

Four. Uh, Joey Graham clip number eight. This is Ziana Oliphant. She is speaking to the Charlotte. City Council.

By the way, this is the very same Charlotte City Council that caused all the trouble in North Carolina by passing a radical bill that effectively rendered public bathrooms and locker rooms gender neutral. And then HB2 by North Carolina was put in motion to set things back after that. But putting that aside, that's no reflection on the young lady speaking. Listen to what Zianna has to say. I come here today to talk about how I feel And I feel like that we are treated differently than other people.

I don't like how we're treated and Just because of our code doesn't mean anything to me. All right, that is a young black girl in the city of Charlotte talking about how she feels. She feels she's treated differently. Many Americans say, Yeah, that seems to be the case. unfair treatment by the police.

Is there another side to the story that we need to be sensitive to as well? How can we pursue justice together? My guest, Jeff Reuter, has a brand new book, The War on Police. Jeff, welcome to the line of fire. Glad to be on Doc.

Uh your book speaks about the war On police. As opposed to the war by police. What's your perspective? What do you think we're missing in the narrative today?

Well, I'm glad you used the word narrative because I think that's what we have here is a false narrative. Um you know, I'm I'm here in St. Louis You know, we live through the uh pitched riding in in Ferguson and the city of St. Louis following The shooting death of Michael Brown by police officer Darren Wilson. And what we saw there was open warfare in the streets against police officers, shots being fired at them every single night.

bullet cocktails being thrown at them. rioting and looting and other, um social upheaval. And it Always a result of a lie, this hands-up don't shoot myth. And uh you know I think it that that lie was fashioned to perpetuate A uh uh uh narrative against law enforcement that uh we're still seeing in places today. And Jeff, what's your own background in terms of how you come to write this book?

I was a cop for seventeen years, uh, five years as an undercover narcotics detective and finished my career as a a police chief in the in the St. Louis suburbs. Then I was elected to the Missouri House of Representatives. uh serve there a full eight year. That's the That's the total amount of time that you're allowed to serve because of term limits.

for almost the entire time I was there, I was the Ranking member of the Crime and Public Safety Committee. Worked briefly for uh the Department of Public Safety here in Missouri after I left office and I now am the uh spokesman and representative for About seventeen hundred. uh unionized police officers in Saint Louis City and Saint Louis County. All right, so from your own experience, Jeff, What did you see in terms of the motivation of police officers? What did you see in terms of the fairness of police officers?

Did you have concerns? by what you saw in terms of some some bad apples? What was your own experience? Yeah, well we certainly were not a perfect profession profession. profession has has people who are just not cut out to do the job.

Uh, but I would posit that if all the all the professions in the in the country. I mean Law enforcement is one of the most scrutinized professions and when you look at the numbers You know, but three quarters of a million police officers across the country Each of them having dozens of interactions every day with. witnesses and victims and suspects and other citizens and which amounts to millions of contacts every day. Yeah, the fact that that the mainstream media can only find A couple of a month. to uh to heap criticism on law enforcement over And that in those cases, uh almost invariably, even Eric Holder's Justice Department finds that the officers Acted properly.

So, I mean, I think that we can do better. I think we try every day to do better. We take all of these shootings and and other events that have bad outcomes. And we Look at them and constantly reevaluate our tactics and our methods and try to. have happier outcomes.

But I mean I I'd I don't think that there's a profession in the in the nation that works harder Uh to to now. hold their duty sacred. All right, so Jeff, why do you think then that so many black Americans have a different perception of the police. I've had many callers to my show. God-fearing Christians.

People who respect authority, people who have no criminal record in their entire lives. Talk about being pulled over for no good reason, being talked to certain ways, the certain fundamental mistrust. that there seems to be in the inner city across the board with color, but in the inner city and often especially in black America towards the police, where do you think that comes from?

Well, I think it comes from our leaders largely. I mean, from President Obama down telling people that they ought to be mad about Uh what's happening across the country and distrustful law enforcement. But I mean, if you think about it, I mean, how who do you know that's ever gotten pulled over and gotten a ticket or a warning from law enforcement and really thought they were guilty. I mean, The courts are full of people who think that they weren't going twelve miles an hour or speed limit or that they didn't have A burnt-out taillight, or whatever the case may be, and um. when when it's a white person, they just assume that Um you know, that they got, you know, justly charged or that Um, you know.

whatever the case may be, but When it's a person of color, um the instant Assumption is that It was based on race. Oh, when What we know from What we know from sort of the the the blind study that happens on on the streets every day, which is When you look at the numbers of of police stops where law enforcement can't detect the the color of the person before they stop them. That that there's no racial profiling going on that there Did they stop? uh people at the same rate whether they can see their their skin color before they stop 'em or or not.

So I I mean, I think that that tells you that there's something else going on that maybe we ought to have a conversation about All right, and friends, if you're listening and you take exception to what this former policeman with 17 years of experience is saying, by all means give us a call, 866-348-7884. Our goal is to advance truth. Our goal is to stand together for justice. Our goal is to do what's right. Jeff, the Ferguson effect.

What is that?

Well, I think it is, um Not just happening here in Ferguson. I think it's happening across the country, and it is This combination of of uh police officers being more reluctant to do their job, what we call deplecing. and criminals being emboldened by the the current climate. Um to to crimes of opportunity or crimes of mayhem. Um and you know, it i as these two collide because of what we've seen in Ferguson, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Chicago.

and elsewhere you you see this Um and I don't think cops.

Okay. you know, crossing their arms and holding their breath and saying, I'm not going to do my job anymore. I think it's just human nature that when you're under attack that you pull back and that there's this natural reluctance to Oh but proactive in enforcing the crime as as you normally would be. And then when you do see this um air of lawlessness that um allows for the sort of behavior we've seen in some of these cities where the the violence and the murder is just out of control. Um, you know, it's it's sort of a yin and yang, uh, and it's not a good one.

I mean, it Uh you know, I'll point out that uh while Black Lives Matter say they care about people of color, their approach to um policing in America has Cause more African Americans lose their lives because were just not as successful as we were a couple of years ago at uh disrupting violent crime in inner cities. Got it.

So the very desire to protect life. The protest against uh perceived police brutality ends up in more lives Being taken. Here's what I want to do, Jeff. I've for years now cultivated honest discussion with my listeners, and I've learned a lot from them as we interact.

So I want to give them a direct opportunity to interact with you, police officer with 17 years experience.

So here's what we're going to do. Uh I want to start with Leon and Richmond. We've got a bunch of other callers I want to get to. Jeff Rauder has written a book, The War on Police. He talks about what's called the Ferguson effect and wants to talk about how to make America safe again.

And we're going to get a wide range of opinions here.

So, again, the book. Jeff Reuter, R-O-O-R-D-A. to Warong Police. Your calls interact with my guests when we come back. Change the world.

Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Of burning. Those lyrics reflect hostility towards the police. and some parts of America as it merited Is there an unfair war on police? Is the war on police causing America to be less?

safe. That's what my guest, Jeff Roer, says that there is a war on police. His book by that very title, Jeff with 17 years in police experience.

So, Jeff, let's interact with some callers, and this will be constructive and interesting. We'll start in Richmond, Virginia. Leon, welcome to the line of fire. Uh hello, Doctor Brown. Hello, sir.

Can you hear me? Yes, loud and clear.

Okay, good. Um My question for your guest. This now we know this been going on forever. Why would he bring up Obama as the cause of um uh what's going on. I actually think it's cell phones.

Now that everybody has a cell phone and they can take pictures. And um And to be honest, If he would have said when you asked him about about that, uh policeman people should have said, you know, the um Are certain percentage of propriety It's like that. You know, a certain percentage of police officers is going to be like that. And the main problem is the police take up. How about the guy in Chicago?

when they just roll up on them, shot them, And then when they the fan was out. They show what happened. But then they read the write-ups of all those policemen that was round there. And they all lie. Just to cover for him.

So, if they didn't have that them, it never came up. And I think he just, um I don't put any creativity to what he's saying because Is he just, um It's just not fair at all. And that's all I have to say. All right.

So, so, Jeff, you heard what Leon had to say. If you had said, hey, look, You got some bad cops out there, just like every segment of the society. You got some bad apples. And now that we're catching some of that on cell phone and things like that, it's causing rage across the country. Then Leon wouldn't have had an issue.

Leon said, hey, we've been experiencing this for years. How dare you blame it on Obama?

So he takes issue with that.

So, Jeff, Leon's on the phone. Go ahead. Hi Leon, hey, I don't disagree with you that Yeah. batting with the same percentages as every profession. You're right.

Every profession has their bad apples and I never when a police shooting happens or when when somebody loses their life at the hands of a police officer I never Say that the officer is absolutely guilty or not guilty. What I say, until we know more facts, until we've seen everything out there that there is to see is First, we ought to see that as quickly as possible. And second, that Uh once we we shouldn't pass judgment until we see it. And that's where I do fault as President. Uh I think that he has rushed to judgment on police officers.

Uh and you know. The Michael Brown case in Ferguson was a really good example of that. I think that President Obama and other black leaders are uniquely situated to wade into these crowds of people who are demanding answers, which is justifiable. and say I guarantee you that justice will be done in this case. Uh you know.

You're free to protest, you're free to Speak your mind, your free to demand answers. But don't don't burn down your own city. Don't Uh smash windows. Don't loot uh uh the stores serving your own community or burn them down Let's wait wait together for all the information and then as a country we'll make an assessment and hope that the court systems uh do what they're supposed to do. Yeah, uh all of that all of that's good.

Uh But my thing is when the when the guy down in in Charleston, South Carolina, Shut those people. uh when when the police picked him up, there wasn't a shot fired. Matter of fact, they took him to Somewhere to get something to eat. And he killed nine black people in a church. And the guy, the chair is that uh uh just Put out the bombs.

Right. They brought him in. He wasn't dead. But a black guy with a broken taillight in South Carolina can get out and run and the guy shoot him in the back. You didn't know that they had a a camera on them.

And the first thing he said in his life was He felt his life was in jeopardy. I mean, if you can't see that, if you can't see what's going on, if you just gotta make excuses. Yeah. That's the way it's going to be. Yeah, that's the Walter Scott case, and I in no way excuse that officer.

first thing that I said when I saw that video is is there just no way to reconcile what he he said with that video in no way to justify what he did with that video. Um so you that's a perfect example of of a case where th it it seems pretty now the guy will have his day in court of course, but it seems pretty clear that uh that He acted improperly and Cops do get it wrong, but remember. COPS also are under more oversight than any other profession with the exception possible exception of doctors and nurses. And They got authority to wear a gun and to shoot people. They should be under justice.

or more scrutiny. They that's the difference between gang bangers killing themselves in Chicago, and policemen shoot people. They have authority So they should be held by how a higher account. And and my argument is that they they are held to a higher authority. Police officers here in St.

Louis have a civil service commission a civilian review board, an internal affairs division, Force investigative unit. And every case uh is sent over to the the City Circuit Attorney. Review even when they think the officer acted justifiably. And very often, Those cases are sent to the FBI and the U.S. Attorney to to review.

I think that where they're doing it right, cops have got a lot of scrutiny and a lot of oversight. And what we find is that in a lot of these cases the cop acted properly and And that when they didn't, uh the the courts Get to justice. Hey, Leon, I want to get to some other callers, but of course, I appreciate you weighing in. These are discussions we must have and we will continue to have.

So, sir, thank you. for raising these important questions to my guest, Jeff Rorta. Again, his book, The War on Police. I want to get to a bunch more callers for my guest.

So if you can. Stay on the line. That would be great because I want to give you an opportunity to interact with Jeff. You have in the book A an exclusive interview with Darren Wilson. Who was the shooter of my namesake Michael Brown in Ferguson?

Without getting into the details of the interview, that's in the book. Uh very quickly, where is his life right now? Is is he able to live a normal life? Yeah, I wouldn't call it normal. I call it a sort of a salmon rushdie lifestyle.

He's under constant threat. But he's trying to get his life together. His wife is also a police officer in Ferguson. She's trying to get her uh life together. They're both moving forward.

Um but you know The interview is is one of only three interviews Darren has done. He did the other two with the New Yorker and with ABC News. And I think it's it's the best interview as far as showing the human side of Darren and understanding who he is as a as a man and as a as a person.

Alright. That's Jeff Reuter, the book, The War on Police. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. The police did it again, y'all. They shot another unarmed black person, as usual, and the lady is saying she called them for help not to kill her brother and they shot her brother.

All right, that was from San Diego, and you hear the perception. They did it again. If you run back to the OJ trial, the mistrust of the police was much higher. In the African-American community, than the broader white community? Is that because they're being manipulated by outside forces?

Is that because they've seen bad things and been mistreated? These are questions we have to ask. Phone lines are jammed. I want to get to your calls momentarily. But we've just got a few more minutes with my guest, Jeff Rorta, his book, The War on Police.

Jeff, two questions. One, if you think back to the OJ trial. What do you think? There was more suspicion of police. And two, I'm not an officer.

My son-in-law is serving as a chaplain now and spending time with officers and a police chaplain. But I'm not an officer. I don't claim to have any idea about what actually goes on. But two questions. One, why do you think there's more mistrust for the police system?

Law enforcement system in the African-American community than in the white community, just broadly speaking. And two, in cases like San Diego, why not just tase the guy? It turns out he was unarmed. So please, your responses. Yeah, I don't know much about that San Diego shooting yet.

I actually. Uh it told us back and forth with it. officer out there that uh wants to give me some more inside scoop on that one. But Um you know I don't know that it's so much about race as it is. Economic position.

I think that. Yeah. More distrust. of the police. Uh folks who are in economically challenged neighborhoods and let's face it, we got a con a problem in this country.

Blacks are disproportionately born into poverty and live in poverty and And there's more police in those neighborhoods. There's more Uh volatile police citizen interactions those those neighborhood so Maybe it is about race, but I don't I don't think it's completely about race. I think in in large part it's about uh economic um in in socioeconomic uh situations. Mm-hmm. As far as the larger question about tasing.

Is there a reason say say the uh the shooting in Tulsa. One of the officers went to tase the the man who was killed and the other officer, Shadman, is charged with manslaughter at the moment. And of course, she'll have her day in court. But how does that work with tasing versus shooting?

Well, you know, the there is a progression. There is a force continuum that goes from the officer's mere presence, which is a show of force. uh to um using a a deadly weapon. And there are Our steps. between their intermediate um and non-lethal uh means of um bringing a person to compliance But it is, you know, that is what they will examine closely in the Tulsa case: whether.

Um whether whether deadly force was justified. um whether a less than lethal option Was available and should have been used. But the less than least option is not always appropriate. uh based on what the suspect's doing and based on other things like proximity um in environmental conditions. If you're both standing on on a wet surface, you can't say I'm for instance.

If the wind's blowing at you, you can't uh mace somebody. If you're in a very small confined space like a car or a small room, you can't use mace. Um So those are considerations that The caps are are are going through in their head in split seconds, not even full seconds. in split seconds. What What weapon system do I deploy um what is appropriate in this situation.

That's why we trained so intensely is uh to make that sort of um Automatic. What weapon system I We are out of time in this segment, friends. We come back and going straight to your phone calls. My guest today, Jeff Rorta. R-O-O-R-D-A, his new book, The War on Police.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, my guest, Jeff, was able to stay on for a few more minutes.

But that was the limit of his time.

So I wanted to get the extra time with him. But I want to go straight back to you, our callers.

Now, please understand, Jeff won't be here to interact with you, but I want you to be able to get out your side of the story or what you want it to be heard.

So we go to T-Neck, New Jersey. Mark, welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Mark. Hi, how are you doing, Mr. Brown?

I'm well, thank you. Ah yeah, um I guess I'm a young black male and I live in a New York City area. And my experience with police is completely different. Like it um like I was reading recently that uh the Massachusetts Supreme Court just said that black men have a reason to fear of police interactions. that they're disproportionately targeted in Boston.

Bishop Boston. Where the glide? Population is, I believe, under Like a little bit of a market. Yeah, I'm here.

Okay, yeah, go ahead. Just I I didn't hear you for a second. Oh, see, no, I didn't I didn't say anything, I was that was the end of my point. Where is And in my own personal interaction with police that there's there's definitely a bias. Like rather to be racial or not black people definitely have a reason to be angry with police officers.

And I think it's a gross overstatement to say that There's a warrant police. when they have so much power compared to what they had like one hundred years ago. And it's like, I hate to remind people of this, but we just had the civil rights movement in the sixties. Like all that disgusting stuff that took place. that hatred just didn't disappear.

Like it's like we like to like it's like people like to say, Oh, that was fifty years ago But these people had kids. and their kids had kids and they're inbred with hatred. And it's it's systematic. And it's like people think like fifty years, like kumbaya, we all sat down and had peace. Jesus isn't back yet, so th I don't expect police officers to be One hundred percent.

But I expect people to be you know to take that seriously and say, Oh, you know, you know, these people like you can be the best Christ follower you are, you're still a fallen human being.

So, Mark, let me ask this because what you're saying is level-headed and Christ-centered. Uh is hatred. a right response to hatred. No. is not.

You have to understand that Like years and years and years of persecution. Like, when does m when does my love turn to hate. When is enough enough? Where do we draw the line at where it's enough? Yeah, yeah, well I I yeah, I would I would say this Mark Listen, the uh the fact that the moment I open the phones on this I'm going to get flooded with calls who disagree with my guest means my listeners know I've been fair in these areas.

You know what I'm saying? Otherwise, you wouldn't be listening and others wouldn't be listening to the broadcast if I was racist or if I was coming across in a biased way. These are honest discussions we've had as we've learned from each other. My concern in everything. Is that what we do does not make a problem worse?

In other words, we all agree. That if there is A shooting where the police officer reacts wrongly, takes an innocent life, reacts based on a stereotyping or whatever, then we want to stand against that and work against that. We all agree that when someone responds with violence and looting, that that's wrong. My concern, though. Is that there are people, Mark, on both sides of this, be they.

Right wing. Black, excuse me, right-wing, white-leaning. Or l uh left wing, black leaning, or however you want to put it. That are using these tensions and problems and issues. to stir up more unrest.

to rather than to help in a constructive way like a Dr. King did. and to call for a right response. Who are just cultivating an anger that's only going to create more unrest, which is then going to create more tension with police.

So I'm just looking to get facts out, to get truth out, to get both sides out. That's why I opened the phone lines for this very reason.

so people could interact with my guest and then to be redemptive in whatever we do. That's my concern, Mark.

Okay. and Irish plan, and you're you're very fair in your approach. Like I have no problem with your approach. It's just that I don't know, as a black person like Cool. police interactions, anger me 'cause that's something I do on a daily basis.

Like as a as a young black male, I don't deal with gang violence all the time, you know, probably 'cause I live in a nice neighborhood.

So, like, when I hear about Black Lives Matter, like, oh, how come black on black crime doesn't matter? There was no black on black crime really in the 60s.

Well yeah, you guys was systemically against us, killing us. Raping out women, and it was no justice. And it just seems like all that just disappeared. Like, oh, you know, well, it's a pat on the back, you know, no big deal. Yeah, Mark, that's a.

Listen, I understand that there are, there are certainly. parts of America. uh that that have strong racist attitudes The problem is, I want to address it on all sides, and I appreciate you recognizing my fairness in approaching things. Obviously, I can't be perfectly balanced, none of us can be, but I want to do the best I can. to be just And to be right, regardless of which side of something I fall on.

And what concerns me, when I see, for example, a radical activist mentality in Black Lives Matter and some of their goals are to disrupt the nuclear family. A queer activism, transgender activism, their words, when they're Israel bashers and things like that. I see a whole bunch of other social things and ideological things we did in there that are totally destructive. that are going to do more harm than good. I want to stand with those who are standing for justice in a holistic way, and there are plenty of parts of America that are not marked by racism, but I know that the answer to racism is not racism.

I know that. That hatred of of Blacks do not then get overcome by hatred of whites, which then gets overcome by hatred of Asians. No, no, it doesn't work like that. That was what Dr. King said: that hatred can't drive out hatred.

Darkness can't drive out darkness.

So let's stand with the forces of light. which of course bring everything into the light and expose The Darkness River is more thank you. For calling and sharing your heart. I appreciate it. Let's go to Denise in DC.

Thanks so much for holding, and welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, Yeah, I Perfect. Yeah, Denise, it's a little hard to hear you. Yes, hello? Hour.

I tell you what, stay right there. Stay right there. Howard is going to get you in a moment. and we'll try to figure out what is happening with your With your phone there. All right.

Let's go to another Denise in Boston. Welcome to the line of fire. Doctor Brown? Can you hear me, Steph? I can.

Okay, I'm calling. I haven't read the gentleman's book. But um I It's not objective and there is some bias there. And I will read the book.

However, I have had several run-ins with the police. And the thing about it is, I was stopped and accused of going through a red light when it was a car that whipped around me, same color but different cars. And that police officer walked over to me, and I happened to look down in my car because my leg was going numb. There was a B, and I'm allergic to these things. And I had a medical band on, which I showed him, and he just completely ignored me.

Now, according to professional police standards, that officer only and my medical condition should have preceded his accusation against me going through that red light. But what and I had a EpiPen in my pocketbook and I carry a federal shield, but my EpiPen has a trigger.

So I sat there waiting for him to address the medical issue. He sat shaved to his car and sat in there, took his time and wrote me a ticket and came back. I held up my band to show him I needed medical attention. He ignored me and got in his car. And I'm waiting for him to pull off so I can reach in my bag and get my Epicenter.

He threw his PA system, yelled at me and said, if you don't move that car, I'll give you another ticket. And I was I mean, I was Oh. I was just devastated.

So, Denise, let me just throw this out, okay? First, I. I'm sorry that you went through it. I'm glad that you didn't have a more serious incident medically that came out of it, but I hate to hear you went through that. Obviously.

Uh if there was an issue of a young black men who fit a certain description in a certain area. And you fit that description, so they pulled you over, but it wasn't you. That would be one thing, but that's not obviously who you are. You're a woman, and I imagine you're not 18 years old, so you wouldn't have fit a particular scripture.

So, in your mind, You were treated like this exclusively because of the the color of your skin. Absolutely. And not only that, I work with a lot of inner city kids here in Boston, and I've been in cars with them driving. And I mean, we may have been coming from a forum where they're filling out applications for college. and they get pulled over.

And uh The officer for no apparent reason, no tail likes to fail in the Uh and they would order them to get out of the car. And I'm going to say just a minute. I am a minister, and if you would allow me to pull my credentials, I'm not talking to you. Yeah. Now, let me just say this in fairness about the, I'm not talking to you.

My wife and I had that. When pulled over one time, I think I got a speeding ticket when we were driving to Texas, and when my wife went to say something, He made very clear he wasn't talking to her. But but Denise. Your call is on record. You are absolutely not the first.

to share these things. That's why we are opening the phone lines. Thank you for calling. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm in born race. Jolly. You know I never felt this way 'til now.

And I guess the I don't know what's written. It's a shame that. Our fathers and mothers are killed. And we can't even see them any more. It's a shame that we have to go to that graveyard.

And buried them. And we have fears. We shouldn't have tears. We need our fathers and mothers. To be by her side.

That's the voice of Siana Oliphant speaking to the Charlotte City Council. about police violence.

Someone might say Mm-hmm. Hang on. The reason for absence of mothers or fathers or others being killed is not police, it's violent crime in the community. and the reason for the absence of fathers is the breakdown of the family. Why make this a big deal?

When it's one Case of one officer, in this case, a black officer. shooting a black man. And who was apparently armed. And whose wife had, what, a year or two earlier, taken out a restraining order against him and talked about him carrying a gun? Why don't we look at the larger issues?

Some would say that. Is this girl being wrongly inflamed in her attitudes? Those are questions you have to ask. D uh would you agree? Never justifying wrong actions by a police officer.

That's not it. But as my previous guest said Well, if you've got millions of interactions with the public every day, 750,000 plus police officers interacting dozens of times with the public over the course of the day, so you've got multiplied millions of interactions. then the fact that here and there you have a problem come up. Yeah, it's wrong and let's address it. But let's not blow that out of proportion.

That's not the big issue. These are things to be discussed. We are taking your calls so that we can address these very issues. How in a holistic way. Let's go back to the phones in Chelsea, Massachusetts.

Jeff, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you very much, Mike. As far as these writers are concerned, the The name of the game is a national police force. That's what the Obamas That's what Obama wants, that's what Hillary wants. Once a national police force is implemented.

Uh the National Police were Well will will uh will phase out all local Yeah. And when that happens, We become the Soviet Union. become Nazi Germany pretty much because You see, local police are accountable to the people, they're local. A national police force will be accountable to the government. Abomination administration.

Obama said he wanted a national Security force equals the U.S. military. people don't realize what a national police force is. Wh when when when you say communist countries, They they have a national police force. Wh wh when you study fascistic countries they have a national police force.

All arms will be in the hands of the National Police Force. That's what's coming. Uh you see the solution to this racial rioting It's not to have have a national police for it. I mean, it's it's just as simple as that. Yeah uh Jeff, yeah, and I I I think I think for sure that we all agree with that.

When I say we all, I don't know anyone among us that's advocating for that or something where the government, in that sense, could just take over. But thank you for raising that concern, Jeff. I appreciate it. Let's try again to go to DC. Denise, are you there?

All right, Howard, doesn't look like we're going to be able to make that call. Please let our caller know. We go to Brother Lawrence in Clinton, Maryland. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Yes, hello.

Yes, you're on the air. Dr. Brown? Yes, sir. Yes, this is Brother Lance.

How are you today? I'm blessed, thank you. Good, enjoy your show. I want to comment on the uh gentleman who had the book. And we're talking pretty much to to the advantage of the police officers.

Yes, sir. And I'm a senior, and I've been having issues with police ever since I was in my teens.

So this is not really something new. But I do want to say that he seemed to be saying that the it's coincidental when they pull them over.

Well, I've had um uh officers and uh Those uh with rank Tell me directly that there are police officers that do racial profile and pull people over because they're black. Mm-hmm. And so I wanted to make sure that that's clear. And also, there are so many there's so many killings nowadays that it's almost as if that people say that racism is gone, but it is not gone. Racism is alive and well and it's very clear.

And if you have racism in our community and it's all in in all these other areas, why couldn't it be on the police force also? And if he's on the police force, then they're discriminating against people according to color. And so therefore, what he's saying is and I understand he's been he was a he was a police officer for quite a while, but and he wants to support his organization, and I have no problem with that. But we got to face the truth. Until we can face the truth of what's happening, we will never solve the problem.

As long as we continue to make excuses and avoid the truth, the problem will continue. And that's why it's continuing because we have not accepted the truth that the racism is alive and well, and we need to stomp it out and not call it something else or not try to avoid the real truth about it. All right, so sir. Thank you for calling. Again, these are the very voices that I want to hear and interact with on the air.

So let me throw out two things and tell me if you agree with these, okay?

Okay. One, Yes. I'll tell you what, you've said it, so I agree with you. Of course there's still racism and that means there's there's going to be racism on the police force as well. And and I think our guest said, yeah, there are problems.

He just thinks it's it's it's the bad apples are few. not the majority. But here's the other question. If you have in a particular area Let's say in one area you have some Asian American gangs, right? And these Asian kids are getting, you know, they're responsible for a lot of the crime in the area.

So when you are looking for a criminal, And you see a car with an Asian American young person driving by, that kid's got a better chance of being stopped just based on criminal profiling.

So, is that the case? There's no excuse for mistreatment, period, ever. or speaking to s another human being in a demeaning way, ever. Ever, and I don't doubt what your experience has been, especially the further back you go, of course, could have been even worse before. But could you understand a cop saying, yeah, I do, if I see a young black man and I'm looking for a young black man in a similar kind of vehicle, of course I'm going to pull him over because that's what I'm looking for.

It's not going to be it could have just as well been a Hispanic American or an Asian American. Do you understand that there's that element as well in terms of profile? I understand that and have been pulled over because of that element, but it was because of a car that looked like the car in the crime. And I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to say that there isn't any of that, but I don't think we need to put the emphasis on that because with all the killings that are going on, Uh and and some people uh on on on video it seems to be pretty obvious and they're still still getting off Without charges or without convictions. And it's just that because we're avoiding the truth, we're skipping it, we're acting like it's not there.

And that's just what the problem is. And as long as you do that, people are going to be angry and their anger is going to build and build. And sooner or later, pressure will bust the pipe. And the pipe is going to burst, and you're going to be out of control at that point. And that's what's happening.

We've got to be serious about this issue, and we've got to admit the truth about it. Yeah, hey, we're out of time. You get in. The last word today. My bottom line, we will pursue truth and righteousness and we'll do it together side by side right here.

We're going to talk apologetics with Dr. Norman Geisler. No. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, I just spent a very productive hour with a former police officer and with my callers as we continue to talk about the Cultural issues with police, with violence, with race, with riots in America. We switch subjects now. This is Michael Brown coming away live from. Dallas, Texas. Did I mention first hour I was live in Dallas?

Well, I am. Live in Dallas, Texas, getting ready to speak at Gateway Church tonight on moral and cultural issues. But I'll tell you more about that later. We're switching gears and we're talking again about apologetics. about defense of the faith.

With the upcoming annual Apologetics Conference right in Charlotte, North Carolina, from October 13th to 15th, we've had a number of special guests on. We've had Richard Land, Lee Strobel, others on. Today we have Dr. Norman Geisler. So we're going to have a great discussion.

If you have a question for Norman Geisler, If you have any type of question, apologetics question, biblical theological question of any kind whatsoever. The phone lines are open 866-36. Three, four, eight, seven, eight. 884. That is 866-34-TRUTH, the number to call.

And we'll talk about a wide range of things: the importance of Scripture, the importance of the reliability of scripture, the place of the defense of the faith in the church and in the world. And let me throw this out for you. Uh I don't know many people that came to faith exclusively through apologetics. In other words, they became convinced that the claims of Christianity/slash the Bible were true. based on which they then said Okay.

I will now give the rest of my life to Jesus. There is normally one other major step, which is coming to faith in him. Putting one's trust in the living God, turning from sin and asking for forgiveness. In that sense, apologetics is often. pre-evangelism.

In other words, it is part of proclaiming the gospel, but it is leading to the proclamation of the gospel. It is overcoming obstacles. It is removing barriers. It is answering questions so that someone will be willing to hear the rest of the Gospel message. At the same time, apologetics serves a very important purpose.

purpose. And that is not only for pre-evangelism, but also for the strengthening of the faith of believers. I first got involved in Jewish apologetics with the motivation of helping fellow believers, helping fellow Jewish believers who are bombarded with objections and arguments and rabbis raising valid questions. And they didn't always have good answers.

So my first reason for getting into apologetics was to answer the questions for the believers, and then secondly, to reach the non-believers. And that remains my heart to this day.

So many people get picked off, they lose their faith because of evolution. They lose their faith because they have a hostile college professor who attacks the Bible and they allege contradictions of the Bible. And on and on, it goes in many, many different ways.

So, if I can help a believer stay strong. If I can help a believer stay firm in the faith, If I can help a believer. Be confident that the word is true. Be confident. That God is faithful.

Be confident that we are not living in denial, that we are not closing our minds to science and facts, that we have integrity. That believer staying strong is just as important as a lost person coming to faith. And in fact, that believer staying strong can now help others stay strong so there is that healthy ripple effect. We'll be back with Dr. Norman Geisler and your questions for Dr.

Geisler. Angel World. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the broadcast today, 866-34Truth. Number to call, this is Michael Brown and my special guest, Dr. Norman Geisler, the author or editor of scores and scores and scores of books, major apologetics works, a world leader in the world of apologetics.

founder of several schools Teaching the word, teaching apologetics, teaching theology. I'm one of the speakers at the annual Seven Evangelical Seminary Conference, the Apologetics Conference taking place October 13th through 15th. I've got a bunch of questions for Dr. Geisler, but if you'd like to ask Dr. Geisler a question yourself, 866-34Truth, the number to call.

Dr. Geisler, welcome back to the line of fire. Uh great to be with you. How did you get involved in apologetics yourself? I was witnessing in the ghetto in Detroit, and the drunk staggered up to me.

And took the Bible out of my hand and said, I'm a graduate of Moody Institute Bible Toot. And you shouldn't be doing this. And he pointed to a verse, he said, read that. In the red-letter edition, Jesus said, Go and tell no man. He said, Now get out of here.

I I didn't know how to answer that and uh other people have tied me up and not Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and I decided either I gotta get answers or stop witnessing.

Now, I imagine that was quite a few years ago. You're past 80 now. Do you feel satisfied with all of the challenges that you have taken on? You have whole book, you know, massive encyclopedia of apologetics, things like that.

So the arguments from science, arguments from history, from archaeology, from theology, from cults, from other religions, attacks on the scripture. Do you feel intellectually and spiritually satisfied that there are answers for every question? Um, yes I do. I've spent uh sixty years now. uh doing it and uh I uh The list of questions has uh diminished from hundreds to a handful, and I'm sure that their answers were those too.

Interesting. And that also speaks of an intellectual integrity to say, yes, there are a handful of issues, questions that remain just we keep learning and growing with answers. What were some of the ones in your own journey That took the most time to really form solid, intellectually sound answers. probably the problem of evil, you know, if God's all powerful. He could destroy it if he's all good.

He would destroy it. was not destroyed, so how can there be an all good, all powerful God? And in short, how did you, or in long, you recall, how did you end up addressing that? Uh added a word to it that uh uh is needed to make it uh Okay. Valid.

Yet If God is all-powerful, He could Defeat evil. If he saw good, he would defeat evil, but evil is not. Yet defeated.

So it doesn't follow that there is no God. It just follows that it's not yet defeated and he will Defeated in the future, because if he's all-powerful, he can do it. If he's all good, he will do it. If it's not done, just hang up. Hang on, it's gonna happen.

Mm.

So add that one word yet changes everything, doesn't it? Yes, it does. Are things different today in terms of attacks on the faith than they were when you were a young man? They're basically the same, but you know, Paul Little wrote a book in which he listed the ten basic arguments most people could say. They are articulated differently and there are new books on them, but they're they're the same old arguments.

to just get recycled and and different different clothes and words. What about the atmosphere? Young people go off to college. There's a lot of hostility there. Let's say they're taking a class at University of North Carolina taught by Professor Bart Ehrman.

I debated him actually on the problem of suffering a few years ago. And he'll have a big class, a New Testament intro class, and a lot of Christian young people will come in there. And Dr. Ehrman's a great textual scholar of the New Testament. He's respected.

He's also a well-known agnostic. And he'll begin to throw around what appear to be contradictions in the Gospels, and suddenly faith is undermined. How do we help people like that? Because people come into that secular environment, suddenly their faith is undermined, and they don't know how to respond.

Well, two things. First of all, we've written a book. Uh-huh. Uh the big book of Bible difficulties, Genesis to Revelation. 800 of those alleged contradictions after sixty years of studying it and uh looking at eight eight hundred of them, I found zero.

zero contradictions. In the Bible. Secondly, they need to know about Bart Ehrman himself. He went to Moody Bible Institute. Trinity College.

Um Well one student asked him Um You missed here or Relationship with Jesus. And his he paused and He said. No, I miss uh Yeah.

some of the Christian friends I had, but I I can't say that I missed that.

Well, if I if my My wife I have been married to her for sixty years If uh He died it. You asked me, Do you miss your religion? and I say, No, I miss the family reunions, but I I can't say I miss her. You know one thing for sure, I didn't have one. If I had one I would have missed it.

Hmm. Fired airman needs to get saved. Got it.

Got it.

All right.

I appreciate that perspective. What are you going to be speaking on at the Apologetics Conference? And believe it or not, I was the one that came up with the uh theme. And I'm speaking on the theme, the defense never rests. I was going to write a book on it, but now they've stolen my title.

for the soccer so I I probably can't do it, but it's um It's a good title because the defense doesn't have a risk, and it doesn't risk because the attacks don't stop. And they'll continue to to the rapture, so we won't run out of them. Got it.

Let's take some calls from my guest. If you want to find out about the Apologetics Conference, go to SES. You can actually live stream from anywhere in the world. You can register to live stream. Let's take some questions for Dr.

Geisler. We'll start in Raleigh, North Carolina. Ben, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, thank you for having me. Hey, man.

Um so I am personally interested in pursuing apologetics. And um Yeah, I became interested after seeing a Bunch of videos on YouTube of a guy named Cliff Nettle who goes to college campuses and engages the students there. And does it in a very gentle, loving kind of way, in a way that I hadn't seen. Done.

So I've been pursuing it on my own time. A few things that Stop me. Right now, um one thing in particular is the idea of natural disasters being under God's sovereignty. And one thing in particular about that would be Earthquakes. Um if if these incidences occur because God is is actually causing them what was his original purpose in creating the tectonic plates?

I know that sounds like a question posed by an atheist or somebody trying to attack the faith. Actually, something that confuses me. A lot of people ask you. I have the answer right in my hand here. how Earth became HUMANITI'S HOME IMPROBABLE PLANET BY HUGHE ROSSS.

Is a PhD in Astrophysics. He's one of the top apologists in that field in the country. He'll be speaking at our conference. Come and meet him personally. And in this book, he shows.

Shows how all of these things, including earthquakes, Are necessary for this kind of world. For example, earthquakes bring up minerals. Which are necessary for life. Without them, life wouldn't be possible. Uh So there's a a whole book full of Answers on that, I I recommend you get it.

It just came out. Improbable planet by uh Hugh Ross.

So Dr. Gonza, just more broadly. Uh if if Someone refers to any natural disaster as an act of God, says it would be an insurance policy. Should we assume that hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes are acts of God and somehow God's judgment on a sinning world? Is it Satan trying to destroy as happened in the book of Job?

Or is it simply in the category of we don't know? It's an act of God, but it's a good act of God. I mean, there are bad acts. Uh a good action is a good act of God because it makes life possible. uh people don't realize and Hugh Ross uh is uh one of the most brilliant Uh minds that I have Been privileged to know, and he writes in this book and shows how.

This whole world was set up by God, and how these things we call natural disasters are part of His plan in preparing. The earth. for man and for life and ultimately for our own redemption.

Alright, so uh I think we ought to we assume that all these things that are inconvenient to us. and that we don't like. Yeah. bad but If you assume that, then you're going to have to assume a Uh the all the discipline of the Lord, and whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, is uh is a bad thing. When we know it's good, no suffering seemeth good for the present.

but it yields its perfect reward, the Bible says. Got it.

Dr. Geisler, thank you for the response. We've got more. Time for your questions. We'll be discussing them with my guest, Dr.

Norman Geisler. If you don't have at least a few of his books, he's written, I think, 80 plus. We'll get the exact number on the other side of the break. For the Apologetics Conference, go to SES.edu. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. My guest, Dr.

Norman Geisler, one of the co-founders of Southern Evangelical Seminary. Which hosts a massive annual apologetics conference. The 13th of October is all for women. And then the 14th, 15th, for everyone to find out more, go to ses.edu. Dr.

Geisler, I'm looking at a quote of yours that says: one should never tie his faith to how old the earth is. Could you explain that?

Well, you know, there are two major views held by Christians today. Uh the old earth, it says it's a billions of years old and younger that says it's thousands of years Um Nowhere does the Bible commit itself to how old the earth is. Uh-huh. So we should never uh commit herself There's something irrevocable. that the Bible doesn't commit itself to.

It says, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. It tells us there was a beginning that we're committed to. It tells us God. uh created everything that we're committed uh to, but it doesn't tell us how. Mm.

the earth is and for us to uh place our faith on something the Bible doesn't commit us to. You go to the first geology class And the teacher convinces you that the Earth is older than you were taught, you throw your whole faith out. That's that's really silly. Uh two. your faith out because Uh somebody told you showed you that the earth is older than you thought it was.

Now you you hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. What if someone, a young earth creationist, pressed you and said, but if you look at the genealogies in Genesis, if you look at the historical records, the earth can't be more than 10,000 years old.

So you're denying scripture if you posit that there could be an old earth. How do you respond?

Well, first of all, there are gaps in the genealogies in Genesis. Matthew 1.8 says Jorah begat Uzzias. If you look at First Chronicles three, eleven to fourteen, these are three generations.

So we know there are gaps. Uh in the genealogy, so it could be older than 4004 B B C. Secondly, there's a difference between uh a young earth and an old universe. Uh The universe could be old and the earth could be young. By that I mean the earth could be just Thousands of years they human race Uh while the universe Could be much older.

uh that that both of these are possible. Got it.

And Dr. Gotza, how many books now have you written or edited? Uh something Over a hundred, a hundred and two. Ah, all right.

Okay, I knew it was over 80, but I hadn't checked back in the last few years, so I must have missed a few. All right, let's get another caller. Alan in Kernersville, thanks for calling the line of fire. Hey, thanks so much for having me on. Sure thing.

So, Dr. Geinser, what I'd like to ask you is: do you hold to the biblical? view of the flood as being Global. Uh when do you think that happened? And What do you see as the best evidences that we have today that the flood occurred?

Well actually we've found the ark. It's right where God put it on Mount Arat. If you look on my website, Uh uh You can see the pictures of it. I know personally six people who have been inside. of the uh Uh all right.

All of the evidence people normally use for the glacial period is really. uh what happened during the uh flood, the glacial theory is It's not uh true and yeah, the early Yeah. I believe in that and We're going to have to get back uh to the uh the view that uh was held by the earliest Scientists there. And Dr. Geisley, what is your website?

It's um Ark. Apology.com A-R-K- Yeah. Apology does. Yeah. Yeah, we have a mutual friend who is one of those who did the investigation and went into what they believe was the Ark.

Obviously, there are more tests to be done, but you feel confident about this. Are you one to buy into a lot of conspiracy theories, sir? No, I don't. I don't hold any except uh satanic conspiracy that the devil is opposed to everything God, God. Yeah, the ultimate conspiracy there.

So you haven't been one that's endorsed lots of different art discoveries or things like that before? I haven't endorsed any. I've been skeptical of all of them for for thirty years now.

Some of my uh best friends and colleagues have held held these views and I've uh poo-pooed them for uh years. But uh People have Uh the ark is uh found. Where The Bible says It landed. Uh and there's there's a uh a wooden structure, an ancient wooden structure. Uh The size of the beautiful ark was three.

Story. I said, up on top of Mount Ararat. There's no way it could have been built up there, it either floated in. Uh As the Bible says, or it was built there, it's impossible, it's under a glacier. Uh now it has incredible evidence inside the ark as well as Outside, all of the world's civilizations have been traced back to to that uh location.

Uh it says the Bible says so. Uh And there there were testing things now. They've actually found uh Things on the arc battery that dates back to that time period. What time period would that be? That that would be about the the same time the Bible Says it is.

Third uh millennium, middle of the third millennium BC. And Dr. Geisler, we put our faith in what God has said in His Word, and then we have experienced the reality of forgiveness of sins and new life in Jesus. And we don't need the discovery of an arc. to believe that the flood actually happened.

But let's say there can be verification of this. and and scientific documentation that this in fact fits the description of the ark. What impact do you think that would have on skeptics or on the world in general? Skeptics would become more skeptical and Christians would become more convinced. That you're never going to convert everyone, but it would be a wonderful.

uh support of our faith. I think If if true, and I believe it is, It would be the greatest archaeological discovery in the history of mankind.

So it's worth looking at the evidence. We have a whole list of the evidence of why that's the arc. Another illusion of why it could not be a a hoax.

Some people said it's a hoax. It could not be that it's worth looking at. Yeah, and I I'll say this, when I saw the footage from the folks that had been there on one of the first investigations. I was stunned. And again, I'm just looking at it from a distance.

I haven't researched it as you have. I was simply looking at it. And even though. I I've been a believer. for decades and not question this, actually seeing it.

Brought home the reality of what happened. Whether it was the original, the real arc or not, suddenly. Looking at this, I thought, oh my god, there really was a flood. I've always believed it. I never questioned it, but there was something that hit with greater impact because of it.

Although it does help encourage your faith, it's like any archaeology discovery. They've discovered things about the life of Christ, including uh things that relate to his His tomb and the and other things. And uh once you go into um of the land of Israel and start Uh digging around. Uh you dig up stuff uh The connection. This is real.

Yeah, it is. It's extraordinary. Find out more about the Apologetics Conference. SES.edu. That's been my guest, Dr.

Norman Goisler. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I want to take five more minutes with. Dr. Norman Geisler, who has joined me.

On the broadcast today. I know, Dr. Geisler, you've got to go. We've got some brand new listeners coming in. And I want to take advantage of these last few minutes that we have with you.

So, Dr. Geisler, let's grab another call. This is Michael in Clemens, North Carolina. Your question for Dr. Geisler.

Down to the ashlord. the term? Apologetic. Yeah. In our current Yeah.

Sounds a lot like someone's apologizing for something. I know. It's the same. Uh it it comes from the Greek word Apologia. which is in 1 Peter 3.15.

It says, Set apart the Lord God in your heart and be ready. Always. To give an answer of the reason and hope that's in you. And it's the word for giving the defense. For your faith.

Thank you very much. Yeah, and Michael, if you'll look. In the New Testament, if you're able to check out that word apologia, if you look through, you'll see it's used in different contexts. Paul, for example, in Philippians 1, talking about the defense of the faith, or in the book of Acts, in a legal trial, I'm going to offer my defense.

So this is our answer. This is our response. This is our defense. Michael, thank you for asking. Many have asked the same thing.

I don't need to apologize for my faith.

So we're not apologizing. I've never talked to you about this, Dr. Geisler, but what do you think of the Shroud of Turin? Uh I'm sceptical. Because Yeah.

Uh because Uh there have been so many frauds. Uh so many fakes, so many uh Uh these all have they've reconstructed uh things and uh Uh if you look into the Catholic relic uh thing, you know, they had more wood Uh from the cross then you need to build a cathedral. more milk of berry than you have for the uh serve a nursery. I mean, I I just am sceptical of it. And there's no there's nothing wrong with being Scottish Levin.

We don't need it. It's not part of the evidence of Christianity. It doesn't add anything to what we have.

So I Uh I just don't want to Any uh And then That's a place we expose. As a fraud. Got it.

Last question for you. There are people today. That talk about bibliology and we don't worship a book, and Paul said the letter kills. What are they getting wrong, and what's so dangerous about that mindset?

Well uh You know, first of all, what are they getting right? They're getting right that we don't worship. Uh book. And it it would be idolatry to worship a book. And we have people who think the King James Bible was let down from heaven on a string.

You know, it's good enough for Paul, it's good enough for us.

So we certainly want to debunk all of that. On the other hand, uh they're throwing the baby out with the bath water because wh while we don't worship the Bible, the Bible is God's Word. Jesus said the scriptures cannot be broken. They're unbreakable. In John 10, thirty four and thirty five.

And in Matthew in the Sermon on the Mount, he said it's imperishable, heaven and earth will Pass away.

So it is the word of God forever. settled in the heavens and this is Uh unbreakable and then Aaron And even though we uh Yeah. Uh we do uh honor it and respect it as God's infallible word. And what do you think people will gain by attending the Apologetics Conference? I think uh Lothargain for sure.

Um is inspiration. Uh to different Yeah. The Christian faith, the other the Game. Uh they'll gain the Motivation to go in. Witness for Christ.

Because a lot of people don't witness because They don't know what to say if people ask them questions.

Well, There are answers.

So come and get them. Amen. There are answers. Come and get them. Go to scs.edu to find out more.

The conference is just in two weeks. Dr. Guy, so thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, Dr. Brown.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We all know of God.

Satan. Angels and demons. But is there more to the unseen realm than that? Scripture alludes to a divine counsel, sons of God. What is the unseen realm?

Could understanding it bring light to confusing passages? Could it clarify some unclear concepts in the Bible? and even help us understand Jesus' mission better. These questions fueled a 15-year journey into researching what the ancient Israelites believed about the unseen realm. Yeah, that is quite a trailer.

Quite a promo for the book by Dr. Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm. You'll find it a fascinating read. Here and there you're gonna Challenge or point or a scripture, you will find it a fascinating, eye-opening read. When you get it, you'll get it with the exclusive one-hour interview that we did on Monday.

Yeah. A 12-hour teaching series I did on angels. Demons and deliverance. You can order by going to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org.

Ask Dr. Brown.org. I believe you will be richly blessed by this resource offer. I want to take advantage of some extra time that I have just in my own notes. When I was looking at Dr.

Geisler being with us, I thought he was with us for a bit more of this hour. Actually, he gave us five more minutes than was planned, which I appreciate. But that gives me a little extra time here on the broadcast.

So, first, phone lines are going to stay open: 866-348-7884. Any question you want to ask me? Any question under the sun, as long as it's fit for Christian radio, biblical, theological, moral, cultural, whatever. I'll take some calls as I have opportunity. 866-348-7884.

But tonight at Gateway Church, the main campus in South Lake, this is one of the fastest growing churches in the nation. And I believe the most giving church, the most missions-supporting church in the nation, perhaps in the world, the Lord's just done. Very gracious things here with Pastor Robert Morris, a friend of mine, and the ministry here. They've asked me to speak tonight at their special equip service. On Wednesday nights, they'll have.

Oh, many, many different classes taking place in different areas. They have different groups that people get plugged into because, with any megachurch, you want to do your best to disciple people and help them grow beyond the weekend service.

So, they do that in many, many different ways at Gateway. But then they have everyone come together for an equipping service, and that's what's going to take place tonight. And I've been asked to talk about the moral and cultural issues. Specifically issues having to do with LGBT activism. On the one hand, you have issues, right?

issues that are affecting our kids in school. issues that are affecting us in the courts. issues that are affecting us in the workplace. And then on the other hand, you're dealing with people. People, excuse me, loved by God.

people for whom Jesus died.

So How do we address the issues and care for the people? I'm going to be talking tonight about the need to have Hearts of compassion. And backbones of steel. Hearts of compassion and backbones of steel. I believe you'll find it to be really eye-opening, really practical.

We'll ask the hard questions. What does the Bible really say about some of these key issues? We'll ask the hard questions in terms of how are we to respond to personal, difficult situations in the home. in the church We'll do it with a way that you'll be equipped.

So, join me at Gateway tonight. There'll be a short time of worship and then teaching. I believe you'll be done by about 8:30 in the evening, so plenty of time to get on with your evening. That will be at the main campus 700 Blessed Way. in South Lake Again, 7 to 8.30 tonight.

And then Tomorrow night Tomorrow night. This will be my First time doing this in the greater DFW area. We're going to have an intimate meet and greet. We won't have thousands of people. We're going to have a smaller group of people.

I'm going to give a short inspirational word. We're not going to have any worship. I'm going to give a short inspirational word. I'm going to take your live QA and then get to hang out a little bit. You want to take a picture?

Have me sign a book? We'll have some resources there as well.

So it's going to be a really special night. And that is, oh, let me just get the address here. I know I'm speaking to folks all around the country, but indulge me for a moment while I speak to folks in the greater DFW area. Even if you have to drive an hour or two to get there, hey, I've come down from North Carolina to be with you.

So that's tomorrow night at 7. At Gateway's North Richland Hills Campus, 7501 Davis Boulevard in North Richland Hills, 7 o'clock tomorrow night, and tonight at Gateway, 7 p.m. It should be a really special time together. I'm looking forward to it. I may be able to meet folks after the service tonight.

I'm not sure. We may have to run right out. But if I'm able to meet you tonight, great. Certainly tomorrow night we'll be able to. All right, 866-34Truth to the phones with Chris in Arlington, Texas.

Welcome to the line of fire. Uh hello, Doctor Brown. Hello.

Okay, yeah, I I um I realized that um you know, you don't have much time. But I'm I'm pretty sure you've gotten this question before. But I have a question. Uh about Joshua chapter ten. Um Uh versus 12 through thirteen, where it's talking about the sun Seven links video I really just need a little more explanation about that because I'm having a hard time with it.

I've read it before, I've heard it preached before. I'm still having a hard time with it, so if you can uh kind of explain I explained this path is I would I would appreciate it.

So in Joshua 10, you're talking specifically about The the command for the sun to stand still. Yes, sir. Right, so First, let me say this. I heard many years ago that NASA scientists had been able to go back Through history, and somehow could trace back through the centuries and the millennia. and discovered that there was a day missing.

And they couldn't figure it out. And then someone said, Well, look, this happened in the Bible. And they said, Oh, wow, that was the day missing. Um As far as I know, that is 100% a myth.

Okay? According to everything I know, there is no such scientific evidence for that.

So the question is and and by the way, Chris, I just want to warn you, I got a really, really simple answer for you, okay? I mean really, really, really simple. I'm not a scientist. Maybe I'll get you, Ross, on and ask him this very question. And then we'll get a scientific, educated answer.

But what I'm going to tell you is really simple, Chris. The question would be, How could Could the sun stand still in the sky?

So that the daytime was extended, so Joshua could defeat these enemies of Israel and these enemies of God and bring judgment on them. How could that happen without the whole universe going into chaos, without everything spinning off the globe and complete chaos on the earth? That would be the obvious question, right? Uh you know that scientifically it's impossible.

So my really simple answer is that Almighty God has the ability That, whatever the repercussions were to do this through the entire universe, he could do it. He could also give the appearance of the sun standing still so that there was light, because that's the big thing, that the sun stood still, there was light. That he could give that appearance and allow the light to stay on the earth for those extra hours or whatever the extra time was for Joshua to fight and defeat the enemies. You have the same kind of question with the sundial going back, the shadow going back 15 degrees, or going back with Hezekiah when he's healed and he asks for that to be the sign. How can the sun go backwards without the universe going into complete chaos?

And my simple answer is that Almighty God has the ability to manipulate certain things to get the results that he wants to get. Beyond that, Chris, I'm not a scientist. Yes, Dr. Geisler, if he was on, would have a more scientific answer, but he's not on the air with us.

So that's the best I can answer you. But honestly, It's never troubled me because I'm not a scientist. And I just figure God has the ability to do these kinds of things that seem impossible to us, but from his perspective, he could say, oh, I just did this, this, and this. And we'd say, oh, that makes sense. We just don't.

have that knowledge or information.

So I apologize for my overly simplistic answer. I know, Brad. Maybe I'm looking too deep into it, but I I just it's just one of those factors that kind of if I was to ask that question I would I guess I would want a more in-depth answer, but I guess when you look at it, I that's the best answer we could give is uh, you know, just That God has the the ability to do everything that's all power in his hand. Yeah, and Chris, there's absolutely nothing wrong with looking for more information. And a scientist like you, Ross, an astronomer, could probably give us the combination of a faith answer and science.

I'll ask him about it. Thank you, Chris. Hey friends, this is Michael Brown. I want to encourage you to join our support team today. Become a torchbearer, one of our regular monthly supporters that enables us to broadcast the line of fire around America and around the world.

And oh, every month we sell back into you in many, many different ways. Join our team, become a torchbearer. Go to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, and click on donate. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the line of fire, 866-348-7884.

Yeah, there are questions you could ask me. And I'll have to remind myself Okay. I'm on radio. We've got a wide diverse listening audience, people from many, many different backgrounds. And there's only so much time we can use to answer a question, and I don't want to lose people along the way.

So, I'll, because I've got so much information and I've done so much study on the issue, and the things can be so technical that I'll do my best to break them down simply and to present them in the clearest and most concise way. And then there are other things you ask me, and I've just got a real, real simple faith answer, like the question about the sun standing still in Joshua 10. How can that possibly be from a scientific perspective? What I find interesting, though. And I I just want to Talk to you in the straightly most straight honest way that I can.

What I find interesting is often how little that we do know. And that when we find out more What we thought was such a big problem or a big issue simply a matter of our own ignorance. a matter of our own limited perspective. Have have you ever wanted to give someone the benefit of the doubt in something? But she thought, Oh, boy There seems to be a lot of evidence against them, am I sticking my head in the sand?

And then someone just comes up with one Specific piece of information that we didn't have before and suddenly it's like, oh Oh, that explains Everything. You ever had that happen? It could be dealing with your kids, it could be dealing with a spouse, it could be dealing with a coworker, it could be dealing with an issue you're addressing in another setting. You get one little piece of information and oh, Okay, no, no, no, that explains it. Everything totally clear.

I was trying to get something set up with my radio equipment. I can broadcast studio quality from anywhere in the world with an Ethernet cable. And a unit is about a $4,000 unit that I travel with.

So it's a high-tech unit and it enables me to do a studio quality broadcast.

So I've got my mics, I've got my computer, things like that, but it's very portable, and I can do it anywhere in the world as long as I have an Ethernet cable. It's better than Wi-Fi, so it's a cable connection to the internet to plug into my unit. And it happened recently. That I could not get the unit to connect.

Now, if you're in a hotel, if you've ever used Wi-Fi in a hotel, use your computer in a hotel, often a screen page will come up, a splash page, as it's called, and it will ask for your name and it'll ask for your room number.

Now, sometimes the people booking me, When I'm speaking, will book me under the name of the person setting up the reservation. And they do that also so that people wouldn't be able to call a hotel and find me and think, oh, Dr. Brown's in this hotel or that hotel. I'm going to call and want to talk to him in the room.

So I understand it.

So sometimes I'll go to get online and I'll plug in that information. And I have to do that on my radio unit as well.

Okay, I'm going to get online. I've got my little screen there. And I've got to say, okay, I'm in this room and it's this name. And it's not working. I thought, well, I know my name.

And I know the room. It's not working. And then I was like, oh, oh, I was checked in under somebody else's name. It happened overseas, and it was an Asian name. It's like, I don't even know how to spell the name.

I heard it, but I don't know how to spell it.

So you have to call the front desk and say, excuse me, but who am I? What's the name in my room?

Well I'm on the road a lot and I can be in one hotel one day and another the next and another the next and I can get the the room number wrong. I got confused. I thought I was in 431. That was 431 yesterday. I'm in 438 today in a different hotel.

And I call tech support, and we can't figure out what's the problem. I'm putting the right name in, I'm putting the right room number in, and they're tech support. We're an hour of trying to work it out. It's like, oh, hang on, excuse me. I put the wrong room number in.

Sorry. That's happened. It happened very recently, in point of fact, like a few hours ago. But it was only a couple minutes that we took to solve that problem. But here's the point.

It seemed to me from my perspective that I was doing everything right. But I was missing something. Maybe you're a chemist. Maybe you're a mathematician. Maybe you're someone else where there's a logical system that you have to progress through.

And you can't if something is not checking out and someone says, Oh, you left a step out. Oh, I didn't even know that. I didn't realize I had to put that step in in this process. What I'm saying is, a lot of times with the Bible. With our faith?

Something's not lining up.

Something's not right. I don't understand it. I thought I believed the right what's missing? This seems to be a strong objection. A lot of times, it's just we're lacking in information.

A lot of times, an archaeological discovery will bring clarity or. Uh a a new textual discovery. or a new understanding of a word in question. And suddenly the light goes on and we realize, oh.

Okay. It wasn't that big of a deal. at all. You know, it's like I remember, I remember. decades ago.

Boy, two of the people in this memory aren't even walking with the Lord. I haven't for many, many years, but we were close friends. A guy and his girlfriend, my friend had helped lead me to the Lord, and this was his girlfriend. She had helped lead him to the Lord. And Yeah.

He had a surprise party. surprise birthday party, and he didn't want to let on at all. And over the course of the night, I think we'd go into a church service and then we're going to a surprise party, she got upset with him. because she felt he was acting in a cold way. And all he was trying to do was not let on with the fact that there was going to be the surprise party and not talk about and she's like, How come you're not talking about my birthday?

How come you're not making a big deal about my birthday? And then when she found out, He felt miserable because he kind of overdid neglecting the birthday so she'd have the bigger surprise. But it was the opposite of what she thought. She thought he hadn't remembered the birthday. To the contrary, he had not just remembered it, but made these elaborate surprise plans to make it a special birthday for her.

She misinterpreted his actions. My point is, that can happen with us and the Lord. We can misinterpret His actions. We can misinterpret what He's doing. And we don't realize that the reason for this was totally different than we were thinking or expecting.

So Hang in there. Answers do come. Questions do get resolved. Objections do get Answered. They're all there.

Sometimes the problem is we know so little. God can't even give us the information in a helpful way because if He gave it to us, we wouldn't understand it, or our current state of science would be so ignorant that the right explanation wouldn't make sense because we haven't learned enough yet to understand it. And this way as we continue to grow in our faith and in our knowledge, It all comes together. All right, one last reminder. What is it?

Just four hours from now, Gateway Church, the South Lake campus. Join us for a very special equipped service tonight. Can't wait to see you there. My bottom line today: love God with all your heart. And with all your mind, the two go hand in hand.

Ain't the world.