The gospel, politics, culture, how much do they intersect? We're in the world, not of it. What does it mean? No. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr.
Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr.
Michael Brown.
Well, I actually ended up writing about this yesterday. I discussed it on the air. We got some great calls. I ended up writing an article that you can read on our website, thelineoffire.org, should Christian leaders stay out of politics. And I want to have a very practical discussion with you and raise some pertinent issues.
We'll talk them through together here on The Line of Fire. This is Michael Brown, your voice of moral sanity and spiritual clarity in the midst of a society in chaos in a church, all too often in compromise. Friends, this is our hour to shine. This is our hour to make a difference. This is our hour to share our faith.
This is our hour to be unashamed of the gospel. If you're listening to all. Two hours of the show today. We've got some important things coming your way. An interview with an attorney with the Alliance defending freedom, some major news, an important case we're going to talk to you about.
Oh, about a half hour from now, and about 90 minutes from now, I'm going to speak to Pastor Robert Jeffress, Pastor of First Baptist Church in Texas. He made some remarks a little over a week ago about same-sex marriage that had many Christian conservatives concerned. And he's going to come on the air and share what he was saying and where he believes he's been misunderstood. Again, to get all of the broadcast, just go to thelineoffire.org. It's always archived there within a couple of hours of the show finishing.
And you can subscribe there for free to get it by podcast. All right. A few things I want to discuss before I talk gospel and politics. But well, actually, this is gospel and politics. The sovereignty of God in these elections.
It is now being reported. That There was a typo. A typo. On the part of a techie, an IT guy. working for the Democratic Party.
John Podesta His staff received an email. It's called a phishing email, where someone is trying to get you to respond to get your private information. And it said it's meant to look professional, like it's coming from the company you're dealing with or the software that you're using, saying, okay, there's been an issue, you need to change your password. And what you would do now is put your new password into someone, in this case in Russia, hacking you, if that's the case. And you put your password in, and now they have it, so now they can access all your emails, and that's what happened.
You say, Well, everybody knows not to respond to this.
Well, apparently, a staffer. saw this email and it looked legit. The staffer went to someone in IT and asked or sent it to them to ask And the person said, it's legitimate. All right, it's legitimate.
So they went ahead, put in a new password, and that's how the emails got hacked, and that helped. To work against Hillary Clinton and the Democrats because there was so much junk in their emails, so much junk from John Podesta, who was basically directing the campaign. Uh some outrageous things.
Now how much they ultimately affected the elections. Again, we don't know. But according to the story, he meant to say it's illegitimate. It's an illegitimate email. Instead, he typed it's a legitimate email.
He meant to type it's an illegitimate email. In other words, don't respond to it. Instead, he typed it's legitimate. And that one typo saying it's a legitimate email instead of saying it's an illegitimate email. Could potentially have swung enough people negatively towards the Democrats.
that it helped win the election for Donald Trump. Was it just coincidence? Fluke? or the hand of God. To me, regardless of who won or lost, you have to say...
That was the hand of God. for better or worse, intervening in these elections. Pretty wild, huh? Should we mix politics and religion? Does the gospel interface with politics?
We talked about this yesterday. I want to flesh it out a little more today. It's fire we want for fire we want. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.
Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
My main concern with today Mm-hmm. this airman's tone. It's hard to describe, but he sounded like he was just very disturbed. And Dr. Brown, as far as his presentation, how would you describe it?
I felt like it was masterful. You know, I disagree. I think that it was, you know, since I disagree with him on the substance of his position, I do have to say that I think it's ultimately kind of counterproductive for the aim of arriving at truth. That his rhetoric is so good and that his presentation is so good. It's very polished.
It's very warm. He sounded like someone who cares about you. Ehrman sounded like someone who wants to yell at you. And I just, I don't know, I'm disappointed and kind of shocked by it. This was about five years ago, and I debated Professor Bart Ehrman on the problem of suffering.
Does the Bible provide an adequate answer to the problem of suffering? Ohio State University packed out student center, great response on live stream as well. And we have that DVD available. That was an atheist. Talking to Matt, our producer, who was there for the debate, and giving his impressions about the debate.
An atheist after the debate, yeah, fascinating. No, uh, all of our DVDs, all of my debate DVDs, special teaching DVDs, even my 22-hour series on Countering the Counter-Missionaries, all of them. are available at 25% off on our website.
So, take advantage of that, all right? It's a great offer. We're trying to do some special things in the month of December to be a blessing to all of you that have been such a blessing to us through the year.
So, go to thelineoffire.org.
Okay.
So here's the question. to what extent Does the gospel interface with politics?
Some would say Jesus said in John 18, My kingdom is not of this world. That's what he said to Pilate. Otherwise, my servants would fight that I wouldn't be handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my kingdom is from another place. And Paul says in Philippians chapter 3, Our citizenship is in heaven.
So some would say Our calling. Is a high and lofty calling which doesn't intersect with politics. We preach the gospel. We seek to win the lost. We care for the hurting and the needy.
We raise godly families. We seek to be a positive influence in the world around us. But when it comes to politics, that's of the world. And therefore, we don't interact with that or interface with that, especially as Christian leaders, otherwise, it really gets messy. Because now you associate the gospel with politics, you associate the gospel with the Democrats or the Republicans, you associate the gospel with Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, you you associate the gospel with bickering over positions rather than over scripture.
So it takes us away from our calling, it brings us down to an earthly level instead of pursuing a high spiritual calling. That's one view. Another view says, well, God's Word is practical in every area of life. And God's word in the Old Testament addressed issues of kings and people, communities. And the New Testament addressed issues of what our conduct should be in this world, in the midst of monarchies and dictatorships and things like that.
And if we're to be the salt and the light, if we're to be watchman on the wall, if we are to speak words of life and truth to the world, why do we leave politics out? Our kids come home from school. They're being pressed with various issues having to do with this world and society and critical skeptical views of many things in life and questions of sexuality and on and on. Don't we sit down with them and talk practically. And if they say, boy, I'm hearing this about this candidate, or I'm hearing this about that candidate, or something's happening in my school because of new policies that have been instituted by the government, do we say, oh, well, that's worldly stuff.
We don't interact with that. No, of course we interact with it.
Well, then, why wouldn't our pastors and our leaders interact with that? Why wouldn't I, as a Christian leader, as a ministry leader, talk about that as well? For practical purposes, right? 866-348-7884. When I put out the questions, The question yesterday to you, my dear listeners.
as to whether you find it beneficial. That I address cultural issues, societal issues, political issues. Virtually every caller said yes. And that's the overwhelming input we received. And again, I was not asking you, tell me what I should talk about on the radio.
That I do my best to work out before the Lord and with my team. And of course, listening to and learning from what helps you. But ultimately, we have a certain assignment. In other words, if my assignment was to talk about science and you loved it when I talked about sports, everybody loved it when I talked about sports. They didn't like it when I talked about science.
I'm not going to now turn it into a sports. Station, I'd say, or a sports program, I'd figure out: okay, how can I talk about science in a way that will actually be positive in its effect on you? But overwhelmingly, we received calls of affirmation and encouragement, as generally happens, the few times I've asked that question over the years, to say, yeah, this really helps us a lot. And there's just so much angst and so much pressure and so much confusion about the elections that having you talk about these things and bring scripture into it was really helpful. Others see it differently, and that's where I wrote that article: Should Christian Leaders Stay Out of Politics?
I believe there are ways where we do hurt the gospel. We become so identified with a candidate or with a party that it compromises the gospel. Or we become so identified with a particular political movement that that becomes our highest allegiance. It seems even more than our allegiance to the Lord and to His people. There are ways where I believe we can hurt our witness.
But otherwise, I say the gospel interfaces with every area of life and every area of the world, and politics is no more worldly in that respect than business. And anything else that we live in and work in and seek to influence positively. You may agree with that. You may differ. The phone lines are open, 866-348-7884.
We'll start in New York with Eric. Welcome to the line of fire, sir. Hi, Dr. Brown. I just want to say first on that I'm a Jupiter Jesus.
I'm part of the community now. Great for for how long, Eric? Uh well, it's been about fifteen years. But uh Uh you know, I I I really Lately I've been really uh focused on my uh studies, my Bible studies.
So Great. Um I have a um An interesting take on the politics and religion. My ex-wife was a uh Jehovah Witness.
So I learned a lot from that that they really, really stay out of the political and actually the wars, participating in wars. And I kind of frankly, I think that's the way to go. I mean, obviously, we're surrounded by the world, like you said, and the culture, and we're going to have. Political discussions and everything. But in terms of really, like, I look at it in terms of running for political office.
as a true Christian. I think should be you know, as like an occupation. should be refrained from. But it doesn't uh what do you think?
Well, why would you first I appreciate you wrestling with this? And Jehovah's Witnesses have often suffered for their convictions. Of course, their occult, their teaching is very wrong, their doctrine is terribly wrong. We understand that. Their Bible translation is very, very poor.
So I pity them, and they're under great legalistic pressure to perform and talk to certain numbers of people. But they have suffered for their convictions, and they do have a certain. Otherworldly perspective when it comes to politics and things. But Eric, think of this: 1 Timothy 2. Paul says that we should pray for kings, rulers, those in authority, that we can live peaceful, godly lives, etc.
So what if we pray for a king or a political leader and that person gets saved? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Oh, obviously, a good thing. Right. If they can get saved in office, Why can't they be saved and called to serve in politics?
In other words, why do we make a distinction there and say, okay, you can be called to be a businessman, you can be called to conduct an orchestra, you can be called to have a computer software company, but you can't be called to be a political leader. As a political leader, think you can stand for justice, you can stand for righteousness, you can stand for the poor and the oppressed, you can do so much good. Why wouldn't that be an area that God would call someone into? You know, yeah, I guess. Just because of what, like what you were describing, that you know, we're not of the world, we partake, we're supposed to pay our taxes and partake in the world, but not really.
begin the culture. And to me, the political end is like a Be really participating in the culture of the world. I understand.
Well, really, really, sir, when it says we're not of the world, it means we're not of the spirit of this age. and that we do not partake in worldly, carnal, sinful things. Our priorities or goals are going to be different than those of worldly people. And some would say politics is so corrupt And so worldly that you can't enter into it as a Christian. But many would say, no, we're as godly people.
We stand our ground. And if God opens the door for us to be elected, we serve. And if we have to compromise our convictions and be worldly in order to be elected, then we won't do that. I think that's the way to sort it out. But thank you, sir, for your call.
Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
I think Jews do have a certain authority in looking at the life of Jesus because he was a Jew. And he kept Judaism. Let us recall. that the religion of Jesus was not Christianity, it was Judaism. The reason why That means that Jesus ate kosher food.
We know this because even the Jerusalem church continued to eat kosher food and was critical. of Paul and Peter and those who no no longer were keeping kosher. Um Jesus Defends when the Sabbath is not being kept, giving very good arguments. He keeps the Jewish Sabbath. His religion is Judaism, so we have a right to school.
Well, that's, I don't want to say that as a pejorative. We have a right to share with our Christian brothers and sisters the Jewishness of Jesus, which enriches their faith. That is my good friend Rabbi Shmuela Goteak from our debate: Who is the real kosher Jesus? Moderated quite passionately by Sid Roth on two DVDs. Again, those are some of the DVDs that you can get at 25% off all this week through our ministry.
Go to the lineofire.org.
Okay.
Uh let me let me change gears for a moment. And just Share something that got my attention. I've been thinking about it for a while. And I want to give you this word of encouragement as we talk gospel politics.
So maybe you remember this, but four years ago, when Rick Perry. announced that he was going to run for president.
So what's what? five years back now. And immediately he shot to number one. He was a popular governor in Texas and a very likable, charismatic type of guy. and committed Christian on top of that.
And uh He was in one of the debates.
Now, that didn't seem to be his strongest point. You know, some people are much better public speakers than debaters, and some are much better debaters than public speakers, and some are much better writers than speakers. You know, just different skills, and some are sharper than others.
So it wasn't as strong as suit. But obviously he's working on it. He's a sharp guy that could that could run a state, big state like Texas.
So it was November 2011. And he was talking about if if he were president, there were three agencies that he would eliminate, commerce, education, and a third one. And he said it's three agencies of government when I get there that are gone, commerce education and the um what's the third one there? Let's see 005, commerce education and the um um And Mitt Romney said, maybe you mean EPA, Environmental Protection Agency. And Perry said, EPA, there you go.
But then he said, no, no, actually, it needs to be rebuilt, not eliminated. The moderator on CNN DC, John Harwood, asked, but you can't name the third one? And Rick Perry said, the third agency of government, I would do away with the education, the commerce, and let's see, I can't, the third one, I can't.
Sorry. Oops. And that was kind of the end. He never recovered from that in terms of regaining the momentum and being taken that seriously as a potential candidate for all of his good qualities. And with all the attacks on President Bush, obviously wrongful attacks, President George W.
Bush's intelligence or this or that.
Now they're coming after Rick Perry the same way, again, unfairly. But that's what happened.
Now, someone told me, and I have zero clue if there's any truth to this, that he had had a cold and had taken some medicine and it wasn't quite as sharp. And who knows? It can happen to anybody. You know, come back from overseas. I was a little jet lagged.
Nancy and I were talking about something the other day. And I said, who's the person? And she got the name. I said, yeah, I forgot the name. I just kind of blanked out.
I said, I'm a little jet lag.
Well, I mean, things can happen, but in any case.
Now, Donald Trump has nominated him to head the Department of Energy, the department that he couldn't remember.
Now, he said it'd be eliminated if he was in, but obviously serving under Mr. Trump, President-elect Trump, he would serve and the department would be there, and he'd do his best to make it the best it could be. And I thought, isn't that? A picture of redemption, though. You know what I'm saying?
Isn't that a picture of God's gracious redemption? that that here in in a very Public dramatic way in a national presidential debate as a leading candidate, he has his oops moment. And he can't remember the Department of Energy. And that's what he's been nominated to lead. Isn't that something isn't that just like the Lord?
the way he works in our lives.
Now, here, think of this. Governor Mike Pence, now vice president-elect Pence, a couple years back, he really caved under tremendous pressure from gay activists and their allies, big business. When he passed a good strong, signed into law a good strong Religious Freedoms Restoration Act that mirrored the federal act that overwhelmingly passed under President Clinton, under President Bill Clinton. And now there was a state side one to further reinforce that. And he.
Uh uh Governor Pence came under tremendous pressure. And within a week, backtracked on that. And ended up uh ended up uh Say, okay, we're going to fix this, and then... assigned legislation that was actually in the view of most of us who followed that worse than the way things were before. And I remember those of us watching this, because Governor Pence was a fine, respected governor and a fine Christian man as well.
We kind of thought, wow, that's a death knell on his political future because he had been hailed as potentially could lead the presidential candidate or something. And here is looked at as, wow, he's disqualified himself with that.
Well, obviously, he's continued to lead well since that time, and I think learned from it. But the point is, he gets. He gets chosen. to be the vice presidential candidate. He's a heartbeat away from the presidency, as we say.
So, I want to encourage you: even as you look at Donald and Melania Trump, perhaps the most unlikely. President and first lady in our nation's history. that that God delights in using unlikely vessels. And God delights in going to the place of our failure, excuse me, the place of our failure. the place of our mistakes.
The place of our sin The place of our weakness. and showing his mercy and power there.
So I want to encourage you personally. Many of you have really messed up in your lives. All of us have one level or another, some more severely than others. And some of you are thinking that it's irreparable. It can never go back to the way it was.
Actually God might have a plan to make things better than they were. You might have committed adultery and destroyed your marriage. You think it'll never be what it was before. It could be better than it was before. God's a Redeemer.
God's a redeemer. That's the whole message of the cross. The greatest sin ever committed by the human race was the crucifixion of the Son of God, and yet that is God's means. of saving the world.
So Be encouraged, God's a Redeemer. If you don't know the Lord, if you've never put your trust in Him and asked Him to forgive your sins and make you His child so you can live the rest of your life for Him, And that's why Jesus died to take your place to pay for your sins. Cry out to him today and confess, be honest. Say, God, I've been a wretch. And you've been perfectly good.
Forgive me. I believe Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead. You can receive new life today, friend, this very day. If you do pray, if you do cry out, let us know. Shoot a note to our website at thelineoffire.org.
For all of you who are believers, put your trust in God, the Redeemer. He can turn things around. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.
Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire 866-34TRUT. Let's go right to the phones, Phil. All right, we won't go there. Let's go to Stephen in Northern Virginia. Welcome to the line of fire.
Hi, how you doing? Uh uh my name is uh Steve Ramsey and uh I think uh this is very apt for me because um I kind of I grew up in the DC area, so was in brief politics as a local local news and um was really really interested in pursuing politics and then I came to know the Lord. And, you know, it's still was still interested. Um Um Somewhere in college I I you know, I I did a couple of internships with people around Capitol Hill. Um people on Capitol Hill And I came to a conclusion that for me it was it I started to see where people were were seeing as As a person who favored an issue over Jesus.
So in my specific instance, Yep. I would say for me right now, Um that the answer would be it's better for me to stay out.
Now that's not something that I would hold as a standard to others. I think that God may have placed people in certain places of ability, and it might be their. duty because of their unique privilege or their unique So let me ask you this, Stephen. First, I think it's a mature... Attitude to say, hey, this may not be for everybody, but this was my own experience, and I have to be faithful to God in the midst of that.
So often we project our experience on everybody else. or our conviction on everybody else. When you were in the midst of interning in DC, Okay. Did you see the possibility of Of a godly believer serving there without having to compromise. their personal convictions, their ethics, scriptural standards.
In other words, there are certain things that you could not participate in. You could not actively participate, say, in dogfighting. without compromising your Christian convictions. You couldn't actively participate in working at a strip club. without compromising your convictions.
Are things, in your opinion, so dirty, so compromised, so corrupt within DC that it's virtually impossible? to walk in that without compromising convictions or do you see it's possible but just not for you? Your call.
So I guess it got a lot dirtier. After I tannino. moved on, so this is a good ten years ago now. Um At the time I would say that there is a lot to be said for fundraising. Um for Okay.
I'll just leave it there. And um And as a result, I think that people that are well connected that certain people that have the the necessary funds maybe just in a better position. That goes against our our American narrative. um of you can do what you want and I'm I'm not you know But I I do think that God may place people in a position of influence and money So that they could be you know, to use in the political realm because that's when they're not as likely to be tied by needing to provide, let's say, I gave you a favor on this day, I'm expecting it here. Got it.
All right. So interesting.
So a lot of it is the is the money and I'll scratch your back if you scratch my back kind of thing. Yeah, look, let me just say this, Stephen. There are many, many areas of life. where If you play by God's rules, you're told you can't play in the game. And even within ministry, I don't mean people have ever asked me to sin, you know, like use, you know.
Get drunk or steal money or something. But sometimes I've been told, like, just bend a little here, otherwise, the doors won't open. And I've said, hey, I. I can't, I'm sorry, I can't bend here. And yet, God's opened even bigger doors.
And that's the test of our faith. If we say, hey, if the Lord's going to back this, he backs it. I'm not going to compromise. That's the key thing. Hey, Stephen, we're out of time, but thank you, sir, for the call.
It's insightful. I appreciate it. Change the world. Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.
Michael Brown.
Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. One of the things that I have said for years now. is that gay activism will overplay its hand. That the bullying will backfire, or the extreme nature of the agenda will backfire. In other words, most Americans want to be tolerant, fair.
We don't want to be guilty of discrimination against any group of people. To the extent Americans believe that gay is the new black, or transgender is the new black, or they have a family member or friend that identifies as LGBT, they want to be accepting and positive, but it never stops there. Things keep going further and further. Because of which there are backlashes, and I believe that on a societal level we'll continue to see these backlashes.
Something very important has taken place, another major case that we need to discuss. And I'm joined now by Eric Stanley. Eric is Senior Counsel Director of the Center for Christian Ministries with the Alliance Defending Freedom, with whom we work closely. Eric, welcome again to the broadcast. Thanks for joining us.
Oh, thanks for having me on. It's great to be with you.
So Eric, what's this latest case that should have the attention of the whole nation, really? Yes, absolutely.
Well, we had filed a lawsuit on behalf of four churches in Massachusetts because Last year, the Massachusetts legislature changed its nondiscrimination law to add gender identity as a protected class into its law. And it tasked the Attorney General and the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination with coming up with guidance to interpret and enforce that law. And both the Attorney General and the Commission Came out with the guidance that said that churches were considered places of public accommodation, and therefore they could not discriminate in their facility uses. on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. And so we filed a lawsuit to protect the right of pastors and churches to free.
freely operate consistent with their faith. And we're happy to report that shortly after we filed the lawsuit, the state backed down. clarified that it could not intrude upon the First Amendment rights of churches. And the lawsuit's been resolved. All right, so before we celebrate the victory here, let's first understand exactly what happened.
Were they saying. In a Sunday morning church service, the that the church had to change its standards or values, or let's just say the church was having a dinner of some kind or hosting some community event, that in those situations, it would have to go by the state standards. Yeah.
Well, there was some confusion on that point, even between the Attorney General and the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination. The Commission said that, and this is a quote from their guidance, they said even a church could be seen as a place of public accommodation if it holds a secular event such as a spaghetti supper that is open to the public. But the Attorney General simply put onto her website that churches, in general, were subject to the new gender identity law. And so there certainly was some disagreement and confusion, but I think at base, what was going on is the state of Massachusetts was attempting to come into the church facilities and regulate how the church could use its building and really say that you could not discriminate in the use of your building facilities in your restrooms, in your changing areas, your private areas, your locker rooms. on the basis of gender identity.
And so that's really what they were after.
Alright, so then specifically, what this would mean is if a clearly biological male walked into the church building, be it for uh some community event that was being hosted, or be it for Sunday morning service. And the man is wearing a dress, but it's clearly a biological male. And he then goes to walk into the ladies' restroom during the service with other women and girls in there. And an usher said, Sir, I'm sorry, this is for women only. That according to this proposed law, that would have been discrimination.
Well, that's right. And it goes even further than that because under the rules or under the law, as it was passed by the Massachusetts legislature, gender identity is defined as one's perception of one's own gender. And so it doesn't even have to Be someone who dresses like the opposite gender or acts like the opposite gender. It could be. A biological man who acts and dresses and looks like a biological man, but just Perceives himself to be a woman on a particular day, could use a restroom or or a changing area.
And then what's even worse about the law is that it would If the church were found to be discriminating, it could be fined thousands of dollars. And it carried a penalty of up to a year in jail for every instance of discrimination.
So this was clearly. A very um over the top attempt that had a lot of teeth to it to subject churches to this new law. All right, you can't put a church in jail or a building in jail. You can't put the whole congregation in jail. Who would have gone to jail?
Uh Uh well, it probably would have been uh the governing authorities of the church, either the pastor or the elder board or deacon board, whoever was in charge of the church. That certainly that was one of the options that the state had was to enforce this through criminal sanctions. And if you had some heterosexual predator We we know there are, tragically, way too many such people out there. And this person is looking for a way to get at Say is a male heterosexual predator, and he's looking for a way to just, he's a voyeur, he's looking for a way to look at women in some state of undress, or just be near them in that state, or maybe look at little girls in vulnerable situations. And this person came into the building, same deal, just says, I'm a woman, identify as a woman.
That there actually be no way. that that the church could stop that person.
Well, under the law, I think that's exactly right because the church would if they stopped a person like that would be subject to a potential discrimination claim that again could include fines or criminal penalties. And I think what's what's the you know, that's certainly bad enough, and that's a very, very valid and large concern about these laws is that they do open up these areas to potential predators. But even a bigger kind of constitutional issue with this is just the complete and utter disregard that the state of Massachusetts showed. for the fact that church facilities are not just like any other business. That everything that a church does in and through its facilities is a part of its religious beliefs.
It speaks to the community about what the church believes. And how they want to be perceived in the community. And so, for the government to come and force a church to use its facilities in ways that violate its faith. is a blatant intrusion. uh on the constitutional rights of the church.
Now is there Is there or has there been any ambiguity over the decades? with the government's overreach? In other words, is this something that our courts have wrestled with for decades and our founders were unclear about? Or is this one of these egregious overreaches that everyone has to shout and say, what are you doing? This is definitely one of those egregious oversights.
You know, this is. The protections for For the free exercise of religion and the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment, we're put there to be very clear that there is a sphere of authority and of autonomy that the government cannot intrude upon. And that's the realm of the Church, that in the internal workings of the Church, And the Supreme Court's been clear about this going back to the early 1800s and case after case after case that there is. When it comes to the internal affairs of the church, how the church structures itself, how it does its business, how it exercises its religion, how it uses the different things that it uses for those religious purposes, buildings and offices and things of that nature, that the government simply cannot intrude upon that. And if they do, it violates the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause.
This is very clear. It's been very clear for just literally dozens and dozens of years. through dozens of cases. And what Massachusetts did here was an egregious overstep. And I think our lawsuit actually caused them to understand that because they started to run very quickly after we filed the lawsuit and in fact actually sent us a letter the Attorney General did shortly after the lawsuit was filed that said that unqualified references to houses of worship was inconsistent with the First Amendment right of churches.
And your lawsuit caused us to focus on these issues and to make a revision to their website to remove churches as places of public accommodation. The scary thing is, though, if churches had not said stop. and other conservative organizations standing for religious liberty had not said stop and then the ADF got actively involved. This could have actually happened. And it would really be no different.
In fact, it would be far worse than, but no different theoretically, than a church that said we don't ordain women to be pastors. And the state says, unless you do. You're going to be fined and spend a year in jail. I mean, it would be that much of an overreach. Hey, Eric, I've got one more question.
You can just stay on the other side of the break. And it has to do. With if you are seeing any type of change in the courts, in the cases you're dealing with, any type of change in sentiments as LGBT activists continue to be guilty of Of overreach and pushing in a way that is plainly going too far. I wonder if you're seeing any kind of backlash in the courts or positive results in the cases.
So, speaking with Eric Stanley, the Alliance Defending Freedom. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
I'm speaking with Eric Stanley, working with the Alliance Defending Freedom. They have been on the front lines of standing for righteousness, standing for morality and culture, standing for religious freedoms for several decades now, but under ever-increasing pressure. As the society has lost, or American society has lost many of its important bearings. Eric, there's been tremendous momentum. On the side of gay activism for some years now.
Obviously, something positive is that the church has had to reevaluate its outreach to the gay and lesbian community and asked: Are we treating everyone with compassion and seeking to invite everyone to hear the gospel and receive? Are we demonizing people? And, you know, there are obviously positive things have happened, but overwhelmingly, there's been a negative Trend in society culminating last year in the Supreme Court redefining marriage and the Obama. Yeah.
Mm. In America, we see what's happening in the military and and on and on. And sometimes it can be discouraging to be Standing for what's right. You were involved in the Supreme Court case and to see losses there. Are you seeing any?
Any changes? Have gay activists overplayed their hand, say, with bullying? Is there more sympathy in America for people who've lost their businesses and for others that are being singled out for their views? Or perhaps the push of transgender activism and the Obama administration telling schools you're going to be punished unless you allow a 15-year-old boy to share a locker room and shower stall with a 15-year-old girl? Are you seeing this?
Any positive pushback?
Well, I think we are. You mentioned a couple of instances where that's the case. I think we're seeing some positive pushback in the Obama administration's attempt to redefine the word sex to include gender identity and to force public schools to open their restrooms and locker rooms to members of the opposite sex. I think that's an issue where they've overplayed their hand, where it affects the privacy and the safety of women and young girls. And I think we're seeing a backlash as a result of that.
In fact, we're involved in a number of lawsuits on that issue where families have been filing lawsuits against the Obama administration to protect the privacy and safety of their young women in these sensitive areas. We're also starting to hopefully, see some sympathy given to business owners who just want to exercise their faith and just want to do that in the context of their business to not have to be forced To participate in creative expression and in ceremonies that violate their faith. I think that it it remains to be seen how all of this is still going to play out. In the culture and in the courts. And I think specifically in the courts, these battles will continue to be fought for the next decade or so until.
we come to some understanding of what this is going to look like. But I think that our case in Massachusetts stands for at least the proposition that when we stand together and when we push back and when we show up, we can win, and we do win. And I think in these cases where the government or activists have overplayed their hand, as they did in Massachusetts. then when we do stand and we file these lawsuits, we can and do win. And we've been blessed by God's grace to see a great level of success in the kinds of cases that we're bringing and in the understanding in the courts that freedom is still worth protecting.
Yeah, haven't you seen a string of great victories over the years on college campuses having to do with restriction of freedom of speech? Oh, absolutely. College campuses have tried for years to get away with speech zones and codes and discrimination codes and those kinds of things. And every time that we've set up one of these codes in a lawsuit, it's been knocked down as unconstitutional. We've seen a great string of success there.
So I think that's fertile ground there. I think the business owners, the creative professionals, that's going to be fertile ground for protection, for victory in the future as we protect the rights of conscience of people of faith to live and act according to their beliefs. And I think in the church and in religious organizations, there's still a willingness to understand and accept. That the First Amendment does protect the right of churches to live and to act freely in accordance with their faith.
So, do you think, and we'll be done here in just a couple of minutes, and thanks so much for your time today, that if Christian pastors, leaders, On a regular basis, on an annual basis, educated their people on these issues. And Christian parents got involved in schools. Do you think something that simple? could help spark a national moral and cultural revolution.
Well, I certainly hope and pray that, that's the case. I do know that we are living in a day where. We are simply living as Christians in our churches. in our businesses, in our communities. proclaiming the gospel, living it out in our daily lives, simply doing those acts as Christians comes into conflict with the culture and the prevailing norms of the day.
And so, whether people get involved or not may not even be an option. It may be that they have to get involved in order to preserve our freedoms. But I think that we have to learn these lessons that ADF has been able to learn. By God's grace over the years that we've been filing these cases, is that when we stand together and we push back, we can and we do win by God's grace. We're blessed to have.
over an eighty five percent success rate in the cases we file, Which is pretty amazing considering the cutting edge issues that we deal with. But that just goes to show how much can be accomplished when people do become informed, become engaged, and then stand. for truth. Absolutely. And that's a staggering statistic.
I've often spoken with one of your colleagues, Joan Franco, a longtime friend for decades back. And he talked to me about the successes on campuses and then different cases and some of the challenges. But 85% success rate, when you're really in the thick of some of the most difficult cultural issues and we're constantly being told the culture wars are over, just capitulate and roll over. And to me, we know what that sounds like. It's like trash talk between two boxers before a fight.
You don't even want to get in the ring with me, man. You're going to get knocked out. You just smile at the bravado and go and do your job.
So thank you, sir, for what you're doing and for this great victory in Massachusetts. May it be a lesson for the whole nation. Amen. Thank you so much for having me on. It's great to be with you today.
All right. God bless you. That was Eric Stanley from the Alliance Defending Freedom. Good news. Words of encouragement.
All right, friends. Isn't that an example of the gospel and politics interfacing? Isn't it? Isn't that an example of Christian attorneys, a Christian legal society? Standing up for Christian rights in the courts.
And the courts and/or the Attorney General making the right decision. because they've been confronted with truth. And you say, well, they weren't preaching the gospel. They were just talking about constitutionalism. Yeah, they're doing this Christians.
It injures sex. It intersects.
So let's have a healthy outlook, and then above all, Our battle is spiritual. Our ultimate battle is always spiritual, and that's why it comes down to living godly lives using the weapon of the gospel, not the weapon of anger, violence, hatred, intimidation, but the weapon of the good news of the gospel. and the weapon of prayer. You guys have secret weapons. Oh, yeah, and they're spiritual and they're amazingly effective.
If we will. Take advantage of that. Remember, friends, all of our DVDs, my many debates on many different subjects, extensive teaching series, 22-hour series on countering the counter-missionaries, all Available at 25% discount this week at thelineoffire.org. Also check out my latest articles and videos there. We've posted a whole bunch in recent days.
My bottom line, the gospel, politics, do they intersect? Do we live in this world? Do we breathe the same air? You bet. Is it time for a holy pushback in society?
How much can we bring about change through the gospel today?
Okay.
It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Come on, we've been hearing this for years now. Culture wars are over. Time to throw on the towel. You guys have lost. Accept it.
Get over it. And lick your wounds. Go on. get on to other issues. Heard it for years.
I don't believe it for a split second. I'm believing for a split second because, number one, God is King, Jesus is Lord, and that's the ultimate authority to which we bow. And God can turn things on a dime if He so chooses, or if we cooperate with Him, things can turn on a dime. And history takes a long time and history makes lots of unexpected stops and starts and turns along the way. And you never know what's going to happen even from year to year within a society.
Plus, I believe deeply in my own heart that God's promised that we'll have a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution. I am not one of those who's Thrown in the towel or deeply discouraged. In fact, hope rings true in me all the time. Are we now seeing some things happening in the society That would point in the direction of some positive changes. This is Michael Brown.
You are listening to the line of fire, where we serve as your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Why? Because we are convinced. That it is God's plan in America for there to be a gospel-based moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. How far things will go, I don't know.
How much pushback there will be, I don't know. But I've been convinced for years that there will be a holy pushback in positive ways that will be for the ultimate good of. America. We're not talking about a Christian takeover where we force everyone to keep our faith under punishment of the law so if you don't go to church on Sunday or read the Bible, you go to jail. No, no, no, no, no.
But We were able to stand for righteousness, where we're able to stand against unrighteousness, where we're able to follow ways of life and not death, and freedom and not bondage.
So um last half hour I had on with me Eric Stanley, an attorney with the Alliance Defending Freedom, talking about an important case in Massachusetts where the state completely overstepped its bounds and Told churches that they had to follow radical transgender activist goals. Otherwise they could be fined severely and governing authorities in the church could spend up to a year in jail. Say for what?
Well, if a man came into a service, said, Well, I'm a woman, I identify as a woman, and he wanted to use the lady's restroom where other women were or girls were. The church said, No, sir, I'm sorry, that's for women only, they could be guilty of discrimination. And leaders or governing authorities in the church face, you're in jail and fine. who wants defending freedom pushed back and said that is a complete and total a complete and total violation of the First Amendment. That is a complete overreached by the stage.
And the government in into private religious affairs. That would be like saying, well, if if you believe the Bible is infallible, Uh, if you believe that and don't admit that the Bible is filled with errors, you go to jail for you. I mean, who gives the government the right to say something like that? Obviously. Obviously.
It's saying you can't practice your faith. Are you guilty of discrimination?
Well, immediately, when the case was filed on behalf of four churches by the Alliance Defending Freedom, The Attorney General said we never should have put churches in that clause there. And of course, unlike the whole direction the state was going anyway, but... All that to say, there is an immediate pushback. and there were positive results. Is this part of a larger trend?
And Does the election of Donald Trump contribute to that as well. 866-34TRUTH. We'll take that up later in this hour. Special interview with Pastor Robert Jeffress about a very important issue. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.
Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
I just kind of quietly took the step. I just thought, I'm. I believe him. I'm just going to follow him.
So.
So that was my conversion. It was very quiet. It wasn't very dramatic. There was no change in my sexuality. Having made that decision, I think it was just a change in my allegiance.
At that point, I thought, I'm gonna follow Jesus. God's answer was. to say to me, I love you. And then he said you don't have to be gay. And I thought Well that didn't come from me.
Because I sure didn't agree with that, I sure didn't believe that. And I just stopped in my tracks and I said, okay. What does that mean? Hmm. Wow, this is powerful stuff.
This is from the DVD, such were some of you. Testimonies of men and women who've come out of homosexuality, some with tremendous stories of decades of freedom and transformation, a teaching what the Bible says about this and some of the key cultural questions, issues. I'm a voice on there in terms of the Bible and cultural issues. There are those who came out of homosexuality with their testimonies. Professor Robert Gagnon, foremost authority on the Bible and homosexual practice, he's on there, put together by David Foster, who himself has an amazing testimony.
It's one of many DVDs available from our ministry this week, all at 25% off, as we've sought to be a blessing to you who've been such a blessing to us through the years.
So go to thelineoffire.org to find out more. Thelineoffire.org and order as many as you want, multiple copies of the same to give away to others, all different ones. We've got a wide, wide assortment that will edify you and bless you. Take advantage of these resources, thelineofire.org.
Okay.
Okay, back to the question of pushback. Uh This was yesterday. Tammy Bruce, who's openly gay and staunchly conservative, radio host. She's speaking with Fox News's Tucker Carlson. explaining why she believes Trump's election may have signaled an end of politics as usual, and represented a shift where Americans will no longer tolerate liberal bullying over beliefs in Christian faith.
JJ, let's start with clip number nineteen, Tammy Bruce speaking with Tucker Carlson. For the left in the last eight years, we've learned that they're fascists, right? And I think that what we're seeing now, after a decade of cultural success, I think the left is now looking for a new tact. And of course, we've always seen it Christians are the target in general, as we've seen with bakers that won't bake cakes for weddings, etc. But now, since gay marriage is the law of the land and Americans generally are open to more of a fluid dynamic culturally, the left needs to find some other thing to argue.
And in this case, I think it's a portend of something very difficult, in that they now want Christians to preemptively prove that they pay allegiance to conforming and to secular society. It's a new attack on Christians to let them know that effectively you are guilty until proven innocent. Mm. articulate and clear. And again, part of Part of what I've said for years that the bullying will backfire.
and that Americans are people who love freedom. In a movement that began as a liberation freedom movement, gay liberation. has become, in many ways, a movement devoted to taking away the freedoms of others. When the freedoms of others conflict with the goals of gay activism.
So let's listen to more of this discussion, Tammy Bruce and Tucker Carlson, Clip 20. The election itself was a message about our rejecting of political correctness and the culture of intimidation. This couple had support from across the board. Their premiere in the midst of this smear had a record-breaking premiere. And I think Americans are saying: look, no matter who we are, enough is enough with the culture of intimidation, enough with attacking individuals because of their faith, especially coming from the gay community as a gay woman.
I find it outrageous that we're attacking people simply because of who they are.
So, the thing that's so fascinating is that she's saying this as a lesbian. Right? And the argument would be that she as a lesbian was being attacked for who she was.
Now she's saying that's not the case. People are living freely in America, making the decisions they want to make. Two men or two women can even, quote, marry each other. Um Right. I put Mary in quotes if we're talking about two men marrying each other, two women marrying each other.
And she's saying it's now turned. that if you simply have Christian values, Christian moral values, you're being attacked for that. And you're going to be interrogated for that. And as we see with the ridiculous BuzzFeed cosmopolitan attack on Chip and Joanna Gaines of HGTV. Fixer upper fame, which seems to have drawn more of a backlash against the attackers than against those being attacked, rightly so.
That that the gains are basically being attacked because they go to a church that preaches the gospel and believes what the Bible says about sexual purity and and marriage. How dare they? You go there?
So I mean, you're on an inquisition. You're talking about a literal Inquisition. What church do you go to?
Well, what do they believe?
Well, you can't do that if you want to be on TV.
Well, you can't go there if you want to have a job here. I mean, it's outrageous. And there's a pushback because the gay activists are going too far. One more clip. Again, Tammy Bruce with Tucker Carlson on Fox.
Go ahead. And here was an argument that they were somehow supposed to prove and answer an Inquisition's questions about who they are and what they stand for. The fact is, I only care about the choice she makes for the backsplash with the houses that she's updating. I don't care what they think. And as a gay person, as an American, I want it's about individual liberty, individual freedom, and that's what this election was about.
And I hope that Americans are standing up against bullies. And in this case, that means we have to stand up against the American left. And again, she was talking about Joanna Gaines and the decisions she makes on fixing up and designing a house. There's an article by Pat Buchanan, longtime conservative leader. And it was published December 9th on CNS News.
I'm not sure where else it was released. And Headline is, has the Trumpian? revolution begun. You say, well, well, hang on, hang on for a second. It might you're mixing apples with oranges here.
Because the impetus of getting Donald Trump elected, populism and nationalism, Americans not liking the way the country was going, we don't win anymore, a great Trump line in the campaign, and people not liking where their economy is, not feeling good about security and borders and things like that. And then just the pushback against the elitism of Washington, the elitism of the media. And the common person feeling that their rights are being scorned. As you say, that was the pushback. That got Trump elected and putting his finger on the anger and fear in the hearts of many Americans, which, of course, is going to be mixed because it's human beings.
That's what got him elected. It had nothing to do with issues like same-sex marriage or stuff like that. In fact, he's not been clear or strong on that issue.
Okay, I fully understand that. And Pat Buchanan understands that. The point is, the point is, it is a push Government. And some of that included things like transgender bathrooms. No, Donald Trump did not make an issue of this.
In fact, he said that Bruce Jenner would be welcome to use the ladies' room in the Trump Tower if he wanted to. Um However, the man on the street that voted for Trump. probably is not keen. on on a a 16 year old boy. Playing on his daughter's sports team and sharing the locker room, bathroom, and shower stalls with his 16-year-old daughter.
Probably not. And even the New York Times said to the liberals, to the Democrats, we're majoring the wrong things. You should have been talking about the economy and meeting the needs of the average American as opposed to pushing transgender bathrooms, for example.
So Pat Buchanan raises the question, are we He says, indeed, with Trump's presidency, we may be entering. a post liberal era. It could be there is a larger pushback taking place in the society. Could it be that there is a larger pushback? In terms of Americans just saying, we don't like the direction of this, we don't like all this radical left stuff being put on us.
And it never stops, it's never enough. Just when we say, okay, we're happy with this, great. You want us to be accepting and tolerant? We're accepting intolerant. No, no, that's bigoted.
What do you have to tolerate? What do you have to accept? You should not you should you should affirm.
Okay okay.
Well, we affirm No, that's not enough you have to celebrate.
Well, what if we have personal differences? You can't. You're not allowed to.
So Pat Buchanan says this, and it's a fascinating line. As Hegel taught, In the dialectic of history the thesis calls into existence the antithesis. What we seem to be seeing is a rejection. and a counter-reformation against the views and values that came out of the social and political revolutions of the 1960s. Friends, that's what I've been saying is coming for years now.
A pushback against the radical values of the 60s that so impacted America today. Is it happening? And are we seeing it reflected in the election of Donald Trump? It seems so. It seems so.
It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.
Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
I am not a racist, and neither are my photos. This sentence proves that you judges are completely out of touch. That is the voice of Geert Wilders, political leader in the Netherlands, a controversial political leader, potential. Prime Minister in the future of the Netherlands convicted by the courts of hate speech, a hate crime. And according to reports that I've read here, I'm looking at the independent.co.uk British publication, Dutch anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders rises in polls after hate crime conviction.
Rises in polls after hate crime conviction. I'm going to tie this in what I've been talking about in America in a moment, but let's listen to one more clip. This is his reaction to the courts, to the judges of the conviction. Clip 18. The Netherlands have become a sick country.
And I have a message for the judges who convicted me. You have restricted the freedom of speech of millions of Dutch and, hence, convicted everyone. No one trust you anymore. But fortunately Truth and liberty are stronger than you. And so am I.
I will never be silent. You will not be able to stop me.
Now I want you to consider this. Good Vilders was recently banned from entering the UK. because of his alleged Islamophobia. He put out a powerful video some years ago. showing acts of Islamic terror, side by side with violent verses from the Quran.
And he said that is the religion of the Quran. Of course, radical Muslims would have said correct. And other Muslims would have said that that is not our faith, and we reject that interpretation of our holy book. But certainly had the right to do that, and he's concerned about the direction of the Netherlands. You're talking about small European countries.
You're not talking about countries with hundreds of millions of people. And if you have an influx of hundreds of thousands or a million immigrants who want to hold to their culture, not assimilate it into your culture, and who are very aggressive with their culture, that's going to produce conflict. And when quite a few major cities in Europe, even some countries, The number one boy's name is Muhammad, and this has been the case for some time in different cities in the Netherlands or Sweden or even countries like England. When you Look at the different ways Muhammad is spelled and put them all together as one. No, it's not the end of the world, but it's telling you there is a growing Islamic culture.
within these countries And in many cases, it stands against the values of those countries and the way of life of those countries. And more and more of the countries, they're not Muslim haters. I'm sure you have some Muslim haters among them. They had no problem with Muslims living among them for years, but when the Muslims became either more radicalized or less assimilated or their numbers increased, A lot of people began to say, wait, wait, wait. This is our way of life.
And we're not just supporting you with our system. And it's not right. It's not right. Hungary actually said no, we made that mistake before. That Hungary actually came under Islamic rule for For what, a century and a half?
I forget the exact number before fighting back and regaining freedom. This was hundreds of years ago. And when the refugee crisis began and Muslim immigrants began pouring out of the Middle East and Africa, Hungary said, No, we're not taking you in. We've taken you in. You don't want to work.
This is not an indictment on all Muslims. If you're a Muslim listening, this is not an indictment on all Muslims. But those that were coming in did not want to be part of the society, did not want to get productive jobs in their midst, did not want to assimilate. This is what the Hungarian government was saying. We're shutting the door, basically.
You put up a fence and you're not coming in. It's part of a larger pushback.
Now please hear me. There are many, many different things going on here. and in some cases there may be xenophobia. and a radical nationalism that fears the outsiders. And there may be various hatreds being appealed to, be it a white supremacist attitude or particular cultural supremacy, whatever.
But by and large, that's not the case. It's not the case here in America. Where we have not had a problem with Muslims living among us for many, many decades, for centuries. That's not been the problem. Mm-hmm.
