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Now let's get into the show. Talking about money and finances on the Clearview Today show. And you know something? Earning money is not a bad thing, but you got to ask yourself, how exactly am I earning it? Understanding how to do that and more coming up right now on the Clearview Today Show.
You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Thanks for joining us for another great conversation right here in the Cleaveview Today studio with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah. If you're listening for the very first time today, we want to say welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us. And we're going to let you know exactly who's talking to you today. Dr.
Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, Dr. Shah. Welcome. It's good to be here. Amen.
It's good to see you. Good to see you. We've been talking a lot about money. We have been talking about finances. Great discussion on yesterday's episode, and we're going to continue that discussion today, figuring out how we think about money as believers.
You know, that's a sticking point for a lot of people. I am chronically online. I'm trying to get better about that. But one thing I have been able to suss out from all of the very wise commenters online is that a plethora of wisdom online. You can't earn.
A large sum of money without abusing people to do it. You know, that's the one thing that I've I've ever learned from the internet is it is impossible to be financially successful without exploiting others, especially others who are weaker than you. Dr. Shah thoughts.
So money is like a A pie. It's like a pie.
So if people come and get it, get their piece, then there's none left for you. There's none left for you. No pie for you.
So the billionaires, the trillionaires, and the quadrillionaires, they've all taken pretty much all nothing left for you on the table. Nothing at all. Like you can tell I have missed so many meals. All the dessert got snatched up, and I didn't get a single crumb. I'm saying this with blue all over my mouth.
My kids did that the other day. We had some chocolate or whatever, and Gavin had a bunch of chocolate over his mouth. And I heard Holden go, I didn't get any. And I turned around to look at him and it's mirroring all over his face. I said, get your little behind.
And that sums up what a lot of people believe about money. That's true. That's what a lot of people believe about success. It's what a lot of people believe about opportunity. Even in church ministry, they think because you're doing well, you've done took it all.
Yeah, and that's horribly wrong. Not only is it wrong in the secular world, but it's also wrong in the church or ecclesial world, where it's not. that money is a zero-sum game or it's like a pizza pie. That if enough people come in and get their peace before you get there, that there's nothing left for you. That is flat out wrong.
Right. Yes, there have been times where Everybody picked up their pieces and nothing was left. But what did most people do who are successful? They made a new pizza pie. in a way that nobody previously had even imagined.
And started their own economy. And that's what we're supposed to do. That's right. You know, you even mentioned that yesterday. Is once you put God first, you just got to start working hard.
That's it. And money will follow you, and success will follow you. And I think I've seen that. Come to life at Clearview over the past 13 years that I've been here is that it's not just working hard, but it's also just working smart, finding out what your congregation values, what the people outside of this church value, and then presenting it to them. That's right.
You have to definitely be, you know, care about how you're spending money. You need to care about how you save money. Those things are not wrong to do. Be wise, be prudent. Having said that, If you sit there Kind of obsessing and dependent on that little.
Cash heap, you will be paralyzed because you'll spend most of your time just guarding it. Yeah, like a nest egg, you'll be guarding that nest egg, and that's not enough. It's not enough in the secular world. It's not enough in the ecclesial world. You have to say, okay, we have this.
Rainy Day Fond. We're trying to do better. We're going to save our money. We're not going to be frivolous with our money. We're going to make sure we save some and have some self-control and be patient on what we buy and how we buy things.
Okay, great.
Now, what? Yeah. You got to work hard. You got to work smart. You got to understand the market.
And by that, I mean your congregation or your people or whatever. But the only problem is that's hard. And I don't want to do that. I don't want to put the thought in.
So it's a lot easier and it makes me feel better to say, no, the reason you're successful is probably, I don't have any evidence, but you probably took advantage of some people. Yeah. And that's flat out wrong. We talked on yesterday's episode about the difference between saving and hoarding. And that was a great discussion.
If you missed that yesterday, make sure you go back and watch it. But we're continuing the discussion today because it's so important. It's so vital for us to understand how to think about money. I mean, just like we've been joking about a little bit, people point the finger when people are successful. You must have done something wrong, or you must have done something kind of shady or underhanded in order to get where you are.
And that's not true.
Now, some people have. Don't misunderstand me. In fact, throughout history, there have been people who did things underhandedly and robbed people. And manipulated people and intimidated people and stole money. I get it.
But that's not necessarily the rule. That's not how it works.
So let's go back to James, James chapter 5, verse 2. Your riches are corrupted. Your garments are moth eaten, your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you, and will eat your flesh like fire. In James's time, A person could display wealth in three ways. Food Clothing.
Precious metals. And James uses all three in these examples if you pay attention. He says, Where your riches are corrupted. He's referring to gai uh grain. Why green?
Because grain rots, it corrupts over time, metal doesn't corrupt. Grain corrupts. Clothes don't corrupt. You say, Well, I think they do. He's going to talk about clothes in a minute.
But this is about grain. Why? Because that grain sat in storehouses. And over time It it corrupted. became infected.
And it it was useless. I I can see what he's saying. Like, while there's people out here hungry. Yes, you sat on this going bad that you can't even eat. Right.
And now you're wondering. What happened? What happened? And you're trying to guard it even more, but that's not what he was supposed to do. You're supposed to feed, you're supposed to help.
And I'm not saying everything has to be given out free. But you could have done something to invest in other people. But you didn't, and now your riches, talking about grain, food. has been corrupted. Yeah.
Second example is about Clothing. Your clothes have become moth eaten. He's referring to the outer garments that was kind of a symbol of status. Why not? A roach will bother you.
and leave his droppings everywhere. A cricket will bug us with noise, a mosquito will bite us. And you can feel that sting and you know start scratching and you see the welt come up. But a moth is so subtle He does his thing behind the scene, and before you know it, your clothes are messed up. When millions don't have a change of clothing, Go good clothes are becoming moth eaten.
By hanging in our closets. I've got such a visceral memory. Tell me if you guys have this memory too, but rest in peace, Granny. I know wherever you are, I know you're looking down right now. My grandmother's closet smelled so powerfully of mothballs every time I opened it up.
We used to, because we used to, all the grandchildren would play hide and seek over there. I used to go in there and just shut the door, and instantly I knew I have made a mistake. There were mothballs in that closet so bad, I can still smell it to this day. Grandma, stinking them away, just stinking them away. Grandma and grandpa's closet.
I could round the corner and smell it before I even got to their closet. I was like, golly, moths, and no one else is going to go near your clothes. Grandparents' closets just had that smell. Yeah. Mothballs.
Yeah, your parents probably didn't let moths get into their clothes. But they had mothballs. Oh, for real? Yeah. I mean, well, you know, the story back in 2000, we took our whole family to go see my parents in India.
And the whole family at the time was just me, Nicole, and our two girls. And Abigail was like maybe two, if two. And so she was born in 1999. This is 2000, so not even quite two, I would say maybe a year. And so we went to visit my parents and Abigail got into their clothes closet and ate some mothballs.
No, I didn't know that story. I think I told you all that. I remember the story of her locking herself in the closet. Yeah, I do remember you telling me. She locked herself in, and nobody.
But she also ate some mothballs. And so we had to call the doctor. And they called the poison control people. And they're like, well, just watch her for a while. Don't let her sleep for a little bit.
She'll be okay. Did anything else chaotic happen on that trip? My parents had a dog who was like very ferocious because dogs over there are not for like pets. Right. Uh nowadays they are, but back in the day uh they were not pets, they were Protection.
Guard dogs. Guard dogs. And so one night we were in the kitchen, and there was this screen porch door. And our my parents' dog came up to the door and there was a porch, you know, door. Yeah.
And Abigail sort of went close to him thinking, He's like our dog back home. And he was like, and she was terrified.
So, anyways, I was going to say, I don't know how we get back to James from here. Yeah, but don't eat mothballs. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. That's gross.
That's not good. But the third illustration here that James uses describing the rich who waste their wealth away is regarding precious metal. Mm-hmm. He says your gold and silver are corroded, means they have become tarnished.
Now, we know that gold and silver do not rust. What James is communicating here is that gold and silver may last forever, but they cannot buy you things that will last forever. That's right. So, hanging on to gold and silver for personal gain will only bring corrosion in your life. That's true.
In your life. It can't buy you anything that's going to satisfy you. Right. You know what I mean? It might entertain you for a little while.
And I've done that too, where I've I would buy something thinking this is gonna this is gonna fix me. Yeah, and it's s silly stuff too. A journal. Right. Like a like a I don't even know.
Silly things that you think this is the thing I've been missing this whole time.
Well, it's also interesting the pictures that James uses because some remove parts of good things and some add bad parts to good things. Like corrosion is things that are caked on and that are added to those metals, versus like moth eaten, those are pieces that have gone away. Rotted grain, I mean, those are things that have fallen away.
So there's this kind of ebb and flow of things that are brought in and out of your life, but none of it's good. I think all of these things too, like even if it's just like actual money or jewels or all these things, the security it brings is false. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think I'm going to get, if I can just get X amount of dollars, $10,000, $20,000, whatever it is, I'll be satisfied. I'll feel safe.
And then I can start leveraging, start moving. But it's an illusion. It never actually comes. Because I remember, like, no matter how much we saved up. Like trying to buy this house, I never felt like, okay, now we're good.
Never. Let's take a quick break. Guys, John here from Clearview Today. Before we jump in, quick shout out to today's sponsor, Mighty Muscadine. If you've been looking for a natural way to support your health, these guys are doing it right.
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So thank you for that. Thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring this episode. Let's jump in. Yeah, or constantly living with a sense of guilt. Yeah.
Oh, we shouldn't have bought that. Oh, we shouldn't have done this. Oh, we shouldn't have done that. And that's not good either. Yeah, there is a certain level of you're trying to buy a house.
That's not the right time to say, I'm going to go buy this Corvette because I always wanted to have this Corvette. You know, I deserve that. I want to have that feeling of being young again or something like that. Yeah, yeah. No, then you need counseling.
We're not talking about that. But if you say, hey, we took the family out to get pizza, or we went on a one-day trip to the beach just to get away.
Okay. Yeah. That's not enough to say, you know, we are such. Horrible managers of money. We just don't know what we're doing.
I'm just, I don't even know what to do anymore. No, that is. That's Not good. That's not healthy. That's not biblical.
That's not godly. That's just feeling. overly guilty because you are under pressure.
So reject that thought. Ask God to help you with that thought. Ask him to fill you with peace and courage and renewed sense of determination to step out and start doing things. Don't live in guilt and shame. Don't let that happen to you.
You think that applies to ministry as well? Oh, yeah. Like people, like people, there are churches who they have big dreams, but they won't move forward because it costs a little bit of money. Yeah, they're afraid. And yes, we need to be careful in how we spend money.
Don't waste money. Don't go out there and just constantly throw money away. Don't do that. But then there are times you have to invest, there are times you have to buy things. Do you need to buy the best all the time?
No. But does that mean you don't buy anything at all, completely shut down? Maybe for a little while you may want to. But if you stay like that, very soon there'll be a spirit of despair and hopelessness will come upon you, a spirit of fear will come upon you, and you'll just get paralyzed. You feel like, no, we can't do that, we can't do that.
And then, since you're not doing anything, since you're operating from a place of fear. Then everything now is defensive. Let's not try that. That's too risky.
So, yes, don't waste money, but at the same time, And don't lock yourself down in a defensive posture. Do something. Try something. Don't live in fear. Try something new.
Try something big. Create a program. Have a big day. That that you are inviting the community to come. Things like that.
You know, one of the things that uh we started talking about as we We're Entering into this new chapter of Clearview's life, right? We went through this thing a couple of years ago where it's like we're renewing our vision. Where we've, you know, we, a lot of the original vision that we cast, God has met those goals for us. Let's cast a new vision. Let's broaden out.
And one of the things we started talking about was: how do we now start bringing money in? Do you have any advice or any encouragement for people who might be in a similar place where they're like, I don't want to feel guilty about the church bringing money in, whether it's through radio shows or whether it's through advertising or whether it's through whatever means, I want to generate revenue for this church so that we can continue going doing good things, but I feel guilty talking about it. I feel weird sharing that vision with my team. Yeah, no, and I totally understand that.
Well, what you need to do is you have to try out. Try out for a period and say, okay, let's see how this is coming along. Everyone is trying to make a buck.
So once you try out with somebody or something, then you have to come back and say, is that really working out? Is it in our favor? Or we're just being a blessing to that person or that company or that business. And if you, after a good prayerful discussion with a reason, with thought. With discernment, you say, hmm.
Let's try this somewhere else. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, absolutely. Nothing wrong with taking a. Maybe you know.
Account of where you are now, has that really that that investment, has it really worked out for us? And you have a big enough sample to say Yeah, it did not quite work out. Let's come back together. Let's reevaluate. Maybe let's invest that money somewhere, or let's put it back.
In our In our treasury, and let's find a better time. There's nothing wrong with. With doing that. Yeah. I hope that makes sense.
I'm not sure. Yeah, no, it does. It does, I think. Discussing, re-evaluating. This is all part of growth.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, there are people. In business, who say, you know, I want to generate revenue, I want to generate income because I believe that my company has value, and nobody has any problem with that. I think in the church, We're so we think that, but we're scared to say it.
We're scared to act on it. And even me, like these past couple of years, as we're thinking about this show, does the show generate money? Does the show generate enough money to justify its existence? Do we feel guilty asking people to donate? And the people who do donate to the show, I want to say a huge thank you.
But Why do we have this hesitation? Why do we feel like the church needs to be exempt from that?
Well, people often will raise this objection when talking about money in church. And Dr. Shaw, maybe you can speak to this for a little bit. Is the example of the money lenders or the money changers in the temple? That Jesus goes in and he flips the tables, and people are like, see?
Money has no place in the church.
Now, we can take up the tithe, we can take up the offering, but other than that, we shouldn't have any kind of exchange, any sort of commerce happening in the church building. Yeah, that has nothing to do with that. When Jesus did what he did in the temple, You have made my father's house a prayer, a den of thieves. And he turned over the money changers' tables and drove out the animals. He was fulfilling.
Prophecies. One of them was in Isaiah, I believe, 56. Another one I'm forgetting but one of the minor prophets. He was fulfilling prophecy, or maybe Jeremiah. He was fulfilling prophecy.
I mean, he was verbatim giving us the verse. You have made my father's house a house of prayer into a den of thieves. And that's actually mentioned in Isaiah 56, I think, is verse 7. And Even after noting that We still ask those things like, well, is it allowed to have money changing in the church? It's like, huh?
Yeah. Yeah, he messed up. He was. Telling them By cleaning out the temple, he was saying Jeremiah 7, verse 11, but it's also Isaiah 56. He was telling those people that, hey, I am the one.
I'm the one who's come. To purify your worship, I'm here to get things straight. Yeah. Yeah. So, so would people be amiss if they say, like, so Jesus didn't, I mean, he meant it, but it also had a higher purpose.
Much higher purpose, which was a fulfillment of prophecy, like Isaiah 56, verse 7.
So, Jesus turning over those money tables, it's not that, like, hey, I'm just fulfilling prophecy. I don't actually mean this. Like, the people who were changing money in the temple were doing a bad thing. Yeah, but it was not the same thing that, like, if you have a fish fryer, or if you're trying to do a fundraiser or something like that, or you have a. Like we have a store where people come and buy books and things like that.
That's not what he was talking about here. See, Isaiah 56, verse 7, even them I will bring to my holy mountain. Who is them? The Gentiles and make them joyful in my house of prayer. their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar.
For my house shall be called a house of prayer for All nations. All nations. It was about all nations, meaning Gentiles are also welcome.
So when he did that cleansing, some people say that he was cleaning out the court of the Gentiles. That's what they say. Maybe. I used to believe that, but I'm not quite sure now. Because during David's time when the temple was built.
There was no such distinction between the court of the men, court of the women, court of the gentiles. It was all just one temple. Right. Gotcha. It's the time of of Herod's temple That there were these distinctions.
So would Jesus take the existing condition? created by a Hasmonean king. To Teach a lesson? Maybe, or could it be that he was just saying what he says here: for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations. By cleaning out, he was saying cleaning out all Okay.
The temple so that all people could come in. And it was more about that Jesus came to deliver all people, right? All people. See, right here in verse 6, Isaiah 56, verse 6, also the sons of the foreigner. You know, I think about our slogan as Cleaver Church, our mission, really, where it's to lead all people into a life-changing.
And I wonder now, I mean, I guess I can just ask you: is that that was intentional? Is that what you were thinking of when you chose that? To lead all people. All peoples. Yeah.
It doesn't matter what color you are, it doesn't matter how much money you make. It doesn't matter which part of the world you come from, young, old. Male, female, all peoples. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
You know, talking about money, talking about ministry, because we don't have to sit here and convince you guys that it takes money to do the things that we're doing and it takes money to have a successful ministry. Dr. Shah, talk a little bit about how, you know, as Clearview, we, we. I don't know how to really say it. We don't have to fundraise.
God has put the right people in our lives at the right time and the right supporters online with shows like this to help do this. But other churches may feel frustrated because it's like, I don't have that avenue. Or at least I don't have it right now. What can I do? I don't want to be paralyzed because of lack of money, lack of funds.
Well, I would say it's not like we don't fundraise. We do fundraise, but we do it differently. We do it not by saying, This is our fundraising week, or I want us to pledge this amount of money and that amount of money. We used to do that, and I realized our audience was not built that way. Uh so Yes, we fundraise, but we fundraise by creating Experiences for people where they grow in Christ, where their children find.
meaning and And Wonderful experiences in growing with their friends and walking with Christ and learning the Bible. And when people have those experiences, and I'm not talking about experience in the sense of just emotional experience, but experience in the sense of fulfillment, when they have that fulfillment, they give this support. And of course, we do say that. We don't need to put things in autopilot. That's one thing I feel like sometimes we do, and it's to our own detriment.
We need to think through about everything we say. Beforehand, plan things. in how we're going to open worship. How we're going to announce in the end, how am I going to take the stage and what I say and how I say, everything has to be done prayerfully. and strategically To number one, glorify Jesus Christ.
And then, number two, engage the body to serve. But we should do everything possible. To give people those experiences that God wants them to have. And then Encourage them. to give.
Yeah. If this has helped you If this has changed the trajectory of your life. Then please give. Yeah. Please support.
We need your support. We need your help. When you see needs, don't sit back. Give. Please give.
That's what we do. Amen. You know, that's what I encourage churches and pastors to do. Of course, if you want to sell chicken plates, if you want to. Wash cars, which are you just did?
Great, great, please do those. But create experiences that will draw. people closer to Christ and His Word. And in the process, find the fulfillment that God wants them to have through His Word. And then the power of the Holy Spirit give generously.
Give consistently. And give joyfully. Secular business people have figured this out is that to get people to give or to buy or to whatever, you have to fill a need. And the church, I think, we don't realize that we are filling the biggest need that there is.
Well, it creates a much more sustainable and substantial inspiration to give. I mean, it's much more than just, hey, you know, donate this or, hey, please support this. It inspires people. And in that inspiration, they're like, this matters. I want to support this.
I want to be a part of this. And maybe I'm not going to be up on the stage, but I can financially support with that. And I feel convicted too, because I think we as a church, we need to feel convicted that we don't really believe the people need this. You know what I'm saying? I think a lot of a lot, we saw that in 2020 where a lot of churches were shutting down and saying, you know, we're not essential.
And I think at the time, at the time, I thought, man, you guys are just weak. You're lazy. I'm starting to believe people really believe that about the church, that we're not actually giving people what they don't actually need what we're. What we're supplying. That's right.
And that's to our own detriment. It shouldn't be like that. We are supplying a great need, which is to draw people closer to Christ. One thing I've noticed that we strayed away from our passage, James chapter 5. But for our listeners, our viewers, we'll get back into it and talk about money matters.
Yes, that's right. But we sort of went into the context of church and money and expenses and growth. But I hope that is beneficial to you. Yes. I hope it will help you support your church.
And or if you're a pastor, it will help you raise funds to reach more people with the gospel. And you know, if this was a three-hour podcast like you guys are continually asking for, we'd have no problem getting back in. But unfortunately, we are out of time. But make sure you join us for tomorrow's episode as we continue this conversation on your money, how to handle it, and how to handle it God's way. And if this show has been a blessing to you, just like we've said on this show, you can give and support this show by visiting Abhadanshah.com forward slash.
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