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Whether you're leading a company, teaching a class, managing a home, or serving your community, God has entrusted you with influence. Today, Dr. Amy Sherman joins us to explain vocational stewardship and how our work can contribute to the flourishing of others. And then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000.
This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, our guest today is my friend Dr. Amy Sherman, author of Agents for Flourishing and Kingdom Calling, which won Christianity Today's 2013 Book of the Year Award. Through her work on vocational stewardship, Amy helps believers see their daily work as a means of seeking the common good and participating in God's redemptive mission in the world. Amy, great to have you here on the program.
Well, it's my pleasure, Rob. Good to be with you. Amy, you have an article in our latest issue of Faithful Steward magazine where you introduce a concept that may be new to some of our listeners, this idea of vocational stewardship. Many of us are familiar with financial stewardship, but I'd love for you to unpack that a bit. What do you mean by vocational stewardship?
Sure.
Well, just like God has given us all of our financial assets. He's also given us what I would call vocational assets, right? We all have skills and. knowledge, networks, various positions that we hold. um that that the lord has made possible in our lives we have influence and we're to use all those things for his Purposes, right?
Every person has this forms of vocational power.
Some of us deploy them through paid work, other people through volunteering or working in the home. And the idea behind vocational stewardship is this understanding that any of this work It's not just a way to earn money, but it... We're to use these various dimensions of our vocational power as a platform for reflecting the kingdom and advancing the kingdom. What an incredible picture and a helpful distinction. Amy, you also point out that vocational stewardship is not only how we do our work, our character, our integrity, even our attitude, but also what our work actually contributes.
So talk about that for a moment. Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, I think embodying a Christ-like character, of course, is a vital part of what it means to. Steward our vocations, right? I mean, we're called to be honest workers and compassionate workers and the like, but vocational stewardship. Kind of presses us to look more seriously at the substance of our work, right? Vocational stewardship involves asking questions like, You know, what are some of the specific ways that my work can reflect God's heart.
for justice and beauty and Restoration, what are some of the ways that my work could contribute to human flourishing? Mm, it's a beautiful picture. And I know you root this idea in a biblical vision of God's kingdom.
So without getting too technical, how should that future hope shape the way we think about our work today? Yeah, well. You know, scripture tells us that like the grand biblical narrative, right? And it gives us this picture. of the future consummation of God's kingdom where we behold This renewed world in which there's no suffering, there's no corruption, there's no death.
Instead, we have this glorious picture of of a world marked by peace and Intimacy with God, a world marked by justice and abundance and wholeness. community, et cetera. And vocational stewardship asks the question.
Well, how could my work today? Give other people Just a small foretaste of that future reality. Yeah, it's an incredible picture, and it really does unpack for us this biblical narrative, these movements, if you will, that we see in God's word around work as it was originally designed. And then, of course, how it was corrupted. But now, this hopeful picture of how we and our work can be redeemed.
And to your point, then give us a foretaste of what our work will be in the future. We'll talk about that more after the break. We'll also talk about the practical steps you can take to lean into this idea through the work that God has given you today. Joining me today is Dr. Amy Sherman.
She's written an incredible article on vocational stewardship in the latest issue of our Faithful Steward magazine. If you want to learn how you can get a copy, go to faithfy.com/slash give. Back with much more right after this. Stay with us. Every day on Faith and Finance, we hear from believers who want to follow Jesus faithfully with their finances.
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As a ministry, CHM allows you to share the burden of medical bills with other believers while also saving you money. Join CHM today and ditch traditional health insurance by visiting chministries.org/slash FaithFi. That's chministries.org/slash faith fi. Ah! Your work is not just a way to make a living, it's also a way to love your neighbor.
We're talking today about vocational stewardship. I'm joined by my friend Dr. Amy Sherman. She's the author of the incredibly acclaimed book, Kingdom Calling. And through her work on vocational stewardship, she helps believers see their daily work as a means of seeking the common good and participating in God's redemptive mission in the world.
And Amy, in just a moment, we're going to get into the practical application of all of this. What does this mean for our listeners as they show up to work each day? But this really fits in to this story we see of how our work is a part of God's creation that's clearly on display in His Word. Isn't that true? Absolutely.
We are called to steward and develop this world that he's given us. and also to join with him in the work of renewal that he's doing in this creation. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. Give us some practical examples of what vocational stewardship looks like in everyday work. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'm thinking, for example, of a business owner that I know. And she really wanted to give a lot of thought to what would it look like to give her employees. you know, a foretaste of the kingdom, you know, reality of compassion. And a lot of her employees are single moms. And so the way that she lived into that was She worked really hard to create flexible schedules for these employees so that they could better care for their kids and you know attend key events at the at the kids schools Yeah.
And another example I can think of is this architect that I know. Um who works hard to kind of educate her clients on how to choose building materials that are, you know, low in various toxins. And as an architect, she she tries to create really energy efficient designs, you know, for whatever the projects are. And in these various ways, what she's doing, Rob, is she is promoting the kingdom foretastes of health and wholeness and care for creation. It's a beautiful picture.
And I love that it's, again, not just showing up with character, which we should do, and integrity and, you know, being good workers, using our time well, but the actual work itself can really be a reflection of our king. And we can lean into doing that in a way that loves and serves others well. You know, as we think about this, Amy, this strikes me that, you know, regardless of someone's job title or season of life or whether they're paid for the work that they do, this applies to really every listener today, doesn't it? Oh, absolutely. Like you say, paid or unpaid work, it's It's any of the ways that you are showing up and making a contribution, right?
Maybe you're a teacher, maybe you're a nurse, maybe you're a business owner, maybe you're a retiree, maybe you're staying at home and raising children. But in all of these different vocations, you have various assets. And skills and knowledge that God has given you, you have influence in these spheres. This idea of vocational stewardship really is about asking Wherever it is that God has placed me, how can I use what he's given me to serve others, to reflect his character, and to offer the people around me these foretastes of the coming kingdom of God? Yeah, I love that.
It really broadens the conversation as we think about asking a different question about our influence and how we can reflect God's heart in the space that he has us in. Let's bring this into the financial space. You talk about investing as a form of vocational stewardship, which may be a new idea, frankly, for some of our listeners. Share with us about that a bit.
Well, I think Rob that sometimes we just think about investing as a way to like grow our wealth and prepare for the future. And that's part of it. But at the core... Um Investing is really about deploying capital. into businesses businesses that Um You know, they shape their communities, they shape the culture.
And so, when we are investing, what we're really doing is we're helping to determine which companies. Are going to grow and thrive. Yeah, it's exactly right. And that's why I'm so excited. I know you are as well about just the growth in this whole space of God's people getting to a place where maybe it's normal for them to think about how their faith and their values intersect with their ownership of companies that should be providing goods and services that are good and that serve people.
Amen. Yeah. And that's a whole new idea, right? Absolutely. Absolutely.
And, you know, it's legit to consider financial returns, right? As investors. That's part of what it means to practice good stewardship. But. but we do need to be asking questions like you know what is the company producing how is it treating employees um is is the company contributing to the well-being of communities and And also to get kind of a handle on how does this firm view profit, right?
Is profit a means to an end? Right, the end of serving people, or is profit just the ultimate goal? And you know, those are, I think, some of the questions that believers. Need to be asking about what their investments are actually supporting. Yeah.
In the same way that we've encouraged folks to take a practical, simple step toward vocational stewardship, what would that similar practical step be around investing for someone who is hearing this for the first time? Yeah. Well, it can feel a little overwhelming, and it is good to kind of break it down. I think it begins by. Just starting to become more aware of what you own, what are the companies that are represented in your portfolio.
And then you can begin to look for opportunities of ways that You can align the investments that you're making with the values that you hold. And that can happen in even small ways. And I think this is something that kind of it unfolds over time. It's a journey. We don't have to sort of do all of this at once, but we're taking several steps in a row.
Yeah. Well, and what's so incredible about this, Amy, whether we're talking about our investments or our vocational stewardship, as we think about God's redemptive purposes in the world, this is not just a place where we're being formed into the image of Christ, and we are, but our workplaces and our investments are now a primary place where we can embody and proclaim the good news of the gospel to others and love our neighbors. I mean, that's a whole different idea, isn't it?
Well, it really is. You know, God really, really deeply cares about our work. And, you know, we want to be good disciples. And the fact of it is, we spend a huge amount of our time doing our work. And so we want that discipleship to be reflected in the way that we go about our work.
Yeah, that's well said. We've got just about 45 seconds left. Tie a bow on this for us. What encouragement would you offer to someone who's just beginning to see their work and even their investments through this lens of vocational stewardship?
Well, you know, I'd say, hey, your work deeply, deeply matters to God. And God has placed you where he has for a reason. You're doing work that he's given you to do. and be intentional because even just the small choices that you make can be opportunities for you to reflect. Christ-like character and the reflect Kingdom values and to offer people foretaste, right, of the kingdom and really make a difference in the lives of those around you.
That is well said. Folks, God has entrusted each of us with influence and vocational stewardship means using that influence to reflect his kingdom and seek the flourishing of others. Amy, thanks for your time today. It's been a pleasure. Our guest today has been Dr.
Amy Sherman. She's written an incredible article on vocational stewardship in our latest issue of Faithful Steward. Back with your questions after this. Stick around. We are grateful for support from Timothy Plan.
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This institution is not federally insured. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. All right, let's dive into your questions. Today, lines are open, 800-525-7000. Let's go to Texas to begin.
Jim, go ahead. My father-in-law has some double E bonds that matured In uh twenty-three And so they're just sitting there earning nothing. But he has a very substantial income, and so he was going to simply give those to us. And let S. Cash the man and then we would Dan Reed.
Uh tax liability for that. Is that something that can be done Yeah, so what is his situation currently? He was going to gift them to you or at death? Either way, we were trying to figure out the best way. He is a.
ninety nine years old and hospice. But uh So he's Probably going to live another year or two there. I Mind is totally intact.
So we're in good shape for that. But we just didn't know whether I mean, his retirement incomes make him have to pay taxes as it is pretty heavily. Yes, got it. All right.
So, yeah, a couple of thoughts here, just based on this. You know, these have already matured, so they're not earning any more interest. And because he has a higher income now and only expects to live a couple of years, if he holds them when he passes away, the bonds, of course, become part of his estate. And then the heirs will owe the income tax on all the accrued interest when they cash them in. That tax does not disappear at death.
The executor can choose to report the interest on his final tax return instead of pushing it to the heirs. But either way, someone's going to pay the tax.
So since they're no longer growing, they're really not helping him financially. And if his income is high, but the heirs are in lower brackets, it can make sense to let the heirs inherit and pay the tax when they redeem them. You know, if he prefers to simplify the estate and avoid that burden on them, then he could cash them in now, pay the tax himself, and gift the net proceeds.
So, you know, the bonds aren't going to earn another penny. It's really about who pays the tax, either him now or you and the other heirs later. And again, if if they're in if you all are in lower tax brackets, holding and letting you all inherit them could make some sense. But I think there's really no benefit to keeping them, at least financially. It's really a tax timing question at the end of the day.
Very good. Incidentally, I went to one of the kingdom advisors and he was incredibly good at uh giving us some really good advice. He just didn't know exactly on the double E bonds he wasn't up on those particular things. And so But anyway, he was excellent. We're going to use him.
Oh, I'm so glad to hear that, Jim. Thanks for that testimony. That's really encouraging. Yeah, you know, I think at the end of the day, on these, you know, the original owner is the one who owes the tax on all that interest, even if they're given away.
So I think, you know, that gifting does not eliminate that tax.
So I think at this point, it really is just a function of who is going to pay the tax, him or you all, and that should drive the decision. Great to hear from you, sir. Delighted you found a certified kingdom advisor there in Texas. By the way, folks, again, if you'd like to find a CKA in your area, just go to faith5.com. Right there at the top of the page, it says find a CKA.
Let's finish up today in Mississippi. Brian, how can I help? Hey, Rob, how you doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks for your call.
So the question I have is my company has a given us the option to move some of our four hundred one K's into private investment. comes And I didn't know if you knew anything about that or had any advice or There's like a 2% or 1.99% fee for my financial gadget. to do it, obviously, 'cause you know, they gotta make some money about it. I didn't know if you thought that was a good idea or I should just keep it in the funds that I have now. Yes.
So the fee, is that to an advisor that you've selected and that's his fee? Or is this where is that coming from? I think that's through the advisers. Because that's what it's it's through Vanguard. That's who our four hundred one K's are through.
And they said that we can move it, but it's a Yeah. Two percent. Um management fee.
Okay.
So it's not an in-service rollover to an advisor of your choosing. It's kind of option A is leave it. Option B is there's kind of a predefined management option inside the same institution. Is that right? Mm-hmm.
No, I can move it to my financial person.
Okay.
And then he can invest it to wherever he, you know, whatever's. obviously best for uh for for my wife and I.
Okay.
Which would allow, you know, open up more funds for to get into versus the limits that they generally put on us. Yeah. And the 1.99, does that happen either way, or is that what your advisor would charge? Where does that come in? That Happens, it doesn't happen either way.
If I leave it, Through Vanguard, through where it is now. nothing happens. And but if I move it over to my advisor, Um they do a one point nine five percent fee.
Okay, yeah. And how much do you have in the 401k? Uh it's about one point one right now.
Okay.
I mean, 1.99, so 2% on a million-dollar plus account is really high.
So, I would want to know more about that because I think that would be worth going back to your advisor. I mean, at face value, I like the idea of you rolling it out, having more flexibility to choose the investments beyond the limited menu in the 401k. I mean, that's generally a good thing, especially with a sizable account like you've got. And if your company is allowing that in-service rollover, that's a great option. That fee is tripping me up.
That's pretty high. It's in fact really high for that amount of investable assets.
So, I'd want to talk to your advisor, not me, but if I were you, I'd want to talk to my advisor about that.
Something closer to 1%, maybe 1.25% on a million plus is more realistic. I think on the high end, one and a half.
So, I think you ought to talk a bit more about that. That is definitely on the high end of the industry.
Okay, that's fine. Maybe I said it wrong. Maybe I'll have to get some better information and give it to you next time.
Okay, yeah, be happy to tackle that and love for you to call back. But assuming his fee is in order, you know, and I think that's less than one and a half, probably closer to one, then yes, as long as it's an in-service rollover, there's no tax event. I like, generally speaking, if you've got a trusted relationship with an advisor who's got a good track record. It'll give him a lot more options in terms of how he manages it. And I think that's better than the limited menu inside the 401k.
So hopefully that gives you what you need, Brian. Thanks for your call today. We appreciate you all being with us today. Thanks for your calls, your kind remarks about the program. We can serve you further.
Check out FaithFy.com. Big thanks to Jim, Adam, Devin, and everybody here at FaithFi. We'll see you tomorrow. Faith in Finance is provided by FaithFi and listeners like you.
