An Important New Book on Reaching Out to the Cults, then Dr. Brown Catches Up with the News and Your Questions

Would you like to know how to reach Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and others in the cults?

Well, stay tuned. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the Line of Fire. Michael Brown flew in from Germany last night.

All is well. By God's grace, I am ready to roll. And we are going to have a great discussion with Dr. Mark Stengler and his son, Mark Stengler Jr., their new book. Cult shock The book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Don't Want You to Read.

Josh McDowell says about this book. CultShock is a great apologetic resource to give you confidence and knowledge to answer many cults with truth and logic. And in a moment, I'll tell you how you can get a copy of this book sent to you as our guest. gift. If you have a question If you have a question you'd like to ask.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, if you yourself are Jehovah's Witnesses or a Mormon, and you'd like to challenge the position of my guests, the phone lines will be open through this entire interview. Here's the number to call: 866-34TRUTH. 866-348788. Yeah.

Now, I know there's a lot going on in the news today. The Comey hearings. FBI former FBI Director James Comey. I have no idea. If he's telling the truth, or has been telling the truth, or the President has been telling the truth, I have no idea.

Who's been telling the truth? and and the leaks and what's real and what's not.

So my prayer is God bring the truth. to light. God Bring the truth to light. That's my prayer. In the second hour, I will talk with you more about Islam.

And yes, There are genuine peace-loving Muslims that are sincere and devout. And there are genuine, violence-loving Muslims who are sincere and devout. We'll talk about that. in the second hour. But in this first hour, we're going to focus on the cults.

and reaching the cults With the message of Jesus, I'm going to give you a little background to my guests and then we are going to dive into the discussion. Again, the new book. Cult shock, the book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons don't want you to read. It was just a few months back I was ministering in California. I was speaking at an Israel conference with a number of key speakers from around the States and from Israel, and some former Muslims as well.

Powerful testimonies as well. And I met a medical doctor there, nathropathic medical doctor, Mark Stengler. And he's written 30 books, is very well known in the naturopathic medical profession, some best-selling books he's read. We began to interact and found out that he and his son. Had a great love for apologetics, his son Mark Jr., student at Liberty University, had a great love for reaching occults.

A great love for getting the truth of the gospel out and would go on the streets and reach out and interact with others. And uh together they wrote this book. called Cult Shock, sent me a copy of it, and I was thrilled with it. It's comprehensive. It's footnoted.

All the points are backed up, but it is clear. It's understandable, it's useful, it contains techniques. And here are the common attacks that you're going to get hit with. And what about the big subjects of controversy? The deity of Jesus, the Trinity, what's the summary of Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness belief?

So it is a really great practical book. And all this month. As you sow into our ministry with your generous gift of any size, we're sending this out as our special thank you gift. We come back. The Stenglers, Mark Sr.

and Mark Jr., will join us. This is going to be an eye-opening, edifying interview. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire. Michael Brown, fresh back from three and a half, four delightful days of ministry in Italy and Germany. Homeless week, then back to Israel and Germany next week.

We should be broadcasting from those countries as well. And been really looking forward to today's interview with Dr. Mark Stengler and Mark Stengler Jr.

So for simplicity, For simplicity, I will address them as Mark Sr. and Mark Jr. But it's great to have you on the air, gentlemen, as we talk about your new book, Cult Shock. Mark, welcome. You know what I just did, Mark Jr.?

I think I accidentally cut off your dad, Mark Sr., but we'll start with you, Mark. Welcome to the line of fire. Oh, thank you so much. It's great to be with you. Tell me, how did you and your dad get this interest in reaching the cults, reaching out to those Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, others?

Right, so when I was younger uh I wasn't actually a Christian yet. My dad would often have the colts over at our house and engage with them. And he'd actually asked me to join in the conversation. But I wasn't really interested. Like I said, I wasn't born again yet.

So when I became born again, I would participate in street evangelism and of course I would run into the Jehovah's Witnesses with a stand on the streets or Mormons on their bikes. And I would engage with them. And I would use some of my dad's expertise when I was witnessing to them. And so then we started witnessing to them together. And we talked to them enough times that we could basically tell you verbatim what verses they would use to attack the divinity of Christ, what their leaders have taught them in regards to the historical Christianity being corrupted.

And we were able to combat all that with biblical truth and history. And we thought, hey, this is a huge gap in the body of Christ. We talked to many Christians who have seen these cults before, but have never actually engaged with them.

So we want to help equip the body so they can spread the true gospel to these cults and also help stop the deception. Mm. Mark Sr., you're a successful, well-known doctor, author of 30 books. You've got a thriving medical profession, and yet you've had this real burden to reach the cults, as your son Mark Jr. said, brought them in to the home to speak in dialogue.

How is it that you've developed such a passion for reaching these people with the gospel?

Well Yeah, Dr. Brown, it's kind of interesting. In in some ways I'm Impressed by these groups, the amount of effort they put in in evangelizing, they obviously have a a genuine belief in what they believe. And so in some ways I'm very I have some admiration for them and the effort they put in. On the other hand, I see a lot of the people that join these groups are What I'd call cultural Christians.

I mean, they have some knowledge of Christianity, but not much of a depth of biblical truth. And these are the kinds of people end up. Often being these groups. In other words, they have some spiritual desires. but without really knowing what they believe and why they believe it.

They sometimes end up in groups like with the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. I had noticed that people have a lot of difficulty Talking with these people and defending their beliefs, or especially going to the next step and trying to evangelize them.

So, what we've What we've tried to do with this book is first Learn how to defend what you believe. In other words, learn what you believe and why you believe it based on biblical truth, based on history, based on logic. And then to go to the next step, which a lot of Christians don't seem to do, and engage with these people, try and show them the truth and let the Holy Spirit work through them and hopefully bring them out of these works oriented uh you know, cults, if you will. Yeah, and Mark Jr. We can easily say what's wrong with the cults, and we might even look at beliefs of Mormonism and think how silly and Jehovah's Witness is, and they work so hard, and they have so little assurance.

Yet there must be some kind of appeal. in these cults, if they were so obviously wrong, if the people were so obviously miserable, then why would people join?

So what's your take? Obviously, each cult, each group is different, but what have you seen as the major appeal of the cults? I think the appeal is that they use a price figure. in order to at least pretend to offer salvation. Um and people find that intriguing.

and they say that only their organization is the true organization, so that makes you feel comfortable or exclusive.

So the fact that they have a Jesus figure who offers salvation but you're kind of a in a sense part of a special group because you're a m minority that only knows the truth. I think that appeals to people. Yeah, uh Mark Senior, anything you want to add to that? Yeah, I mean, what I've noticed with these groups, especially with the Latter-day Saints or Mormons, certainly a lot of them are born into the religion. As as a lot of people are even in Christianity.

So there's a big Really, kind of a social group, if you will. If you look at a lot of Mormonism, whether it be the large families. Work environment, they are tied in very much socially, and humans, you know, we desire to have social connections, and I'd say. Both groups do a good job of helping people feel like they're valued. And so there's the social aspect to it, which I think's a big aspect.

And with Mormonism, a lot of them are born into it, aren't necessarily exposed a lot to mainstream Christianity. With the Jehovah's Witnesses, there's more of a kind of a militant aspect They focus a lot on the end of the world, uh like on prophecy and Armageddon. Um So there's some degree of fear we find with Jehovah's Witnesses in terms of really focusing a lot on the end times, and that seems to Gather in a certain type of individual who maybe is not comfortable with the way the world is, their government is, and it draws in the people really focused on on the end times, if you will, for the Jehovah's Witnesses. All right, so let's flip this around. Everything you say makes sense and is in harmony with my interaction with cults and my understanding of cults over the years, specifically Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons here.

But let's flip this around. If we were thriving in Jesus, solid in the Word. Walking in the Spirit. Touching the lost around us, the last thing we think about. Is Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons?

Is Mormons tempting us or pulling us away? There'd be virtually no believers leaving the faith and going away of these errors. What is it that you think is lacking today among many Christians that makes them more vulnerable to these cults? Again, we'll start with you, Mark Jr. I think it's a lack of biblical understanding.

And you and I both know, Dr. Brown, that we don't study the Bible just to gain. head knowledge and win debates, but to know God. Um but it's important because when we engage with these cults, they'll tell Christians things Christians things like Well, you do know that John 3.16 says that Jesus is begotten, so he's a created being, right? and Christians have never heard that before, so they're caught off guard, or they'll say, oh, well, Jesus is called the firstborn in Colossians one fifteen, so that means he's he's created.

So that's why the Jehovah's Witnesses organization is correct. or the LDS similarly will actually attack the historicity of the Bible.

So it's important we know church history or at least a basic understanding of it and why we can trust the Bible, because they'll say things like, Oh, well, the Bible's been translated so many times you can't trust anymore. That's why you need to use our holy books. Also, the gospel has been lost. It's been it needs to be restored.

So that's why our organization with our prophets. uh have come in to proclaim God's truth.

So we need to have an understanding of Christian history, especially the doctrines such as the deity of Jesus, the Trinity, why, how one is saved. And also basic church history, uh how the gospel has been preserved and the Bible has been been preserved throughout the ages. Yeah, absolutely.

So there's a lot of biblical and theological illiteracy. Among believers today. Generations past, kids would have grown up being, quote, catechized. They'd learned foundations of the faith. There'd be more biblical knowledge.

When students were graduating from Harvard University, the first graduation in the mid-1600s, each student of the nine grads delivered an address either in Greek or Hebrew or Latin.

So we've come quite a long way from there. Mark Sr., as you look, years now as a believer and surveying the body of Christ in America, are there are there other holes, other areas aside from biblical illiteracy that provide open doors for the cults to come in and lure people away? Yeah, I think, you know, like you both said, I think the biblical literacy is huge. Um my experiences talking to the average Christian, they do not have a good understanding of basic Christian doctrine. But I say the other big aspect I see, and I see it in a lot of churches, whether it be large or small, Um passion.

A passion for evangelism. Uh is a very concerning The amount of evangelism that goes on, even in large churches.

So, for example, I know in our area in Southern California. You know, I could go to 10, 20 churches that have 2,000 or more members, and you find out how many people are actually involved in evangelism on a regular basis. And often you can count it on, you know, two hands.

So the passion for evangelism, for some reason, The desire to Help the lost. Um it's concerning. I mean, it's not just for Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. We see it for, you know, people who are atheists and and things like that too. We're on the streets a lot and we, you know, hang around other Christians who are involved in evangelism.

And there just seems to be a a a a problem with the passion for evangelism and and reaching the lost. And the lost, of course, could be an atheist, an agnostic, a Jehovah's Witness, a Mormon, and many other people.

So the passion and I think the passion comes from You know, listening to the Holy Spirit and reading God's Word.

So France, think of it, because we have lost our burden to go out to the world and reach the lost. Instead, we are getting reached by others, pulling us away from the gospel. It's true. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, this is Michael Brown, and I am here by phone with Dr. Mark Stengler and Mark Stenler Jr., co-authors of a great new book, Cult Shock.

The book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Don't Want You to Read. You know, sometimes there's a book and it's really enjoyable to read, but you wonder: well, is it accurate? Is the information correct? And then other books are tremendously accurate and detailed, but they're hard to use. And then other books give you the information, but they don't give you the how-to.

And other books, the how-to without the information.

Well, this book gives you all the above. Cult shock. And Dinesh D'Souza says of the book, this book shows where Christian apologetics hits the road. The authors deploy provocative and interesting arguments to engage those who come from alien, sometimes outlandish theological frameworks. The result is a readable educational book that is a valuable addition to every Christian's apologetic tool kit.

And lots of other great endorsements, including Josh McDowell's, who I mentioned to you earlier, Ray Comfort as well endorses the book. It is about 250 pages. It sells for $16.99. But friends, your gift to our ministry this month to help us with our Jewish outreach and our outreach to all people, including the cults, will send you this as our Thank you gift. This applies only in the States.

So go to our website today, ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org. Your gift of any size, we want to send this to you as our thank you gift. book. Mark Sr., let's start with Mormons.

Can you give me an overview of Mormonism in a nutshell? It's chapter three of your book, Mormonism in a Nutshell.

So let's do the radio nutshell version. Oh, sure.

Well, Mormonism began in the early 1800s. Most people are familiar with Joseph Smith, who was the founder. Founder of Mormonism, their first prophet. Major profit. And he was given supposedly a vision by God that all Christendom or all Christianity was corrupt.

And so it needed to be restored. And so Of course he is the one to come up with the Latter-day Saints doctrine. And they're they believe that they have the restored gospel. And so only through their organization Um By belonging to the organization, following their holy books, which includes the Bible and three other books. can one attain salvation?

And they have different levels of salvation. Um most people are familiar with Mormonism. with different aspects. I've heard of Joseph Smith. They've heard about polygamy.

Polygamy used to be a a large factor in the early Latter Day Saints Church. And with offshoots, of Mormonism now. It still is involved, especially in Utah and in the West. And um You talk to a Mormon, they basically will tell you: you know, there's some truth to the Bible, but it's been corrupted and. Our organization, we have been given by God prophets and the responsibility.

stored gospel so Only true belonging to our organization, being involved in our organization, By our tenants. uh certain things that happen, like in their temples. and listening to their prophets, they have a restored profit system. And of course, the Bible says that type of prophet is obsolete now since Jesus came. That's the key.

That's the key to salvation. They also have a very unique doctrine of God. Most people aren't aware. Their concept of God is completely different than the Bible, and so is their Jesus. And just to briefly tell you, In Mormonism, everything has always existed.

There never was a beginning to the universe. Matter has always been eternal. And so in their theology, Um Spirit beings are created. In the heavens. Through sexual relations with Yeah.

Heavenly Father. and the Heavenly Mother. And that creates these spirit beings. which then can be actualized on earth you know sexual relations to And then those beings, when they come to earth, um they're basically being challenged if they if you will. uh to live a holy life.

And if they do that and follow the commandments of the Mormon Church and their Doctrine and covenants and so forth, they can achieve Godhood.

So, in Mormonism, really, the goal. The ultimate goal, which makes it different from Christianity, the ultimate goal is to achieve a state of Godhood. Pretty much anyone in Mormon theology will make it to heaven. Very few people go to hell no matter what they've done because you're always given second chances. But in Mormon theology, really, the ultimate goal is to achieve godhood, whether it be a male or female.

Now, the males have an advantage because they can have. numerous wives in the heavenly realm, which they can have sexual relations with and so forth. But the ultimate goal is to achieve Godhood, whereas in Christianity, the ultimate goal is to glorify God and to enjoy enjoy him for eternity. Yeah, and and Mark Jr. with this idea that You need the Book of Mormon and the additional revelations of the Mormon church.

If you have someone that's biblically illiterate, they don't realize that there are fundamental contradictions between Mormonism and the Bible. Do you find in your own outreach, Mark, that it's practical to reach out and go right on the attack and show why Mormons are wrong? How would you approach a Mormon? Or if a Mormon comes to your door, how would you approach that?

Well, I think that whenever you're witnessing to someone of a different religion, that you start with the common ground, like Paul did in Acts seventeen. And so the common ground in this case was that we both believe in Jesus as the Messiah. and we need salvation.

So we start with that, but then we look to what is salvation and who is Jesus? And so what I would say is: hey, you know what? We both believe in Jesus. We need him for our salvation. But what concerns me, and this is as if I'm talking to a Mormon, but what concerns me is that your organization, say I attacked the organization, not them.

teaches or sh that Jesus Was an exalted man. He's really no different than you and me, except that he's sinless. Also, the Bible says that says that there's only one true God, but your organization has taught that there are an infinite number of gods and we can all become one one day.

So this concerns me, and can I show you the verses which shows the truth?

So using that kind of mode because something God's taught both of us is that you don't want to go on the attack right away because that closes people off. We show tr we proclaim the truth, but in love. You never compromise the truth, but we have to keep our conversation centered around Christ and the gospel. And Mark Jr., there are videos where you are out on the street talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons. Folks can see your approach firsthand.

Where would they go to watch these? They can go to our website, pleasetellmetheetruth. org, and they can click on the Mormon or Jehovah's Witness tab. We actually have audio conversations are recorded with both Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Um myself engaging with them. And also a breakdown of what versus I used so they can use the same approach.

And one more question before we come to break. How old are you, sir? Currently 19. Currently 19, so planning on getting to 20 pretty soon. The reason I bring that up is to say, hey, friends, you don't have to be 50 years old with four seminary degrees and three doctorates.

Here's an articulate young man, obviously well discipled by his articulate father, but someone's saying, hey, let's just go do it. Let's just go reach people. Let's get grounded and let's go reach people. You say, Yeah, but how do I get grounded? Get the book.

Cult Shock, the book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Don't Want You to Read. To find out how you can get a copy sent to you as our gift, go to my website, ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org. We come back, let's have a brief theoretical discussion with a Mormon. We'll pick up with Dr.

Mark Stengler and Mark Stengler Jr.

when we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome, friends, to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown with my special guests, Dr. Mark Stengler and Mark Stengler Jr., co-authors of the new book, Kulchak, the book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Don't Want You to Read.

At the end of the chapter on Mormonism in a nutshell, I'm looking at two very practical charts on pages 61 and 62. Here's the LDS view versus the Christian view on God the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, man, Satan. And there are other charts like this throughout the book, and then summary points for dialogue with Latter-day Saints, as they're called, Mormons.

So let's do this. I haven't rehearsed this in advance, but I'm sure my guests have no problem doing this. But let's have a theoretical discussion. Let's just take three or four minutes. And Mark Jr., you are the Mormon.

Mark Sr., you are the Christian. Have a little dialogue here. Let's start with you, Mark Jr. You knock at Dr. Stengler's home.

You're a Mormon. You're going to interact. Go ahead. All righty.

Well, hello, sir. My name is Elder Mark from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and uh we'd love to share with you the the restored gospel of Jesus Christ today.

Well, great, Elder. I'd be happy to talk with you. And it's okay with you. I'd like to ask questions as you're talking. I find it's most fruitful for you and I.

I'm able to ask questions while we're conversing here.

Okay, that'd be that'd be fine. Um so How how are you f are you familiar with the the person of Jesus? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm a Christian. I'm a Bible believing Christian, so absolutely.

Okay, right.

So that's great.

Well, so we believe that Jesus and God the Father, I'm going to show you this pamphlet here actually appeared to one of the greatest men who ever lived, Joseph Smith, to reveal to him the true gospel which which we're sharing with you today. Oh, you know what?

Well, I appreciate that. I've actually been showing that before. And if I could ask you a question, I mean, one of the things I've always wondered about, because the Bible is one of your holy books, right? You do use the Bible? Uh, that's right.

But can you believe there's any? Right, and you believe it's the word of God, correct? Um Yes, yes.

Okay. Yeah, because in the Bible, the Bible's very clear that no one has ever seen God the Father at any time yet. Here we find out that Joseph Smith saw God the Father in a human body.

So it contradicts what the Bible says. It's it's just I'm wondering how you reconcile that with the Bible being one of your holy books that God the Father can never be seen. Um yet Joseph Smith saw him.

Well, as you know, The Bible's actually been changed uh throughout the ages. I mean It's translated into all these different languages. Um and also Even the New Testament, Paul predicted that Christendom uh would be corrupted.

So that's where we come in. um our prophets come in to restore this gospel Okay.

Well just yeah, if you don't mind just a few questions on that. you know, because when I've studied uh the history of Christianity, when I look at scholars who have, you know, studied the Bible, they all seem to be pretty much on the same wavelength, they'd say if you take The Bibles we have it today, it's 99.5% Give or take 0.1 or 2%. The same as the originals. And so that's really what sets it apart from any other holy book that's unique in that way. Are there certain Uh Aspects of the Bible that you've been able to see that have been corrupted?

Do you have any specifically that you know about?

Well, no, but you know, the Apostle Paul did say that there'd be a falling away. Um and there'll be many false teachers.

So So we've seen that the the gospel has has fallen away, just like Paul said. And what Joseph did was restore that for us. That's what we would like to share with you today if you would like to look at our pamphlet with us. Sure, well let's you know, let's talk further.

Now remember Paul's talking about in the future, which is true, that there would be false teachers in the church and that they should be dealt with, and we have seen that throughout history. And of course, that occurs in any organization. You know, that can occur in any organization. But Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against his church.

So, you know, I take Jesus' words at faith value. Yeah.

All right, friends. You say that's fascinating. Hey, there are whole conversations like this in the book, Cult Shock. Be right back. It's fire we want.

Oh fire we want. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. My guest today, Dr. Mark Stengler. You may have some of his medical books. He has written 30 books and is well known in the naturopathic medical profession.

His son, Mark Jr., who's a student at Liberty University. And together, they've written, for me, the most practical book I've seen yet on reaching Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Chapter 8 has sample conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. And many of these, you tell the way they're going to go because Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are well trained in specific ways. They don't know the Bible as a whole that well necessarily, but they know what they teach well.

And if you have the right understanding of what they're coming with, in other words, if you know, Know the pitch that's coming your way before it comes, then you've got a much better chance of hitting that pitch successfully. And in the book as well, there are witnessing techniques for Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. There's a comprehensive chapter on apologetics for common cultic attacks.

So it lists over 20 different common attacks. And here's the best way to respond. Again, the book, Cult Shock, the book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons don't want you to read. Mark Jr., Mark Sr., thanks for that little dialogue there. I just threw it at you, knewing you could do it without an issue.

Trust me, I'm listening and thinking, let's keep going for an hour here, but let's cover a little more ground. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mark Jr., give us the beliefs, history, whatever's relevant about Jehovah's Witnesses in a nutshell, as you do in one chapter in the book. Right, so similar to the LDS Church or Mormon Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses organization or the Watchtower started in the early eighteen hundreds with a man named Charles Taze Russell. And he really really just did not like the idea of an eternal hell or the Trinity. And so he formed a Bible study which was anti Trinitarian, which eventually became the Watchtower Bible and Track Society.

And so that's what you'll see today with those magazines that say the Watchtower or Wake magazine on it. And uh so this organization teaches That there's only one God and one person, so Unitarianism. whose name is Jehovah, they are very adamant that that is God's true name. Of course, we refute that in the book. uh but also that Jesus Is the first creation of God.

In fact, he is Michael the archangel. Incarnate. which obviously is a huge problem because that's definitely anti-biblical.

So in order to attain salvation in the organization, it's it's faith plus works. There's a striking pattern within the cults when you deny that the true God atoned for sin and resurrected. You have to work for your salvation.

So they believe that you have to have a special knowledge of God, and that comes through being part of their organization and doing good works.

So obviously the key for them is showing that Jesus is not a created being and that salvation is by faith through God's grace. And do you find that you need a different approach, a distinctly different approach for Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons? Or is it the same general approach just with different specifics for each group? While both groups deny the biblical trinity, one God in three persons, the Mormon trinity is three separate gods. But also, if I might add, the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own Bible translation called the New World Translation Bible.

Where they take out verses which clearly show that Jesus is Almighty God, such as John 1:1. Um And so in the book we show The body, how to use their own translation to show that Jesus is God. And So the approach is similar. But you have to be very careful in defining words. Because, like I said, if you ask the Mormons, Do you believe in the Trinity?

they'll say yes. but the Trinity is three different gods. Or if you ask the Jehovah's Witnesses, Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? they'll say yes. But their Messiah is Michael the Archangel.

So similar approaches, but very you have to be very careful in picking words. All right, so let's let's swap things here. Dr. Stengler, you are now a Jehovah's Witness, and you are knocking on the door of this young man, this college student, Mark Junior. Have a little dialogue if you don't mind.

Sure.

Well, hello, I'm Mark. I'm from the Kingdom Hall down the block here. I'm with the Jehovah's Witnesses, and we're just spreading the news about Jehovah's Kingdom. uh which will be coming to the earth Um, do you have any uh Christian background? Oh, I do.

I'm actually a follower of Jesus myself.

Okay, okay, good, good. Yeah, you know, we talk to a lot of Christians and we just find, you know, they're just not aware of that. Christendom is really apostate, that the churches really aren't teaching you know, what the early disciples believed. And, you know, let me just give you an example if you wouldn't mind. Um, you know, we talk to a lot of Christians and they're not aware that They're worshiping Jesus, which the Bible doesn't teach.

Jesus was Jehovah's first creation. I mean, let me give you an example. You can even look in your own Bible here. It says in John 3.16. as a lot of people quote us first.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish. See, Jesus was created and And Christians have been misled thinking that he's God, and so we're just concerned about people like you, and we want you to come to know the truth and And Jehovah has is using our organization to bring people to the truth so that You know, they can have uh salvation.

Well, that's interesting, and I appreciate your concern, but I'm actually quite concerned for you, because I heard you say that the term begotten. means created, and that that verse says Jesus is created. I'm looking here at John chapter 3. Um and you know I don't see anywhere that it explicitly says Jehovah created Jesus. Actually, if you do a word study of the term begotten, uh it means the unique one, monoganase.

So it's just showing that When you become a Christian, you enter into God's family as sons and daughters of God. But Jesus is set apart as God's unique Son to be the Savior of the world. Um But if I might add, we both believe that Jesus is the Messiah, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, absolutely.

Scripture is very clear that the Messiah Definitely is Jesus. I I agree with that. Great.

So I'm here looking at Isaiah chapter 9, verse 6. If you want to turn there in your Bible too, this is a pretty cool prophecy about the Messiah.

Okay. Here we read. Oh, first of all. You guys your organization teaches that There is only one true God. Is that correct?

Oh, that is true, yes. Uh the Bible's very clear on that.

Okay, perfect.

So, Isaiah chapter 9, I'll use the King James Bible because I know that's what your organization used to use. It says, For unto us a child is born, and unto us a son is given. And the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

So I'm seeing here Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah to become, which is Jesus, of course, would be the everlasting or eternal God.

So when you're when you tell me that Jesus is created, I have to disagree agree with you on the basis of scripture, and I'm afraid that's something that your organization has taught you.

Well, I'm looking at Isaiah 9.6 here, and you know, Jesus the Messiah is referred to as mighty God, but he's not the Almighty God. We don't we believe Jesus, yes, he is a mighty God, but he's not God Almighty. I mean, it's there's a difference there.

So let me get this straight. The The one true God is is Jehovah because he's the Almighty. Right?

So Well, using your organization's logic then, Jesus must be a false God because whatever's not true is false. because you said he's not the almighty God. How about We go one chapter over to Isaiah chapter 10. Let me get your thoughts on this. Isaiah chapter 10, verse 21.

This says the remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. And that's referring to Jehovah.

So now we have two mighty gods. Does that mean Jehovah is a false god then?

Well A moment of silence as the Jehovah's Witness is starting to get stumped. I'm sitting here smiling and listening to this conversation. And of course, I've had almost identical word-for-word conversations with Jehovah's Witness over the years. If you just tuned in, you said, what was going on? That was a dialogue between Dr.

Mark Stengler, who was role-playing as a Jehovah's Witness, and his son, Mark Stengler Jr. But you have these conversations laid out with all the background, with a lot of depth and then practical application in their new book, Cult Shock, the book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Don't Want You to Read. Mark Sr., have you had success over the years actually leading people out of the cults to the Lord or getting them to really stop and think? You know, we have.

Now, we don't Oftentimes what you'll find a lot of these groups, especially the Jehovah's Witnesses, if you meet with them once and you know what you're talking about and they can't answer your questions, are you able to refute theirs? They're basically commanded not to meet with you again. Matter of fact, they'll make a note of your house and let the organization never come back to your house. They're really looking to meet with people who aren't well versed in the Bible. Mormons, they'll usually meet with you about two or three times.

And if again, if you can refute what they're saying and show them the truth, they're polite about it. They probably won't want to meet with you more. Our goal is to not claim to be able to convert people. Of course, we know only the Holy Spirit can do that. But We are ambassadors of Jesus Christ, as it says in Acts 1:8, and so we want to just give people the truth.

Put like a stone in their shoe, if you will. Get them thinking. In my experience, talking to these people who've come out of these groups, it takes numerous encounters. With Bible-believing Christians who know their doctrine that come out of it. And we're just a small part of it, working along with the Holy Spirit.

Awesome. Friends, you and I are called to also be part of reaching the cults that come right to our door. Let's be ready, the new book, Cult Shock by Mark Stengler Jr. and Mark Stengler Sr. Oh God of burning, cleansing Flame.

Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I cannot believe how quickly this hour has gone with my guests, Dr. Mark Stengler and Mark Stengler Jr., the new book, Cult Shock. Again, if you've missed any part of the interview, this is a great new book, 250 pages. Sells for $16.99. Dr.

Josh McDowell says it is a great apologetic resource to give you confidence and knowledge to answer many cults with truth and logic. We like the book so much that this month, for your gift of any size to help us in our ministry, work, especially our Jewish outreach, we're sending you this book as our thank you gift. Go to my website, ask Dr. Brown, ask.org to find out more. Let me switch gears for a moment.

And gentlemen, what impresses me most... About the book. Is the father-son relationship, the like heart, and how you have modeled this so well for others?

So, I want to talk father-son for a moment because many of our listeners, my age in their 60s, many younger, just raising families. My largest demographic is probably 25 to 34-year-olds.

So, this is very relevant. Dr. Stengler, How is it that you have poured into your son in such a way in the midst of a busy medical profession and busy life so as to really have discipled and nurtured him in the things of God? What would you say? Just not about.

Cult specifically, but generally, as a dad talking to other Christian dads, what would you say to them?

Well, I think for me, I mean, I decided years ago just through my own investigation research and by the power of the Holy Spirit that the Bible was true. It was God's Word, and we could trust it. And to the degree, I wanted to know details. And so actually I went to seminary part-time for many years to you know, to get a degree to learn it more in depth. My number one reason for that was to, number one, protect and enrich my family, so to pass on the truth to my family as best I could.

because for me the number one thing, my number one responsibility was their eternal salvation. And so hopefully, you know, I I've been an influence on Mark and my family. And then when I when when he was younger, much younger, I would actually have the cults come to my door, I'd have them come in, I'd see them on the street, I'd go out and engage with them and And hopefully it showed, you know, the passion of evangelism you know, and had some effect on 'em. Yeah, and Mark Jr., you mentioned that right at the beginning, being younger, not even being a believer yet, but seeing the cults come in your home, seeing the way your dad dealt with them. What has impacted you most about your dad's example?

Obviously, God's put a passion in your heart. You're articulate and clear-headed and are a great example to the younger generation. What most impacted you by your dad's example? I think that the unwillingness to compromise the truth, because when you're talking to these cults, or anyone really that says they believe in Jesus or they're a Christian, Uh, it's easy to just say, Oh, you know what, you're good, you believe in Jesus or you say you do at least. But we really if we really love others uh and care for them, we're going to investigate a little bit.

Well, who was Jesus to you? Uh what do you mean by you believe in him? Because as you know, there are many people in this world that say they believe in Jesus. But either their lives don't reflect one who has been born again, or they have the wrong Jesus.

So I think that. Unwillingness to compromise the truth of the gospel has really made an effect on me. And you're at you're at Liberty University right now, so you've got lots of folks of like heart and like mind around you, but you also know plenty of other young people, college age, that are not that grounded in the faith, young Christians today that seem more influenced by the spirit of the age and by the word of God. What would you say to them? Right, well, I would say that.

The fact that Jesus has truly risen should mean that his spirit is making uh powerful changes and doing a work in your life. And I'm talking about the fruit of the Spirit, that His Spirit should be producing love and joy and peace.

so that you can truly shine your light and others will glorify God because of your good deeds. Because it's not enough just just to say I intellectually assent. That Jesus is the Son of God. I believe if Jesus really is God's Son and has changed your life. Um then others should notice.

Mm. And Mark Sr., practical question for you. Your medical practice, how far in advance are you sometimes booked? Oh, usually two to three months. Two to three months out.

Okay. You've got a video broadcast as well. You've written 30 books.

So you're in demand in your field. What would you say to other believers, other hardworking moms and dads, and say, I'm just too busy to get involved in Christian ministry and evangelism. I've got a full life, soccer moms, busy dads. What would you say? Well, I think they need to do an evaluation of their priorities in life.

I mean, A lot of people give a lip service that God is the number one priority. And if that was true, Then Learning the truth of God's word and sharing it, preaching it to others would be a priority.

So there really is no excuse. I mean, there's always some degree people can be involved. In evangelism. Of course, you know, our our Lord commanded it in the Great Commission.

So, in one way or another, and it doesn't have to be street evangelism like we do, but one way or another, Every Christian should be involved in evangelism. You're either supporting those deeply involved in it, going to other nations, they're in danger, or you yourself are directly involved in it. But one way or the other, a true follower will be involved in preaching God's Word so others can be saved to save the lost. Yeah.

It goes along with having the heart of God. And hey, we've just got about a minute and a half. Mark Jr., you recently did an outreach with your dad. You had a break and you went to New York City to share the gospel on the streets. What did you encounter?

Did you see much spiritual hunger out there? We did. That was it was amazing to see God work and bring people to us And the icebreaker questions we asked We're actually very powerful. I'd love to just share a couple for your audience, if you just don't mind. We'd ask people, Hey, do you have any spiritual beliefs?

And Almost no one we talked to, and this is in New York City, said no. Every pretty much everyone has some type of spiritual belief, and it's very open-ended. Then we'd like to follow that up with, well, who is Jesus to you? And man, the majority of people knew that Jesus was the Son of God or that He was God and that He came to die on the cross for our sins and resurrected.

So it was a matter of Uh Getting to the point of showing them that it can't just be a head knowledge thing, but they have to receive that in repentance and faith in Him as Lord.

So I hope that's an encouragement to people because we talk to, especially in America, so many cultural or nominal Christians who know what Jesus did, but they have not received him as Lord yet. And Dr. Stanley, would you agree that the harvest is ripe? You know, I was actually quite surprised. I was a little bit concerned what kind of reception we get, but we talked to people from all different types of religions, including a lot of.

People involved in Islam, and we had a very good reception. And we were able to show them, you know, Jesus, you know, was God in human flesh, and He is the true Savior, and the Bible is God's only truth. And we were actually quite surprised how well we were received. And we talked to different cults, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses. And like Mark said, a lot of cultural Christians we talk to, and a certain amount of atheist agnostics.

We were more well received than we thought, and we always at some point got to the gospel. We told them about the importance of repentance. And faith in Jesus Christ. And the vast majority of people were willing to listen and engage. There's only a very small percent of people who.

Had no interest.

So we did plant some seeds, and it's not as hard as people think. They just have to. you know, strengthen their faith and and God will provide, you know, the boldness to do that. Yeah, awesome.

Well, you gentlemen are great examples. Thanks for being on the air. We'll have to do this another time. And thanks for your new book. God bless you.

Thank you. Thank you. All right, friends, the new book, Cult Shock. To get a copy, go to my website, AskDr. Brown.

The phone lines are wide open right now on the line of fire. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth.

That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, I'm going to have a little fun now. I am this moment just on Twitter and Facebook, just posting this.

My phone lines are open now. 60 minutes. Call with any question. 866-348-7884. Hey, friends, this is Michael Brown, freshly back from Germany and Italy.

A great trip there. Got into Italy Friday afternoon and then spoke Friday night three times Saturday, twice on Sunday, plus some great meetings with some individuals privately. then flew over to Germany. Monday afternoon, then spoke in Germany late afternoon, Monday, Monday night, and then yesterday flew back.

So I had to pre-record some shows. The last one I recorded from Germany, that was before leaving the country there. I hope you enjoyed the broadcast. I hope you were blessed by the content. I was blessed in preparing it for you.

But the phone lines are wide, wide open. That means you can call me with any question under the sun. Oh, I got a bunch of things I'm eager to talk to you about. Just had a great one-hour conversation with Dr. Mark Stenler and his son, Mark Jr., on their new book, Cult Shock.

But you can call me with any question of any kind on any subject whatsoever, as long as it's fit for Christian radio and as long as I can be of help to you.

Now, look, I watch some sports and follow some sports, so I could give you my evaluation of what's happening in the sports world, but that's not what this show is about. And there are some subjects just in general that I might know something about, but they're not relevant to this broadcast.

So here are the parameters. It's got to be relevant to this broadcast, the line of fire. And it's got to be fit for Christian radio. There's certain things you may be going through a certain personal struggle that we just can't talk about in a public setting.

So, if it's fit for Christian radio and it's of interest, it relates somehow to the line of fire, and we cover a whole lot of subjects here. The phone lines are open: 866-348-7884. I particularly invite you to call me if you differ with me on something or have a question. About something. And listen.

I am not. Trying to set something up when I do this, friends. When I invite you to call, if you have a difference, it's not like I'm a professional boxer and you're an amateur and I'm inviting you in the ring with me, or you're a real tough guy, but you have a knife and I have a gun and I'm saying, okay, let's fight. Forgive these martial physical analogies, but I'm just trying to make a point. It's not that I'm saying, okay, come on my turf where I control the mic and you don't.

No, no. I'm saying I want to give you an opportunity within the parameters of our time frame on radio and in fairness to our listeners, I want to give you an opportunity to express a difference with me.

Someone got on my Facebook page the other day and said, whatever this is, it's not ask Dr. Brown. He avoids the question. I avoid the questions? You name a ministry.

You have a website and Facebook page and YouTube channel called Ask Dr. Brown because you want to avoid questions. You have a talk radio show where people can call in because you want to avoid questions. You start most of your classes with your students saying any questions you want to ask. When you're asked to do a lecture on a college campus, you request a debate instead so that the other side can raise their points.

And if there's no one willing to debate, you request open my QA after your lecture because you avoid questions. No, that's not me, quite the opposite.

So I invite you to call so we can interact because I simply don't have the time to interact with everyone who differs with me online. I'd love to, but some of you can't even interact with everyone in your circle, and your circle is much smaller than mine, and I understand people with circles bigger than mine, if I want to interact with them, it's probably not going to happen online.

So the phone lines are open. When we come back, I want to talk to you about Islam, radical Islam, and peace-loving Islam, yes? There is such a thing as peace-loving Islam. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Have you read my two latest articles? One, tolerance will not stop terrorism.

And the other, that Canada is ready to raid your home and steal your children. Uh-huh. Accurate. No hype. No sensationalism.

Accurate. Just Telling The truth. You say, How do I read these? Just go to my website, askdrbrown, a-s-k-d-r-brown.org. And before you leave the website, if you don't get my informative weekly emails, then please sign up before you go.

When you do, we'll send you a real eye-opening e-book for free, Seven Secrets of the Real Messiah. All right, if you've got a question of any kind, Phone lines are wide open. It can go from theology to politics to cultural issues to Israel to translations of the Bible to challenge me on something I believe personally. 866-34-TRUTH. It's 866-348-7884.

Okay, before I go to your False. I am not an apologist for Islam. I don't think there are any Muslims in the world who look at Michael Brown and think, oh, he's a defender of Islam. I am I hate it by many Muslims because I say that radical Islam, violent Islam, is a, not the only, but is a genuine expression of Islam. I frequently have ugly one-star reviews posted on my Astronautic Brown Facebook page or comments posted on YouTube from Muslims who are furious with me and saying I'm misrepresenting their faith.

I know that I'm hated by some radical Muslims. I know this for a fact.

So I I'm not a defender. of Islam. And I believe that the greatest false prophet of all time was Muhammad, the most influential and greatest false prophet of all time. And the most influential false religious book would almost certainly be the Quran.

So I I am anything but a defender. of Islam. And I'm aware of the doctrine of taqiyya, by which a Muslim could lie about something for an alleged higher religious purpose. By the way, a Muslim might say, well, don't Christian Bible smugglers do the same thing? They lie about what they're doing in order to get Bibles.

I mean, they may come back with that. I'm aware of the principle of abrogation, by which the earlier Peace-loving, tolerant verses in the Quran are abrogated by the later violent militaristic verses. I'm aware of that. I studied classical Arabic for three years. I've studied side by side with devout Muslims reading in Arabic together.

I'm anything but ignorant of these things. And yet without question, There are peace loving, Devout Muslims, they are not denouncing violent Islam for political purposes. They are not denouncing violent Islam to be deceptive. They are denouncing violent Islam because they are devout Muslims, and to them this is a perversion of their faith. And they can point to Muhammad.

and the Koran and their history and say that they are a peace-loving tolerant religion. You see, that's crazy. Look at the violence. Muhammad himself was violent. Look at the violent verses.

Look at the violent history. I'm quite aware of that. And I would say that violent Islam is also a genuine expression of Islam.

However, I know. For sure. that there are peace-loving, devout Muslims, and they know their faith. Better than 99% of us know their faith. And they would say that what these violent jihadists are doing is a perversion of their faith.

And these are both. Historic expressions of Islam. And it bothers me When people say, You're being duped, don't be stupid. Friends, I probably studied this issue more than most of those who attacked me for being stupid. And certainly studying it in the original languages is important.

You really can't feel the Quran unless you can read it and hear it in Arabic. You might understand it on some level, but you can't really feel it. feel its power unless you can read it and then even hear it. chanted. Uh and I certainly have experience interacting with those in the Muslim world.

and and can interact intelligently with Islamic literature and things like that.

So I've probably studied these things in more depth than those who tell me that the only real uh Muslim is a murderous Muslim. It bothers me, though. When we challenge the Muslim world, well, if you're really peace-loving, then denounce the terrorist attacks, and they do. And then we said, we don't believe you, you're just lying. That to me is insincere.

That to me is problematic.

So let me give you an example. I posted an article last night on my Facebook page. Imams refused to give Islamic burials for London attackers in, quote, unprecedented move. And This article, it was Yahoo News, William Watkinson for International Business Times. I've already seen one gentleman online, Imam Tawhidi, who is very controversial in the Muslim world, saying this is just another act of deception.

I'm aware of that. However, I have no question. that there are many sincere, devout Muslims, If you got to know them, you'd find them to be very likable people. you'd find them to be probably more devout in their lives 24-7 than most Christians, you know. you'd find them to be appalled.

by these acts of violence, and if you knew them for years, you'd find them to be genuine. All right. And you'd find them to have all their sources they're quoting from and Islamic literature and reading in Arabic.

So here, more than 130 British Imams have refused to give Islamic burials to the London attackers because they believe their actions are incompatible with Islam. An Islamic burial is a ritual provided to every Muslim regardless of their actions in life, but the group has refused to conduct such ceremonies for the three men who killed seven and injured dozens by London Bridge and Burrell Market on Saturday, the 4th of June. In a statement posted to Facebook that also named the Imams, they said, quote, we will not perform the traditional Islamic funeral prayer for the perpetrators, and we also urge fellow Imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege. And You know, I've been seeing comments and response on Facebook. They're lying.

How could you be deceived? You're being duped. You don't have the guts to tell the truth. Like, are you kidding me? We post about radical Islam constantly.

We post the sources of radical Islam from the Quran. Like I said, I'm hated by radical Muslims, and I'm hated by other Muslims who tell me I'm misrepresenting their faith.

Now, stop for a minute though. Why are so many Moslems upset with me? for allegedly misrepresenting their faith by saying that violent Islam is a valid expression of Islam, if they themselves are all violence-loving. You say, but I don't get it. Islam has been bothering through its history.

Yes, it has, but Here's another perspective for you. Are you ready? Are you ready? And we're going to go to the phones momentarily, so hang on. We'll get to your calls shortly.

Let me give you another perspective, all right? When America. was seeking to overthrow British rule. All right, we were planted by Great Britain, we were planted by England, and then we are going to fight against them. Where did a lot of the fight come from?

From the pulpits, there was even a saying that rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God. and we engaged in a violent war, with the British for our independence, and we felt it was right. and Christians largely participated in it, and and some even led the way from the pulpit to the point that they were called the black robed regiment. All right, so let's say, let's have another scenario now, okay? Let's say that there is a particular Islamic country.

that is fomenting terrorism. And is exporting terror around the world, all right? And they are killing Americans around the world, and even launching assaults in America. and we decide to go to war against them. There are many Christians in the military who will believe that God is with them.

And that God is using them to fight against these terrorists. In other words, this is a just war, this is a just cause.

Well, Muslims, many Muslims would feel the same way. And they say, no, no, what these terrorists are doing is not Islam at all. That's a misapplication of the war verses. The war verses would be if you are in a just war and you are now fighting for your country and for your faith, that you believe that Allah is with you. And if you die in the course of battle, just like from, say, a Jewish-Israeli perspective, if you die fighting against Islamic terrorism, you're dying for God's cause for the protection of the people of Israel.

They'd say, Yeah, that's how we look at it. But a suicide bomber attacking men, women, and children, someone slicing the throats of people in restaurants and killing police. No, that's not Islam. That's a perversion of Islam, blowing up people at a concert. That's a perversion of the faith.

They say it, and I believe it. Statement continued from the Imams, though at no time is it acceptable. That such ruthless violence was perpetrated during the season of Ramadan, in which Muslims worldwide focus on pious devotion, prayer, charity, and the cultivation of good character, demonstrates how utterly misguided and distant the terrorists are from our faith and the contempt which they hold for its values. I believe many sincere Muslims hold to this. There are peace-loving Muslims and there are violent Muslims.

True. Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Phone lines are jammed. important announcement for you. Got a brand new video. Is it transphobic for a man to want a real woman?

Mm. And how about this one? Is the Bible infallible? Of my newest videos. Where can you watch them?

Go to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, askdrbrown.org, and just click on the digital library. You can also read my most recent articles as well. They're all eye-opening, the videos and the articles. Watch them, read them, share them with others, and together.

Let's lead the way in this gospel-based moral and cultural revolution. 866-34Truth. We'll start in Des Moines. No, we don't start in Des Moines, Iowa. I guess Justin had to go.

We'll start with Esteban in upstate New York. Thank you, sir, for calling the line of fire. Hi, Doctor Brown, how you doing? Doing well, thank you. Dumbo.

Okay, that's good to hear. Uh my question is, because I'm a converted Catholic. And, um, they told me that now that I'm a Baptist I have to get baptized. But I was already baptized as a child. Does that count?

As far as I understand it, Esteban. know that doesn't quote count and you should be baptized now as an adult. But let me explain why this is very positive and not negative, okay? Baptism in Scripture is always a response to the faith. In other words, it's repent and be baptized.

Believe and be baptized. Even when you have an example of a whole family being baptized, like Acts 16, it says that Paul preached the gospel to the whole families. to the whole family.

So they all heard the message and they all responded. At some point, this got changed as a spiritual or religious rite where a child would be baptized.

So just like a child is circumcised, a male child is circumcised in Judaism, so say in Catholicism and other expressions of Christianity, then a baby would be baptized as being dedicated to God. But you weren't a believer then. It was not a response to faith. Baptism did not symbolize the washing away of your sins because you weren't even conscious of sin.

So everything that baptism was supposed to do did not apply in that sense. And therefore, now as a believer, this is a great thing that you get to do. And it's also a public profession of your faith. You could not make a public profession as a baby. And there are plenty of babies who are baptized that never follow Jesus, never believe in God, and therefore are not right with God because baptism is not magic.

The water is not magic.

So by all means, this is something that you should do. But it's good to get an understanding of the purpose of baptism. Once you have an understanding of the purpose of baptism, you say, yeah, of course I should be, because being baptized as a child has no relevance as a baby. It has no relevance. Again, it was not in response to your faith.

It was not a conscious outward sign of washing the way of sin. You weren't even conscious of sin. It was not a public testimony. And it even says in Romans 6 that when we're baptized, it now means it symbolizes that we died with Jesus.

So you go under the water as the old Esteban, symbolically, because you're already a believer now. But you go under the water as the old Esteban, and you come out of the water as the new Esteban, dead to sin, alive to God.

So look at it as something positive that you get to do rather than another religious tradition that makes your earlier religious tradition null and void. Does that make sense? It sure does, Dr. Brown. Good.

And let me also tell you that when you are in other cultures and other countries, Baptism can take on tremendous importance. For example, there are folks that we baptize in India, and my friend Yesupadam, as we're about to do the baptism, they tell me, this woman comes from a devout Hindu family. And she's going to suffer a lot of persecution now that she's being baptized. In other words, that's the moment when someone says they believe and so on, okay, the family gets upset, but when they are baptized, That's the statement. That's when something is being declared that is loud and clear.

So let it be something of spiritual significance to you. And the day of your baptism will be a day you remember the rest of your life. Indeed, indeed, yeah. And I'm hoping that that day comes pretty soon. I'm thinking about it real hard.

Yeah, good.

Well, you sh hey, let me just say this. Not only is it something that's good to do, it's really a command. It's a command that once we believe, we should be baptized.

So just make sure you understand the purpose. I think you do clearly enough from your response to me. And just tell the church, yeah, I want to be baptized. When can I do it? And if they say, well, we'd like you to go through this class to make sure you understand the basics of the faith, great, whatever their procedure is.

But the sooner, the better. And by the way, it doesn't mean you're not saved today. It doesn't mean you're not loved by God. It doesn't mean your sins aren't forgiven. But it means this is something very important in your overall walk with God and spiritual life.

God bless you, sir. Thank you for the call. Uh eight six six three four eight seven. Eight eight five. Four, tell you what.

Richard Ernest Eric Stay right there. I don't want to rush you. If I take your question now, then I'll have a very short time to answer.

So stay right there. As soon as we come back on the other side of the break, I want to get to your calls. immediately. The first hour, we had a really informative interview. In fact, a lot of fun.

I had my guest do role-playing, Dr. Mark Stenler, his son Mark Stenler Jr. And I had them do role-playing, where one was a Jehovah's Witness and the other was a believer, or one was a Mormon and the other was a believer, and they went back and forth.

So they've got this great new book out called Cult Shock, the book Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Don't Want You to Read, Joshua McDowell. If you want to get an apologetics endorsement, there's no better person than Josh McDowell, right? CultShock is a great apologetic resource to give you confidence and knowledge to answer many cults with truth and logic. And it sells for $16.99, which is a great price. It's about 250 pages long.

Super informative, but super practical, amazingly practical and informative. And we want to sew it back into you. When they sent me a copy of the book, I liked it so much. I said, let's do this. As you sow into our ministry, friends, and I'm really focusing a lot of time, energy, and attention on some major Jewish outreach projects, both in writing and in particular on video, to go all over Israel.

I mean, some major projects. As you sow into our work and help me, I'm on the front lines of this by God's grace. Help me reach the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then I want to send you, and this applies, we're able to do this within the States, okay? I want to send you as my thank you gift this 250-page book, Kulchog.

So, how do you do it? You just go to my website, askdrbrown.org, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org. Just go there and you'll see right on the homepage your gift of any size. I want to send you this as a thank you gift. Just pray, do what you're able to do, and many standing together really enable us to make a difference.

And I'm looking at a question in. In fact, Ernest, I want to start with your question when we come back about, is there Jewish revival anywhere around the world? I'll give you a report and that update. In fact, God willing, next week I should be broadcasting from Israel. Just got home from Italy and Germany.

Got home last night, Tuesday night, and then Monday night, leave for Israel for a couple of days, and then Germany again for a couple of days, and hopefully broadcasting from both of those countries as well. We will be right back. Can't wait to get to your calls on the other side of the break.

So we're It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. How? How does this happen? How does this happen? I'm looking at a headline on jihadwatch.org.

Third London jihad murderer told Italian police, I'm going to be a terrorist. And he had no trouble. Entering the UK. Does that happen? I address this issue in my latest article that Tolerance will not stop terrorism.

You can read it at askdrbrown.org. You can also read a real shocking article about a new law that was passed in Ontario. in the province of Ontario, in Canada. that let's say you've got a boy who believes he's a girl, eight years old, and you as a parent say, Sorry, son, you're confused, but we're not going to accommodate that. We're not going to let you wear dresses or call you Sally instead of Sam.

That child could be taken away. for the parents. Uh-huh. And raised in a different environment. Oh, I'm not kidding you.

Those are my latest articles. You can read them at askdrbrown.org. I'm freshly back from Italy and Germany, and the phone lines are wide open with any question of any kind whatsoever. That you want to ask me.

So let's start in Syracuse, New York with Ernest. Welcome, sir, to the line of fire. Great.

Yeah.

Curious if you're aware of a Jewish revival happening anywhere in the world. A small yes. and a large no. By a small yes I mean Without a doubt, There are places and instances where God is really working. and Jewish people are coming to faith in unprecedented numbers.

The large No is that by and large around the Jewish world, There was still either great resistance to the idea of Jesus being the Messiah. or great indifference to the idea of Jesus being the Messiah.

So let me give you the negative, then back to the positive. I've been sharing the gospel with my fellow Jews for over 45 years now, since as soon as I was born again. And generally speaking, The same obstacles have to be overcome. the same resistance exists. The more religious and educated the Jewish person, the less interested they would be in Jesus.

And their rabbis have known for decades and interacted with some of them for decades or consistently for years, and they still don't believe in Jesus the Messiah. And obviously they haven't turned my view that he is the Messiah. And along with that, there was a great outpouring, what was called the Jesus People movement, late 60s, early 70s, where many Jews around the world who were in a spiritual search came to faith in Jesus the Messiah, me being one of them. And we haven't seen that happen. the same way on a wide scale.

On the flip side, sir, Some of my friends involved in Jewish evangelism, are seeing large numbers of Jews come to the faith, larger than they've ever seen. They'll do an outreach in Israel. They'll do an outreach in Canada or in Florida. they'll get a crowd of over a thousand Jewish people coming. And have the vast majority respond to the gospel.

None of us have ever seen anything like this. And more and more Probably because information is more available. We're hearing from religious Jews who are secret believers. or who are secret seekers. Think of this as a picture, sir.

There are more and more showers of rain. coming down. there are some pockets of thunderstorms, But we're waiting for the thunderstorms to be coming down all over. Also, on the positive side within the nation of Israel. If you went back 60, 70 years, you'd literally find a handful.

Just a handful. Of Israelis who were believers in Jesus the Messiah.

Now, you've got old 15 to 20,000 messianic Jews, including I don't know, maybe a thousand or more. native-born Israelis. That's wonderful. But that's still a tiny fraction. of what we believe will happen and will be to come.

So thank you, sir, for the question. That's my evaluation. And I'm so excited with the open doors we have now in Jewish ministry. I'll come back to that. before the broadcast is over.

We'll be right back. Thank you for the call, Ernest. God of light, hear our cry, send us fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the line of fire. Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. 866-348-7-884, the number to call.

I've opened the phone lines for any question under the sun that you want to ask me, and I want to get to as many as I can. Let us go to Boston. Eric, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown.

Thanks for having me on. My question is about your views on Islam. It sounds like you have a similar position to Dr. James White. And uh the sources for Islam seem to be contradictory.

some peaceful, some violent, so that a Muslim could be Uh at least To some Islamic tradition, if they're peaceful or violent, they can hold to either one in a valid sort of way. I was just curious if that's accurate, and if so, Um By the way, this is not to challenge you or anything, but just to clarify. And then I was curious if you would ever invite someone like maybe like David Wood or Sam Shimon on to kind of give. An alternative view to that. Guide.

Uh That view of Islam. Would that be something that you're doing? You're accurate. in the way you've represented it. Yes.

Dr. White and I hold to that similarly. By the way, I only found out he held to that similarly when I interviewed him about it because with all of our discussions, we had never discussed that. that aspect in detail. And I was actually just thinking the other day about David Wood specifically, and I'm in touch with Sam as well, some, but I was just thinking about David that I've got to have him on the air.

And I just posted one of his articles about Muhammad on my Facebook page.

So, yeah, absolutely. And I was just interacting with another well-known apologist who reaches out to Muslims. And he said to me, and he's much more of a scholar of Islam than I am. And the same with David Wood, much more familiar with Islam than I am, in terms of just devoting years to the sources and having more interaction, that he said, yeah, there's no question, this other apologist, he said, there's no question that there are many, many peace-loving Muslims, and they too point back to their traditions, but he feels essentially. that those traditions contradict their views.

Just speaking today, all right, then we'll go back in time. But just speaking today, Eric. I believe that A Muslim can be a peace-loving, sincere, devout, genuine Muslim. In fact, that's going to be my next article. Yes, there are sincere, devout, peace-loving Muslims.

They can look at the Quran. They can look at the example of Muhammad. They can look at their history. and they can say we are peace-loving. Our religion is a religion of peace.

We don't like war any more than anybody else. We repudiate the actions of the suicide bombers and terrorists. And they can be absolutely true to their faith as they understand that they're not lying. They're not cheating, just trying to pull the wool over your eyes. And they want to spread Islam around the world the way we want to spread the gospel around the world.

At the same time, I believe that radical Muslims and the Osama bin Ladens of this world can point to the Quran, can point to the example of Muhammad, can point to Islamic history. And say that they have the just cause in fighting against unbelievers wherever they find them. And that would include slaughtering men, women, and children on the streets of London, just as it would include fighting other Muslims in Algeria that they considered to be apostates.

So the question is, which is the original and real. Islam In my view, Both are valid expressions of Islam. although without a doubt, Islam goes the way of violence very easily. and has a history. of violence.

As opposed to the gospel, the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament, we go in a very different direction.

So maybe. Uh if I had David Wood on, he could make a very strong case that Islam and I have had other scholars on Christian scholars who hold to this view. That Real, genuine, authentic Islam. And so they could make a good case for it. And I would not necessarily argue that.

I would simply say That for Muslims for hundreds and hundreds of years, including today, you can be peace-loving. You can be tolerant of other religions. And you can say that you deplore what Muslim terrorists are doing. And even those that would be a bit more militant. would still say, okay, to fight in a war for Allah is one thing.

to go and attack Innocent people, or to blow yourself up at a concert, is not Islam.

So they would reject that as well.

So, hey, I know we could interact on this further, but does that answer your question adequately? Yeah, it does. Thank you. I appreciate it. Great, great.

And so, this is a discussion that will continue and look for some of these folks. And particularly David. I just almost last night, I just got back from Germany. He was a little tired, but I was going to email him last night and say, hey, buddy, how is it I've never had you on my show? Let's do it.

All right. Thank you, sir. 866-34TRUTH. Let's go to Raleigh, North Carolina. Dina, welcome to the line of fire.

Thank you, Dr. Brown. I am so thankful. To speak to you, I wanted you to know that I went to RFA Church a couple of weeks ago to hear you speak. and was tremendously blessed.

Well, thank you. I'm so glad you made it out. And the wonderful thing that God did with that. is that I have A customer that I clean house for And the very next morning after listening to you, She brought up about her. gay daughter who recently got married.

and how she and her husband have been looking for a church but that she has a lot of animosity for the ways she feels that gazer treated or talked about in church? And so we had a very good discussion with your help. One thing you said that stuck with me. Reach out and resist. God enabled me to Yeah.

Although your daughter's actions are contrary to the word of God. Everyone deserves love and respect. And she accepted that, and we had a discussion. I am so glad to hear. That is great, great to hear.

Yes, so Raleigh First Assembly, Great Church in Raleigh, invited me up. And asked, would I talk about the church and homosexuality? And we invited our listeners in Raleigh, North Carolina, to come out.

So wonderful. Reach out to the people with compassion, resist the agenda with courage. You got the message, passed it on. I am so pleased to hear that. Thank you for sharing that.

And I am praying that my church will be prepared to receive people in love with the truth being salt. Which is the reaching out part, and light, which is the truth part of that. And thank you again.

Now, I do have a question that I've had on my mind for years and years, and hoping that you might be able to shed some light on it. When When Jesus was rebuked by Peter, Peters. said you know far be it from you to go to the cross and die. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan, for thou savourest not the things of God. And it the sa that appeared like Satan was trying to prevent him from being crucified.

But clearly at the crucifixion, it would seem otherwise. Yes, you know what? I don't remember. Yeah, Dana, I don't remember anyone ever asking me this question, and it's a fabulous question.

Okay, number one. Certainly to the extent Satan understood God's purpose through Jesus. he would want to thwart that. That's clear. And it says this in 1 Corinthians 2: that none of the rulers of this age knew God's hidden wisdom.

For if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. In that sense, we know that Satan was complicit. In the crucifixion of Jesus, in fact, that he's the one that enters Judas Iscariot. It says, Satan entered him to portray Jesus.

So, Satan is certainly complicit in the Messiah's death on the cross, either blinded to God's purposes. Or just so consumed with murderous lust that That he had to take this opportunity to kill Jesus because he was spiritually blind. Even though he may have understood God's purpose, he was still blind to it. And almost like a man that commits adultery and no one's going to lose everything, but he can't restrain his lusts. That could be part of what's happening.

But I look at the statement that you just quoted, which we have in Matthew 16, Mark 8, and Luke 9, where Peter says, Far be it from you, Jesus, to go to the cross. And Jesus rebukes him as a Satan speaking through him. I look at that as more the satanic mindset. and worldview. which is that Going to the cross is the wrong thing for the Messiah to do because the Messiah is supposed to be the king who's going to rule and reign.

In other words, the human way of how you take over the world, the human way. Of how you dominate. Remember Satan's temptation to Jesus in the garden in Matthew 4 and Luke 4: that if you'll bow down to me, I'll give you the kingdoms of this world.

So anything to Bypass the cross. And I would say there are two different ways of looking at it. One is, that's the first strategy. I'm going to set you up to bow down to me and do it my way, the way of human strength and human wisdom, and I will be your ruler. And you'll be the world ruler, but I'll be over you.

And that failing. then Satan is complicit. In The crucifixion of Jesus. Or Satan always wanted to kill Jesus from the moment he was born. And this was just this satanic, worldly mindset that wants to bypass the cross that Jesus was rebuking.

Thank you, though, for the question. I'm almost sure I've never been asked it before. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, we go straight back to the phones 866-34TRUTH. Michael Brown here with you on the line of fire.

Let's go to Thomas in Florida. Welcome, sir, to the line of fire. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, go ahead. Oh, okay.

Um I was Um Been listening to on Thursdays, and I've been getting into the music, your sound engineer plays, which breaks. I was wondering, I've heard I heard them say the word Yeshua a couple times, and sometimes it means salvation.

sometimes it's the the proper name. How can you tell looking at the Every sentence, one is it a name and one is it um I guess an abstract idea. It's it's two two different words pronounced differently and spelled differently, but if you didn't know Hebrew, you wouldn't know that.

So salvation is yeshua. And it has a final H, okay, Yeshua, with a final H, the way it's spelled in Hebrew, a Hey in Hebrew. And the name Jesus in Hebrew is Yeshua. and it has a final ion.

so they are spelled differently. Yeshua with a final iron, and Yeshua With a final hey, and the pronunciation is slightly different. They are from the same root. namely salvation. But one of them also incorporates the divine name Yahweh, which is then in the name Yehoshua Joshua.

Found there in shortened form, and then that name gets shortened to Yeshua, which would be like Mike and Michael.

So Yeshua is a short form of Yehoshua Joshua. Both related to the same root for salvation, the root being Yasha. But they're two different words. Two different words, pronounced differently. And spelled differently.

Yeshua, salvation, and Yeshua. Jesus.

So that's how you tell the difference. They're spelled differently and they're pronounced differently. Oh, thank you. God bless. You are very welcome.

866-34TRUTH. Let's go to Steve in Tarrington, Connecticut. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Doctor Brown. Hey.

Listen, next time you're in Connecticut, you gotta throw it on Instagram or Twitter or something so I can get my friends to my Jewish friends together and meet with you. Hey, man, you can always check my itinerary on the website, askdrbrown.org. It's always listed. But go ahead. All right, great.

So here's my question. In the garden, Jesus prayed Um And He said, let this cup pass from me. And I was kind of fascinated by that because I know that. Jesus knew the will of God for the Messiah, knew his Father's will for the Messiah, he knew the specific will. You know, for his life that the Messiah would be cut off and bear the sin of the world.

Yep. And um He was in an extremity and he and he was humbly asking, but He was asking God to Change his will. When he knew already that it was in the written word. Right. And I'm not saying he did something wrong.

I'm just saying. How can that be? Right. How could Jesus say? He knew from the foundation of the world.

that he was going to be crucified. The Son of God knew that. The Son of God came into the world for the express purpose of dying on the cross for our sins. And he knew that always. That was his destiny.

That's where he was going. He lived to do his father's will. How could he then in the Garden of Gethsemane say, is there any way to to avoid this. And interestingly, I was just having interaction with a dear brother, a very literate brother, about this very subject, and he raised the same question. I would say there are two possible answers.

One answer is that we're misunderstanding the text. that he wasn't praying when he said, let this cup pass from me, that it was some other cup.

Some claimed that it was the the cup of dying before he'd even get to the cross. I don't see scriptural evidence for that. But that it was some other cup, and he was saying, If possible, let this cup pass for me. The other interpretation, the way I've always read it, is that he was fully God, fully man. That he knew what faced him.

And the physical crucifixion was horrific, but it was the spiritual burden he was about to take on that was so overwhelming. dying for our sins and carrying that on his shoulders. And that He as a human being. just said, Oh, okay, I know what's ahead, and I'm here to obey. Is there any any other way to get this done?

And the answer obviously being no, which is God's way of showing us that there's no other way. And that if there was another way to save the world, which is also an indication that there's no salvation outside of Jesus, if there was another way to save the world, it could have been done. But there wasn't. That's my understanding, but many find that unacceptable. And I understand the arguments and say there must be another thing he was praying about.

In which case, keep studying and see what you come up with. Hey, thank you for the question, Steve. Speaking of speaking to Jewish friends. I am really stoked. Very soon, we are going to begin recording.

Videos, TV programs, exclusively and specifically for outreach in Israel. They're going to have Hebrew captions. I'm going to be looking at footage of interviews with Israelis from secular to Orthodox, and I'm going to be interacting with those interviews and then talking straight to Israelis in English, but with Hebrew captions, about Jesus the Messiah, about the state of their soul. And they're going to be broadcast in every home with cable TV in Israel. The largest potential audience we've ever had.

And of course, they'll be put on internet as well. Would you be praying for that project? And if you want to stand with us today, go to my website, askdrbrown.org. And your gift of any size, I want to send you a really great, practical, 250-page book called Cult Shock. The book, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons don't want you to read.

It is my gift to you for your gift to help us in Jewish outreach. Go to askdrbrown.org, help us today. All right, got a couple minutes left. Charles in Reynoldsburg, Ohio. Time's a little short, though.

Please dive right in. Uh hi. Dr. Brown, I uh just wanted to ask the question. And I'm not one of those individuals who considers Bill Johnson a heretic or anything like that, but our ministry is beginning to use a lot of his materials.

And even like some of their children's information. And even correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought maybe on a recent show, You may have said that you you don't agree with every single thing that that that they teach.

So wanted to ask if you would mind sharing. Um what specifically, if that's the case that that you may not agree with uh yeah listen um I appreciate your spirit and the reason for the call If you haven't listened to my interview with Bill Johnson, then just go to my website, sdrbrown.org. And click on the digital library and just type in Johnson, and you'll be able to listen to my interview with Bill Johnson. It's probably about 45 minutes long, and I raise questions that others have raised for me about the ministry. And Bear in mind that there are plenty of good ministries where I don't agree with everything.

And there are ministries that are completely off that I reject as not being from God.

So I respect Bill Johnson. I believe he and his ministry are doing a lot of good. And I have some areas of difference.

So what would those areas be? Oh. One would be The feeling sometimes that there could be a contrast between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. Would be one, although Bill Johnson's a lover of the Old Testament made that clear on the broadcast. But sometimes you could get that impression.

I would say that there is a blind spot regarding the role and purpose of Israel. which is major. Um And that some might take his teaching to have a kingdom now emphasis as if the church can say, I'll take over, which I do not believe he believes. I tell you what, I'll got to pick this up more maybe on Friday's broadcast because we're out of time here. Be blessed.