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That's right. You guys can help us keep the conversation moving forward by supporting the show. You can share it online with your friends and your family. Leave us a good five star review on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasting content from. Absolutely nothing less than five stars. Link is in the description below, and we are here with our host Dr. Abbadon Shah in the studio today.
He's a PhD and New Testament textual criticism professor at Carolina University, author, full time pastor, and the host of today's show, Dr. Shah. Welcome. Welcome.
We'll tune there. Yeah, I'm having a good day. There's a good day here right here that doesn't belong to you. There you go. You know what? I'm having such a good day for I'm excited about what's coming up next week. We're going to Dallas. Yes.
So excited. This is for those of you who do not know, this is NRB, National Religious Broadcasters Convention. The first one that I went to, the only one I've been to was the one in 1994. Wow. 1994. You'd only been in the country three years. That's right. Imagine getting to America and then three years later you're at NRB.
That's pretty cool. And I didn't have any money. I did not book the hotels, nothing. You know, I'd been through a rough time in my life.
It was horrible. And when you go through those times and you're walking with God, don't lose heart. God always has a special plan.
He has a special present. And so as I was coming out of that difficult season, had rededicated my life to God, I had a new sense of purpose and joy. I come back and I'm in the communications building was sort of like in a basement. It was not really basement.
It was just like the lowest floor, but almost seems like it was underground a little bit. And I was in there working and my professor, Mr. Michael O'Brien, he came by, he said, hey, NRB, you want to go? I said, I did not do any of the registration and didn't put in my deposit. And you remember, I couldn't go.
No, no. I'm asking you, do you want to go? I said, yeah, I would love to go. He said, well, somebody backed out, everything paid for. All you gotta do is go. Wow. I said, absolutely. I'm like, thank you, Lord. I mean, blessings are coming.
And I mean, had just like a month ago, I was like in the pits and now I'm like, I'm heading to DC. Wow. Nothing. I don't have to buy anything.
I don't have to pay anything. I'm just have to sit in my, wrote with one of my other professors who was Mr. Ed Welch on the radio. Get him behind a microphone and he is like the coolest guy ever.
Get him in front of the class. He's like, well, I don't know. I mean, yes, you could sit. I mean, that's what you want to do. I mean, yes. Hello, this is Ed Welch.
That radio personality comes out. But anyways, I went with him and had a great time. And then you guys went last year. We did. We did. We went to Nashville, had a great time, learned a lot, met a lot of incredible people and got out looking forward to Dallas.
It's definitely like saying I'm thirsty. I want to learn a little bit and then putting your mouth on an open fire hydrant. But I'm glad we did because that lets us, that lets us go this year and really be able to say, okay, I know sort of what it's about. I've met a couple of people. Now we're going to go in and we're going to actually try to make an impact. I get to go with you guys. I get to enjoy as well because last time when y'all came back and told me the stories, I'm like, oh yes, that's very true. But NRB, you guys' experience has grown so much more.
And this is where you meet all the big names who are in television, radio, broadcasting. Yeah, it's tremendous. Very much so. Dr. Shaw, your story from earlier goes perfectly with today's verse. Did you plan that?
I don't know if you'd like, we're looking at it. No, no, I just, I just had a little nostalgic moment. It goes perfectly with the verse today. The verse, the verse of the day today comes to us from Ephesians chapter two, verse 19. Now, therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.
I mean, that does go really well together. Like, I mean, imagine you've only been in America three years, you know what I mean? You're, you're feeling, I can imagine you're feeling sort of isolated, maybe not isolated, but you're feeling like I'm an outsider.
I'm not really sure. I know that I don't really fit in and I'm coming out of this hard time in my life. And now here comes this opportunity where God is showing me how faithful he is. That's right. And I think even with us, like we're no longer strangers and foreigners, but we're fellow citizens with the saints and the members of the house of God, there's a place of belonging. And I think even at Clearview church, we, we try to strive for that, that people feel like they belong here.
Absolutely. I mean, that's our goal is to give them not just a church, but a church family. That's right. You know, someplace where you can, you feel like these are your values and if they're not your values, they should be your values because they're coming from the word of God. They're coming from the historic tradition of what Christianity, you know, the heart of Christianity is all about.
And we want people to come in and make that their family values. That's the goal we have. That's right. That's right. So beautiful. That's right.
Guys, don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick break and be right back with more Clearview today. Hey, Clearview today listeners. We want to take a quick moment to thank you for tuning in. As you can imagine, producing a show like this takes a lot of time, effort, and resources. And we're grateful for the Truth Network for giving us a platform to syndicate our show. But the vast majority of our support comes from listeners just like you. If you enjoy these talks with Dr. Shah and you want to see Clearview today continue to grow, consider making a donation today because your contributions help us deliver fun, relevant, and biblical content right to your phone every single day.
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Thank you for being part of this community. Now let's get back to the show. Welcome back to Clear View Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com, or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028. Dr. Shah had a great conversation yesterday about the type of workers that you typically find in ministry, right? A lot of times you would think that people in ministry, because they're working for God's kingdom, they're going to give it their all, man.
They're going to go 100% in. It usually turns out to be just not... That's not true. Unfortunately. His face fell when I said it.
He was like, no. So we talked yesterday about the different types of workers that you typically find. You've got the workers, you've got the survivors.
What was the third one? Saboteurs. Saboteurs. Yeah.
Not the saber-tooths. No. Hopefully you don't have any of those in your workplace, unless you work at a museum. You can always go back and listen on the podcast, but if you're listening on the radio, do you want to just give a quick recap about those three workers and what we're talking about?
Absolutely. So before I do that, before I talk about those three and then today two, which means altogether five different kinds of workers, and there may be more, but those are the big fives that stand out to me. I remember very distinctly, and I'm going back to the year 2010 when I knew that no longer I can do this job alone.
It means now I need someone to come alongside. And so I actually went and did research. And I had worked in the secular field. I was even a principal of a Christian school for four years.
So I had learned how to manage a staff, cast vision, do administration, strategy planning, all that stuff. So I had done that, but not in a church environment. Church is different.
School, even if it's a private school, Christian school, is not the church because there's certain things you can do in a work environment that you cannot do in a ministry environment, although everywhere it should be ministry. This is different, still different. So I was like, okay, Lord, I need to learn. I need to learn how to now have someone else alongside me.
It's not easy to do. When you are the only person on staff, you and your wife, and then all of a sudden now you have to share, you have to think how this changes the dynamics of the leadership. You have to now lead that person or you'll get led by the person. If they're really good leaders, and of course, yeah, that's great.
Please help us go to the next level. But if they're not, they will take it down or they'll try to sabotage you. So I remember very distinctly in 2009 doing research on how to have a staff. What does it look like to work in a church with multiple staff members? And then putting it out for seminaries and colleges, you know, hey, we're looking to hire somebody in a youth slash worship position, which is one of the worst things you can do. Is put them together? Yes.
Judges do that. It's like, hey, look, I got the perfect idea. I got the perfect idea. What if we get us a song leader and a youth pastor together? All in one, two for the price of fun, baby.
And it could get ready. No, no, no. You hold your applause.
It will make a great part time position. I got to give it to them, man. We're going to save all kinds of money over here, man. For the price of half. Can I tell you something?
I'm not joking when I say this. I know that Clearview is not the church, the first church to ever split them apart, but it's the first that I ever saw. Is he going to live in the parsonage?
No, no, no. That's where the pastor lives. That's where the pastor lives.
Now, if the parsonage is so worthless that it's got mold and mildew there, definitely the pastor needs to live. So he'll have a house. He can have that. He can have that one.
As long as he wants to. And he'll be tri-vocational. There are student pastor slash worship song leaders listening to this right now be like, wait, I think these guys are talking about me. Someone knows me. Someone sees me. We get you, brother. You've been had.
Don't go out there and resign. But when people tell me that, I'm thinking, yeah, do you want to kill yourself a young man? You really are out to hurt someone, aren't you? I genuinely, if you were doing worship and or I were doing students, I don't know how it would function. I think they would both, seriously, I think they would both be mediocre. And they are.
They are. That's exactly what happens. And that's what we did at the time.
I was thinking like, well, not a big enough church. And I get it at the time. Maybe it was an okay thing to do. And that's going back, what, in 2010. So that's 15 years ago.
Maybe it was okay for that period of our church's life. And I did it that year, 2010, for like four months. And that person didn't last.
I mean, it was not working out. And then hired another person. And that person did it for two years. And at the end of that, I knew. So in just two and a half years or two years and four months, I knew that is a bad decision. That's the bad model.
Yeah, you cannot do that. And so churches out there, I know you're trying to save money and you're trying to make things work, but trying to have the split position and trying to pay them part-time, you need to do some soul searching. Yeah, you also have to think through like, what are the chances that you're going to find a young man who's really, really great with teenagers? And married. Yeah, a young married man who's really got a heart for teenagers and a heart for music and is good at both.
And can survive on a part-time salary. To make matters worse, I can even add to that. Now, we didn't do that because I had already made up my mind. We had already moved through that phase of our church's life. But some of them were like, and we want them to do us a blended worship. Blended worship?
Which means this, two hymns and then he can pick a praise song. Yikes. I think this is a unicorn. I don't think this person actually exists. Oh, no, no, no. They're all over the land.
Dude, you'd be surprised what people would do for a hundred dollar a week check. They could eat maybe some Chef Boy and eat tonight. And then two hymns and a song. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Look, now, the folks here love him. And that's okay. I promise you, there's so much theology in it.
It's like, oh my goodness. And they'll find them too. I don't know how long they'll last, but they will find those young men.
But they'll find them, but they just don't last. And I don't blame them. So that kind of goes into the discussion is they're not following a vision. You know what I mean?
They're following a set of rules or they're following like a desired culture. Yeah. Yeah.
I guess I would say that. I mean, there is no vision and the pastor does have a vision. It never lines up with the student pastor or the worship pastor or the blended version of a part time, both because who would have the time and the motivation to say, yeah, that's what I want to invest in.
You know, the vision for, you know, pastor, pastor, whoever you are. No, you're like, I'm just buying time because I just want to have something on my resume when I apply for a real job. Right. That's a good point.
So it never really works out. I don't know how a job set up like that could be anything other than a training ground or a chance to pad your resume. Well, yeah, it's really not even training ground.
It's really to pad your resume. Yeah. I feel like, I feel like people in the ministry know that and they're completely okay with it. Like they're, they're like, look, we don't expect this young man to be here more than two or three years. Like that's just the system that we've created. Right. Well, you encountered language like that, Dr. Shah.
I mean, people said that same thing about you. Like we don't expect you to stay. We know what we've got. We know what this is. Way before, you know, Clearview became what it is today. You met people with that same mindset. Yeah. They told me, I mean, you can get another job if you want to. And I did.
I went back to painting and I'd like portraits and stuff, walls. So how do people handle it when you're, when they say stuff like that, like, look, we really don't expect you to hang around for very long. We know you're just trying to get some money and you're like, no, I'm committing my life to this church. As God willing, I will not leave.
Most of the time, if they do say that, they don't mean it. You know, there are people in this town who have said that at times, you know, Hey, that's my church forever. And they left. So after a while the church people are like, sure.
Oh yeah. Oh, look, we love you. We know we were here for you. But inside they're thinking, yeah, the first chance you get to get out of here, you will. So we were the, we are the very, very, very few ones who in a small church, small setting said, we're not leaving. And God's going to do something because we want to not in a sense, put God to trust, but to test where we're going to trust God. And we're going to see if this really works.
I mean, that's one of the motivations I had. Does it really work that I preach the word, love the people, work my tail off, plan the vision, the core values, the mission, assemble a team, and can we in a small town, small church, build something that will touch the world. And I know we're not quite there yet, but that's, that's the goal. No, but I think, I think that you are, you are evidence that it does work and that God is using it to make it work because there is a vision and it's not just a vision for this church, but I feel like the vision of Clearview is starting to spread to our community at large. And I think that it's more than just, and we are a small church, but I would say we don't feel like a small church. We certainly don't operate like a small church.
I mean, we do have this feeling of a small country church in the sense that we are, we have those values, but we're not like a small country church that's stuck in our, you know, traditions. See, there's, there was one more, I guess element in this, this, this whole, you know, mixture here. And that is, I was not from here. I mean, not just that I was from another state or another part of the country.
I was, I didn't even grow up in America. So that made the challenge even greater. So it's not just God. This is a small dying church that has been marred by liberalism and legalism over the years. It's like a weird mix of, we don't believe everything in the Bible and yet we will judge everybody based on, you know, you know, whether they wear a dress or not, or what kind of version of the Bible they're using.
Is it KJV only or whatever? I mean, it was a really weird mix. And then here I come, you know, want to reach the world, blah, blah, blah, you know, create a vision. What made it difficult was I was not even from here. I didn't look like anybody from here.
So it's not even like, okay. Yeah. He looks like us, but he grew up in Scotland. Yeah. He looks like us, but he grew up in Spain. No, it does not match anybody here.
Doesn't sound like anybody. I mean, now what? I think that made it a bigger challenge for God, but of course for God, there is no challenge. So as you're looking at this, you know, this team to assemble, as you're looking at, you know, building this structure out, do you find people coming in who fit the bill of things like workers or things like survivors, or are you looking specifically for people who operate in the follower category? Well, I do know.
And, and, and, you know, in the previous episode, we covered those three. We will cover the workers. They just come in, punch in, punch out. They don't really care if, if their time is up, they're leaving. That's about it.
Okay. Then we talked about the saboteurs. They're the ones who come and they, they, they have, they have some dysfunction in them. They will try to tear things down. They don't like the success.
They don't like the limelight on somebody else. They want, they want it for themselves. And at the heart of it is about money.
Give me money. I want the money. And so they are the saboteurs. Then the survivors, they're, they're the ones who will get on board, but they're really not on board.
They're, they're simply trying to eke out a living. You know, I'm going to get something out of this because I'm, I'm, I'm a survivor. I don't submit to anybody. So I'll sing your, your tune and I will dance your dance, but I'm not ever going to buy into the vision you have. This is not my long-term plan. This is not my long-term plan. This is not my long-term place. I'm simply passing through. I'll do what you need me to do, but inside I will never submit to you.
I would never commit to this vision. The people that you're looking for are the followers. Okay. People at least I was looking for that. People who will come and capture this vision and not just capture and say, just do what Dr. Shah tells you to do or Pastor Shah tells you to do, but come and enhance the vision. Make it bigger. I've laid the foundation. The vision is really the foundation by the way.
Now build on it. Take it to the limit. The sky's the limit. Yeah. And do you feel like people like that are rare or do you feel like people like that can be big, like workers can become followers? I think they can.
I think workers, survivors can become the, even saboteurs can to some extent, but it's very difficult. See, cause when I came, when I came at 21, I definitely wouldn't consider myself a follower in the sense that I like, like at 21, I don't know that I could have grasped a vision to change the world. You know what I mean? It was like, I really love this church because this church is much bigger than my church that I'm, that I'm at right now. The people seem much friendlier. I think we met at Denny's and like had dessert. We stood out the window, stood out the window outside the window waving. I was like, Hey, so like when I was in like a t-shirt with like holes in it and stuff, there was definitely no like in that first meeting, there was definitely no like way that my brain was going to grasp. You are going to buy into a leader's vision and commit your life to making someone else's vision become a reality because in that your vision will come into perfect alignment.
That was nowhere in my head at all. But I think through the years I started to see like, wow, I remember there were, there were people who came to you like while we were talking just in tears and be like that, that sermon changed my life. Let's talk later. Cause I need to tell you. And like people were coming in and being like, I feel like my marriage has been saved. I feel, I feel new.
I was like, dang, like God is really working here. And I think through the years, that's what kind of led me to think, okay, I can really contribute to this place in a great way that keeps this vision intact. Right. Right.
Yeah. And also be benefited in the process. It means you get to achieve your vision as well. So it's not just that, you know, you're just contributing somebody else's vision. No, in the process, what vision you do have, you find its place within this larger vision and you're able to have the freedom, the autonomy to do what you want to do.
Right. I think for me, when I, when I started, it was, it was like, I'm so excited to be working in a church. I'm so excited to finally, cause I've been applying to church after church after church in seminary. And it was just, just a steady stream of rejection for a year or more. And I was just so discouraged and so disheartened. And I remember, I didn't even know where Henderson was on the map. And I remember looking at the employment portal and hitting submit on this church out in Henderson.
And I was like, I don't even know where that is. This is the last, this is the last resume I'm sending out. I'm just going to write it out for another year. See ya!
Good luck, fly away. At that point, I was so discouraged. I was like, whatever, maybe I'll hear a call back.
Maybe I won't. I'll get through this last year and then we'll figure it out from there. And then two days later you called me and said, I'd like to meet. And I was like, okay. And from the moment, from the moment that I saw your heart for the community and saw your, like, we're, we're doing this and this, we have this initiative working with people in the inner city and we have this outreach. I was like, okay, well, this is a church that where things are happening and this is a church that cares about the community. But when I started, I was, gosh, 24, I think when I started, I didn't understand, like, here's a vision.
Here's, cause I didn't grow up in a church like that. Here's a vision. Here's what this church is trying to accomplish. And here's how I can come alongside and enhance and support and further. And even benefit from it. I'm sure that was not the first thing you thought, but you eventually realize, hey, I'm being benefited through this.
Yes. There's all sorts of things that like grow, like when you are in the ministry that you want to do, you dream of, right? Like you dream of putting on big concerts. People come to watch you dream of going to a studio.
I was sitting in Kannapolis when we were recording the single and I tell the team, every time we go, I'm like, guys, take a minute, like, think about what we're doing. Do you know how many churches dream of this day? And, and because Dr. Shah has a vision, because we go to a church where the pastor not only allows this, but supports it, wants us to be doing it. We get to do stuff like this. When you do it all the time, I think you can start to lose that.
And so that's why I like to remind myself, like, dude, I get to, I get to like come and do this radio show. It's not a solitary vision, but it's a salutary vision. Hmm. I'm not going to fall for it. No, but you have to decide.
You cannot just do that. Solitary, but salutary. That's the second one. Salutary? You better decide.
Salutary is when I'm buzzing. What do you think? I mean, it's not solitary. Why would it be solitary?
I think he goofed up. I think the secret word is something else completely. I'm going with salutary. Is it salutary? Yeah, it is. It's beneficial. I said it's salutary.
It's going to be one of them. It's so funny because when I did that, David and I looked at each other like, have you saluted it? And I was like, yeah. I didn't even. But it had nothing to do with the word.
Oh, gotcha. Oh, I thought you were setting up like the joke, but I didn't know you were setting up the secret word. That was pretty good. What was that? See ya.
See ya. Wouldn't want to be. But I mean, like to think about the stuff that you get to do when you're in ministry, I think it's all coming back around. It's like a lot of people treat the ministry like it's easy work. And it's not easy work, but man, I can't think of work that's more rewarding. I can't think of work that I get to wake up and get to be excited and say, what fun project are we going to do today? Not just because it's a fun project, but it's a fun project that God has put on our plate to change people's lives. You know, whether it's an album or a book or a radio show or whatever it is, like the student ministry, youth ministry, whatever it is. Just seeing how God is using it, you know, that's what makes it rewarding.
And to know that he's using it. And I don't know if you ever felt this, Dr. Shain, I know we're running out of time, but I don't know if you've ever felt this or if people in ministry feel this, but sometimes I feel like a lot of people will leave their job at the end of the day and be like, is God really in this? It happens.
Oh my goodness. It happens, especially in the West. My dad used to tell me that back in the early eighties, and not just tell me that we would have discussion. In the evening, you know, there is no television. This is pre-television days. Television was in India, but not in our hometown.
The satellite or the cable or whatever was in the time was not in our hometown. So in the evening after news, they would talk. That's a strange concept.
Mom, dad, you know, rest of the family, the siblings, we would talk. And one of the things dad would often say is, man, in America, in the West, people can be unpredictable. Like if things don't go their way, you know, they may leave the marriage or they may leave the job or they're very random.
I remember him saying that. I was like, random, how does that work? Random.
Random means you just do what you feel like doing. And if you, if you think about it, a lot of our movies and our songs are based around that. If you feel, if you don't feel happy, leave. And that was a foreign concept to you back then. Right.
Just because you're not happy. You know, that's what we're talking about. Right.
Oh, this will make me happy. No, capture the vision. And then in time you will, you will, you will reap the harvest. So the final person is a leader. It falls a lot on the leader. Are you a good leader?
Maybe someday we can talk more about that. What kind of a leader you have to be so you will have followers and not collect a bunch of survivors or saboteurs or workers. You're going to have them, but your goal is to make them followers of the vision that God has given to you.
And for that you have to work at it and seek at it and sacrifice for it. Amen. Amen. So good. So helpful.
And talking about, you know, the different types of people that are in a workplace and what it takes of a leader to make those, uh, those workers and those, uh, those saboteurs to transform them into followers. So good. Make sure you guys join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clear Read Today show. John, anything you want to plug as we close today?
Yes, absolutely. Dallas, Texas. We are coming your way at warp speed. We are going to be at NRB. We already said that at the top of the episode, but make sure that if you're there, you come by the booth, say hi. We may even shout out your ministry. We're going to be doing some live shows from the floor. Also want to remind you that Dr. Sean Nicole's book, 30 Days of Praying for America Daily Devotions to Heal Our Nation is out right now on Amazon. It's book three of a three book series, and you can also get all of our original music on iTunes, Amazon, Spotify. It's under Clear View Worship. Just make sure you search that. We've got a brand new single coming out very, very soon. That's right. Make sure you guys join us for the conversation tomorrow. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear Read Today.
