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Tuesday, January 14th | Theologians vs. Biblical Scholars

Clearview Today / Abidan Shah
The Truth Network Radio
January 14, 2025 6:00 am

Tuesday, January 14th | Theologians vs. Biblical Scholars

Clearview Today / Abidan Shah

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January 14, 2025 6:00 am

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In this episode, Dr. Shah talks about the difference between being a theologian and a biblical scholar and why we should love God's Word either way.

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What's going on Clearview Today listeners? It's David here from the Clearview Today Show and I just want to let you know that today's episode and today's secret word is brought to you by Mighty Muscadine, king of the superfoods. Mighty Muscadine offers a variety of products from their signature Muscadine grape juice to powerful dietary supplements.

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Today's secret word is jettison and that means to throw something away or abandon it. And today's secret word contestant is Ryan Hill. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abaddon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. You can find us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com. If you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028 or you can email us at contact at ClearViewTodayShow.com.

That's right. And we want to help you guys help us keep the conversation going. You can do that by supporting the show. You can share it online. Leave us a good five star review on iTunes or Spotify. Absolutely nothing less. Than five stars.

Link in the description below. And we're here once again in the Clear View Today studio. And you know who we're here with. Y'all act like y'all don't know. Y'all act like this is like just a cute game. Something I say every day.

But y'all know who we're here with. It's Dr. Abaddon Shah, who's a Ph.D. in New Testament textual criticism. Professor at Carolina University.

Author, full-time pastor and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome, my friend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Good to see you on this beautiful Thursday afternoon. Yes.

Yes. It's good to be here. Excited. A lot of good stuff. A lot of things happening all over the country, all over the world. But God is still sovereign. God is good.

A lot of good things are happening. That's right. That's right. In fact, that leads us right into the verse of the day.

I thought you were I thought you were reading it there for a second. The verse of the day today comes to us from First Corinthians Chapter one, verse nine. God is faithful by whom you were called into the fellowship of his son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. Sometimes I just need that reminder that God is faithful.

And you know what? I'm tired of feeling like a bad Christian because of the Bible. It feels the need to remind us that God is not granted. He was saying this to the Corinthians.

So maybe I don't want to be compared to them. But at the same time, it's like if the Bible reminds us in all the Psalms and all the scriptures that, hey, remember that God is faithful, then sometimes it's OK to say, you know what? I need that reminder today. It also means that we're prone to forget if we get that many reminders in scripture.

It must mean that people throughout history have been prone to forgetting that God is faithful. That's right. That's right. Yes.

Yes. And we we need to believe that we need to believe God is in control. God is faithful.

And he is not some bellhop running up and down trying to figure out what what key to use. No way for that. Don't even don't even try it. All right.

Don't even try. You sure? OK. All right. I'll keep going. OK, keep with the episode.

So it was just unusual enough that I was like, hmm, is he's he's not some bellhop running up and down the corridors of heaven trying to, you know, figure out the right key. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I'm not going to do it.

I didn't say that. R.G. Lee said that. OK. R.G. Lee like R.G.

Letourneau? Or is it actually R.G. Lee? He was the first.

He was a pastor at Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee, back in the day. Gotcha. Well, could the word be bellhop? Could the word be corridor?

That's for you to decide. I would be I would be upset if it was corridor. I think we would have to.

Yeah, I'm looking at you, too. I think we would have to redo the rules of. Yes, we probably just need a new word. What do you call it? A word dispenser. Yeah, word dispenser. What would that be? I was trying to do something with a verbal something.

Like a verbal like a sommelier, but not someone who does wine like something like a like a verbal verbal yay. There you go. There you go.

I want to bring back a segment that we sort of dropped. Sure. Because things have been going good in life, but sometimes they don't. And so with that said, welcome to the grapevine. Wow. This is the segment of our show where we air out these everyday annoyances and give them the attention they deserve. You know, sometimes in life these things just get up under your skin. Right.

Speaking of your chin, I feel that in my sternum. Yeah. So we got some new speakers in the studio.

Big shout out to Nicholas for putting these pages rattling. I have some piano players who don't like sitting too close to the sub because they don't like the vibration. And so for years I was like, that's kind of weird. I get it.

I don't like the vibration. Yeah. That's a lot of.

OK, so picture this doctor. Tell me because I shopped this. I shop a lot of these grapevines to the staff just to see if if I'm the weird one.

I want to know what your take is. You're at a restaurant and you've just. Finished your meal and then the waiter swoops in and says, hey, can I get you a to go box? And you're like, yeah, I didn't finish everything.

I'd like a to go box to take home. The waiter picks up your plate and himself scrapes all your food into the to go box. Yeah. Are you happy or you annoyed? I know it's it's some restaurants do that. It's odd.

It's odd, but I'm I go along with like, OK, I don't want I don't want to keep pretending like I'm grateful. I don't like it when the waiter Olive Garden is the worst. They're the worst about it. I've been to Carabas.

I think it's a lot of Italian restaurants. They'll do it. I don't want you scraping my leftovers. Yeah, I don't want. And Adam said this and I I'm not going to say I'm not going to agree with him, but I think it's funny that he said it. He said, I don't want to feel like mommy is sorry. He said, I don't feel like mommy is scraping my lunch or scraping my leftovers in boxing is up for me. Yeah, so I don't like it.

I have worked as a waiter. Yes, right. And I did that. But I always asked first, I always ask, would you like me to box that up for you? Yeah, that's better. Most of the time people say, no, no, I've got it.

But then again, Ryan, you're you're not the average. Yeah, no, most of them snatch your plate up, scrape all of it. I don't want someone scraping my food the minute because I like if if you don't ask, it's it's a little strange.

I know some restaurants will just take it and do it. If you don't ask, it's a little weird. I know it's supposed to be the fancy thing. Yeah, we need to jettison all of our manners. It's not.

I think it looks I think it looks track. What did you say? What did you say? We're doing the jettison all of them calling that one. That was a good call that the show jettison jettison jettison jettison jettison kind of kind of hodgepodge.

Yeah, I had hodgepodge last week. jettison means to throw something away or abandoned. You throw a board. I don't I just it's not classy. Okay, like if a stranger starts scraping your food, it's also technically supposed to be done away from the table. Like you're supposed to have, you know, the trays they carry with a little fold out thing. You're supposed to set that up away from the table, take the plate, scrape it over here, and then I'll present you with the box. Like if I'm taking your dish, that's how it's supposed to be done. That's that I that will my enters for you.

That might be okay. Yeah, then my foods like I was taught to do. So they also they like cram it into this box. So all the juices are flowing together. Are you a person out to show where you're like, I don't want my food to touch.

I don't want the juice, the potato juice getting into my like greens or whatever. I prefer not to, but I'll go along with this. That's the best they can do. I prefer not to.

Yeah. So if they asked you, would you like me to box your food? Would you just say it's okay, I'll get it. Most of the time I sort of just sit there. You know, I usually don't have anything left. I'm usually hungry.

I'm taking food home. Yeah, it's like I'm good. True.

So but but if I had to, I would rather do it myself. It makes me feel it makes me feel kind of dumb. It makes me feel kind of weird just sitting there watching a stranger. And it was it was what was crazy to me was everyone in the office that I shot this spot, like even Nicole, they were like, I like it. It makes me feel fancy. Yeah. And I was like, you like sitting there. The next thing the waiter says is like, now go wash your hands.

Yeah, I know. It's crazy. Like imagine them scraping your food and then the manager comes up and says, can I talk to you about washing our hands? I saw you come out of the bathroom and not wash your hands. You take your food and just throw it right into the trash.

Promptly into the trash. Anyway, that's my gripe. A lot of people have been missing the gripe vine. Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of people out there. It's back. It's back.

It's back with a vengeance, too, because I got some other ones. We're going to talk about our Star Wars novels in a couple of days. Yeah, I told Dr. Shaw about that. We'll talk about that later.

Guys, don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick break and be right back at you with more Clearview today. And you want to see Clearview today continue to grow. Consider making a donation today because your contributions help us deliver fun, relevant and biblical content right to your phone every single day.

That's right. Every single donation, big or small, goes directly to the production of this show. It helps us keep the lights on in the studio.

It helps keep the mics hot and running. So if these conversations are making a difference in your day, or if you just want to help us keep the gospel of Jesus Christ in the airwaves, we would appreciate your support. You can give by visiting our website. That's Clearview todayshow.com and just click on that button that says give today. And remember, your support truly makes a difference in our show.

Thank you for being part of this community. Now let's get back to the show. Welcome back to Clearview today with Dr. Abbadon Shaw, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can visit us online at Clearview todayshow.com or if you have any questions for Dr. Shaw or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028. That's right. And we're here again with Clearview. Oh, I messed up. I had a cool bit I was going to do.

I was going to do the credentials up top. I was going to say we're here again with Dr. Shaw, who's a Ph.D. in New Testament Textual Criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. And then it was like, oh, you already said that at the top of the show. What I was going to go with that, if I hadn't fumbled it right at the starting line, was that, Dr. Shaw, we list your credentials at the top of every episode for two reasons. Number one, it sounds really cool.

It's got a great cadence to it. Number two is we want people to walk away from the show knowing that it's a credible show. Yes, that's right. That if you are listening to an episode of the Clearview Today show, you walk away confident about everything you just heard. Anybody and we say that a lot of times that we're a radio show first and we list your credentials because at this time, anybody can have a podcast. Anybody can have a platform. Anybody can get on the airwaves and say whatever they want for better or worse.

That's right. But we want this to be a credible show where people hear your opinions and they walk away satisfied and they walk away confident about the theology and the doctrine they just heard. And I think that led us, the three of us, to an interesting discussion. I think we talked about this over lunch one day, the difference between theologians and scholars, like biblical scholars. Do you want to just kind of talk about that for a little bit?

Because I think that you had some really, really great points that I hadn't considered. Yeah. So this is not a new debate. This has been going on for quite some time between biblical theologians and systematic theologians. And so the big debate is who is right?

Who is better? And I personally, I am a biblical theologian. OK, so I can go and tell you where I am. But I highly value systematic theology. If you had to put like an explain like I'm five, the difference between systematic theology and biblical theology, what would that be? So biblical theology is focused on the text, whether it's Old Testament or New Testament. I can also kind of go over some of the history of biblical theology in a few moments. But so biblical theology is more focused on getting the theology out of the text of scripture.

Not worried about what Calvin said or what Grudem has said or Millard Erickson has said or Thiessen has said. I mean, we want to hear what Paul is saying in the Pauline Epistles or what Matthew has said in his gospel or what Johannine theology is. Or if you want to go to the Old Testament, then you're talking about, you know, the Pentateuch or the writings or the prophets or the exilic or non-exilic. So we're focused on just that, the text.

If it's in the Bible or not. Got it. Exactly.

Got it. Now, doesn't mean the systematic theology doesn't come from the Bible. It also comes from the Bible. But systematic theology kind of lays out arguments or, you know, the thesis for Trinity.

OK, OK, right. And it's taken into account what the discussion has been over the centuries and how it comes down to what this theologian has said and that theologian has said. And based on their argument, this argument, cross-referencing and creating a systematic theology. So in biblical theology, you would say your arguments would come from the text itself.

Right. But but in systematic theology, you would you would broaden it out to say, hey, look, remember what this theologian said, remember what Wayne Grudem said about this or remember what they said about this. And to kind of explain a little more. So let's talk about God. What is the doctrine of God? So we're going to go everywhere in the Bible trying to find scriptures for God. What is the doctrine of the incarnation? Go everywhere in the Old Testament, New Testament, find out the doctrine of the incarnation, resurrection, Trinity, church, eschatology. We're going to just find out and then create the theology based on all these texts. So a lot of this work has been done. So what we're doing now is sort of saying, hey, the way you formulate your theology there has a problem with it.

Mine is better. Let me explain to you. Here's why our view is better than your view on that theology. Biblical theology, the focus is more on the text, text, text. Why is Wayne Grudem considered? Why is everyone I mean, I know he wrote a book called Systematic Theology, but why is his name attached to the the practice itself so heavily? It's just because of that book? Not necessarily. I mean, I just mentioned his name, but there are others out there.

I mean, there's in my office, you will have good grief. You have Calvin's Institute. You have I have, of course, Millard Erickson, because that's what I read. By the way, he got an award for Lifetime Achievement Award at ETS in 2024 for the first one to be given out. And but I read his Systematic Theology or Christian Theology. Yeah, I wasn't implying that you that you had said I just hear his name more often, like even people on TikTok, people who talk theology, they always mention Wayne Grudem.

Wayne Grudem, great scholar. I love his work. I love his Systematic Theology. I love his work on church and politics.

I love his work on ethics, on just he's written a lot. So this tremendous theologian. So Systematic Theology, you're starting with these doctrines and then looking for the text to support or refute, you know, something like that. Biblical theology, you're starting with the text itself and then building a theology from there. So they almost function as opposites and yet they can go together.

They should go together. OK, so there are two books that came out. This one came out by it's called Five Things Theologians Wish Biblical Scholars Knew.

It is by Hans or Hans Borsma. And this one came out. I'm trying to get the date on it.

I cannot find the date on it. Anyways, it doesn't matter. But this one came out a few years ago and everything is from the perspective of a systematic theologian.

Wow. And the conclusion of the book, Hans Borsma says, academic specialization, OK, academic specialization brings both gains and losses. That book, sorry, I don't have the name of the entry. It was published in 2021.

OK, 2021. Yeah, I have a Kindle copy. And in Kindle, it's very hard to find the dates.

It's usually in the back of the book. Yeah. But anyways, and it usually means greater understanding within a narrower field. OK.

I mean, that's the essence of biblical theology. Wow. Greater understanding within a narrower field of knowledge. It also typically means less understanding of other fields of study, even areas that may be related to one's own.

Wow. This is what a systematic theologian is saying about a biblical theologian. So are pastors automatically theologians? I, they are, they may be, but I wouldn't say they're academic theologians.

Right. Unless they have an academic degree. That's what I was going to say, in a sense that anyone who is deriving their theology from scripture technically would be a theologian.

However, on an academic level, those are different playing fields. No, there are pastors who are, who did not get an academic degree, but, or just people who have not got an academic degree, but they were tremendous theologians and scholars, like John Frame. I like John Frame. John Frame does not have a PhD, but man, he's written like crazy. Is he a scholar? Oh yeah. So, so can you be a, can you be... But that's very rare.

Really? I mean, John Frame, in my opinion, is, is, is brilliant, but he doesn't have a PhD. Can you be a theologian and not be a scholar? Like, like is there a, is there a marked difference between this person's a theologian and this person's a biblical scholar?

Or are they interchangeable? Yeah, yeah, that happens. Like biblical theologian and not a scholar?

Yeah. Like, is it like, is this person a theologian, a biblical theologian, but they're not a scholar? Not operating in the academic setting. Like, I guess what I'm saying is a lot of pastors will just say, I'm a theologian.

I love the Bible. I look at the text, I blah, blah, blah, but they're not in the academic field. Yeah, I wouldn't, unless they are, they have created some, some reputation of speaking and writing and interacting with people who are in the field. If that has happened and they are being peer reviewed, okay.

But like I said, it's very few and far between. So theologian is a fundamentally, more or less, academic term. Right. Okay. Right. Okay.

Scholar is also an academic term. Right, right, right. I think there's a difference in people who love to study theology and love to learn about theology and, and preach theology. Sure, sure. Which every pastor should be doing.

Yes, absolutely. Versus being able to call yourself a theologian. Right. I think that's, I think there's a distinction there. Yeah, like a lot of, a lot of pastors and a lot of preachers who aren't pursuing any academic degree, they're not contributing to the field.

They're just learning more so they can preach better. I would say they are theologian with a small T. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. If you want to say, if you want to put it like that, they are theologian with a small T, but not with the big T. How could you help?

What, or what advice would you give? Cause I think a lot of those pastors are a lot of those preachers who aren't scholars, but they want to be theologians. They want to be deep. They want to, they want their words to carry credibility. Like when you speak, for instance, I'm, I'm pretty much going to trust your theology. I've, I've sat under your preaching for about 13 years now.

We've done this radio show for about two years now, and I've learned a lot. So when you say something that's coming from the Bible, I don't have any reason to suspect that it's not well researched and it's not true. So your words carry credibility. I think that's also why people listen to the show. If there's preachers out there who want that, that credibility, but they're not contributing to the academic field, what would you say to them? But something else there too. Not only have you heard me preach for 13 years, but you were there when I was given, awarded the PhD.

It's true. You were there in chapel, right? Yeah, I was there. And when, when my name was called and I think you whistled. I, I tried to whistle. Your daughter was bullying me. So Abigail was bullying me. She was like, you better whistle.

And it was like, I tried. They were like, do not clap, do not cheer, do not make any noise. This is supposed to be solemn, like a, like a serious moment. These are doctors.

This is like the highest level. They were like, please save your applause for the end. And Abigail was like, you better whistle. And she scared me so much that I tried to whistle and I like did the, that's what it sounded like.

I tried to whistle and it didn't happen. So I went for it. But you were there. You were there when, when I was awarded the, the PhD in, in my field of New Testament textual criticism. You were there when my dissertation was published, right? So, so you've seen that. You've seen me travel to go read papers at, at theological societies. And of course, you've never been there, but you have seen me and seen pictures of me speaking and there are articles I've written. So, you know, it's much more than just, man, he is, he's just well read and, and, and up to speed with what's happening. You actually know my credentials. That's different.

So if a pastor wants to be, to be that theologian in the sense of interacting and, and, and responding and all of that in the academic field, and he, he needs to go get a degree. Yeah. Yeah.

He needs to go to a place, make sure it's credited, you know, an accredited place and get a PhD. Is that something that... Or a THD. I mean, they're, they're, they're, or a THM. Right.

You know, I would even count that. Is that something that, how, how do I want to word this question? Is it something that pastors should desire to affect the larger field around them? If God is calling you to go get a PhD, by all means, go. Don't go to get the PhD just so you can satisfy your intellectual curiosity. Right. Okay.

If that's what you're doing that for, yeah, you can do it. It's just going to be a heavy cost. I was going to say, it's a lot of work and a lot of money just to, just to be like, okay, I learned it.

On your family, on your children, on your ministry, you need to have a church that understands, you need to have a family that understands what you're trying to do. And if you're doing this just so you can satisfy your, your thirst for knowledge, well, just get the books, read. Just read them. Attend conferences, go, go. There are a lot of conferences where you can sign up and go. Like you can go to the ETS. You may not be a voting member, but you can attend ETS. Gotcha.

You cannot go to the book sale if you're not a, if you're not a PhD, PhD or, or a student or something like that. You, you gave me a bit of advice one time. I think it was when we first started podcasting, it was, we were, we had a show called Hoi Paloi. And I was, I was starting to get into it and I was like, man, I'm disappointed because our content is gold and we're not getting the views. We're not getting the numbers that we're getting now.

And we weren't getting the numbers that we wanted back then. I remember you said to me, it was like, you don't have to, you don't have to be the expert immediately, but you have to be in the conversation. There's a conversation happening that you're not in.

There are people who are really good at podcasting and they're trading deals, they're making deals and they're getting them on the show and them on the show and they're trading favors and you're not in that conversation. So you just got to show up. That's right.

And I remember that was the best. And I don't think that's what you're saying now. Like, Hey, it's just enough to show up.

But that's the first step is like, I can't just not contribute to the field and still call myself one of them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's why theologian with a small T is a good description.

Makes sense. Now there's a counterbook that came out and I think it came out the same year, 2021, but maybe somebody can check for us. It's called Five Things Biblical Scholars Wish Theologians Knew. Now, is it the same publishers? Like I was going to say the Scott McKnight got ripped. The other guy, the covers are almost exactly the same, but it's a set. But the thing is Scott McKnight wrote this one and it is forward by Hans Borsma. Gotcha. Got the author. And the other one was Hans Borsma is the writer, the theologian, and Scott McKnight wrote the forward. Oh, nice.

Five Things Biblical Scholars Wish Theologians Knew came out 2021. So they came out together, I guess. They came out together same time. Nice. Okay. So in the conclusion of his book, Scott McKnight says this. I don't think I will ever be comfortable with systematic theologies.

Wow. Remember what Hans Borsma said? That biblical theologians are too concentrated on a smaller material and not aware of what's happening elsewhere.

Right. Scott McKnight, who is a biblical theologian, now responds in this book saying, this is not to say that I don't read them, talking about systematic theologies, learn from them and adjust my thinking about the Bible in light of them. I was reading Katherine Sonderegger's Systematic Theology as this book was in his final edits.

I love it and get irritated by it at the same time. I understand that. I understand that because biblical scholars often go, but that's not what the text means.

Yeah. That's not the essence of Paul's theology. Using that to make a claim about ecclesiology or the Trinity or some doctrine. But that's not a true picture when you really study it in its context and in its genre and all that.

That's not what it means. And systematic theologians will come back and say, yeah, we may not be right about it, but we have spent enough time thinking about the ramifications of certain doctrines, their critical doctrine or primary and secondary and tertiary. We have spent a lot of time to know these are the boundaries and these are the structures and the framework for what we believe and how we believe and why we believe. So my view is this. I believe systematic theologians give us the framework, the boundaries.

Biblical theologians fill in the rest of the space. That makes sense. Yeah, I like that. So do we need both?

I would say absolutely. It's like a house. You need the walls. You need the roof. You need the floor.

You need all of that. But if that's all your house is, it's going to be a very uncomfortable place. You need other things to make that house stand. And this may not be a perfect illustration, but you need other things for that house to stand. You want to make sure that the walls are durable. You want to make sure it's the right kind of structure, the wood or the steel framework. It needs to be the right kind and the right measurement. The roof is not just something you put up there so it will keep out the rain and the sun, but it needs to have the right slope on it.

And what kind of roof fits this particular house in this part of the country? See, that's where biblical theologians come in. So we've got to go hand in hand. So I love both, even though I'm more of a biblical theologian, like I'm doing the study on the end times. I'm spending a lot of time reading on prophecies and reading the book of Romans right now because I'm going to begin there. And more specifically, Romans 9 through 11.

Because if you understand who is Israel and why Israel is so integral to God's plan of salvation and consummation, you will not understand end times prophecy. Yeah, it makes sense. You'll misunderstand it. Let's just put it that way. I'm so excited. Yeah, it's going to be a good series.

Yeah. Make sure you guys join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're diving into another great topic here on the Clear View Today Show. Thanks again to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring today's episode. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen or share with a friend. And you can always support us financially at ClearViewTodayShow.com. John, what do you want to leave our listeners with? Definitely want to plug Dr. Shot and Nicole's book, 30 Days of Praying for America, Daily Devotions to Heal Our Nation.

You can get it on Amazon right now. I said last week that we've got some new music in the pipeline. Definitely want you guys to be looking out for that because we've got some great, great songs coming out here in just a little bit. But while you're listening or while you're waiting, you can be listening to our debut album, Heaven Here and Now.

It's available on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere that your music is sold or streamed. That's right. Just want to remind you guys, if you have questions from today's episode, maybe it's sparked a thought that you had, or maybe you want to chase a rabbit trail down the biblical theology or systematic theology road, text us at 252-582-5028. We do our best to respond to those questions. And who knows? You might just get your question answered on an episode of the Clear View Today Show. Make sure you guys tune in tomorrow. Same time, same station. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear View Today.
Whisper: medium.en / 2025-01-14 08:16:00 / 2025-01-14 08:29:24 / 13

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