If you saw your little child, your son or daughter, playing in the street, what would you do? You do everything you can to stop them and bring them back.
So why is it when we see our Christian brothers and sisters in sin, we do nothing? Let's figure that out together. Coming up right now on the Clear View Today Show. Yeah. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah.
If you're listening for the very first time, Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here.
Good to see you. It's a great conversation today. And you know, one of the reasons that we have conversations like this, sit down and talk, is to provide a clearer view on issues that we're facing, on things from the Bible, and on things that, you know, that we require in order to walk through the Christian life. Dr. Shah, you bring a perspective that's both the mind of a scholar and the heart of a pastor that helps alleviate the confusion and help us zero in on what the Bible really teaches us.
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Dr. Shaw, in today's episode, we're picking up the conversation from yesterday. We talked about backsliding. And how that's a common theme through the Christian life. Many people struggle, and most of us spend the Christian life coming back to God.
But it's not just about us coming back ourselves. As you've pointed out in James, we have responsibility to our Christian brothers and sisters. Yeah. Ernest Hemingway wrote this poem years ago, and it's a novel about the Spanish Civil War. And it's titled For Whom the Bell Tolls.
I've heard it.
Okay, he got his title from a famous line by John Donne. John Donne is the one who wrote this poem that I'm about to read. In Meditation 17, it says, No man is an island entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If it clawed A clot of dirt.
Be washed away by the sea. Europe is the less. Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. John then wrote these words, and then he ends with, and therefore. Never send to know for whom the bell tolls, It tolls for thee.
Now you gotta have a little bit of a context here. John Donne, by the way, was the pastor, I say, of St. Paul's Cathedral in London, which is a beautiful ornate building. It was destroyed in some of the Nazi bombings, I believe, and a fire or something, and then it was rebuilt. It's just very beautiful.
John Donne was the pastor there centuries ago. But on the back of St. Paul's Cathedral is a statue, just a bust, I would say, of John Donne. And I told Nicole, I said, We have to go find that bust. And so we began to walk around, walk around.
I was like, There it is. And I found it. And it was like right on the path.
So people are walking through, and I'm trying to make a video on John Donne. And they're walking straight through my shot. And I was like, okay, all right. It's like, hold on one second. No, you can go through.
You can go through. I'm like, this is not going to happen. And finally, I did it. But John Donne is evoking an imagery of a small English village. And we've been to some of those English villages when we traveled in England or in Great Britain, where you have a church in the center of town.
That's how it used to be. and churches had bells.
So you would have those bells toll during Christmas, during special celebrations, weddings, but also when someone passed away, the bells would toll. And when they did, The question was. Who died? Right. Who died?
Yeah. What John Donne is doing is he's capturing that statement and asking us: never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. I mean, it's not saying, like, don't ask who died. But what he's saying is, just know that every time someone dies, a little piece of you also dies. Yeah, because you're part of the whole, you're part of humanity, you're connected.
Yeah. So What does that have to do with our message today? We as Christians should be even more. Touched or gripped by that poem. I came across that poem years and years ago in my British literature class in college.
And I was like, by the way, John Donne was an amazing poet. He was. He he got saved. Yeah. A little later in life.
And so he lived a very wanton life, a very careless life. He was horrible. But then he got saved. I mean, he was like a Casanova. He was a ladies' man.
He was a ladies' man. Then he gets saved and he wrote a sonnet to his wife. I mean, it's unbelievable, beautiful sonnet. But then he also wrote things like this as a believer. And When I read that in the class, I don't know what other people were doing.
I'm sure everybody was touched by this a little bit. For me, it was deeper. And it remained with me. And to this day, it remains with me that when someone dies or something happens to somebody They may not be directly connected to me. They may not be related to me.
But just keep in mind. Everyone is related to someone.
So when something like that happens, Is it what?
Someone dies? No. Yeah. Someone's Young child goes off the deep end. When someone's Marriage struggles.
When someone is a victim of some addiction, some abuse. Don't Send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for you. Means it should impact me and go. They're living In the radius where the bell tolls.
What am I doing to help them? Not that I walk around with guilt and burden, like, oh, I need to save the world. I'm just a horror. No, but at least it should cause me and cause you to go. If they are in my radius or my circumference of influence.
What did I do to help them? That's right. You know, as Christians, I think a lot of times we are very happy to adopt that metaphor when things are positive, right? Like we're part of the whole, we're part of the body of Christ. All of us influence each other and encourage one another and lift each other up and celebrate together.
But then it comes to this. Aspect of responsibility, right? And then we, I think, a lot of Christians would balk at that. Wait, are you saying that when someone sins, it's part of my responsibility to bring them back? I mean, that's between them and God.
I don't involve myself in that. And even like we were talking about yesterday, James would say very differently. Yeah. Well, go back to the book of Genesis. You have Cain and Abel.
When God came and asked Cain, where is your brother? What was his response? Am I my brother's keeper? Yeah. Am I my brother's keeper?
Am I responsible for him?
Now, of course, he was speaking with blood on his hands. He was guilty of bloodshed, killing his own brother. Can you imagine that? First family. First family on the face of the earth.
Mom and dad walked. With God, with Jesus, the pre-incarnate Son of God, and their children killed. One killed the other. And it's not like they were cavemen. We need to discard that horrible idea that these were cavemen who evolved and became.
int intelligent and and None of that is true. Yeah. They were very smart. They had a deeper understanding of the things of God. Mm-hmm.
They got it. I mean, Adam and Eve would have had some memory of a world that was perfect. Yeah. Right. So they themselves were created as perfect human beings.
Right. Before the fall, of course, but they would have memory of that. Of course. Yeah, absolutely. They had a memory of the Garden of Eden.
And it's very, I mean, it's common sense that they would teach that to their children. Like Cain probably had, Cain and Abel had secondhand knowledge of exactly what it's like to walk side by side with God. Yeah. So when you read, like, say. The New Testament Paul's letters.
You read Galatians two twenty, For I am crucified with Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. You say, Man, Paul is deep. I believe that principle that the life of Christ is in me and helps me live.
Adam and Eve knew that. Cain and Abel knew that. People in the Old Testament knew that. Before the flood, they knew that. You say, come on, that's not possible.
They walked with God. Enoch walked with God. Enoch was pre-flood. Enoch came before Noah. He walked with God.
Does that mean God came down? In the person of the pre-incarnate Son of God and walked with Him? Maybe. Yeah, it could be. He did it with Adam and Eve.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, God did those kind of things. Right. Or maybe it's when it says he walked with God, is that he had a deep.
Awareness Of God's presence in his life.
So walking with God was not just a physical person standing next to him. or a spirit being It may be just a great awareness that he is in me. He is with me.
So We need to Keep in mind that they knew all these things and yet One killed the other. And then when. The question was asked, where is your brother? Am I my brother's keeper? We, since the beginning of time, we feel like I am independent.
This is my life. My freedom, my time, my personal space. You are responsible for your decisions, so if you crash and burn, that's your problem. I'm not responsible for you. And to some extent, I get it.
You know, you and I cannot walk around carrying the burden of the whole world, only Jesus can do that. I get it. But in some ways, John Donne is 100% right. I am connected to you.
So anything you do. Good or bad. In some way impacts me. That's a great point. We should feel that pull.
We should feel that ache when someone is suffering or someone is turned away from God or someone is stuck in sin and they need to be brought back. We should feel that pull to help them. We should feel that pull to bring them back. But so many times, I was going to ask when that filtered into society of this whole like individualistic, it's just me and God. But I mean, we just had that conversation.
That's been there since it has been there since the beginning of time. And to some extent, I think the average Christian, I would say even every Christian knows that what you're saying is true, right? We should feel, because when we see these things, and we talk about this, when we see other Christians crash and burn in their life, whether they're big public figures or whether they're just Christians we know, we say things like, oh, it's so sad. This is so depressing. It's so blah, blah, blah.
But inside, we feel a little vindication. Inside, we feel a little bit of, well, you know. I was kind of waiting for this to happen. Or even just thank goodness it's not me. Thank it could be that.
Even just relief that it's over there and it's not over here. But we know because the things that we say don't match what we feel inside. The things we say are so sad. The kingdom of God has really taken a hit today, or all of these things.
So we know that we're connected and we know that there is some sort of mutual, or there's at least supposed to be some sort of mutual responsibility among us. The more spiritually mature we get, the closer we get to the heart of Jesus Christ. The more biblical we become, the more spirit-led we'll become, it should bother us. When something happens to anyone, it doesn't matter if they look like you, related to you, of a different ethnicity, different skin tone. It does not matter.
It should bother you. When you see that young man getting shot, it should not be like, well, you know, those kids who come from that neighborhood, you know, that, you know, it just doesn't have any. Any proper family structure and all that. No, it should bother me. Right.
It should bother me that, how did that happen? He said, Well, it just doesn't bother me.
Well, maybe that's where we need to say, God. Let my heart be broken by the things that break your heart. Yeah, absolutely. Or turn that around. When you see somebody who is Very well off.
Very poised, very culturally sophisticated. And they do something. That is Immoral, unethical, it should bother us. Like, why did that happen? And I'll be honest with you.
Yeah. Many times it doesn't bother me. And that's one thing I have prayed for as a pastor over the years. And I've gotten better at it. where when the bell tolls I don't say, Oh, who was it?
Now it's like That's part of me. And I think one thing that you've taught me, and maybe it's just taught me just through just being here and working under you for so many years, is that the things you care about are the choices you make and not necessarily the emotions you feel. And what I mean by that is, you, it may be like, hey, it doesn't always bother me, but it is something that I think you do care about because one of the four core values of our church is that we care about lost, unchurched people. These are not just people who are dying and going to hell. Yes, that's true, but they're also people who are ruining their own lives in the community around us.
I think every church has communities around them where people are not living right. And so, for you, I think to make that one of the core identities of your church and our church, I think it speaks volumes about the things that you chose to care about. You know what I mean? Because you know that ultimately the community we're in affects us. It affects us as the body.
Yeah. And the flip side of that is true. Like we should affect the community that we're in. We should, it shouldn't just be we're here in church and then the community life is happening. Happening around us.
No, because we are here, the community should be a better place. Aaron Ross Powell, the word that you use there, care, we should care. In our culture, we say, I don't care. Yeah. I don't care.
It doesn't bother me. And that's not a sign of, oh, I'm free. I mean, I live my life. No, that's a sign of a very immature person. And that includes me.
I don't care. You can do whatever you want to. I don't care. It doesn't bother. No skin off my nose.
All those things are really another way to say. I am not the person I need to be in the body of Christ. I'm not the person I need to be who claims to be a Christian. A Christian is a little Christ. How did Jesus live?
He cared. He cared for sure. He cared. I mean, how often did he go after the multitude and help people who were just there for food? How often did he confront the Pharisees and the scribes?
And you say, Well, man, yeah, they were always opposing any wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. Many of the Pharisees and the scribes actually got saved. The Bible talks about that.
So if Jesus didn't care and would not confront them, they would not have been saved.
So he calls them out, and many, not all of them, Many opposed him. But many of them got saved. Paul was one of those Pharisees who got saved. That's right. That's right.
Wow. The Sadducees got saved, the Samaritans. He cared about the Samaritan woman enough to sit with her. By the well, outside the Samaritan village and talk to her. and bring up her her her C V, if I may say, her curriculum vitae of all the husbands she had, and the one she was living with was not her husband.
I mean, she he laid it all out. Yeah. And then share the gospel with her. He cared about a member of the Sanhedrin named Nicodemus. He cared about The the Roman soldiers.
He cared about The Gentiles who came to him. He cared about the adulteress or the woman caught in adultery. He cared about Uh A thief on the cross. His buddy was, or the other guy was mocking Jesus, but this thief says, Remember me in paradise in the midst of not just physical suffering, because I think that was important, but that was not the most important thing. The most important thing is he who knew no sin became sin for us.
Imagine carrying the burden of the sin of every human being upon yourself. and being the perfect Lamb of God. In the midst of that, Jesus stopped and said Today, you will be with me in paradise.
So, there's people listening to this right now where they're, I already can see how the conversation in their mind is going. And I think you answered it brilliantly, where they can say, Well, you know what? That's Jesus, and I'm not Jesus. But you're a Christian, you're a little Christ. And so.
Imagine the person listening to this now, and they're picturing themselves sitting in the church pew. And three or four rows up is that brother or that sister who they know is struggling with sin, who they know is not living like they're supposed to. And right now, if they're anything like me, the thought of confronting that person, the thought of even bringing it up to that person is making them just swell up in fear. What encouragement do you give? How do you even approach?
Bringing up someone's sin. Yeah. Pray. The f and prey is not just a placeholder. Pray is the main thing.
The place to begin is by praying. Take time to talk to God about that person. Take time to ask God. To Turn that person around. Open their eyes.
to convict them. to guide them. To bring people into their paths, to bring scripture, to give you the opportunity to talk to them. Every single time that I prayed for God to change a person's heart. God did it.
Now, you say, well, did you pray for every person that God would change their heart? No, sometimes you don't feel led to pray that way.
Sometimes God just lays on your heart to just trust Him.
So, you know, that's why people, when they talk about some prayers get answered, some don't. No, when you truly pray. According to God's heart, and you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, you know when you need to pray that prayer and when not. And it's got nothing to do with bitterness or unforgiveness or any of that.
Sometimes God says, No, don't pray that. I'm not going to answer that prayer. But I want you to pray this. Do pray this. And I will do that.
And it's not like God just heaped burning coals over their head. No, no, many times he'll break the teeth. No, so many times those prayers are as simple as God, would you just bless that person? Why? Because God says, Bless those who persecute you.
That's what I want you to pray for them. I don't want you to pray, God, would you just turn their heart around and make them Billy Graham? No, God says just pray. That I will bless them. And then leave it in my hand.
And I pray, God, would you just bless them? Today? In every way imaginable. And God, I'll leave them into your hand. Several things happen.
Of course, God blesses them. But God also sets me free from any kind of vindictiveness. Any revenge, feelings of revenge that I may have. God sets me free. And and then I can move along.
And know that Praying according to God's will. Yeah. It's all done. I love it. What is the trajectory that we should take, or how do we know when to act, or when to interact with people who maybe it's a loved one that we have, or someone we go to church with, maybe somebody in our stunted school class that we know is stuck in sin or has wandered away from God?
We can see it. We've prayed for them and we feel like. I we feel like we need to reach out and help them back in some way. What does that process look like? How do we begin that?
By the way, let me just begin by giving you two warnings. When you try to help someone who has backslidden? Number one, when you try to help someone, don't think that they will always receive it well. Yeah, I think that's a good warning. Most of the time, they may not receive it well.
Yeah, they may get offended. Yeah, like I was thinking about that. Like, how do I begin to bring up someone's sin to them? Like, what if they get angry? I like that warning is they probably will.
They might, and they probably will. Yeah. I receive emails. From people very angry, how dare you? Who do you think you are?
You have. Turn me against God. Or if it's not turning against God, it's like, oh, so I'm telling you, you've made me almost lose my faith. I'm like, Okay, you're living in sin. You were wrong, but if you if that makes you feel good, if if sending that note or the card or the letter gives you some kind of cathartic experience in hitting someone, okay, you take that up with God because.
I have nothing to do with it. Yeah. So just know that many times it may not be received well. Also remember when you try to help someone, do it with humility. Don't be condescending.
Don't be puffed up. Consider yourself as Galatians 6, verse 1 and 2 says, Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass. You who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Considering yourselves, lest you also be tempted. Spirit of gentleness, not judgmentalism.
Not anger. Gentleness Keeping in mind that you also could be in the same sin. in the same quagmire. If it wasn't for the grace of God, I think that's something that you've instilled in your team very well: is that when we see people who have fallen, when we see people who have do have done things that they're ashamed of or that they've been exposed, you know, I think one thing that you've always said to us and to the team is that, you know. Don't ever think it can't happen to you, yeah.
Therefore, go by. You're, yeah, that's right. You're one bad decision away from that being you.
Now it's your face on the news, now it's our church in the news. Yeah, and it's a constant thing to be aware of. Yeah, and that brings that sense of humility. It's not coming with a sense of like, now let me, who is more of a spiritual expert, I'm your wisened elder, and I will sit down and I will educate you about all the ways that you've been wrong. Right.
No, I mean, we have the same struggles. We have, we deal with sin, we deal with temptation, we deal with issues like that.
So it's coming from a place of gentleness and of love because you're my brother, you're my sister, and it hurts me that you are wandering away from God and I want to help you. Yeah, not to. Beat you over the head, but to restore you. That's right. And so always approach in a spirit of humility.
In a spirit of gentleness, you can never go wrong. And when you come with gentleness and humility, you will probably not say things. that will cause Irreparable damage. You'll be more careful. When you become haughty, when you allow the adrenaline pump to start rushing through your veins and you come with that kind of a spirit, you may say things that Maybe true, maybe not, I don't know, but they may not work all things together for good.
That's right. They will do some irreparable damage. You never have to take back. What you never dish out. That's right.
So best just. Be quiet. Take it to God in prayer. Use wisdom. Be patient, be gentle, be humble.
When you're helping that person, just know the rules could be reversed. Within moments, you could be the one. Facing a jail time, you could be the one Losing everything.
So Approach that situation with the same gentleness that you would wish people would show you if you were. In that place, great point. That's so wise. And it helps us, those of us who have loved ones, who maybe we can sense or we can see from their actions that they've wandered away from God. They're living a life that is far away from how God would have them live.
And it helps us to know how to approach them in love and in gentleness and to restore them when they've backslidden.
Well, yeah, and it also gives a gravity to the situation. I like that you gave those examples, Dr. Shaw, because a lot of times we think of people being stuck in sin as like the church gossip. You know, someone who's. You know, just thinking impure thoughts.
But I mean, there's people in your life who are struggling with addiction. There are people in your life involved in crime and involved in some really, really dark things. And I'm not saying that to, you know, to have that. There's a weight to it. You know what I mean?
There's a weight to sin. There are real live consequences that people deal with. And I think this, what we were talking about earlier at the beginning is true. If you're truly connected, then their crimes hurt you. Their sins hurt you, or they should.
And it's a great place for us to come back to and say, God, if we're really, really not moved by this, then maybe something's wrong with me. And that's where we start. That's right. Guys, we're going to continue this conversation on to next week's episode. Make sure you join us, same time, same station.
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