This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Hope in the Morning. turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. Suicide is a life-shattering event in the life of any family, and Christian families are not immune to this tragedy. My guest today is a pastor's wife and mom, and serves as the National Director of Women's Evangelism at the North American Missions Board.
But before she held those titles, she held the title of daughter and sister. Catherine, thank you for joining us today on Hope in the Morning. Thanks, Emily. It's an honor to be here with you. I'd love to just jump in and kind of start with the trial portion of your story in your own words.
Yeah, this definitely is a topic that we don't talk about a lot. And I think we don't talk about enough. You know, when I was growing up, so I'm one of three. Children. I actually am the middle child.
I have an older brother, his name is Barrett, and then a younger sister at Kimberly. And, you know, our family just feels like we were just like the average family, you know, nothing special about us, just enjoyed life together. And, you know, when I was 22 years old, that's really when my world just sort of turned upside down as we faced the unexpected. You know, I went to the University of South Carolina for college, and my dream in life was to be a news reporter. And so I studied broadcast journalism.
I was serving in my local church at the time with middle school and high school girls. And it was the last semester of college when I felt like the Lord was changing the trajectory of my life and sort of called me into more vocational ministry. I didn't know what that looked like, but I had an opportunity to intern at the church and explore this calling that He was placing on my life. And there was a guy there that I was serving under who said, Hey, If you could see yourself doing this full time, I would recommend you go to seminary. And so I went to seminary, and it was my first semester.
I remember going home for fall break. And I had only been home for a day. And everything was honestly just normal, you know, until I got a phone call. And this phone call came in at 2.22 in the morning. And you know, Emily, those phone calls at that time of day typically aren't good.
So I remember picking up the phone and I saw my brother's name bear it across the screen. And honestly, I put the phone back down because it was 2:22 in the morning, you know, and it was like the Lord just prompted me: hey, you need to answer this call. And so I answered, and I'll never forget what I heard as he just was crying. And screaming my name, and he just kept saying, I can't keep doing this. And my brother, you know, he had struggled in the past with some alcohol use and drug use.
But it had been several months that he had been clean. And so I was a little confused about what he meant when he just kept saying, I can't keep doing this. Just fast forward a little through the conversation. He just had had a difficult night. He turned back to some of his old ways.
He had gotten drunk and just felt like he would never get out of this cycle. And through the course of our conversation, he told me that he was going to end it all. He was going to take his life. And I remember just begging with him: you know, you don't have to do this. Like, just go to sleep, sober up, things will be okay in the morning.
And for whatever reason, he just could not grasp that. He told me what he was going to do, and he did. He took his life that night. Hmm. I mean, that's something that.
It's the call you never think you're going to get, right? And I think you had said in your book that. He had had struggles like that before, where he had kind of said, you know, I. I don't want to keep going on, but it, but nothing came of it in those conversations. And so, um, You mentioned that there was something just different about that night where you very much took him seriously and you got your parents up, and you guys ended up going to his house.
Right. But I want to put a little caveat here too for our listeners to understand. Because again, you, I'm going to show the book to those that are watching on YouTube, but you have all of this written down in your book. And you talk about the fact that Barret did know the Lord. He loved the Lord.
He had a relationship with him. And I want us to be mindful as believers that. Just because we are believers doesn't mean that we don't struggle. with things. It doesn't mean that we don't struggle with past sins.
And There's that wrestling of the spirit and the flesh. And even as I read your book and listened to the audible version of it, It reminded me kind of of how Satan tells us you'll never be free. Of this, you know, you don't measure up. As a believer, because real believers would never struggle with XYZ. And those are things that Satan can whisper to us in the darkness.
And so, why did you feel like this was an important topic to take out of the darkness and put into the light? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, research shows that every 40 seconds, Someone is taking their life.
So, when you think about that, you see what an epidemic suicide is in our culture and in our world. And honestly, when I was writing this, I didn't even know that stat. But I know about a year or two after losing my brother to suicide, the Lord started prompting me to write. And I was like, there's no way I can do that. I don't have anything to offer here.
And I sort of just let it go. And it was like, even while I disregarded his calling to write. He was faithful just to prompt every single year. And so when I finally said yes, Emily, it was like every time I opened my computer to start typing. I would either get a phone call from someone who was struggling with the thought of taking their life or someone who had just experienced loss.
By suicide. And part of me took that as like, I'm not writing on this because it just brought up so many emotions and so many struggles. But then the Lord was like, No, this is why I'm calling you to write it. There's not a lot of resources to help someone see. How God could possibly be at work in the midst of such circumstances, you know?
And you brought up a really great point earlier when you said, hey, A lot of people think, oh, if you're a Christian, like there's no way you would struggle with something like that. And we know that that is not true. And I actually had to go through a whole journey of figuring out, you know, distinguishing truth from lies and circumstances like that. But the Lord was so clear on: hey, this is not about you, but I'm calling you to write this. This is about what I want to do through you and through this resource to help people see that there really is hope in the midst of such deep hurt.
Yeah, I love that you are giving a resource and a voice actually to those people that have struggled with it because it does often become one of those things that. Is it's a hidden thing, whether you're struggling with it, especially as a believer. And because we do this ministry of hope in the morning, like you, I've heard of many of these stories of people that were actually believers and struggled with it. And I've shared before on this story, on this platform, that I struggled with those thoughts postpartum with one of my children very badly. and got to the point where it was pretty extreme because it was hidden.
Right. And because I felt like, I, where do I go with this? And there's so many lies that the enemy whispers to us if it's kept in the darkness. But there's freedom that comes when light is shed on that. Have you found since you wrote this book?
I know you were saying that every time you went to write that you had people contacting you that either had contemplated that themselves or were in the process of going through that from a loved one. Have you found that? there are many instances within the church where people have contacted you as well. Oh, absolutely. I would say, even since this book released in September of 2025, I have heard of people sometimes week after week, but definitely monthly, you know, of Christian families who are walking this journey.
You know, the scripture says that the enemy came to steal, kill. And destroy. And a lot of times we don't think about just the spiritual warfare side of this, you know, but this is what the enemy wants. He wants people to think, hey, You have no purpose. Hey, you're never going to get out of this cycle, or whatever the lie may be, you know?
And then the other thing that I see a lot is for people who have lost someone by suicide is just this aspect of isolation. Like he wants people to walk this journey in isolation because it's when he does his best work. And I saw that in my own life: how he just fed me lies, especially late at night when things kind of got quiet around me. You know, he just does exactly what you said earlier. He fills our minds with these lies.
And so it's so important, I think, even for a resource like this that can point us to the truths of scripture. When we can't seem to remember them or hold on to them ourselves. Yeah, Catherine, do you think that there's isolation because There's almost an element of shame for the family that's left behind, feeling like, why did we not know? Or was there something in our family that caused this? Was that true of your own circumstance?
And do you find it true of others? Yeah, honestly, I think there's so many reasons that we tend to walk the journey alone. I do think there's an element of shame that a lot of people experience. But then I also think this guilt factor that comes in. And I know for myself, you know, after losing my brother, all I could think is, how could I have prevented him from doing this?
How could I have kept him on the phone just a little bit longer? Why did he feel like this was the way out? You know, and then you get into these questions of like, why did God allow something like this to happen if he is good and if he is faithful and if he is who he says he is in his word? Why did he allow something like this to happen? And so you start to.
Take on this, all of these different emotions and thoughts, and a lot of times, I think we just don't know how to articulate those or express those. And I think a lot of times we feel like. No one understands. And I think that's an area of isolation that the enemy uses so often: nobody understands. I felt like that.
At that time that I lost my brother. I think I knew one person. That had walked this journey before me, and that was it.
So, everybody that was around me or close to me. I'm so grateful that the Lord provided a village of people around me, but there were times where I'm like, I just don't think anyone gets it. No one can relate, no one can really. Really what I feel, you know. When we come back from the break, we're going to talk about ways that the church can step in and be that village for people.
What should you say? What should you not say? And tackle some of the tougher topics and questions on this topic.
So, join us again in a moment on Hope in the Morning. Yeah. John 13, 35 says, By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. Do you know how to best love and serve your hurting brother or sister in Christ? Listen to Hope in the Morning and be equipped to offer the hope of Jesus to every hurting part.
To learn more or to partner with our ministry, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. Uh Have you ever struggled to comfort a grieving friend? John 11:35 says, Jesus wept. When Jesus was told by Mary and Martha that their brother Lazarus had died, Jesus wept. Today on Hope in the Morning, we invite you to learn what it looks like to weep with those who weep.
Learn what it means to sit in the ashes and be encouraged that even in our morning, there's hope. His name is Jesus. Visit hopeinthemorning.org to learn more. As a grief counselor with years of experience, I can testify that Hope in the Morning is one of the best resources out there. Out of all the grief books I've purchased and that others gave me, this is the book that has helped me the most.
These stories don't showcase the individuals as heroes who battled and conquered the worst. The stories of Hope in the Morning provide a marvelous perspective, allowing the listener to focus on Christ rather than self. These stories remind me of who my Savior is and that there is truly hope in the morning. To learn more, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. Welcome back to Hope in the Morning.
I am joined today with Catherine, and we're talking very openly about the topic of suicide. And you wrote a book that has become a really powerful tool. For not only the church, but people that aren't believers. I mean, you talk in your book about how even some campers that you went to this women's camp for teenagers and. Your story impacted at least one young woman's life when she was really in the throes of considering suicide herself.
And we don't know what is going on. in the homes around us, in the lives of people around us, and That's something that, as a church, we need to be really connected with one another. It's easy in this social media era. To feel like you're connected with people because you're seeing their posts. I mean, we all know what you had for dinner last night, right?
But to really know what's on their heart and what are they struggling with, and to be able to. to be able to understand what are the things that the enemy is feeding them. What are some of the lies? And As a church, we need to be equipped for these kinds of circumstances. What would you say are some of the things?
Let's start with what some of the things that you should not say to someone. That has just gone through the suicide in their family. What should they not say? Yeah, I think one of the things that we often say, and we mean well by it, but it's actually not the case, it would be this: hey, it gets easier with time. That's one thing that I heard a lot.
Just give it time, it'll get easier. And I know what people mean by that. And the truth is, we do become more accustomed to new rhythms and we do have a new normal as we get into rhythms of life. But I would say that it doesn't really get easier with time. You know, this year will be 18 years since my brother took his life.
And there are days where that feels like forever ago. But then there are other days where it feels just like yesterday. And there are, you know, songs on the radio that I will hear, or something that someone says that sort of triggers really just thoughts. And emotions and memories, really, from my brother and his loss. And I think one of the things that the Lord's really taught me through this is: you know, wounds do heal.
But scars last for a lifetime. And this journey of walking through losing someone to suicide, it really is a lifelong journey. It's not something that is just all of a sudden okay one day.
So, that would be one thing that I would say. Maybe try to avoid saying to think about it. Yeah. Did you have people? I know that this can be sometimes, and it's a little surprising when you dive into it, but it can be a controversial topic.
Because there are people that feel almost like suicide is the unpardonable sin, and it's the sin that condemns you to hell. Which actually, I think that maybe a lot of believers don't know this, but that's a very Catholic belief. That's not what we would believe. You know, it would be put, it would really be put in the same category as murder, it's it's self-murder, right? And you see where the Lord redeemed.
And saved murderers. Did you deal with people kind of making those assumptions and accusations? And if so, how did you deal with that? Yeah, I'm so glad you bring this up. I actually received an email from a reader of the book less than a month ago.
Who said she had this very thought because she had been taught the same thing and had wrestled with where her loved one was because they too took their life. And I do mention this, address this topic in the book because of this view that you were talking about. You know, I had never heard that honestly until. After my brother took his life, you know, I said I was in seminary at the time, and I remember going to my very first class. after coming back from his funeral.
And it was a counseling class, and there was a student in that class who didn't know what our family had gone through and had no clue. But he raised his hand, and I remember the professor calling on him. And this was the question that he asked: He said, Why do we tell Family members that their loved one is in heaven after they take their lives if we know that's not true. And in like that. That took me back.
Like, I. Those were moments where it just felt like salt was being poured into open wounds after what we had just. walkthrough and I had never heard that before. And I didn't know what to do with it. I remember just closing my books and my notebook, and I found the closest exit, and I left the class.
I don't even know how the professor responded that day. And the enemy started using that in my life to make me question my brother's salvation. And I knew, I was so confident that my brother had a relationship with the Lord. And I knew that he was in heaven, not because of anything that he did or did not do here on earth, but because of what Jesus did for him on the cross. And so, as I started wrestling through that, finally, I got to a point where I said, I just need to talk to someone.
I went and talked with my pastor at the time and his wife, and I'm so. Grateful that they sat down with me. And that's really where they started talking to me about spiritual warfare. And how that plays out in our lives sometimes, and how that was playing out in my brother's life that night. You know, when he called me, he knew that there was hope in Jesus, he knew there was forgiveness, he knew these things.
But in the moment, the enemy was just. Just pouring screaming lies into his mind, you know. And so it was this battle, this spiritual warfare that was taking place. And I'll tell you, my pastor and his wife just led me to Romans chapter eight that day. And I'm so grateful.
If you don't mind, I would love to read the scripture right now. It's Romans chapter 8. Verses 37 through 39, which says, No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life Neither angels nor demons. Neither the present nor the future nor any powers.
Neither height nor depth nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. And that right there, Paul writes this in the book of Romans. And what that means is that there is nothing, no mistake. No sin, no decision that can separate us from the love of God for those of us. Who are in Christ?
Once we are saved. We're saved forever. We don't do anything to earn our salvation or to win our salvation, and we can't do anything to lose it. We are saved because of Jesus and His love for us and our faith in Him. And so that was the changing, the really the turning point in my life where I could say, Okay, I'm going to hear statements and thoughts and beliefs like.
Suicide is the unpardonable sin. But that's not what scripture says, which is why I think it's so important that we have people around us that can point us to truth.
so that we don't just believe these other lies. Absolutely. And that's part of why, that's actually part of why we wrote this book, which is Hope in the Morning, which is this preceded the ministry. But it was because we had heard time and time again. When I say we, I mean me.
I had heard time and time again people that would contact me and say, I'm really hurting in different areas, okay, of grief. And they would say, and this was said to me, and it was so hurtful. And it was usually within their church. And it wasn't that they weren't malicious statements. They just were not thought out.
And they were things said by people that just were not equipped for the conversation. And so that's why I came up with hope in the morning because it was like, just like with your testimony, if we can hear your testimony. and walk a chapter or in your case, a book. In your shoes. And then really dive deep into what does scripture say on that topic?
How can we actually be a comfort to them where our words are like honey? to these hurting hearts. We need to know how to rightly divide the word of God, but we need to know how to compassionately apply it. to those that are hurting. And your book does a beautiful job of that in the circumstance of suicide.
Because it can be very isolating, as you said. But I think about how here you were in this counseling class. And, you know, Pastors and counselors need to be equipped every bit as much as the layperson in the church needs to be equipped. We're all called to that as believers because we're all. Counselors to some degree, and I'm sure that you have found that to be true.
What do you wish that more Christians understood about this type of laws in particular? One, I would say none of us are exempt, you know, from sin in general. You know, is this God's design? Is it his desire? Was it his?
his um plan or desire for for my brother to take his life no Well, we know we live in a broken world and you know We don't. We don't know what we're going to face in this life. What we do know is Jesus says, in this world. you will have trouble.
So we know we're going to walk through troubles, and maybe it's loss by suicide. Maybe it's struggling with these thoughts ourselves. We're not exempt. from sand and brokenness. But the hope that we have.
Jesus goes on to say, but take but take heart. I've overcome the world, you know? And so, one thing that I would say that I hope more Christians would just know. Is how to respond in these times. You know, one of the greatest things that I think we can do for someone who's walking the journey of loss by suicide is really just to show up.
I think one of the greatest ministries is the ministry of presence. in these times And I think just being available and being present goes further than any words that are spoken or any actions that are taken in those moments. And I think if we as the church can be equipped. Really, just to know that, I think it'll go a long way. Just show up.
I think about what scripture says in Galatians 6:2. It says, carry one another's burdens. And in doing so, you'll fulfill the law of Christ. You know, we're not expected to walk the journey alone. In fact, we're not called to walk the journey alone.
We're called to do it in community. We're made for community. And so, one, just for people to know, hey, just show up because simply being present will speak so much louder than any words in the moment. I think another thing that's so important for us as the church is just to be able to acknowledge unanswered questions. I don't know about you, Emily, but when I'm talking with someone who's struggling, like, I want to have the answer.
I want to fix it. I want to help things become okay, if that makes sense. But oftentimes, we can't do that, you know, because there are so many times where there's more questions than answers. And I think for us to be able to help people acknowledge unanswered questions, I think it also goes. A long way.
One of the things that you might hear often is this phrase: it's okay to not be okay. And I wish more people said that to me. It's okay to not be okay in these moments and to not have all the answers and to not be able to understand it. I do think there's a phrase that needs to be added onto that, though. You know, it's okay to not be okay.
But we don't have to stay that way, you know. But don't stay there. I think we process these unanswered questions and we seek the Lord. In those moments, and allow him to do a work in our lives in those moments.
So, I think that's one thing, too. I love what Jeremiah 33:3 says. He says, Call to me, and I will answer you. That's just such an encouragement to me. And I hope for listeners to this episode.
Is that we can just call on the Lord. And he doesn't say we need to understand it all. In fact, one of my life verses after losing my brother became Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, which says, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways, and he will make your path straight. And I think there's a reason why he says not to lean on our own understanding.
It's because we don't see the bigger picture like he does. You know, we don't always know what he's doing or why he's allowing something to happen. But what we do know is if we keep our eyes fixed on him. And we seek him, he will make our path straight. He's at work in the midst of the details.
And I've seen this over and over again in my life: how he takes really Genesis 50:20 and has brought it to life. In my own life, which says he takes what the enemy intends for harm and he uses it for good for the saving of many lives.
So, and we're gonna talk about that on the podcast portion as we continue this because the Lord did not leave you in your suffering, he redeemed it. Your book is an example of that.
So, join us on the remainder of this episode on our podcast or on our YouTube Hope in the Morning backstage. And we're going to talk about not only some more practical helps, but we're going to talk about how the Lord redeems our sorrow and what the enemy intended for harm, God will redeem it for good. Thank you for joining us on Hope in the Morning.
So, I love that you brought in that example in your book and. The story of Joseph is one of those that most of us know. If you've grown up in the church, you definitely know it. You know, here he was this favored son, and because he had the favor of the father. These brothers became jealous of him and murderous, actually.
And they were going to take him out and kill him. And instead, they decided. What ultimate good does that do us? Let's sell him. Then we can actually make some money off him and he'll still die.
He's going to be who knows where and mistreated. That's what they were banking on. They were banking on that they were basically going to get a two-for-one, they were going to get money. and their brother would still be dead. And they covered it up with their dad.
You know, they said a wild animal got him, and he hasn't survived. The Lord meant that for good and he used it for good. Can you walk us through the rest of that story and then kind of tell us how you feel it parallels with yours? Yeah, absolutely.
So, this too is one of my favorite stories. And I think a lot of us can relate to it if we really. Think about it. The circumstances may be different. But I think the principles within it are very similar.
You know, after Joseph was sold into slavery, he gained favor in the eyes of the officials, and he ends up being put in charge of Potiphar's household.
So he gets this, you know. Leadership role, you know, after being sold by his brothers into slavery. And then you think, okay, well, things are going pretty well for Joseph. And then he gets accused. Falsely by Potiphar's wife of having an affair with her.
And so then Potiphar, you know, obviously gets incredibly upset by that and throws Joseph into prison.
So now he's back in the depths of despair again. He's been lied about, right? And now he's in prison. While he's in prison, he gains favor in the eyes of the prison warden at the time. And then from there, he's able to interpret a dream for Pharaoh, the king at the time.
And that, it's this whole story, you know.
So then he's put in charge of the whole land of Egypt. And so you just see this story that's being written in the life of Joseph. And there's moments of the mountaintop, and there's moments of being in the valley, and there's, Can you imagine one being sold into slavery? Then all of a sudden the Lord Brings you into this role, you know, of being in charge of someone's household and then being lied about and being put in prison and. You're like, what is happening?
You know, and I can only imagine the questions that Joseph had in those moments of, God, who are you? God, where are you? Why are you allowing these things to happen in my life? And And I thought those are the same questions that we ask today. You know, we're asking when times are hard or we're going through just devastating seasons.
We're asking these questions, God, where are you? How could you possibly be at work? in this situation and You know, fast forward in Joseph's story and Once he's in charge of the land of Egypt. He's the Lord lets him know there's going to be a famine that comes. He ends up being reunited with his brothers.
His brothers don't even recognize him at the time, you know. It's just cool to see how God writes stories, you know, because he has this opportunity then to be reunited with his brothers, and they find themselves in a place of really repentance. and asking just for forgiveness from Joseph and And that's where Joseph says, and you know, what you Intended for harm, and but the enemy was intended for harm. God used it for good. And that's where we get that.
Concept from in scripture, Genesis 50:20. Because a lot of times we can't see how God could possibly be at work when we're in the valley, we're in the depths of despair, but when we look back. We can see God's hand. At work, and how he does take something that's so tragic. And he uses it for good.
You mentioned a camp that I went to with some teenage girls earlier in this episode. I'll never forget that because I feel like that was a moment in my life. Where the Lord gave me just a glimmer of hope in the midst of such. Uncertainty, honestly, and pain in my own life.
Now, you know, I was serving with middle school and high school girls at this. um retreat weekend And there was just one girl in particular that was just very quiet. You know, I didn't assume anything, I just knew she was a quiet. She was engaged, but not. You know, I could tell there were some things going on in her mind, but she didn't share all weekend.
It was the last day of this camp. And I saw her just sort of sitting in the back of the room, and she had her head down, and she was just weeping. And I remember going over to talk to her, and I just said, Hey, is everything okay? And she said, I just need to handle this alone. And I was like, Well, hey, I just want you to know you're not alone.
We're here for you. We're with you. Anything we can do. And she began to open up. And she said, Catherine, you know, I know what your family has recently walked through.
And you're here this weekend, and you're, I've seen you just serve. And I see how the Lord's at work in the midst of those situations. And she said, I just. I'm scared that one day my sister will be in your shoes. What do you mean by that?
And she kind of lifted up her sleeve and she'd struggled with cutting. She told me she had attempted to take her life before. Um it was in those moments where I just sat with her. I shared the gospel with her. I talked about what the Lord was doing in my life and was able really to speak from the standpoint of someone who lost a family member, you know, and just how devastating it is.
And I just was able to share God's love. For her, and she gave her life to Christ that morning, and he did an unbelievable work. In her life. And that was the moment where the Lord started to bring me to a place where I could say, okay, if people come to know Jesus. as a result of what our family has walked through.
It's worth it. And I think I can say that because I know where my brother is. Like, I know he is in heaven. He's in the presence of Jesus right now, living his best life. And one day we're going to get to see him again.
And I cannot wait for that. But in the meantime, I also know there's a lot of people who don't know Jesus. And I know there are people who are struggling and hurting and walking through situations like this, and the hope of the gospel. Is what needs to be heard, and so that was the moment in my life where I started to see a little shift and a little glimmer of hope: okay, God is at work. even in situations like this.
Yeah, you know, Catherine, as you say that. It makes me think about the parents right now that might be listening to this episode. And I would encourage you: if you have teenage kids, bring them in on this episode and talk about this. Don't make this a taboo topic in your home. Make this something that you can have an open conversation about because.
That's a hard season of life when you're a teenager. You're trying to figure out who you are and how you fit in and what your identity is, and whether or not they are a believer. Or not a believer, they may not fully understand their need for a savior. Or they may not fully understand their identity in Christ if they are a believer and how that is outside of everything, all these external pressures. I have two kids, one that's a teenage, I have four kids, but I have two that are in that phase of life.
And These are conversations we've had. With them because you don't know what is being spoken in their head. And if we can have these conversations and make our kids feel like: if I'm struggling with that, I can go to mom and dad. And I can talk openly and they're not gonna, they're not going to be shocked. They're not going to dismiss me or play it off as not no big deal.
We need to take these things seriously, but we need to really open this conversation with our kids. Catherine, I know that you have children. Has this been something that has shaped the way that you have parented your children? Yeah, that's a good question.
So, my kids right now are younger. 10. Eight and almost two.
Okay. And so one of the things that I pray for regularly is that we're just able to have open conversations. About everything, you know, no matter what the topic is, no matter what's happening. And so we're praying that that is something that's just a part of our family. A lot of times at night when we put our two older kids to bed, that's a time where my husband and I both have an opportunity to connect with our kids and we'll ask them, you know, specific questions about their day.
We ask questions about things that, you know, during the school year, like, what are you hearing at school? Is there anything that people are talking about at school that maybe we haven't discussed as a family or that you're not sure about? And we do that because we want to lay the foundation. of talking about things that maybe they're not comfortable bringing up on their own. Yeah.
Or maybe they don't really know how to process it in their minds. I have one child who's more open to talking about everything. And then I have one who kind of just. You never know what's on their mind. And so we're hoping by these conversations, even while they're young.
will lay the foundation so that when they're, as they're getting older, We're having the same conversations, but on different topics. And I pray that this isn't something that they struggle with, but we don't know. You know, like I said earlier, we're not exempt from this, you know. And so the way that we parent is one in a way that one, we do our best to point our kids to Jesus. And it's a regular conversation in our home and in our household.
My husband's a pastor. And so we involve them in everything that we do in the life of our church, but also ministry and relationships. Um but also open conversations and So I would say that's one way that it affects our parenting, just trying to be open and transparent. About everything. Catherine, if this is something that even doesn't affect The listener's teen, like, or your teen or my teen directly.
How can we help equip our children for the conversations that they may have with their peers? You know, there may be, maybe they get that call from a Barrett. And how can we help our kids understand? What to do in those circumstances if they're receiving that? Yeah.
You know, we have to one make sure our kids feel comfortable talking to us. I think that's. One thing is just keeping the doors open to conversation. I think also just asking them straightforward: hey, what are you talking about? Or hearing.
from your friends and help them process. Even things their friends may be going through. You know, some of our kids' friends. are in Christian homes.
Some are not. But honestly, a lot of times that That doesn't mean that they are not experiencing. Certain things, or hearing about certain things, or engaging in certain things. And so, how do we prepare our kids? One, to be encouragers, but two, to know: hey, how can we get someone to help?
I think we have to let our kids know, like, it's okay to get help. If you're struggling, like let's get you some help. If their friends are struggling, encouraging them, hey, we need to get.
Some help, you know, a lot of times teenagers, we work with teenagers often, but they try to just like do things on their own, you know. Maybe they're ashamed or embarrassed to reach out for help, but it's honestly the best thing that we can do. And so I think encouraging our kids and letting them know that. It's helpful. Yeah.
Sometimes teenagers remind me a little bit of like when our toddlers, you know, go through that face like, let me do it. I can do it. I can put on my own shoes. And you look and you're like, That's not how you do it, but I'm going to not step in. But I think our teenagers are so, they're in that phase of life where they're testing on those adult shoes.
You know, they kind of want to learn how to handle some of their own things themselves. But I love what you said of equipping our kids to understand that it's okay to ask for help and teaching our kids too that that's not a weakness, it's actually a very mature. strong thing to do to say it takes humility. And that's something that all of us, all of us can increase in is to be humble. And that's to be Christ-like, is to be truly humble.
True. We talked briefly about what are some of the things that people should not say within the church. What are some practical ways that people can actively serve people that have lost a loved one to suicide? Yeah, so earlier we talked about showing up, we talked about the ministry of presence. That's huge.
acknowledging unanswered questions. Also, I think affirming the stages of grief. is so important as we walk with people. Along this journey, you know, grief is interesting. Everyone processes grief and experiences grief differently.
There's no manual that makes it more bearable for any of us. You know, I think we're going to experience grief differently. I think there are times where it's confusing and unpredictable. I think it has a way of producing this roller coaster of emotions in our own hearts and in our lives. And I think just affirming: hey, you're not going crazy when you are going through this roller coaster.
Of emotions because that is the cycle. Of grief. And I think one of the most encouraging things is to know that although our emotions waver in the cycle of grief. God does not. And I think always going back to Hebrews chapter 13, verse 8, which says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
And so, when we are struggling and going through those cycles of grief and these different emotions, We know we can run to him, and he's the same. He's constant and he's steady.
So I think affirming those stages of grief and then pointing to Jesus, the one who never changes. is is helpful. We also talked about just pointing people to Jesus in the midst of their hurt. Um You know, I'm so thankful for the people who prayed for me and my family. I think a lot of times we don't recognize the power of prayer.
Yeah. But to know that we have people praying for us. Is huge. The other thing I think of is just pointing to Jesus. In a way that shows like, hey, we have Jesus.
And we have this community of people that he's put around us. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is the story of the paralytic. If you remember, his friends carried him on his mat to the to Jesus. And when they get to this house where Jesus is, there's so many people crowded around that they can't get to him. And so they literally climb on top of the house onto the roof and they cut a hole in the roof and they lower him down before Jesus.
And I love this imagery here because we need friends. We need people in our life that can carry us to Jesus. I think there are times where we get to be the ones who are carrying someone to Jesus. And then there are other times where we're the ones that's being carried, but we need those friends. That comes alongside and point us to Jesus and carry us to him.
But then, as the church, as we're walking alongside someone, to be the one to point them to Jesus.
Now, I will say there were times where people shared scripture with me, and I did not want to hear it. And there are gonna be times where maybe some listeners you share scripture with someone who's grieving. and they may not want to hear it. And that's okay. Um God has a way.
of just doing a work through his word. In a way that only he can do. I'll never forget a lady in my life who literally gave me a stack of pink post-it notes after losing my brother. She had endured loss by suicide as well. And so she knew what we were walking through.
But on every post-it note, She hand-wrote a verse of scripture and she just gave it to me. And she said, When you can't sleep at night, look at one of these. When you're driving and you're just having a hard time, read one of these. When you're struggling through the day, read one of these. And what she was doing was she was pointing me to Jesus.
She was providing a way for my mind and my heart to be set back on the truths of scripture when I was struggling. And she knew it may not be in that moment that she handed them to me that I wanted to hear it, but she knew that God would speak through his word. And when the time came, I would have his word right in front of me, specific scriptures. And so I would say, while people may not want to hear it in the midst of the darkness. The best thing we can do is point them to Jesus and trust him with the timing and work.
Well, I think the delivery of the scripture makes all the difference when you're hurting. Because the fact that she gave you those post-it notes, that she had been where you are before, and that they were handwritten, shows time and effort and thought. And I think where we get into kind of. Muddied waters a little bit with sharing scripture that can end up being hurtful in those moments. Is when we do it kind of flippantly.
Like you're just sending a text message in place of service. But when it's combined with service, if you bring a meal, To that family, and you say, listen, this is a scripture that has been really near to my heart during seasons of suffering, and I hope it comforts you. And I just wrote it down on the three by five card for you, and I'm praying for you. Yes. That can be a balm to a hurting heart.
But when you just text message Jeremiah 29, 11 to someone, and that's it, and you leave it there, it feels like, Okay, well I know that He that he has plans for a hope in the future for me, but Are you not understanding the severe sorrow? that my heart is going through. We have to be willing to sit with each other in those ashes and share hope, the hope of Christ in those trenches. And that's what that woman did for you. You also, you mentioned, it reminds me of that friend that you talk about in your book, that she was steady to just call you.
Faithfully, and how it's dawned on me more and more how the Lord. In his graciousness, through the moving of his spirit, we have the same Holy Spirit that indwells within us.
So, Catherine, the same spirit within you is the same spirit within me, and the same spirit within our believing listeners. And sometimes, especially for praying for people that are hurting, the spirit will move. And put someone on our mind and heart. That you can be. The Lord's way of comforting somebody else.
So, don't ignore that. If you feel a stirring, call. And it's so incredible to me when you talk in your book about how your friend. had some of these just very timely calls. She didn't know.
But the Lord did, and the Lord stirred her spirit to call you in those perfect times. How, as we conclude, how has your loss of Barrett and walking through Suicide, how has that changed the way that you minister to other people, both in your ministry as a woman's leader and as a pastor's wife? Yeah, I think it's helped really the Lord's used it just to shape my own heart and really my thoughts and helped me to be more compassionate and really empathetic, you know. I think he's also used it just to give me like a level of awareness of. We just don't have all of the answers on this side of eternity.
You know, and to be okay with that, but also to be able to encourage others in, like, hey, I know this is really hard and I know it's painful. And to be able, like you said, just to sit in that with people. Um And honestly, be in the midst of the wrestle. Because a lot of times I think we. I think we can go hard on ourselves, of like, okay, I know I'm a follower of Jesus.
I shouldn't be struggling with this. Or, I should just trust him with this, you know. There are going to be moments where we do struggle with trust and we struggle with depending on him. Um I think When you experience something, it helps you be able to relate to others in a different way. You know, and I'm Listen, I wish this weren't such a um huge crisis.
among people like i wish suicide was not a thing At all. And one day it's not going to be. Jesus is going to come back, he's going to make all things right, and we're never going to have to worry about things like this again. But in the meantime, I'm grateful that the Lord has helped me to see his faithfulness. And his steadiness in the midst of it, so that when other people are struggling to see faithfulness and steadiness.
I can share how he's been faithful and steady in my life. I can point to the truth of scripture. in a way that maybe I couldn't have before. But also, it's helped me in this. If you go back to the Old Testament, you see where Jesus brought the Israelites through the Jordan.
He turned off the waters, you know, and brought them through. And then, once they had all passed through, he had them set 12 stones of remembrance out. And he's taught me so much just about having these stones of remembrance in my life.
So when things are, when I might go through something today. I can go back and look at how he was faithful in the past. and how he's held true to his promises in the past and he's going to do the same thing today and he's going to do the same thing in the future. I think when walking with people in the life of our church and in the life of just life in general. I think it's been so encouraging to be able to say, like, hey, go back to a time in your life where Jesus proved himself to be faithful.
And you think about those moments as those stones of remembrance. And then say, okay, just as he was faithful then. He will be faithful now. And I've also just learned, hey, journal through this. Write down your prayer request.
Write down the questions that you have. And then go back later and write down how he responded or how you saw the Lord at work. Because those are just more stones, you know, to lay in our lives. And so I think those are specific ways the Lord's helped me in just in ministering to other people. Catherine, these testimonies on hope in the morning, like yours, these are stones of remembrance because people that are facing unimaginable sorrow, they're walking.
You know, you talk about going to check on your kids at night and shining that flashlight to be a lamp onto your feet so you don't stumble on things along the way that you may not be expecting. Right. These episodes are those stones of remembrance where people in the throes of life's hardest circumstances can come back and they can look at your testimony and other testimonies and say, okay. The Lord was faithful. The Lord is continuously faithful.
I serve the same God. And so I need not be afraid. And it. It sheds such a light. And I'm going to conclude this episode with something that you said that I thought was so beautiful in your book.
And it says this. It says light shining into darkness looks like hope. in the midst of hurt. Peace in the presence of pain.
So, if that's you today, if you are struggling with pain, if you have a heart that is heavy with hurt. I hope that hearing this testimony will be a remembrance to you that you have hope in the midst of that and that you can have a peace that passes all understanding. Catherine, thank you for joining us today on Hope in the Morning. Thank you. Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting.
Equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ. to partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved one's honor. Please visit hopeinthemorning.org. Your donation helps keep these stories of hope on the air. and helps tangibly meet the needs of the herding.
