Chasing Down Wisdom

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Now let's get into the show. Wisdom is like that goal that always seems just a little bit out of reach. And you always come back to that question, how do I know it when I see it? Chasing Down Wisdom coming up right now on the Preview Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.

Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We've got a great conversation with our host, Dr.

Abadan Shah. If you're listening for the very first time today, we want to let you know exactly who's talking to you. Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.

Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Good to have a great conversation today, talking about wisdom through the book of James. Yes, we talked last week now on our last episode about what wisdom is and how to attain it, and really about how, as a leader or as a pastor, it's your responsibility to impart and cultivate wisdom in your team. That's right.

But today, we're chasing down the idea of how do you know when you've got it? How do you know when wisdom is in the process of developing?

Well, wisdom is one of those tricky things to talk about, right? Like we talked about it in the book of Job, how rare it is, right? How elusive it is, how valuable it is. And then a lot of times when you hear people talk about wisdom, you just hear about the things that it isn't, right? It's not knowledge, it's not experience, it's not this, it's not that.

And so it sort of begs the question: what is it? And then you end up with this sort of tangible, sort of intangible definition. And we thought maybe it would be better, Dr. Shah, to say, how do you know when you see it? What are the indicators?

Well, thank goodness, James tells us.

So James tells us a little bit about what wisdom is, especially the wisdom from above versus the wisdom from below. And when you look at those six indicators, very simple: examine your lives and see if these things are there, or if you don't see them, does not mean you have to despair.

Now, find ways to cultivate those things in your life by God's grace.

So Let's go down the list and see what it takes to be A wise person. Let's do it. How do we know? How do I look at our lives? How can we tell when wisdom is there?

So James says in verse 14. He talks about How wisdom is this, then, the other, and it's not good, and if there's envy and self-seeking and all that stuff. But the wisdom that is from above It's first. Pure.

So first things first wise people Maintain their integrity. Their purity, their integrity. That's right. Yeah. Pure.

What do you mean by pure? There's a sense of innocence behind it. Mm-hmm. Wise people are not Cunning people. No one really likes a cunning person.

Yeah. Somebody who is, you can just see the sense of. Deviousness that is there. Even if they're doing something right, like finding a great deal, that's great. Nothing wrong with finding savings, saving a buck here or a buck there, or finding a good coupon.

Nothing wrong with that. But there's just something about them. It's almost like they're playing the system or playing. The person on the other side of the desk. You know, it's just.

There's something impure about it. Yeah. You can usually see people like that sort of spin things in motion or move some pieces and then sit back and. Kind of watch. Yeah, because the goal, I think, of a cunning person is not the immediate result of what I'm trying to get done.

It's always the I had the power to do this. It's this quest for, or this desire for, I can manipulate, I can control this little and I think on some level, on some level, the thrill of the manipulation. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. The enjoyment of pushing people around.

Right. And that's where deceiving. There's a deceiving spirit, a lying spirit, cheating, swindling, being unfaithful and getting away with it, back biting, backstabbing, stabbing, and anything that is impure and underhanded. When you have something like that, then you're not a wise person. You may be very cool and calculated kind of person, but you're not a wise person because.

In the end, People don't like you because of what you just did.

So any time we do something that compromises the truth. It becomes impure, yeah. I think that's that's that's almost the foundation of it right there: is that you have the truth, right? But you're compromising it, you're twisting it. And I think that's what a lot of cunning people will do: they'll say, Well, I didn't lie, you know, I told the truth, but you've twisted the truth, right?

Comprise the truth. And if you truly have truth as Christians, if you truly have truth on your side, you don't need to twist it. You know, we're talking about integrity. It's easy to have integrity, or it's easy to look like a person of integrity when there's lots of people around, when you are on display and you have a lot of eyes on you. But real true integrity happens when people's eyes aren't on you.

It's when you're by yourself or when you, when you are in different groups of people. Talk a little bit about that, Dr. Shaw. How do we cultivate that sense of integrity?

Well, if you are going to maintain a sense of purity, because that's what it says here: a wisdom that is from above is pure, then it doesn't matter if there are people there or not, you will be pure.

Okay, it's like water that is pure, it doesn't matter if it's in one room or The other. If it's come from a tap that is pure, then it will be pure no matter if it's in the living room versus in the in the bedroom. It's going to look the same. But if purity is not there, then there's a compromise.

So you can pretend that that glass is pure water in the living room, but it's impure in the bedroom. But sooner or later, people will find out. And then your reputation is going to crash. Then all your accomplishments will fall apart because now everybody knows you're impure. Yeah.

I think one of the things that you taught me, you did a sermon years back, maybe, maybe like three or four years ago, maybe longer, but it was just called integrity. It was just about being a person of integrity. And I remember something you said in that sermon that always stuck with me was like, if you lose, you could lose everything that you have in life. If you have money, if you lose your money, you can get your money back, no problem. If you lose like your friends or you lose your house or these material things, you can always.

Get them back, but once you lose your reputation, once you lose your integrity, even if you gain it back, quote unquote, there will always be that memory. Yeah, but if you lose your character, yes, nothing is worth it. Yeah, so money. You can get it back. Friends, that's going to be costly.

But integrity, your character is gone. It doesn't matter what you have now. That's right. That's right. So don't compromise.

Something else, you know, Jesus said in Matthew chapter 5, verse 8: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

So if you're truly a wise person, because this wisdom that is from above is pure. Then you have a vision of God. You can see God working. In the world, in your life, in your circumstances. And that's.

The greatest thing that a wise person can have is to see God's hand. That's right. That's why I I don't think people like Aristotle or Socrates or Plato or famous wise people in the world that they're truly wise. I think they have. Certain wisdom principles down, but I don't think they're truly wise because many of them are not seeing the living true God.

How can they be wise? One thing that's, I think, one thing that stuck with all of us during the Job series you did, and the Job series we did here, is that at the end of all of Job's suffering, the reward wasn't you get all your stuff back tenfold. The reward is you get to see God. I know in my flesh, I shall see God. And I think that has really something that I've been thinking about a lot personally in my life, but also in our church life, that number one, that's our whole motto is making Christ visible.

We've seen God and we want to have other people see God. But then also just the reward of everything that we do. This show, your sermons, our albums, whatever it is, the reward is I got to see God. I think that's also a reminder, too, in the discussion. Like you were talking about Aristotle, Plato.

There's a worldly wisdom. And there's something that can, you know, you can live by platitudes or general wisdom principles, but being able to navigate situations as they arise and being able to. To skillfully understand what's happening and who's where and how to operate in certain situations. I mean, that type of wisdom only comes from God. That type of wisdom is the person of Jesus.

The other thing that James says here is. Other than pure, he says it's peaceable. Wise people Prevent unnecessary conflicts. If you're the type of person who likes to pick a fight, You're not a wise person. It's okay to go into a fight.

There are battles, there are wars, there are boxing matches. I mean, these are arranged. I mean, this is what we have to do to make wrong right. Or there's a competition. We're not talking about that.

But if you're a person who just likes to pick a fight, Then you are. Not a wise person. Yeah. Peaceable. Here, peaceable does not mean a person who just compromises or constantly gives in.

This is not peace under any price kind of person. No, peaceable people. Are those who get no pleasure out of starting unnecessary conflicts? It's not worth it. It's a waste of time, it's a drain of energy, it doesn't produce anything.

It doesn't lead you towards your vision. It's only going to drain you, exhaust you. And then get you off course. Yeah. How can you be a wise person?

Yeah, I think that's a great qualifier: wise people know which conflicts are necessary. That was something that I struggled with in my life and still do: all conflicts are unnecessary.

So avoid them at all costs.

Well, that's not wise. You're allowing people, you're allowing the wrong people in your life and in your ministry to run things for you. But I think, you know, learning under you, Dr. Shah, and watching how you've dealt with things and watching how, just as a church that we've grown, is that you discern which conflicts are necessary. Yeah.

Sometimes, you know, you have people who want those conflicts and people who are, they just want to cause strife. They just want to cause chaos. That's not a wise person. In the wise words of the timeless philosopher Alfred Prentiworth, played by Michael Caine in Christopher Nolan's Christopher Nolan? Yeah.

Yeah, Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight.

Well, depends on the what you, oh, Dark Knight? Definitely Nolan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Some people just want to watch the world.

Some people aren't looking for something tangible like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with.

Some in Just want to watch the world burn. I've practiced it every day. Very good Michael Caine. But there are some people who genuinely just want chaos for chaos. That's right.

And that's not a wise person, and they don't cultivate an atmosphere of wisdom around them. As a leader, Dr. Shah, how do you know which conflicts are necessary? I would say definitely ones where we're talking about values, we're talking about Christian principles. The innocent, those, you know, and again, this kind of goes along with being angry.

You know, what do you get angry about? I hope there are things worth getting angry about not trivial, frivolous things. If you get angry all the time over everything, either you're stressed out, which we all get sometimes, or you just don't know for sure what's worth standing for, what's worth dying for.

So peaceable means most of the time we should be living Such conflict-free lives. That The world should know that, man, here's a person who's truly honorable. Yeah. In Proverbs 20, verse 3, it says, It is honorable for a man to stop striving, since any fool can start a quarrel. That's a great point.

You're honorable, you're wise. Why? Because you don't want to fight. Jesus said in Matthew 5:9, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. You can be sons of the devil or sons of God.

The devil is always trying to start fights. God is the God of peace. Mm-hmm. Let's take a quick break. It's John here from Clearview Today.

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So thank you for that. Thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring this episode. Let's jump in. Fight unnecessarily. Right.

And you know, I think that's that's something that you've kind of instilled in your team: is that when it comes time to fight, when the fight is at your door, you know that you have to stand firm, but at the same time, you never are the you're never the cause of it. You're never the one that goes looking for conflict, or you're never the one that starts instigating or buzzing around or posting online. You know what I mean? Everything is everything that we've ever stood firm on, like you said, is value-related. And in time, people pick up on that.

They go, you know, in this situation, he could have fired back with this, or she could have said that, but they didn't. Why didn't they?

Well, because it's not worth it. There is no sense in firing volleys at the other person f for what?

So you can have the final word, the last word? No, it maybe, but it's not worth it. A wise person knows when to walk away from unnecessary conflicts. That's right. So integrity, And a peaceful spirit But here's number three.

Wise people have a gentle spirit. I mean, listen again to James, but the wisdom that is from above is first pure. Then peaceable. Gentle. Yeah.

Gentle. That's where we get the idea of a gentleman. Why gentlemen? Because not that they were gentle, like tiptoeing around, but it's just that spirit of. Humility, the spirit of service.

the spirit of kindness, compassion, Patience That's all tied in with gentleness. Yeah. There's a gentleman in our church. If I said his name, everybody in here would know exactly who I'm talking about. But every time I talk to him, I feel good.

You know what I mean? He's got a gentle spirit in a sense that not like he's a weak guy. He's actually probably was a very, very strong guy back in his day. But just his demeanor, every time I talk to him, I just feel loved. Yeah.

You know what I mean? I love one thing that you said, Dr. Shaz: the very first time you met Nicole's dad, you knew that he loved you. And I thought that was a really interesting way to put it for a. A stranger that you've just met.

But now as I've gotten older, I'd know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just like the gentleman, I think I know who you're talking about. He's like that, always encouraging. Thank you so much.

You know, he'll always say that. And he knows that we need to hear that. But we also know that he is doing it very sincerely, and he is doing it. from his heart. It is not just A A show.

Yeah, right. It's coming from the heart. He's one of those people that, after you leave a conversation with them, you feel like. You can breathe easy. Yeah.

You're in a safe, in a safe zone. Exactly. Exactly. And that's, I mean, that's a good way to describe a gentle spirit. It kind of puts you at ease and helps you feel like you are loved and cared for and, you know, everything's going to be okay.

That's going to work out. Yeah. And that's the type of person that I want to be. Cause again, when I talk to this gentleman, I never really focus on what he's saying. It's just, it's just a matter of how I feel when I walk away.

You know, like, like they never, he never says like, I mean, sometimes, but he's never like. That was really, really powerful and wise and that hit me. It's just, no, I feel, I feel good. I feel uplifted. I feel like I can conquer the world.

There have been times, Dr. Shaw, where you and I, like the whole team is sitting around at lunch and you would say things that I think most pastors would just never, ever say. Hey, guys, this church is going to change the world. It's time to get on board because we're going to touch the world. And I would leave lunch being like, man, you know what?

I feel like we're going to change the entire life. Are we not? Oh, yeah, we are. Here we are. Here we are.

Here we are in several different avenues and several different ways. And I remember leaving those lines. Lunch meetings being like, I want to feel like this every day. But you know, the flip side of that is also true. There have been times that I come into your office and I feel like I'm just tied up in knots and just like struggling with things, either on a personal level or things, you know, how do I navigate this?

And this person is doing this. And I've got 17 things that I need, and I need to prioritize what comes first. And I leave a conversation with you, and I feel like, Okay, it's all going to be all right. And there is that sense of like, we're going to conquer the world, but also, like, I'm going to be okay. This is going to be okay.

It's all going to work out. And it was not that way before. Our conversation.

Well, it's a learned trait. I got it from talking to people who do the same thing for me or have done the same thing for me, where I felt like, oh, this is a tough situation. I'm looking into my repertoire of Uh you know Oh. ideas and and previous experiences that I can draw from to fix this problem, and there's nothing there. That file cabinet is empty, not just the folder, the file cabinet is empty.

I can't seem to find anything. And so I call certain people for for certain situational needs. And Each one of them has done such an amazing job. God has put the exact people I needed in those places in my life. And so, once I explain to them what is happening, they have a way of very calmly, so.

This is what needs to happen. And before I leave, I'm like, that's amazing. And then I. It's not even like I'm like second guessing or Org. Suspicious about their motives and the advice they gave me, none of that.

It's just like I'm like, all of a sudden, there's a wind in the sail, I'm moving forward. I feel good. And as I Keep sailing. I can see the sun come up, the waves are calm, and the wind is just behind me, and I'm moving forward. I feel great.

I feel great. And and guess what? In a matter of few hours I find myself seeing land.

So I want to do the same thing for people in my staff is be that kind of person so that one day, or even now, you could bend you can be doing that for somebody else who may come to you and go, this is bad. I don't even know where to begin. And you can sort of take it in and say, okay, so this needs to be handled this way. This is what's happening. And now, do you see what's going on?

What do you think we should do? Oh, yeah, that's kind of obvious. I should be doing that. Yeah, that's a great point.

So that's a whole thing of being gentle. There are people out there who are hateful, condescending, short, harsh, and that's not going to help you. They take the wind out of your sail. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to if you feel like, well, I don't even want to do this anymore.

Yeah. And I think there's something to be said about that, about making people feel good. And I think a lot of times in our culture, we have taken that too far. But it's not that it's an inherently bad thing to make people feel good. You know, you never want to compromise the truth for the sake of making people feel good.

But I definitely remember the people in my life who have made me feel good, who've made me feel. accomplish like we can do this. Yeah, you want that sense of being able to be the you talked about people who have a harsh tone taking the wind out of people's sails. You want to be able to put the wind back in people's sales. We read a book on that as a team one time.

I think it was called What's Filling Your Bucket or something. Yeah, like, and it was a thing where you imagine you've got, as you're going through life, you've got a bucket full of water, and there are some people in your life who are going to poke holes in your bucket. There's some people who are going to fill your bucket.

So, also, with you, are you going to fill people's buckets? And that was a great book. I can't remember the name. We may have to read it again. Yeah, that was a good one.

How full is your bucket? Yeah. How full is your bucket? I wish I could remember the name of the author. I'm sorry if you're the author and you're listening to this.

I don't mean to show you disrespect. Hey, but we did talk about your book. We did. Write in, and we can maybe talk about it. How full is your bucket?

Go on Amazon, you'll find it, and you'll know exactly who you are. That's right. That's right. You'll know who you are. You'll recognize your name.

He Googles his own book. Oh, there I am. Oh, there I am. There I am. But here's the fourth one.

The wisdom that is from above is for us pure, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield. Willing to yield. What do you mean by willing to yield? It means wise people are teachable, willing to yield. You say it's not just like a yield sign, and you go first.

No, you go first. I mean, yeah, that is true. But there's a deeper principle behind what James is saying. When you say you go first, which means. you're willing to learn You're willing to say I have the right way.

I think but let's see you go first. And do your way, and I'm willing to wait.

So it's not just like letting people go ahead of you. Yeah, that that that is wise, but How can it be wise? But if you go to the underlying lesson, It's more of a teachable spirit. That's right. Having a teachable spirit.

And That Is a sign of a wise person. I was having a conversation with another guy who's on our staff maybe just an hour or so ago. We were out away off campus. We were testing something for a big project that's coming up. But we were talking about this.

And he was mentioning to me, I love being at Clearview because I'm learning every day. I'm learning something new. And of course, in the immediate context, we're talking about running cables and patching audio and this and that. But I think there's just a spirit of always learning because Clearview is always growing. It's always improving.

And so kind of by necessity, you're learning. But I think all of us have fallen in love with this idea that every day I'm a little bit smarter. I'm a little bit better than I was yesterday. And we are amassing knowledge, but we're also willing to be corrected. We're willing to be taught because I think all of us, and you've set the culture very well here, Dr.

Shaw, all of us operate with the sense of like, I don't know everything about everything. I have. Gaps in my knowledge. I have gaps in my expertise in areas that I am willing and ready to grow. Please, if I'm ever out of line or if I can ever do something better, it may not be that I'm doing something wrong.

It's just that I can improve in a certain area. Please tell me. Please, please help me course correct and help me grow. And I want to be, I want to have that teachable spirit. If I ever get to a point where I'm like, no, I know everything, hang it up.

I mean, I'm done at that point. One thing that you said, I think early on in the hiring process, and maybe this is something you can kind of share with the listeners who are pastors who are in a hiring capacity is that you said, you know, if you're on staff, I've already assessed your character. You know, I'm not going to hire someone I suspect is a cunning person or doesn't have their integrity or is going to get us involved in some scandal or whatever. The only thing you have to do is be teachable. The only thing you have to do is be willing to be correct.

And I think maybe there's something to that, especially for people who may be in the hiring process and have said, Well, I've hired the wrong people in the past. I don't know what to be looking for. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I 100% agree.

I. I look for that spirit in people. If you're teachable, Man, there are a lot of things we can correct and work on and keep moving forward. If you're not teachable, or if you're pretending to learn, but in reality, you're bucking everything inside, like the little kid, you know, who was his dad told him to sit down and he was. not going to listen.

And finally he sat down. And dad's like, well, I'm glad you're sitting down finally. He said, well, I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside.

Sounds like my second born. There's so many people who operate that way, though. Like, I'm going to go along with this to your face, but just know on the inside, I'm against everything you do.

Okay, you're fine. You're not a wise person. And the only person you're really fooling, if I can use the wise fool analogy here or terminology here, is you're fooling yourself.

So Wise people are teachable. A story comes to my mind that Rick Warren gave years and years ago. He said he was at a conference, not a conference, like a like a get together of all the big pastors. This is in the nineties. maybe even in the eighties, when Rick Warren's church saddleback was just beginning to grow and his fame was spreading and all that.

So they invited him to come join this group of so called elite pastors.

Okay, what I mean by that is, I'm not trying to talk down about them, but these are pastors whose churches are. in the thousands. And so they come together and just kind of encourage one another and say. Hey, keep doing what you're doing. What are you doing that we can learn from you?

Blah, blah, blah. And so they had Rick Warren come. to their Meeting because he is Seems like something is working in in California. And they gave Rick Warren. The Stage or the platform to say a few words about what's going on at Saddleback.

And he says, I got up to speak. But very quickly I noticed that sitting In that room, around that big conference table, was W. A. Criswal. Uh Now Rick Warren's church at the time was like maybe five, six thousand people.

WA CRISPL was the pastor of First Baptist Dallas. In its heyday, get ready for this. They had 35,000 people. My gosh. Wow.

I can't imagine. I can't imagine that big. Thirty-five thousand people. He said, I began to speak, and it was very intimidating. Of course, imagine all these big people sitting around the table.

Of course, he's got a big church himself, but 35,000. That's a big number. He said, Here's what W.A. Crystal did. As I began to speak, he pulls out this little notepad and a pen and starts taking notes.

Oh, Brick Warmer. It's that humbled him because even at that stage of success in life, W. Criswell was not above learning from someone like Rick Warren.

So, wise people are teachable. Here's one more. I don't know how much time we have left, but. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits.

Okay, so I want to stop there. Because we're gonna have to take some time to unpack that. But here's the point. Wise people are full of mercy and good fruits. Wise people are not bitter.

That's right. Mercy and good fruits. are the antonyms Too bitter. Or bitterness. Yeah.

Yeah. And there's someone listening to this right now and saying, no, no, no, bitterness is like the one thing I struggle with. Don't stop now. Hey, guess what? We're out of time.

I'm so sorry. I wish we could. But good news is we're going to pick up this conversation tomorrow's episode. Make sure you join us there. We'll be here same time, same station.

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