You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis and welcome again to the Clearview Today Studio. We got a great conversation yesterday.
We got a great one on the books for you guys today. But before we do anything else, we want to welcome our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio.
It's good to be here. Thank you. It's good to see you. And before we get started, we do want to just remind you guys about Dr. Shah's upcoming book, 30 Days of Seeing Christ in Judges.
We're releasing that book a little bit later in the fall. But it's another 30 days devotional. It's actually the fourth in our series, our 30-day series. That's correct. Through the book of Judges.
It's kind of doing a new thing this time where you're walking through an Old Testament book. And this will be unique because every one of the books that we will do in the Old Testament, still under the same series of 30 days, but this will be Old Testament, will look for Christ in the Old Testament.
So it's not just 30 days of praying through Exodus or 30 days of praying through Judges or 30 days of praying through Malachi. It will be more of 30 days of seeing Christ in Exodus or Christ in Judges or Christ in Malachi. And this one is in Judges, by the way, the one that's coming out. And very shortly, it's going to be 30 days of seeing Christ in judges. Very simple.
That's right.
So important for us, especially when we think about the Old Testament, that it's not something that's totally separate, but we can see Christ in the pages of the Old Testament, even through the stories of the Judges. That was a powerful series that we did here at Cleavery that you preached, Dr. Shaw. And it was impactful for many people.
So I'm excited for this book to have the same. That's right.
Be on the lookout for that book coming out this fall. Dr. Shaw, how you been? I've been doing well. It's been, um Very, very busy.
And it's busy because of lots that's going on in our nation, especially with regards to the horrific. Murder that took place of Charlie Kirk and what it implies. You know, I want to clarify: people get murdered all the time. That's right.
And every single one of them is wrong and it's painful and it's sad. As John Donne would say, you know, don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you. And that is implying that that's kind of like a reference to an English village when somebody died, they would toll the bells or ring the bells. And That so he's saying don't ask who died. A little bit of you just died.
So, also, in any time anyone anywhere is murdered or killed wrongfully, it's. It's sad. That's right.
So don't misunderstand this. But why is this significant? Because. This person was killed for his beliefs. And what were his beliefs?
His beliefs were Christian beliefs. That's right.
Unless you buy into the social media leftist, radicalist narrative, then it may seem like, oh, this guy was just a racist and a bigot and all those things. But if you look at it in the full context, he was anything but that. That's right.
You can frame all those things however you want to, but all of Charlie Kirk's conservative beliefs stemmed from Christian beliefs. We talk about that on the show. If you are a Christian, if you truly believe what the Bible says, then you will naturally start to build your worldview on those Christian values. And more often than not, those emerge in conservative culture.
So it isn't that, like, oh, he wasn't killed because he was a Christian. He was killed because he thought this about homosexuals and transgender. But he didn't think those things separate from his Christianity. Right. He had the values that he had because of his beliefs.
That's why I think you're exactly right. He was killed for his Christian faith. That's right.
All of his beliefs stemmed from that. That's right.
I mean, when we're talking about the beliefs on sexuality, he is going back to Genesis where God made them male and female in his image.
So what is marriage? Marriage is between one man and one woman for life. Of course, divorce happens. We're not talking about that here. But the hope is that people will reconcile or if this is your second marriage, make this count, right?
Or third marriage or whatever it is. But it's still between a man and a woman. Right. So what Charlie Kirk was saying is, you know, let's go back to the biblical model for marriage, for sexuality, for gender. The thing that upsets me a great deal when people are talking about Charlie Kirk and they're talking about that, they're calling him all those things that you listed, racist, bigot, homophobe, all those things.
They're latching onto one soundbite or even a portion of a soundbite that's taken, ripped, divorced completely from the context.
Well, yeah, they've been told to think all those things. Of course. I mean, they grab this one sentence that can be twisted to fit that narrative. But when you look at what he was saying in the larger interview or in the larger exchange with that person, Those words don't reflect what he was saying at all. Exactly.
And a lot of people have come out and have said it, but unfortunately, people. who are buying into this leftist radicalist agenda? Or are the ones behind this kind of an agenda just refuse to even remotely or even just little bit listen to what's being said. If you if you take a lot of the critics that are online, especially even the people who are criticizing us for like the even that we've talked about him, and it hasn't been a whole lot, but but they're very vocal when they criticize you online. If you ask them, do you follow Charlie Kirk?
Do you like listen? Do you watch his hour-long videos? Do you watch the Charlie Kirk show? They'll say, no, of course not. I don't.
I could what they do is they take these clips that have been Edited, and I'm telling you this as an editor myself, and a lot of us in this room have edited video. Dr. Sha, you edited video in your video. Absolutely. It is no problem.
Yeah. To take something completely out of context, put some text on it, and say, oh, listen to what this bigot has to say. And it sounds super bigoted. If I typed in like Charlie Kirk, racist, Charlie Kirk, bigot, I would find tons of clips that certainly paint him in that light because it's very, very easy to do. Right.
That's the interesting thing is that you would find clips that paint him in that light, not larger interviews, not long-form content because it doesn't, it's not there. And that's this. That's why I love that we, you know, as many of the reels that we do and stuff, we're always very careful with the things that we say because we know there are malicious people out there who are. But even as careful as you are, people can do it. Right.
And they do it. And that's why the American public, the Christian today in America, in fact, all over the world, we need to be even more perceptive and we need to really be discerning when we see images or clips. Or quotations, make sure you know for sure that's what that person really said in the context. If not, you're going to fall a victim to a lot of these things. And many Christians.
And pastors have fallen into this trap. And have been spreading lies. And that's what bothers me because they talk as if they are very. fair minded and concerned about what People like me are doing supporting a racist person. And I'm like, Really?
What kind of if this is the way you do your hermeneutics? I don't even know if you know the word hermeneutics because that means properly studying the Bible in its context. I don't know, man. I don't know what kind of, how do you, how do you study a text? And how do you, yeah, how can you get up and preach the text to your people?
Well, I think you said it rightly. There's no study going on. It's, I'm finding things that fit my agenda. I'm finding things that fit my narrative and I'm going to pluck them and do like a buffet style. Take what I want, leave what I don't.
And then here's my presentation to you. Right. I think the thing that is just so, so astounding to me is that there's, there's this push from people like, well, we want to understand both sides and we want to understand, you know, we've got to understand where this person is coming from. This person, the assassin who took Charlie Kirk's life. And I heard it, I heard an interview, but this person exploded in anger when they said that because this man was murdered.
Right. He was murdered on a spectacle for the world to see in front of his family. There is no understand both sides. There is no sympathy. There is no, we want to understand where this person's coming from.
This person was murdered in cold blood. And I've not seen it, I've not, I was surprised by a lot of the conservative people who want to suddenly play judge and play.
Well, let's understand why he murdered a man in cold blood. No, we need to find out where he was coming from. What was the reason for this? Like, all of a sudden, you're now playing judge, jury, and you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a very, very weird thing that Christians are doing.
Yeah, we start getting into motives. That's what these people want: okay, judge the motives, you know, figure out what my motives are. No, we often say that. You know, you cannot, you, you have to judge people based on their actions, not just their motives. That's right.
If you go by motives, everybody's motives can be somehow justified. Mm-hmm. I mean, I can go rob a bank as long as I can justify my motive because I want to. feed the hungry just like Robin Hood did.
So I'm okay for robbing the bank. No, you're not okay for Rosenbelt. It doesn't work that way. Yeah. Yeah, I can go kill you because I feel like you're a threat to the world.
But you're not. You're you're just a good man who Works out of church and takes care of his family. No, I think you're a threat. And I felt like you were a threat. And um I can Do you damage well?
So, maybe we can spend today talking about this because I think you really just hit on it with that word you just used, which is threat. A lot of people would take Charlie Kirk's discourse, his words, and say that is a threat. His words are threatening me. And so, because he's threatening me, I'm now justified in meeting that threat with violence. And so, I thought we could kind of talk today about this tension surrounding dialogue.
And surrounding debate in our country today, because it's getting to the point where I genuinely, I know this sounds like an annoying thing that conservatives say, but I feel like conservatives, we can't talk anymore. There is no discussion, there is no dialogue. You know, Western civilization, especially America, has been built on this idea that we can talk. We can reason, we can dialogue, and that idea is coming. Uh from A biblical Foundation as well as the best ideals.
of ancient Greek democracy, as well as the best reasoning minds of seventeenth eighteenth century Europe. People often get confused as to what laid the foundation of America. Where did the founding fathers go to find. The the reasons or The building materials to build the foundation of our nation.
Some often think that it is just Greek. Democracy, like the Lycian League or the Athenian model of democracy.
Some go to Europe and they think, like Montesquieu or John Locke or William Blackstone, they were the ones who gave us all the principles we have. And Jefferson, and Madison, and John Jay, and Benjamin Franklin, they just went to these European philosophers, these humanists, and rationalists, and these Enlightenment thinkers who gave us the ideas that made up our ideas. Our Constitution. The answer is is a little more complex. I picture the foundation as a three-blocked foundation.
Where the Bible is the center big block. And on either side are two I would say smaller. Blocks One would be... uh ancient uh classical writers and the other bloc would be European Enlightenment thinkers. Our founding fathers very wisely took the family.
took from all three of these sources. In constructing Our Right. Bible was foundational. I've preached on this before, I've taught on this before, that one-third of all the quotations that we find in the Constitution are coming from. The Bible.
That's right.
Right. There was a research done years ago. By Donald Lutz, and he said one-third of the quotes from our nation's constitution are from the Bible. And he says, like the ideas of a limited government Separation of powers. a system of checks and balances Rule of law.
Right. Due process. representative government civic virtue And social order, all these are coming from one book in the Bible, and that book is the book of Deuteronomy. That's true. Yeah.
A lot of people don't realize that the book of Deuteronomy played a leading role. In the writing of the Constitution. People don't want to have that conversation, though, because then that plays into America being founded on biblical values, on Judeo-Christian worldview. And that will completely derail the narrative of like our founding fathers were this, and this nation is founded upon the backs of slaves, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don't want to have that conversation because it's going to force them to confront their own warped view of reality.
And why Deuteronomy? Because that is the book that Moses was given by God. to help The Hebrews become a nation. I was just about to say it's the instruction manual on how to form a nation. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Which later on became Israel. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right. I'm I'm not talking about modern day Israel. I'm talking about ancient Israel. Book of Deuteronomy was their constitution.
And so our founding fathers turned to. The the the book That laid the foundation of Israel to give them. Information, understanding, principles on how to construct this document. Kind of funny because only ancient Greece ever gets any credit for founding Western civilization. Because there are a lot it does, it should get credit, and maybe we can talk about this.
I think this is a multi-episode show right here, and maybe we'll spend more time on this. And ancient Greece should get credit, but the proper credit.
Sometimes I think we just love those, you know, Leonidas and his 300, and we love Pericles and his funerary. oration after the first year of the Peloponnesian War. We we'd read those documents, we'd go, Oh, yeah, that's it. That's where we get our American democracy is the Greek Democracy. And that's not true.
That's true. Yeah. It's funny because we do think. We do think that America is so Self-contained. You know what I'm saying?
But it relied on. The Hebrew Bible. It relied on European philosophers. It relied on like classical writers, all of these different elements that came together to make this thing that is so beautiful. And it works because it has, like you said, the Bible is its foundation, but then it has diverse foundings.
It has diverse texts and writings that came together. And so it's not a, it's really, I would say, it's the least racist thing that exists because its very foundation is from all over the world. Yeah, it is. All sorts of things. It is.
Other than classical writers from Greece and Rome, especially Greece, and other than the Bible, there would be the Enlightenment thinkers, Whig writers, English common law. You know, this is where our founding fathers turn to to give them. The brick and mortar to build that third foundation stone. That's right.
It shows the wisdom in our founding fathers to pull from primarily the Bible, but from a diverse collection of resources, things that worked in different situations, really, the best of us, the best of human history to pull together to establish this new fledgling nation. Nothing like the United States of America has ever, ever, ever existed. On the face of this planet, nothing like this has ever existed. And I really wanted to think about that. I don't know what the world was like pre-flood.
I mean we have some information. Right, how things began to go crazy, and sons of God. Having sexual relations with the daughters of men and all that, you know, we know some information of the pre-flood world. Basically what we know Outside of the Bible is the post-flood world.
So post-flood world This I would say How many years? 4,500 years, right? 2,000. To the time of Christ and 2,500 years to the flood. Right?
If you go by the Genesis. Account.
So 4,500 years. We have 4,500 years of history. Nothing ever has existed. like our nation. Anywhere, ever.
Do you think that it can last? Even with all the craziness, do you think? Do you think that like all the craziness, all the chaos, all the unrest, do you think that the foundations are strong enough? to where we're not in danger of dissipating completely.
Well, if you had asked me that question about a year ago, I would have said I don't know. It was we were struggling. And I was trying to have hope and faith and trusting God and his promises that if we, his people, you know. 2 Chronicles 7:14, if my people call by my name, will humble themselves, pray, seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will. Hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land.
So I was hanging on to that hope, but in reality, I was struggling. I don't know, it's getting very dark. But Now, with a lot of very, very positive things happening in our nation, even through this horrible, gruesome murder. of a Christian man, People are coming to Christ. That's true.
So I think there is hope for America. Amen. I think there may be several answers to this question, but, Dr. Shaw, why has. This Assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Of course, it has impacted those of us who followed him and were impacted by his ministry. But there are people who have never even heard of his name that are. Being impacted by this, that are finding themselves more drawn to Christianity, that are finding themselves going to church for the first time, buying a Bible for the first time. Right. Why has this Affected our world in such a way.
On one hand, I can explain it. On the other hand, I can't. One hand, I can explain it that man, it's just emotional to see someone being brutally killed. By just because that person had opinion. Just because that person was talking to people.
And this person who was brutally killed was was a f was A harmless young man. 31 years of age, right? Yeah. Yeah, he's no good than me. Yeah, younger than you.
That's crazy. Yeah. And Pleasant, kind, nice. seemed like a good friend. all of a sudden murdered.
It is resting very heavy on a lot of people across the board. I think you're right. Yeah. I think you're 100% right. And those who are buying into the the narrative of the enemy, I will say enemy, evil evil message, th they they they have shut themselves off from this and maybe you're not feeling anything and I'm sorry.
But those who are actually taking the time to l even watch one of those videos all the way. without being spliced To fit someone's agenda. I mean, watch the whole thing, you go. Man. You killed him for that?
You killed him for that? Now I agree with everything he's saying, but If you don't agree with him, Let's say he's an idiot. Yeah. But to shoot him in the neck And then For people to celebrate that. Yeah.
You had no words to compete with him. All you could do was stand behind a building or stand on top of a building and shoot. That was all you could do. And if it was this young man, this deranged young man, I would say. Demonized, demon possessed.
um, do what he did. And Marassa Demon possesses, I'm not saying he's not responsible. He's absolutely responsible. He chose to do it. Mm-hmm.
And he needs to be held accountable. He did what he did. But for people to come and say Well, you know you reap what you sow or what he said He sort of bore brought it on himself. Those are kind of things that make that load even heavier, that burden even heavier on people. I agree.
So people are Struggling.
So that's I can explain to you why people are struggling. But then there's an unexplainable part where people are overwhelmed, and I cannot explain that other than the Spirit of God. Mm-hmm. Other than the Holy Spirit of God burdening people. in a way that I wish I could say many of my messages have done.
I wish I could say combined hundreds of thousands of messages that are preached every Sunday could not burden people as this thing is burdening people, moving them to a point of tears, moving them to a point of Coming to Christ. It's not just that they're in mourning or grieving or shock. They're coming to Christ. I mean, I know a person. Uh Who who radically changed her life.
And God changed her life. From going one direction to all of a sudden going the other direction, because of this horrible horrendous murder.
So I cannot explain that.
So, in a sense, I can explain this is what's happening. That's why people are doing what they're doing and how they're feeling. But on the other hand, I think it's a move of God. We can't explain like that, especially when it, like, what I mean by that is like, because it's so difficult to explain. Does it baffle you or does it give you peace?
Like, I know that's God. Yeah, it gives me peace to know, and that's why I want to be part of it. That's why I want to obey God, because If his life was contrary to the word of God, if his life was contrary to the life of Christ. the power of the Holy Spirit, I don't want to be part of it. I don't care who he is.
I don't care who she is, or how dynamic of a personality they are, or how well they can speak and winsome they are. I don't care. But if their life and their their testimony is lining up with the word of God, with the with the life of Christ. Then I want to give credit where credit is due, and the credit is that God is doing something, and I want to be part of that. That's right.
I don't want to be on the other side of this wave and say, oh, you know, I guess we should have too late. Yeah. I think that's a great answer and a great response to all the people out there who are like, oh, you're just celebrating him because he was conservative. It so misses the point. You're saying that God is clearly through this man's life, his ministry, and through his murder, God is doing something in America.
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And I want to. Uh help people in their journey.
To come to Christ. I've already come to Christ. I've been walking with Christ for many years. I've been helping people come to know Christ and learn and grow in God's word and turn away from wickedness or addictions or whatever else. But I want to help people in this movement.
To what God mo has for them. And I want to do everything possible. to encourage them. To be A shining light for them. I'm not the light, right?
I cannot be the light. I'm not the light. Uh just like John the Baptist said, I'm not the light. He is the light.
So I want to just. Let him shine.
so that more and more people can see it. and come to him, Because if this is the third awakening, That we all prayed for for decades. I've been in America over 30 years. And when I first came to America, I knew about the First Second Awakening. I knew about all that.
I knew about the revivals and the 10 revivals. I had heard about it in dad's messages and history, U.S. history. I had studied U.S. history.
So I knew about these things, but I did not know. did not care about it that much. I mean, why should I? Right. I grew up in India.
Yeah, you were like, what, 17, 18 years old? Yeah, when I came to America. Yeah. But Then being here and going to Church or chapel in college, which was a Christian college, seeing people talk about or hearing people talk about we need another awakening, we need another revival. And then I took Francis Schaefer's.
you know, um course. In a J-term class, and the class was on Western civilization, we studied Francis Schaeffer's How Should We Then Live? And that was That was very moving for me. I mean, I was sitting in that class going, two weeks I get another credit. Um Good with that.
Let's chill and relax over here. You weren't expecting it to change your life. No, no. This was a spring. This was January of 1993.
Wow. Yeah, I wasn't expecting anything out of this. Wow. Well I think it was ninety two. I can't remember now.
I wouldn't have even been born. Yeah. That's crazy. And I'm sitting there in this class, and I remember there was a chapel. We were meeting in the chapel.
and there was uh video set up up front. And, you know, I had my my Paper and pen, just taking notes, half sleep. And then started watching this uh video series by this man dressed up like a s Swiss, you know, with his These socks pulled up all the way to his ankle, or to his knees. And I'm like, what in the world is this? And then he began to talk, and I'm like, Wow.
I began to learn about philosophy and and and And theology and world movements, and what's happening in America. And it really transformed me. Amen. I love it.
So beautiful.
So beautiful for us to keep things in the proper perspective, too, to see with eyes of faith what God is doing. That's right.
I think it can be easy for us to lose sight of that and be discouraged by if we get stuck in a Pool of negativity online. But if we look with eyes of faith and see that God is at work and God is moving, and prayerfully, this could be that third great awakening that we've been. Asking God for. We want to be part of it. And our hope for you guys is: even if you did support Charlie Kirk, and even if you did, you know, you were one of his fans and one of his followers, maybe this episode has helped clarify some things for you.
I think it did for me. You know, it's not that we're celebrating a person. Yes, we're celebrating this person and this man and his life, but at the end of the day, it's what God is doing and not what God has already done, right? Because it's not like now Charlie Kirk is dead and the ministry stops. It's going to continue.
It'll continue through us, through you, through the new Christians that are coming to faith through this tragedy. Dr. Shah, I think this was one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. Oh, wow. Very, very cool.
I love it.
Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, and you can always support us financially at Avadansha.com. That's forward slash give.
John, what do you want to close with today? Definitely just want to remind you guys to check out all of the original programming over on the Truth Network. That is the network that this show is syndicated through first and foremost. You can also check out Drshaw on Prey.com. We just passed 50,000 followers last week while we were in Greece.
So we want to definitely thank all of you guys for your support. Thank you for your financial giving. Thank you for just sharing all of the shows that are on there. There's a lot of exclusive content on Prey.com as well.
So make sure you check that out. That's all. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow and play me today.
