You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome, welcome, welcome to our studio.
Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We got a great day for you, great conversation. Before we get into any of that, I want to welcome our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, Dr. Shah.
Dr. Shah, welcome. Thank you. We had a great guest on yesterday, of course, with Dr. Questions, but it's good to have you back.
I'm back. I'm back. I don't know. He was an imposter, but he does answer some good questions. Yeah, he does.
He does a decent job. He's no Dr. Shah, but he does a decent job. He always asks, and I hate to say this because he's going to miss this, but Dr. Shah, I'm going to give you a million dollars.
It's a great day for a million dollars.
So, Dr. Shah, one million dollars of every meal that you eat for the rest of your life. There's an unkillable fly. around the table.
Now, I picked this one because typically here lately you've been like, Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I was like, What would Dr. Shah not agree to?
Every meal, every meal that's an unkillable fly. He won't always, he won't like land on your food or anything gross. He's just around. For $1 million. Don't say it.
Don't say it. There's no way. I'm struggling. I know how much you hate flies. I do.
I do. Because where do the flies go? Yeah.
So I'll have to struggle with that one. I can't. He got to think about it. I'm not ready to say, yeah, I'll take it. I'm struggling with that.
What about you? Would you do it? I would do it. I would do it too. Yeah.
I just, I'd name him.
So, so here's the thing: I would say, like, growing up in the South, there was just always flies around your food. But I would imagine there's flies, like, were there flies in India when you were growing up? Oh, yeah. Like, because it was super hot and crowded. They're nasty.
Yeah.
Too many have uh, you know, look out the window and you see stagnant water because it's monsoon. Hey, good point. Good point. The flies I'm sure were around dirtier stuff like like in India than than we see. 'Cause I typically just see them like in a field or like if you're having a picnic, there's flies around.
Sometimes they get in the house. This is my buddy Flyler. Flyler? Flyer. Like Tyler?
Someone got rid of my boo. I had a sound bite that was just like, boo. Yeah, just name it, just make it part of the meeting.
So you're, Doug Sha, you're struggling with that one. You're struggling with the fly. That's the thing is, it's unkillable. Because we've had flies get in. But typically, when it is, it's like, all right.
Let's stop eating. Let's focus on this fly, kill this fly. And we've gotten pretty good at killing fly. Pretty efficient, yeah. Like, we can get a fly out of here in about like.
Three, four minutes. Yeah.
Uh but an unkillable fly around your food. You don't think that's tough. Million dollars, I may go with it. He's gone after the meal. Is he?
Yeah, he's just around during mealtime. He disappears after the mealtime. It's just mealtimes. But mealtimes is when you really don't want to fly.
So, yeah, that'd be a tough one. I'll have to think on that. Let me ask you this. When you're at the house, does it bother you if you're asleep? Will you get up out of the bed to hunt down a fly?
Like one that comes like buzzing. Yeah, buzzing by your ear. Yeah.
Yeah, I will get up. I'll get up, get a fly swatter, and go after it. I will try to get rid of it. Yeah.
Yeah.
You're not supposed to be in my house. You know, it's funny. You gotta live, but outside. Yeah, but you're not outside. You can't stay in your lane.
You gotta live in my house. That's right. Your life is fourfold. My dad was the same way. My dad would stop everything he was doing.
He would put the TV on pause. He would get up. He would hunt a fly down. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's not.
He's not crazy. He's going to take care of a fly. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, guys, before we get started, I just want to remind you about Dr. Shah's upcoming book, 30 Days of Seeing Christ in Judges. We are so excited about this next installment in the 30 Days devotional series that's a little bit different than the previous devotionals. It's going to be kind of an excursion into seeing Christ in these Old Testament books. And we pick Judges first because it's arguably the most difficult one, the most challenging one to understand.
But when you see it through the lens of Christ and through the lens of the Christian life, it becomes so rich and so rewarding and so incredible. I also think it says something a lot about you, Dr. Shah, because being a New Testament scholar, it's like a way to stretch yourself a little bit, to start diving into the Old Testament. It's a way to sort of. Of get out of your comfort zone and start looking at.
I mean, like, of course, we know Christ is in the Old Testament, but to really dive into it, and especially in the book of Judges, I can see that would be a way to stretch yourself in a way that. really benefits you in the end. You know what I mean? But when I was in the master's program, I came very close to going in the Old Testament. I I took um almost about the same number of hours in Hebrew, advanced Hebrew, as I did in advanced Greek.
And I took a lot of um Uh advanced Old Testament courses. As I did in the New Testament. Right.
So it was very much a close. Decision where, in fact, one of the Old Testament professors later on told me, He said, I really thought you were going to work with me. I was like, I know, and I ended up going in the New Testament, and he's like, Yeah, well, this is fine, but I thought you were going to go into the Old Testament because you took so much Hebrew and advanced Hebrew and syntax and all that. I was like, I know, I know, it came close. What was the deciding factor for you?
The deciding factor, of course, was Dr. Robinson. Like who you worked with. Yeah.
And again, my Old Testament professor was amazing, and he still is. I still keep in touch with him, and I'll be meeting with him soon. But. You know, had done some work with him, Dr. Robinson, in textual criticism.
With the Old Testament professor, I had focused more on just. Hebrew syntax, which is still very important. But not as much in Hebrew textual criticism or Old Testament textual criticism. Is the methodology different in Old Testament textual criticism, or is it still like comparing manuscripts, listing variants, all that? Evidence is Are different.
So in the New Testament, you're dealing with. Let's see, Greek manuscripts, you're dealing with the versions. Right? Latin Um Aramaic, Syriac, all of these. And I'm sorry, I said Aramaic.
Latin, Syriac, Coptic, you know, those kind of versions. And then you have um The church fathers quotations from the fathers. That's another one.
So Those are basically the evidences that you're turning to. But primarily focused on the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament. But Old Testament has different evidences. Old Testament, you get into, of course, the Hebrew. Text.
But then that's the Masoretic text. But then you're dealing with the Dead Sea Scrolls. uh which came earlier. But The text is different in places. Then you have the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
The CEP2 agenda. of course is earlier But it's a translation. The Masoretic text is later But it represents a text which is earlier.
So it gets a little bit crazy there. You have the Targums, you have the the Peshitta.
So. The evidence is different there. Also, the textual history is different. Old Testament written over What, about a thousand years? Right?
I mean, if you start with Moses, now if you even look to. The book of Job. Job was, we consider it to be the first book written based on how the Hebrew is laid out. Um Moses uh wrote Genesis, which is the earliest account. of the creation But it was written later, or at least put together later.
So, if we begin with, let's just say Moses, let's just go with Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. That's about. the sixteenth century, right?
Somewhere about there. Um Um B C So, from the 16th century to say Malachi, that's coming up to the 5th century BC.
So, the time span is also much longer. Yeah, that's like almost like a thousand years now. Unless you add like Job and, you know, figurative I mean, not figuratively, um, hypothetically earlier. Does that make it more difficult or does it like add components that New Testament critics doesn't have? It doesn't have, yeah, definitely.
And New Testament is written over a period of, I would say, maybe sixty years. Mm-hmm. You know, Jesus rose from the grave. And he was in his 30s, right? That's where we.
Assume based on the evidence. And then let's say the book of James was written in the first. five to ten years. And then that would make it about 8040 Mm-hmm. Roughly, 8040 to Revelation being written in 8095, based on some of the things.
John talks about in the book of Revelation.
So 40 to 95 is how many years? About fifty-five years. Yeah.
So Compare a thousand years to 55 years. It's a much different time span. And also, the manuscript evidences are very different. You have all the Greek. New Testament manuscripts, there you have the Masoret text, which represents the Hebrew text, but it's coming much later.
The Septuagint, which represents a translation, but it came much earlier, so it's like crisscross, you know.
So do you think it's more complex? If you ever were to delve into Old Testament textual criticism deeply, which I'm planning on, do you think it would be harder or just different? Because I'm already exposed to it, I studied it for several years. It's simply a matter of jumping back into it. Gotcha, gotcha.
I I'll be okay. I I I even wrote a compare contrast between Old Testament and New Testament textual criticism at one point. Really? Yeah, I've done I've done papers like that.
So I I am very Aware of the differences and the similarities between those two.
So I have a question. I know we need to jump into lightning round questions, but this is something that I've that I've kind of wanted to know. You tipped me off to this.
So, to a lay person, someone who's not like me, Ryan, David, we're not in the scholarly field. This is not something that we pursue. If you said something like, I've spent almost as much time. In Old Testament studies, as I have in New Testament studies. In my master's program.
Right, right, right. In my master's program. Right, but I would say, then you're pretty much an expert in both. But someone who's in the scholarly field would say, but that's not what your PhD is in.
So you're not an expert in it. Why is that? Because PhD, now you can still write. There are people out there who have written wonderful works and they only had a master's. And so I admire people like that because they've done a great job.
And they have compensated for that, but still getting a PhD forces you to study a subject on a level which can be peer-reviewed. Uh you you have to adhere to a certain standard. In how you research, and how you reference materials, and how you check to make sure that what you're saying is not. on a you know beginner's level. It it needs to deal with the the current issues and the The complex issues.
There's no like pasting it in chat GPT and then turning it in as your dissertation. That's not the same thing. No, you can't do that. You'll get in big trouble. But when I was doing my PhD dissertation, which was not that that long ago, six years ago.
It was six, seven years ago now. Yeah, there was no chat. Yeah, but now it's a different world. Yeah.
Silly, you're not allowed to do that. Oh, no, they'll catch it. It's not as easy. I remember when Chad GPT came out, everybody was so terrified that it's like academics is done. But within like a year of using it, people, you can spot it just like that.
It's not easy to spot. It's not as dangerous as everybody made it out to be.
So you would say then if someone's like as someone who has a PhD, you would say that someone who has studied something in their masters and studied something different in their PhD program, you would say they're both valid, but they're not comparable at all. Yeah, it's like, um, you know, you went out there and did your doctorate as a medical doctor, um, and and then you are here as a nurse, right? I mean, it's two different things. It's still in the medical field, but let's somebody go out there and gets a doctorate in nursing. That's still a Valid degree.
And it's very essential to teach nurses. But then you have a person who went out there and did a MBBS, which is, of course, it's a very different degree. Still a doctorate, but it's on a different level. Still a doctorate, still in the same umbrella field, but very different in how specialized. And textual criticism, I hate to say that as almost like a bragging point, not trying to be, but textual criticism.
In my opinion, it's like a neurobiology or neurology, I should say, not neurobiology, neurology of a medical field. It's very complex, it's very intricate. It's It's a very specialized field. Did you find that out in your early days? Yeah.
Or did some of that come into play as you were doing your dissertation? As I was doing my dissertation, I often questioned myself: is this who I am? Mm-hmm. Should I even pursue this? Because Ugh, it's tough.
Who caught all those like neurotic mistakes? Was it your professor? Like, you didn't have to find that out the hard way in front of a board or anything. No, my professor was great. You know, so he and I have been talking for years, like, you know, 15 years.
So, a lot of things we had already known. But when I wrote it down, You know, some of the things that I had written like 15 years ago in 2000. But of course, my understanding had evolved over the years, but still. In in my writing, Uh some of those Earlier statements that were almost juvenile. were still there.
And so he was like, Hey, you shouldn't be saying that. You need to change this right here. This does not sound right. I don't think you believe this, do you? I was like, no, I don't.
Okay, I need to take that out. That's a good point. I didn't think about that. Like, because you wrote, you were working on your dissertation, because at the same time you were working on your dissertation, you were a pastor, you were a full-time pastor. Full-time pastor.
And I was also. Because the church was small, so I had to supplement our income. Working other places. I was a principal of a school.
Well, prior to that, I was a. Public school teacher. Right.
Right.
Think about that. And they hired me under the assumption that I am going to. Work part-time. But the way they set up my schedule was, I would begin the first class of the day. I actually did.
Traffic duty. Really? Yeah, right. Yeah.
And a lot of the teachers, lady teachers would give me their. The traffic is like, Mr. Shaw, would you help me out? I'm like, so I would go out there and stand out there directing. The traffic in the morning.
What year was this? How old? 2000. 2000? Yeah.
Wow. And then I would go to teach my class that began at like 8:10. and then I would have classes all the way Until I want to say twelve o'clock. Or twelve thirty maybe, you know, add the little gaps in between. And then there is lunch.
Oh yeah, have a lunch break.
Okay, great. Then it was um One more class. And then you can leave. That's more or less full-time teaching. But that's my planning period.
But yeah, you can go But yeah, okay. I can. Plan for my classes. Yeah, like what's the point of going home and then still doing the planning period? Right.
So you're essentially teaching full-time. Full-time pastor of a new and rapidly growing church.
Well, it wasn't rapidly growing at the time. Gotcha. In 2000, it was not rapidly growing. That came later. Yeah.
So I was working full-time and then also doing my PhD work. And then also In you know, pastoring at church. By PhD work, do you mean the dissertation? Uh, dissertation hadn't started yet. What time did you get?
But in 2000, I began my PhD. Studies. 2000 to getting your PhD in 2019, 19 years of working on your PhD. It it Something you said kind of tipped me off to that. You're a different person.
By the time you're by the time you really are like Wrapping up this dissertation, you're going back and reading things that not only like have you grown, but you were a completely different person when you were writing them. I wouldn't say it was completely different. My main understanding was still there. Gotcha. It's just that time was not there.
Right.
Because.
So after, so I said, okay, 2001, I'm done. I'm going to now focus in on my studies. But then As our family began to grow, so I ended up keeping Nicholas. He was born, so I ended up keeping him at home. And prior to that I had a back surgery.
In two thousand two, so I was uh Quite incapacitated for that for a while.
So that happened. Then Nicholas was born.
So I was the babysitter. And still pastoring the church, still doing the PhD work. When that was. done two thousand five I go into Um Being a principal. Yeah.
And that was not a full-time job. That was double full-time job. Wow. And then also pastoring. And then also doing my PhD work.
Did you feel the stretch at the time? Oh, 100%. 100%. It was tough, tough, tough time period. And I did that for four years.
But I had to because. Not doing it would be not enough money to survive. Yeah, true. And then when that ended two thousand nine, Um And you know, felt like, okay, I'm jumping back in the PhD work. All of a sudden, the church began to grow.
Mm-hmm. That's incredible. Yeah, that's incredible.
So it's been, it's not by choice that I decided to take this to a 19-year ride. Right, right. It's just life. I guess the lesson there. For those who are listening, is sometimes you feel like You're just spinning your wheels.
You're just going nowhere or feel like it's not working out. But could it be that if God is at the center of your life, and if He is your life and He is your direction, you're looking to Him because. I was looking to him. All this time he was God. Help me to understand what your purpose is in in your wisdom, your guidance.
And also keep in mind during this period, which is 2000. Five onwards, I was also helping our church transition into Clearview. True, that's true. That's a great point. Don't forget that because that's also happening.
Mm-hmm. at the same time period as I'm being the principal of the school. doing my PhD work, Pastoring, I'm also helping our church go through those changes. Remember the change books? That's when I'm doing that.
Wow. So when people tell me it's like Oh, that's too much hurt. I'm like Well, then you will Not do much in line. Exactly. Yeah, you have the option to kind of sit back and say, okay, this is too much.
I got, ooh, I need to take a break.
Okay. But then you're only going to go so far. How did you lay down at night and clear your mind enough to fall asleep? I know. That's a good question.
There were many times I would wake up in cold sweat because I was like. Oh, my goodness, this is year Nine, and my PhD is not done. Year nine. People I used to teach in the master's program, because you know, when you're a PhD student. You get to teach.
Yeah.
They were finishing with their PhDs. Wow. And I was like. And you feel like a Like like So dumb, you feel as every time I would drive past the seminary, like go to the mall, driving by, I just would just get this feeling like I don't even want to look that way. Yeah, because I gotta finish this, I gotta finish this.
But how, when, when's the time? Yeah, which part of my life should I give up? True. Should I give up the school? I can, but then how are we going to survive?
Should I give up the church? No, that's my primary calling. Should I give up my family? That's not an option. Yeah.
So what can you? Yeah, what can you do?
So you keep. Juggling those balls in the air. Until God says I'm sending someone. And then they will help you juggle. You keep going doing that.
And that's the same thing I tell you guys. You know, when you're stretched, some people don't like to be stretched. They hate it. It's like, don't stretch me. I just like this.
This is what I want. I'm not you. And I was like, okay. You work hard. I'm going to sit back and chill.
Take it easy. I'm going to take a benefit. If I don't want to play, you do the hard stuff. Yeah.
I'm going to go to some church, and man, from there, yeah, the previous pastor. did a lot of work and you're hoping that you can just, you know, Racking the points. And you might can for a little bit. You might can for a little bit, but when the growth stops and everything, and you've got nothing to show for your five, six, seven, eight years in that. And then sometimes what happens is The church was growing until you came.
That's a difficult question. It doesn't take long for the leaders to figure out what. And two to three years down the road, you know, you rode on the, what's the word I'm looking for? The predecessors. The predecessors' momentum.
Yeah.
But now that momentum has run out, and now people are looking at you going. You're killing us, man. You know what's funny, though? I think you're exactly right because I have felt kind of like embarrassed about how long because I started the undergrad program in 2010 and are still working on it now 15 years later. And I definitely felt embarrassed about that.
But I watched Nicole. like like work hard to get her masters i mean her uh bachelor's degree and then win just a couple straight years got her Master's degree. That's right. Because the time in her life was correct. It was the right time in her life.
And she wasn't like pouty. She wasn't like Mopey. She wasn't like, oh, I wish I'd gotten this in my 20s. She was like, no, now's my time and I'm going to do it. And she did it.
And she did it. And I watched her do it. And I said, you know what? If she can do it, I can do it. And I don't have to sit here and like feel stressed about, oh, everyone's worried about when I'm going to get this degree or not.
The time in your life, I think that was worth someone listening. For today. Yeah, 100%. Absolutely. I know that was a blessing in someone's life who's maybe feeling frustrated, maybe feeling like, gosh, everyone around me is kind of surging past me and I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels.
But maybe, maybe it's not that time. Maybe you need to prioritize things differently. And I hope the story has been encouraging for those who are out there. Let me also remind some of our listeners and viewers that sometimes, and again, don't look at the ones who are surging past you as they're going to crash and burn. They're going to crash.
Don't do that. Pray that that will be successful, that they will do well in life. That's true. Don't be that kind of a person. Nobody likes a person like that who's like, I'm going slow, but man, all these people going past me, it's not going to end well for them.
Maybe it will. Maybe it will. So don't don't compare. But having said that, having said that, Some of the people who surged past me are not even in ministry anymore. That's true.
And so Some, not saying all of them.
Some of them are not even in ministry anymore. Either they made wrong decisions, bad decisions, or just decided to check out. And I'm like I remember that day when I was looking at these people and going, Man, if I only had that much time as they did, if I only had the opportunity that they did, if I had only taken the path that they took, I would be doing that. I would be doing this. But now, looking back, I'm like, thank you, God, for not letting me.
being led by my emotions, being led by What was happening in other people's lives around me? You're right. Because where would I be today? Right.
Probably the same place as they are. You're right. Again, I'm not saying everybody who searched past is just like a disaster. That's not true.
Some are doing great, and I'm so happy because that's wonderful. That's wonderful, because they God had a different plan for them as He did for me. But Don't ever compare. Don't ever look at somebody else or somebody else's post or somebody else's, you know. success story and go, why not me?
You are doing fine as long as like like here at Clearview. As long as you love the Lord, you're loving your family, and you are daily making some progress towards that vision that God has only given to you. Mm-hmm. Right.
And that and and here with our team, I tell people. tell you guys, you know God has put us together for great, great things to come. Amen. Don't lose sight of that. Keep your focus.
Keep working hard, keep daily making progress. My hope is: you know, you'll finish your bachelor's, do your master's, do your doctorate work, do your doctorate work, you know, finish your bachelor's over there, get those things done. But you don't have to run and rush to get it done. Yeah.
Of course, get it done. Nobody wants to have the degree hanging over you. Right.
But you're already serving. You're already doing things that people think if I just get this degree, I can get a good job. You already have it. Getting a degree is for personal accomplishment. For Blessing the ministry.
For opening doors for yourself and for your family to write and things like that, and for all of us as a team. That's right. But your ministry is not hinged on it. That's right. So speaking of degrees, we got a couple of minutes left.
How much do you think? We were going to do lightning round questions today, but at the end of the day, that's such an encouragement in thinking about, you know, the road ahead. And yes, we have these dreams and we have these goals and we have these aspirations, but God's timing is better than our timing. And, you know, by God's grace, he's brought us together for a purpose, for a plan, and we are able to accomplish something far greater than any one of us can on our own. And I'm grateful for you because I think one of the things that ambitious people do struggle with, and I say that in a good way, like good, godly ambition, wanting to achieve and overcome for the kingdom of God that we're working for.
But I think one thing that we do. Struggle with is comparing ourselves to other people. And I think I really appreciate you because you've helped me not completely overcome it. I still do it, but I'm able to see past it at a young age. You know what I mean?
So now we have the rest of our lives to do this the right way, God's way. And I think when you have, especially for our younger people who are in ministry who are trying to overcome this problem, man, if you've got a leader like Dr. Shah, if you've got a pastor or someone in your life, or even if it's Dr. Shah himself to you through this radio show, if you can overcome that while you're still young, man, you've got nothing but time to really enjoy the work that you do. And I wish you were saying something about like God having big things on the horizon, especially for Clearview Today.
I know there's something that came. An email that we got today that I wish we could share, but as more. We're still working on that, working on the details. And the time is right. Absolutely.
We'd love to share that. Yes, but just. Take our word for it, big, big things are happening for the Cleavery Today show that only God could accomplish. That's right. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station.
We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Pray.com, wherever you get your podcast from. And you can also support us financially at Abhadanshah.com forward slash give. John, peek behind the curtain.
Give us an update on what's coming up.
Well, a couple of things coming up in the Clearview Today realm. Number one is Dr. Shah's book, 30 Days of Seeing Christ in Judges. We started off talking about that. There's more episodes coming for the lighthouse.
Oh, that's coming out this fall, by the way. A couple episodes coming out for the lighthouse. That's daily, sorry, weekly devotions with Dr. Avadan Shah. New episodes every single Saturday.
The live stream that we did, the two-hour live stream, is live now. I know we were having some problems getting that uploaded. People are writing in saying they wanted to re-listen to the live stream. That is up. You can listen to that on our main podcast feed.
Also, want to encourage you guys to check out all the original programming over on the Truth Network. That's your one-stop shop for all Christian Talk Radio. And just like Ryan said, follow Dr. Shah on Pray.com. We are getting closer and closer to 50,000 followers.
That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearby Today.
