You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We've got a great conversation, continuing our conversation from yesterday.
But before we dive in, let's greet our host with the most, Dr. Abadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome to the show. I'm going to give you a drum roll.
Here it is, here it is, here it is. A long drum roll. That's a long drum roll. I've never had a drum roll. Yeah, it was.
That's an opener. Impressive.
Well, the drum roll is supposed to be you do the drum roll, then and ounce, but I'd already started the plaus, the air horns, and I just said, you know what? We got to just have a something new. You started the drum roll, and it reminded me of pick me up with his mind powers and shook me like a dog. What is that? What is that from?
That's from Monsters Inc. Monsters Inc. That's right. Pick me up with his mind powers and shook me like a dog. You know, with our children, I have a lot of those older movies.
When I talk about older, I'm talking about Aladdin or Lion King. And let's see. And of course, Monsters Inc. A lot of these movies are memorized. Yes.
Monsters Inc. is one of the very few Pixar Coop movies I've never seen. Really? I saw Monsters University. I saw Monsters University in theaters, and I was like.
I feel like I'm supposed to laugh at these jokes, but I feel like I need to see the original to laugh at it. Monsters University was fine, but Monsters Inc. was, that was a great. Monsters Inc. is one of those ones that I know everybody loves.
And I know that I would probably love if I just sat down and watched it, but I was fun. That and Cars. Never seen Cars. Cars either. Yeah, I think there's not a Pixar movie that I don't like.
I just need to actually.
Well, your kids will enjoy it. What's your favorite one, Dr. Shaw, that you've seen? Like all movies of all time? Yeah, just kids' movies that you watched with your kids.
Oh, there are several. I can't go with one. For Rebecca, it was Winnie the Pooh. Yeah. She loved Winnie the Pooh.
For Abigail, I think it was. Probably Aladdin, maybe, I think. Abigail Love, yeah, for the boys, of course, now we're getting into cars and Monsters Inc. and you know, movies like that.
So, with each one of them, oh, wait, I think Abigail was What is a dragon movie? The Pete's Dragon. Pete's Dragon, the old one. The old one. Mickey Rooney.
I've actually never seen that one. Yeah, it is Mickey Rooney. It is Mickey Rooney. I've never seen Pete's Dragon. Oh, you'll enjoy it.
Never seen that one. Yeah, it is old. It's like the 70s, 80s, something like that. 70s. Yeah.
I know Rebecca was a huge fan of the Aristocats as well. That was one of my favorite. I loved Thomas O'Malley. I have a distinct memory of coming over to your house one night, Dr. Sharon, when the boys were young.
Like they were, they had to be maybe Asher's age, like six, seven. Nicholas would have been eight, but they were laying in the floor. You know, where the, where the, so if you come in out of your kitchen into your living room, that trash can't right there, right? You had this little small TV. I mean, the TV could not have been like this big, like this laptop.
It was a little small TV. And they were watching Robin Hood, like the fox and the terror Robin Hood. I had a picture of it somewhere and I've lost it. I wish I could find that picture, but they were laying in the floor. Their heads were together, sprawled in opposite directions, faces like two inches away from that little screen.
And I had to step over them. I don't know why, but every now and then to this day, one of them has Robin Hood music as the ringtone. That's right. And the reason for that is that we did not yet have the Netflix account, and so we did not need to go there because we had our VCR. This TV is a TV VCR built, and So we had the Robin Hood on the VCR.
So they popped it in. Y'all were kind of smart because that was even still in like what 2015, 16, like Netflix, all those streaming services were a thing. But y'all knew, like, these are little kids. They don't know the difference between a VCR or they didn't care one bit.
So, like, we've kind of messed up because now Gavin is like, oh, I like Disney Plus because my shows are on there. But today I want Paramount. Today I want this. And it's like, we're paying for all this. We could have just saved the VCR.
We could have saved the DVD player. Popping the DVD player. Pop the DVD player. And there are a lot of things like that. You know, we are nostalgic about, but you have to decide whether or not they are helpful.
That's right. And that sort of launches us into today's program where a lot of people are nostalgic about drinking, but whether or not it's helpful, that's a different question. We're going to tackle that today. Our verse of the day today comes from Romans chapter 13, verse 11. And do this, knowing the time that now it is high time to awake out of sleep.
For now, our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. Nostalgia can do that to you. Nostalgia can put you into a State of sleep where you're like, oh man, I just remember my party days. I remember being so young and free and carefree. And I would just go and drink and rip the town apart.
And man, now I'm in my 40s, 50s, and I just wish I could relive that. Yeah, I don't know who wants to do that.
Some people out there. Yeah, but it's not all that it's cracked up to be when, in reality, you find yourself empty, alone, having the same problems that you had the night before. They're there. In fact, they're worse now because you made certain decisions, you did certain things because you were under the influence. Right.
And we're talking about not the influence of the Holy Spirit, but under the influence of the other spirits. And you have made some bad choices. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we talked a little bit yesterday about this, about how wine, when we read that, because a lot of people will try to use that.
Well, you know, they drank in the Bible. Jesus drank and the apostles drank and Paul drank and even urged Timothy to drink. But we talked a little bit yesterday about how the wine that they drank back then is not at all comparable. To the wine that we drink. That's 100%.
We ran out of time a little bit, but do you want to kind of pick that conversation back up where we left off? Absolutely. One reason people drank wine is because water was not easily accessible, or at least clean, pure water like we have. You can turn on the tap and there's water. Travel across the world, in many places, they will tell you: do not drink the tap water.
Only drink bottled water.
Sometimes I get paranoid even when it comes to brushing my teeth because I'm like, but I'm putting it in my mouth. What does that do? Where's the line? Like what's okay and what's not. That's right.
And so was that a thing in India when you were growing up? Like don't drink tap water?
Well, we could. There was a time when we could, and then there was a time that you stopped doing that. Yeah, okay.
So I remember. we used to have this stone. It was called Alum. Alum. and you would take that stone and you would just Um Run it through the water in your hand, actually.
You're holding it in your hand. You can hold it with a pair of tongs if you wanted to, but just with your hands, and then you would let the water sit and come back in about 20-30 minutes, and all the impurities would be on the floor on the bottom. Stone would draw it under this. Yes. Okay.
Yeah. It does that, I've never heard of that. That's really cool. You did that as a kid? Oh, all the time.
Wow, all the time. Because we, I remember a point where just turn the tap on, drink water, and then I remember. Parents saying, No, don't do that. You have to put the use the alum.
Okay. And you would do that. And then it would um it would And you could see them. You could see the impurities.
So you fish the impurities out and just. No, no, no, you just drank the top of it.
Okay, okay. Yeah, and that would be safe. Yeah. So also in biblical times, yes, they had wells. Yes, they had spring water, like fresh springs.
But Most people did not have ready access to clean, pure water, bacteria, pathogens, and so. And they did not have the ability to boil gallons and gallons of water. How are you going to do that? Right. Very expensive.
Right. It's a different kind of world. And so they drank wine. Mm-hmm. But this was not just You know, like the wineries we have today in bottles, like they were just in the drinking away.
No, this was. Diluted wine And uh uh to be very honest. Most of it was water with a little wine in it. And we read last time One of the authors, ancient writers, even says that the mixture is really water. With some wine in it.
So, is it fair to say that even though we can call it wine, really functionally, it was more just like flavored water? I would 100% agree with that. Which changes the whole perspective on these parties where there was wine flowing and people were drinking. There was this mixture that was happening that we don't talk about because people use these as proof texts to justify drinking today. There were times in festivals that people drank more than they were supposed to, more less diluted wine.
And that's where the ancients would even get onto their people. There is a quote where Cicero, I believe, is fussing at. At Mark Anthony, and I want to read that code if I can find it right quick. While you're looking for it, I was going to say, that's one of the things you really don't want a historical figure to fuss at you and get onto you because it's there for the rest of time. Like, no one's ever going to forget that.
These guys would get onto you, but they were also writers and they were the ones that carry the records of history.
So, you're going to get immortalized, probably not for not a way you want to.
So, here is Cicero writing about Mark Anthony. He says, You drank such quantities of wine at the marriage of Hippia that you were forced to vomit the next day in the sight of the Roman people. Mark. Come on, Mark. Don't do that.
Crazy, isn't it? Oh, action disgraceful not merely to see, but even to hear of it. If this had happened to you at supper amid those vast drinking cups of yours, you would not have thought it scandalous. But in an assembly of the Roman people a man holding a public office I mean Cicero, who is a who is a famous orator, He is letting more anthem. Yeah, because you're not just drinking diluted water or diluted wine, you are getting drunk and acting the fool.
In front of the Roman public. Which is a good indication. Your point being that even in ancient times, people did not look on drunkenness with. They didn't look on it lightly. No, there was no positive view.
There was no favor shown toward drunkenness. That's right. Does that mean people didn't d get drunk? No, i they did. But when they did, it was not something that was praised.
It wasn't like, oh man, they're having a really good time. I wish I could have a good time. Yeah, and then, of course, there are people who are who will always praise alcohol or sing to alcohol or sing about how great it is. But those are usually looked upon as rowdy, looked upon as body. It's not something that a good cultured person would do.
And so people like Homer, they suggested a ratio of water to wine twenty to one. 20 parts of water to one part wine. Yeah, I don't know what that would be at that point. I don't know if you can taste it at that point. Yeah, I was going to say it's mostly a little grape flavor in your water.
Yeah. If that. Pliny suggested eight to one. Aristophanes, two or three to one. Eunos three to one.
And this is what he said. He said the best measure of wine is neither much nor very little, for 'tis the cause of either grief or madness. It pleases the wine to be the fourth. Hmm. Mixed with three nymphs.
Three to one ratio. Yeah, three parts water than one part wine. Right. He said that is better. And then of course Hesiod and Lexus and Diocles, Ion, Neo uh Nicocarus said five to two.
Okay. And then, of course, there is Anna Creon, who suggested two to one. Nonetheless, all these writers, and there's, by the way, there's a work in which. Ancient work that actually catalogues these ratios.
So that's why it's so readily available. They were all saying Don't drink it acratos. Akratos is another the amphorae. Amphora is is the big container in which pure concentrated wine was kept. Then there is a kratos.
which this is the mixing bowl. First water and then wine is added to it. And then there's the Kylix, which looks more like a saucer, not like a big jug or a big bottle. Not something like this here. Not a big mug.
It it was like a saucer. Yeah. Kylix. That's what you were drinking. And so Akritos means.
Wine that has not been mixed. Like you just go back to step one, dip it straight in that. Pure, unfiltered wine, and just drink it. And they did not like it. Neither did the Romans, because the Romans, in a sense, You know, copied a lot of what the Greeks and the Phoenicians were doing when it comes to drinking.
And so Romans had their own name for it, they called it Mirum. Uh Latin for unmixed.
So when you don't put water in the wine, then it is mirum. Mirum means unmixed in Latin. which gives us the word Mirror. Mirror. Mirror.
This is just what it is. That's right. So so you that's where you get the word like mere speculation or mere pennies or mere Christianity. It's not mixed with anything else. Right.
It's pure. See, it's kind of funny because we've we've taken mere to mean like Like insignificant, it's small, but really it means it's pure. That's all it is, right? It's really mirum is unmixed. I like that.
Yeah. And so the ancients, Greeks, Romans, others. All suggested, please mix it, dilute it, because this is not good. What's going to happen if you have too much wine in it? You're going to.
Act a fool, you're going to get hurt, you're going to cause violence, you're going to act in a way contrary to how you want people to esteem you. Don't do it. Mix it. And then they would give different suggestions as to the ratio. You have all these images and examples of drunkenness, either from history or from art or things that are like frescoes that have been recovered.
But There was never really a time where that was looked on Fondly. There was never really a time where it was like that was to be idolized. No, it was there. Of course, it was there. People getting drunk was there.
But it was not. Extolled or praised all the time. There were times, yes, you will always find people who will praise things that are not good for you.
So I'm not going to say that every Mention of wine in ancient times was just full of condemnation. Not true. There were times people sang praises to wine. But Overall decent law abiding citizens would say, Hm Slow down there. What about if you go even further back to the time of the Old Testament?
Like, I think there's people out there who would say. You know, well, the Old Testament itself says that wine is God's gift to us, and so therefore it must be a good thing. And maybe they would even make the argument that over time humans made it bad, but God said that it was good, or he said that it was a gift. Yeah, there are people who do say that. And I think, again, they not only misunderstand ancient history, but also misunderstand the history of the people of Israel.
Last time I mentioned a little bit about wine, which is yayen, and shakar, which is strong drink.
Some people have made the case, some scholars have made the case recently that shakar is really beer made out of grain. And even then even though it's fermented and now it has alcohol in it. It it was never To be kept too long because if you do that, then people will get drunk. Right, right.
So men, women, children were drinking beer. But not, don't, don't think of him like popping a can of Bud Life or Budweiser or Coors. That's not what they were doing. That's what people think. Oh, kids were drinking beer.
There you go. No. It was not the same at that. Not the same thing that we have today. There was no alcohol in it.
No, there was alcohol there. There was alcohol in it. I got you. But not to the level that kids were running around getting drunk. Can you imagine that?
No. People often think, often have such a misguided and incomplete understanding of history. They think back in those days, man, they must have let kids know when you read other documents, you see how parents are teaching their kids to not fall for inebriation and be careful about these things. Like the father in Egypt talking to his son and saying, If you do that, this is what's going to happen to you.
So, once you put all these things together, you realize. even if children drank that beer, It was not. Like the beer today. Yeah, it's a very good idea. And meant to be consumed quite Quickly.
Well, you mentioned yesterday that, you know, the Bible makes a distinction between like wine and strong drink, you know, like drink that's like wine that like we've talked about, that's diluted, and then strong drink that's meant to get you drunk. Yeah. They're two different things. There are several references I want to mention very quickly. One is Leviticus chapter 10 and verse 8.
It says, Then the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink. Wine is Yayin, intoxicating drink is Shakar. I wish. The translators would have left it as is. They made it intoxicating drink.
So was the wine not intoxicating? No, it was. It was mild, diluted wine. Shakar would have been undiluted. Wine.
But God is saying, don't drink either one. You nor your sons, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die. He's talking more to the priests.
Okay, okay, okay. were to abstain from all alcohol. Priest. Priest. Priest.
Aaron and his sons. Not the full people of Israel, just you and your family. That's right, because you are. How can you be leading God's people if you're not sober?
Now, let me kind of jump over because we're going to come back to this over the next couple of episodes. We are now a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. That's true. That's true. The priesthood of believers, which means how God expected those priests to be in ancient times, the Hebrews, the Israelites, is how you and I should be.
We should be sober. And if you go back and read in the New Testament how many times Paul says and others, be sober, be vigilant. Your adversary, the devil, is walking about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Be sober. Those instances throughout the New Testament, do you think that.
They were speaking directly against drunkenness, or was this more of a general spiritually sober-minded? I think it was more about spiritually sober-minded. It reminds me of. But it does apply. Yeah, because it reminds me of when people said that Jesus came to do away with the law, but really he just raised the stakes.
Like, I talked about it yesterday where he was like, you know, the Old Testament says the scriptures say, don't commit adultery. That's a great point.
So it makes perfect sense for him to be like, hey, look. That was just for the priests, but I say now you're all priests. You are all. It's very characteristic of the New Testament to get stricter. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. Yes, we are living in the age of grace. But if you read the Bible, I'm talking about the New Testament carefully, they were very concerned. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they were very concerned in their writings to make sure that.
Freedom from the law was not used. For a lax. and immorally corrupt Life. We've only got 10 minutes left, so I don't want to get you off track. This might be an episode for another day, but why do you think?
When the text specifically points to everything getting stricter, people make the New Testament. out to be something that lowers the standard. Because it's a huge misunderstanding of grace. Right. You've got this emphasis on grace in the New Testament, but I think people just.
Take that, and it's just license to sin. Right. Like, I just get to do what I want now because I'm forgiven because Jesus died on the cross. Yay, for me. It's not a get out of consequences free card.
You have God's grace, but that doesn't mean that we're absolved from holy living. The jury is still out as to which one was the first book. in the New Testament canon. We don't know for sure. He didn't like give us a list.
Like a date. But if you were to look at the theology, the writing style, the the Greek vocabulary and syntax Most people believe that it's the book of James. Really? Yes. Wow.
James was the first one.
Okay. Why is that important for this discussion? Because James is one that tells us faith without works is dead. Because very early on in the growth and development of the New Testament church, people were thinking, hey, Law is over, man. This is a new world.
Jesus came and law is gone. And in some sense, yes, but the principles are still there. And so, isn't that funny that James is the one that people argue about the most? Like, should it be canon? Yeah.
Yeah. Is that why? Because James is saying, hey, we're not that far removed from when Jesus was actually here.
Well, there's one book that Martin Luther, the German reformer, did not quite like. It was the book of James. He called it an epistle of straw. Wow. He wanted that out of the canon.
That's why I love Martin Luther, but I cannot go along with him there. Yeah. And people have tried to justify it and kind of defend him and all that. And oh, like like he didn't mean that, but Come on, if you read what he's saying, what else can an epistle of straw mean?
Well, also, I mean, if we're going to hold him up as this incredible reformer, which he was. Oh, definitely. Let me give you a couple more references. Our time is very short. But Numbers chapter 6, verse 1.
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the children of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazarite, to separate himself to the Lord, he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink. Oh, translators, really messed up. Wine and similar drink. In Hebrew, And Shakar. It's not similar, it's really The strong drain.
Wine that is wine that is mixed and then undiluted. Don't do that. What are these poor translations doing? Are they. Like Making these two things similar when they're not similar.
Maybe that, maybe some of them drink, drank. Maybe these translators had an ulterior motive. And so they're thinking, yeah, it's not clear. We don't know for sure what shakar is. Let's just make it similar drink rather than being very clear and let this distinction stand between wine, which is mixed, and shakar, which is unmixed.
Is this potentially an intentional softening of the language? Could be. Wow. By the translators, not the biblical writers. Biblical writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were very.
Much giving us the words of God. Translators, on the other hand, Make mistakes. Translators have an agenda. Not always, but many times they do. And so we always need better and better translations.
It's interesting to me that the first tenet of the Nazarite vow is abstaining from alcohol. That's the first, right out of the gate. That's the first thing we're going to handle. We should, you know, take that seriously because that means something. Yeah.
I mean, if it's in the Bible, I don't see anything in the Bible. There's very little evidence that points to, hey, drinking is a good thing. We should enjoy it. That's right. A few moments ago, I said something about Aaron and his sons, the priests, were told not to drink because they need to be sober.
If you're going to lead the people of God, you need to be sober.
Now we are the priests before God. We are a kingdom of priests. we also should be sober. But we're also Not only were we kingdom of priests, we were also kings before God. Right.
Right. Listen to what it says right here in Proverbs thir uh chapter thirty one, verse four. It is not for kings, old lemuel. It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes Intoxicating drink. Which is Shakar.
Yeah. So Solomon is writing to his son and telling him, don't drink wine because you are a king. Don't drink shakar, strong drink. You can make a case for beer if you want to. Do not drink either of them.
If you're a king or a prince. We are now a royal priesthood, a holy nation. We It you get that royal priesthood. Not just priests before God, but also kings who are priests before God. That Proverbs 31:4 also applies to us.
Right. That's right. So I guess the I'll the the big thing to ask here is Why are we fighting this so hard? And why are we trying to. Which seems like it's laid out pretty clearly.
Like, the evidence is there. Why are we. either not latching onto it or just uh sort of diminishing it. I don't know. I think it's cultural.
I think it's something that our world has. Has embraced since Noah. I mean, we could go beyond that because I think there was wine in ancient times. I mean, I'm talking about the pre-flood era, but I think after the flood. Noah Became a farmer, planted a vineyard, drank, and we can talk about that maybe in another show, what happened to him.
But I think it has become such a part of cultures and civilizations and And bad and rough people, and nice and sophisticated people. This is part of life. And so people think. Did not do this. You're missing out on a fundamental Gift from God.
Yeah, but it seems, it just seems like people are so ready to use the Bible to try to contradict the Bible. Like, all of these, like, especially in Proverbs, there's so many, so many verses that condemn alcohol outright. And yet, we're wanting to use the New Testament, which is actually stricter on alcohol. Um to say no, but look, they did it.
So therefore I can do it. Yeah, and it's it's very tragic. I mean, there's one proverb, Proverbs twenty three. Uh it is very explicit. I'm going to read it very rapidly.
Our time is short. Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints?
Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Yain, those who go in search of mixed wine. The word is not shakar, it's mimsock, which is not really mixed wine, but the mixing bowl. Do not look at the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper.
Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart will utter perverse things. Yes, you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, or like one who lies at the top of the mast, saying, They have struck me. But I was not hurt. They have beaten me. But I did not feel it.
When shall I awake? That I may seek another dream. Drink. Wow. That's very characteristic of people who are struggling with this, who are looking for justification for this.
When can I have another one? When can I have another drink? When can I, when can I? Even though all this has happened to me. Like that.
That's tragic. Gosh. We're going to continue this conversation on tomorrow's episode. Guys, write in and let us know what you took away from today. 252-582-5028.
Remember that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes. Big thank you to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget to share this episode with your friends and your family as well. You can always support us financially at albadanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today?
We are going live on the live stream, August 15th, 7 to 9 p.m. We are going to be part of our 24-hour prayer vigil. We'll be taking your calls, so we want you to call us 252-582-5028. We're going to pray with you online. You can save that number in your phone.
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And make sure you join in for tomorrow's episode. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow. We'll clear you today.
