You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We got a great conversation here today with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who, if you're listening for the very first time today, Dr.
Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio today. You know, that introduction was sort of recorded, but it just the speakers take a second to come on.
Something was missing. It felt like there was a cadence that was missing, like a rhythm that's just a little bit off. It is. It feels like there's usually a. I usually have a guy for that.
Yeah.
Someone. Who I mean I miss him already. But I can't, I miss him too, and I can't place my face. Oh, wait a minute. Ryan's not here.
So, Ryan is traveling with a lot of our middle school only, right? That's right. This is our middle school mission trip with his wife, of course, and tons of volunteers. Of course, David is gone as well. Nick is gone as well.
Adam, and so they're gone. And they are going to be gone for the whole week. New engineer in the studio today. That's your youngest son, Thomas, engineering the show. We've got Libna as well, learning how to do it.
Lots of volunteers. What I love about that, and I don't know how many years this has been the case, but like the student ministry at Clearview has grown so much that you can't take the entire student ministry on a trip. No, you can't. At one time, both the middle school and high school were combined together as the student mission trip, and it was like an entire village descending on the campus of Fruitland. Institute, Fatal Institute, yeah.
It got to the point where it's like, are we going to charter multiple buses or should we just split this into multiple buses?
Well, we had multiple buses, multiple buses and vans. That's insane. And finally, Ryan came to me and said, What do you think if we were to split this? I was like, I was hoping you would ask because it's time because you can't really give. Adequate attention to the students.
And if you're creating games and activities and Bible studies that are more geared towards middle school, then high school students are sort of bored. And if they're more high school focused, then middle school students don't really connect.
So thank God our ministry has grown under Ryan and Elizabeth's leadership. I couldn't lead student ministry if I. You know, give my heart, soul into it. Same. Same.
Yeah, it's not because I don't like students, it's just that there's a certain. Understanding that is that is required. There's a level of empathy you have to have, you know, because if not, you will either be like completely hands-off or you will be just like always on them. Like, hey guys, don't do that. Hey, come on.
Everybody, sit down here and just do not move. Play quietly, do a puzzle, read a book. Get off the pool table. That's right. And not with Ryan Elizabeth.
They're like. They know how to get deep into the word of God and at the same time have fun. I used to lead the worship. Do you miss it? No.
First, second, and last stanza. Hit number 221. 224, yeah. That's right. That's right.
No benedictions, though. No turning to page 881 in the hymnal and reading the Creeds. No, no, we didn't do that. We were Baptist. Yeah, fair enough.
I did. I did. Do remember leading the worship? Yeah.
At this time, let's all stand together as we turn in our hymnals to hymn number 335. Did you lead in the sense where it's like, I'm just going to sing until they sing, and then I'm going to back off a little bit? Yeah, that's exactly what we did. I saw a lot of people calm down, and then I would just like back away. You just unplug the mic real quietly.
Well, Dr. Shah, today's verse of the day is coming to us from Matthew chapter 7 and verse 7. It says, Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be open to you.
And it's encouraging to me because, like, as believers, we have an invitation to pray to our Heavenly Father. And I think we forget what a privilege that is. Amen. Yeah.
You know, one of the things you've heard me say in our Tuesday morning prayer time, men's prayer time, we have a bunch of men that come close to 30. At one time, even 40, 45, but you know, summertimes is a little lower. But when they come together, we divide up in groups and then we spend time in our individual prayers. Groups like five men per group, and in our group, which is just our staff, we We hardly have any time to pray. And so I often tell our guys, you're there.
Yeah.
Hey, get to the point. That's right. Don't talk about what's happening. Right. Don't give a description of what's taking place.
You don't need to describe things. Dear Lord Heavenly Father, we just want to come before you, God, and just lay our hearts, lay our hearts on the table, Lord. We're just. We're so humbled and we're so chuffed and we're so cheesed to be here before you today, Lord. You know, cheese.
It's like, it's like, God knows. God knows. Let's get it. And then describe the event. It's like if I were praying for the youth event or the student ministry, it's like, God, it's just amazing to see how our students are coming together and going and their hearts are so young and innocent and they want.
What are you doing? Yeah.
Go ahead. I would say it this way. If you had only 20 seconds with the President of the United States, President Trump is sitting there and you can walk in the room 20 seconds, ask him for what you want, what would you do? Oh, you know, President Trump, it's so great to be able to just be here in the Oval Out. What a privilege.
What a great, great privilege. If it pleased you, your presidency, I just wanted to ask you. No! You're 20 seconds ago. The Secret Service just takes you out.
And so, also, with this ask, seek, and knock, get to the point. That's right. Okay. Of course, Heavenly Father, we come before you. Thank you for this day.
We pray, be with our students, keep them safe, open their hearts, help them, Lord, to not only seek Christ, but seek the fellowship of each other, but also go out there and make a difference in the world to share the gospel, to love the people, to serve others. That's right. I mean, That's Asking. Oh, yeah, that's it. Ryan Elizabeth, bless them, Lord.
Be with each of the volunteers. Help them to see you in all that they're doing. That's right. That's right. And you know, one thing that we've been praying for a lot, not only on Tuesday mornings, but just a lot as we've been, you've been doing this sermon series and as we have been talking on the radio show, is praying for our nation.
You know, Independence Day weekend has passed. For a lot of us, we rode that patriotism wave, but now maybe it's starting to fade away as we're getting back into our routine. But I think for us, and I know for Ryan as well, for all of us here at Clearview. We're called to pray for our nation at all times. And I think a lot of times we forget that as Americans, that we're constantly to be in a spirit of prayer.
And politics is something that we often discuss on the show. And it's not a political show. It's first and foremost a biblical show. But I think, and we talked about this a little bit on Friday, people try to separate those two. They're often thrown that we're willing to discuss politics on a show that is primarily Bible-based.
We had the National Day of Prayer where we were invited to be at the White House. And that was a great indication that things have changed in our country and changed for the better. Because often when we heard things have changed in the past two, three decades, it's been not for the best. That's right. But now things are different in the sense of we are welcoming God back into the public square.
We're praying to God. We're reading scriptures. I'm not saying for a single moment that everybody out there in politics on the national level, state level, or city level are born-again, saved, godly people. No, but they are seeking God. Right.
Okay, now we can call each other hypocrites and all of that all day you want, all day that you want, but at the heart of it, no one knows anyone's heart. That's right. So, all I'm saying here is there is a change, and it's a welcome change, especially if you are a Christian in America. We are once again returning to our roots. We're returning to our foundation.
And we'll talk more about this. Yes. But the foundation is. Biblical values. The foundation is a Judeo-Christian worldview.
That's right. The founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing. They were bringing the Bible into the very essence and the heart of what America is and would become. I actually got a text from someone, Mark R., in Houston. This is our daily check-in.
And don't forget, by the way, this is one of the rare texts that we get. A lot of people have started messaging us on pray and on YouTube and even on the Facebook channel and Ahbadanshah.com. But you guys can also text the show directly: 252-582-5028. And this is what Mark R. said: He said, I just wanted to say, I've been really enjoying your political episodes and your sermons too.
Don't let anyone online silence you. We need more voices speaking truth with boldness. God bless. Just when you're talking about biblical values, like the value of life, like traditional marriage, things of that nature, immediately you have someone who will say, Separation of church and state, you're breaching the wall of separation. And I'm like, for one, that is a misunderstanding.
Yeah.
When Thomas Jefferson wrote that statement in that letter to Danbury Baptists, he was not telling them to keep church and state separated. He was actually speaking on behalf of them. You said something really interesting that I thought maybe we could talk about, which is that. Throughout the last few decades, God has essentially been banned from the public square. Everybody gets an opinion on how America is to run, except for God.
And by that extension, By Christians as well. They are the only ones whose opinions we really actively don't want to hear. Why do you think that is? I mean, it has been coming for, I would say, at least a hundred years. At least a hundred years.
But especially in the past, I would say three to four decades. I've been in America since 1991, so that would make it, what, about thirty-five years? Yes, I think so.
So I've seen that Much more now than when I first came. But even then, Even thirty five years ago it was I could It was a shock to me. Coming from India, which is A secular society, at least at the time it was in the 1990s, where It was much of the rule and the way of doing things was based on the British. Um system? Mm-hmm.
The British law, the British political political, yes. But the mindset of the people behind it was very Hindu-based, Hinduism-based.
Okay. So it's a hard. To explain where many ways you go, wow, this makes sense, this is how things should run. But the way you're doing it It's different. It's not based on a Christian worldview.
And again, keep in mind. The way The United States was founded was not the way India was founded. Right, right.
Okay. United States foundation was very, very, very, very different. No other nation, I mean, I'll go in and say no other nation, Greece, Rome, whatever, can ever compare to how the foundation was laid for this nation. 250 years ago. That's pretty significant, right?
Because people will falsely compare America to Greece or to Rome and say, look, as great as these civilizations were and as much as they impacted the world, they fell. And America's day is coming. Oh, yeah. Yesterday I printed out an article that was written maybe three, four months ago. And it was about, again, we're in the last stages of the Republic, just like Rome.
And here's the problem with that statement. What this person is saying is a lot of good things that are thought-provoking. But the foundational problem is Rome was not founded. On Christian principles. Right.
Rome was founded as a kingdom to start with. and then it went to a republic and then it became an empire. He said, Well, and that what we're doing here? No. The foundation was very, very different.
Read our Declaration, read the Constitution, read the Bill of Rights. They're very different. And that's why so much effort had to go into it up top. And I think you've said this too, but how you start any enterprise matters a great deal. Absolutely.
Like the foundation of like anytime you start even a sermon series, there will at least be one, maybe two or three messages. Like before we get into this content, we've got to lay the foundation. Yeah.
Because how you start is extremely important. And I like how you say it. You can always recover from a bad start. Like a bad start doesn't mean that you're doomed, but a great start is always going to set you up for success every single time. Absolutely.
An illustration that I've used to Explain this. is a bus, like a transportation bus, like a public transportation. Imagine the United States like a bus. We're all traveling on it, okay? The motor in that bus has to be appropriate.
You cannot put. Another motor. Like a little Volkswagen motor. Yeah, maybe it will come on, and maybe the fans and the radio may come on.
Okay? If you put a van motor in there, maybe it may even move. I don't know. I'm not a mechanic. It's not my area of expertise.
What has happened in America is the founders. Brilliantly, and I believe it was by God's providence, knew that this nation, when they were coming together after the Revolutionary War, how can we put this together? And need people need to go and study that history.
Okay. These were brilliant men, Okay, they were not all born-again solid Christians, but most of them were very. That's right. Somewhere, maybe not. But I would say Majority of them, the vast majority of them were coming from Christian background.
Even those who were not. What we would call Orthodox Christians. Again, I'm not saying Orthodox in the sense of Eastern Orthodox, but just like going down the line of biblical doctrine. For example, John Adams. I wouldn't consider him Believer.
You say, oh, wait a minute. I thought John Adams was and Thomas Jefferson wasn't. I don't know. I think Thomas Jefferson may surprise you. Because John Adams didn't believe in the Trinity, right?
That's right. He was not a Trinitarian. Yeah.
What does that do to Christianity at that point? It sort of dismantles it eventually, down the road. And pretty soon down the road, you're going to come into. Because if he's not Trinitarian, then is Jesus God? Right.
No, not according to him. Oh, yeah. Well, th th I would say Christianity just doesn't exist. Right. And people would say, well, how about Thomas Jefferson?
There are a lot of things we still are learning about Thomas Jefferson. And maybe one day we'll find out maybe a lot of what we believe may not have been true. Benjamin Franklin, I don't know. He claimed to be a deist. But they were still operating from a Judeo-Christian foundation.
How do you think they knew that that was important? Because a lot of people will say they were trying to get away from Christianity in like Britain and in London. They were trying to get away from it. And so that's why they came here to establish this freedom from religion or whatever. I'm using that in air quotes for our radio audience.
But why did they believe that the Bible was still key to America's success?
Well, they were not trying to get away from Christianity. They were trying to get away from a state religion. They were trying to, for example, the pilgrims came here, they had their puritanical mindset that they were going to purify the church. They were going to go somewhere where they could worship according to the dictates of their conscience. Right.
No man should get in the way, no king should get in the way.
So they were still honoring the king, but at the same time in the New England colonies, uh they were coming from a Protestant worldview. Those who came Towards the south, let's say the Tidewater, Virginia area, let's say Roanoke Colony or Jamestown Colony and all the rest that followed in different waves, they were I would say Kind of like Pro-Royalists. In other words, they were not against the crown. Those to the north? Plymouth against the Crown, then overtly, but kind of, you know, in their hearts.
The ones to the south were pro-royalists, they were here to make money. They were cavaliers. But they were Anglicans.
So, one group wanted to purify the church. The other group was like, I think it's fine. Nonetheless, Both were operating from a Protestant worldview. If you go to Plymouth Colony, you will see the first pastor of the Plymouth Colony. This is what he said.
You go down to Jamestown, guess what you find? The first pastor of the these new colonies. In the new land. Pastor? I mean, they're building churches.
Right. Does that mean every person was a born-again saved godly man or woman? No. But they knew that structurally this is what it has to be. They were operating from a Protestant worldview.
Even those who were those colonies that were not overtly, say, Congregationalist like those in the North, or Anglicans as those in the South, they were still from a Protestant worldview. Like The Delaware colonies, okay, we're talking about here: Pennsylvania, New Jersey, all that. Quaker. Quakers Where Still Christians. They were still coming from a Protestant A background?
Those in the Appalachian that we would call the uh you know The Scotch-Irish, maybe, maybe not Scotch-Irish, because that's more towards Ireland side of things. This is more between Scotland and England, the border people. What background did they have? They were Presbyterians. Again Protestants.
Protestants were people who were you know, again, under King Henry, decided to do away with their Allegiance to Rome. No longer are we Roman Catholics, we are Protestant. We're protesting against the church. Nonetheless, all these people who are coming. We're working from a Protestant worldview.
So, also, when it came to the Founding Fathers, they knew because it had already been established even in the colonies before them. It's not like they were like, hey, okay, guys, let's remember back in England how this worked so well. It had already been working in the colonies. Prior to the Declaration of Independence. Absolutely.
Establishing this nation, they knew exactly what they were doing. I guess my question is: you fast forward till now, and I know it's a huge journey, and maybe in the like 10 minutes we have, we can kind of touch on that, or maybe we have to save it for tomorrow's show. But how do we get from then when it's like, okay, we're going to establish this nation on the Bible and Judeo-Christian principles, versus now where it's like we are actively against that in all forms?
Well, I would say we definitely need to go deeper into this matter. Maybe next show we can do somewhat of an in-depth analysis of this. What I would say is Incrementally, we became Um more and more distant From that Protestant worldview. Part of that came because of immigration. And again, I'm an immigrant, so I'm not here to say, hey, immigration is bad or evil.
No, but we need to understand when immigrants do come here, especially if they're coming from a non-Christian worldview background, that they are going to bring their culture. They're going to bring their value system. You mentioned something about that earlier when you said that you were shocked when you came to America. And I don't know if I didn't. follow that thought all the way through because In India Christians were, how were Christians seen?
I know it was like a very minority, but are they like, were people like, hey, Christians are okay, just leave them alone? Or was it like, we need to get rid of Christians in India?
Well, when I was coming up, this is going back to the 70s, 80s. I left India in 1991, okay? In the eighties we could see Over the horizon, that things were going to change. Mom and dad used to talk about that. They would talk about certain nationalist groups who were vying for power.
and they would often say, you know, Our children need to get out. Because this Nation is going to look very different.
So things hadn't gone south, but it was starting to happen. It was beginning to happen. At times, these groups would come to power, but people in India had enough sense to go, no, not that person. We don't want those kind of people because they're going to divide India. They're going to turn Indians against each other.
This is not healthy. This is not good. And so There was always that. But then there were elements there when, if they happened to come in power, definitely they would go after. Non-Hindus.
And they did. And they did. Yeah.
I've I've talked many times about how uh we suffered persecution, like having our power cut off, or at times had a rock thrown into our church window. Not often, not often, because where we lived, there was enough um of of a Understanding of an understanding that, hey, listen, those are Christians, leave them alone, let them do their thing. They're not doing us any harm. Why should we harm them? And we also built a good relationship with the people, like my dad.
People knew him in the community, they knew him in politics, they knew him. In the law enforcement community.
So they kind of respected the church. But we did at times feel persecution. You mentioned that when you came to America, that you were kind of shocked. Was it because it wasn't as Christian in the area you were in as you thought? Um, I noticed that being a Christian was not something that elevated you anymore.
Okay. it almost devalued you. Even in the 90s when you came in the one. I could tell I was like. And I, you know, I'm sitting in a Christian college, right?
And to have people talk about moral relativism and pluralism, and I'm thinking. Who are you afraid of? I mean, are all the Hindus all of a sudden in America going to rise up against you? All the Muslims are rising up. I mean, who are you afraid of?
No, you're afraid of not immigrants, you're afraid of people here who have espoused this anti-Christian Worldview. Like pseudo-intellectuals. Pseudo-intellectuals who have this idea of multiculturalism where you know we're all a melting pot. I didn't realize that was going on in the 90s, in the early 90s. Yeah, the whole melting pot thing was huge.
Wow. Yeah.
Wow. And so there were times, you know, I would go places and, man, you'll have this guy come to me and say, man, I tell you what, I love Indian food. I'm like, oh, no, no. And that's fine. No problem.
I was like, yeah, that's awesome, man. That's great. Great. And I mean, American food is not that good. I'm like, I can go with that.
I was eating college food.
So I was like, yeah, it does stink. All that is fine. But then when that same mindset is taken A step further and how America is not a good nation and America has done a lot of harm in the world.
