We're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and we've got a great episode for you guys today. Continuing a discussion we started last week, something that God has sort of laid on our hearts.
We want to welcome our host to the show, Dr. Abadan Shah. Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.
Shah, welcome. Thank you, Sudi. Thank you, and good to see you guys as well. Good to see you as well. We want to continue this discussion that we were talking about last week.
We kind of went back and forth on whether we wanted to talk about this or not, but we felt like, and I know, Dr. Shah, you agree with me, that this was something that we really wanted to sort of confront. Yes, yes. And we received a lot of messages from people, text messages and emails asking us our view on this subject. Yes.
And so we felt like something should be said. And thank you guys for being willing to jump in on this. Absolutely. Absolutely. We're witnessing a troubling shift in the rhetoric of some public speakers, some public figures.
Specifically, today we're talking about Candace Owens. There's this very much this real push toward anti-Semitism, this being against God's people, being against the nation of Israel. And just the way that she's speaking about things and the way that she's kind of confronting different issues online, it's troubling. It's not good to see. Yeah, it's extremely dangerous.
At one time, Candace Owens was very widely respected among conservative Christians, conservative evangelicals. And what we were seeing, I thought, through this past few years were anti-Semitism on the left, on college campuses, universities, Free Palestine, all that stuff. It's troubling now to see it among.
Someone who I thought at one point was very well respected among conservatives and who had conservative biblical values, but now is showing, I mean, really blatant anti-Semitism. Right. Unapologetic anti-Semitism. Right. And the previous video we, or show, podcast, radio show, whatever you want to call it, we talked about Tucker Carlson and that interview he had with Ted Cruz where he was sort of, you know, wasn't a very pleasant one to watch.
I mean, it's like I watched it once, I can watch it again because it was so the personality that he displayed was so, I don't know how to say it. It just did not make me feel good. It was very, it was very pretentious. Yeah. Very trolly.
Like the answer was very obvious to Tucker Carlson and it should be obvious to Ted Cruz. Right. So there's really not point having a discussion. Very anti-Semitism. I don't care which side of the issue somebody comes down on.
I mean, of course, I do care. Don't get me wrong. I do want the right issue to prevail. Of course, we all do. We want our view to be the right one.
But how you um conduct that interview makes a difference because either you can do it in a respectful manner or you can do it in a very disrespectful, arrogant way. And it just was A lot of people said it just did not make them feel good. I agree. And the subject was, again, about Israel. The question that was, was Israel right in doing what it's doing and you know, fighting against Iran?
And Of course, Tucker Carlson pur purposely was goading Ted Cruz. But then On the heels of that came the Candace Owens video. Yes. So one of the things we talked about, we showed that clip on the last episode on the Tucker Carlson video, and there was another. Clip that you said, hey, I want to address this clip, and it was Candace Owens.
We just didn't have time to do it.
So, if we want to watch it now, we can sort of watch that clip, which begins with Tucker Carlson and then has Candace Owens reacting to it. Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one. Because biblically we're commanded to support Israel. But number two, hold on.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. You're a senator, and now you're throwing out theology, and I am a Christian, and I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel. We are commanded to support Israel.
And we're what does that mean, Israel? We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed. But what, hold on, define Israel. This is important. Are you kidding?
This is this majority Christian country. Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked like 49 questions about.
So that's what Genesis refers to. That's what God is talking about. The nation of Israel, yes. And he's so is that the current borders, the current leadership? He's talking about the political entity called Israel.
He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yet, nations exist, and he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel. He's referring to in Genesis. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now?
Yes. Yes. It is. And I'm really happy he said that because when you hear it, you realize how ridiculous it sounds. Even if you're not following the theology, if you don't identify as a Christian, you realize that you have a senator that is sitting across saying that his number one reason, he didn't say one of the reasons, said my number one reason that I support Israel is because the Bible commands me to do so.
And just so you know, the Bible does not command, and this is what Tucker Carlson is getting to in that clip, it absolutely does not command you to support the modern state of Israel. Like Genesis is pointing to the modern 1948 created state of Israel, and you must support it despite the fact that it is. Very much involved in what can only be described as demonic behavior since it's creation, right? And so you're going to ignore every other biblical passage. You're going to misinterpret this one.
It's a dispensationalist heresy, dispensationalist heresy, which was factually funded by the World Zionist Congress. And we can do another episode on that as I present to you guys all of the evidence that what so let's pause it there. I don't know where to begin. It's so. Wrong on so many levels.
So, one of the reasons, yes, you're right. One of the reasons that I say Dr. Shah has a PhD in New Testament textual criticism at the top of every show is to avoid things like this. Tucker Carlson and I think Candace Owens are under the impression because I'm a Christian with a microphone, I get to talk hermeneutics. I get to talk theology because I believe I'm a Christian and I have a platform.
And also say things authoritatively without backing them up. Like, I'm just going to throw these buzzwords in there and then just gloss over them so you're going to assume that I know what I'm talking about. Like, yes, that intro has a nice cadence to it, but there's a reason that I say you have a PhD in textual criticism. Let's begin with the word heresy. Be careful, Candace.
In throwing that word around because that's a good way to label somebody and then be done with it. Dispensationalism may be a view you don't agree with. I am not a dispensationalist. Yep. Because I support Israel, that does not make me a dispensationalist.
How interesting is that? Have you thought about that? No, apparently you didn't because you got your talking point maybe online, or maybe a few guys, we know who they are, who are quite vocal on this issue, coming from covenant theology, and they slam dispensationalism. And that's fine. Slam away.
I have no problem with that. But be careful when you call that a heresy. Right. There's a different thing, there's a different meaning for heresy. It doesn't just mean a view that you disagree with.
Right, right. Right. Okay. Jehovah's Witness, heresy. Mormonism, heresy.
Oneness Pentecostalism, heresy. There are reasons to call something a heresy. Then there are times you have to go, yeah, I don't agree with that, and it has repercussions. But I won't call that person a heretic or that view a heresy. It might be theologically incorrect, right?
But it doesn't make it heresy. Yeah, so she needs to get some educated. What lands something in that category of being labeled as a heresy? I mean, for example, let's go to some of the primary doctrines like Trinity. Right.
Right?
Okay, if you are, if you're having a problem, by the way, sometimes some of the prayers you hear in church, you go, oh, that's a heresy. Father, thank you for dying on the cross for us. I'm like, Holy Spirit, thank you for just creating the Son. Yeah, it's like, oh, no, that's giving us your Son. No, that does not work like that.
I mean, so people make mistakes, and you don't immediately stop them and say, now you, you are a heretic. Let's burn him at the stake after church. Throw out stones in the middle of service and just start chucking up. Yeah, you help people. But that's right.
But we all know, you know, one God in three persons: Father, Son, Spirit, three, and yet one. Different, same essence. different roles, right? We get it. The word of God is the Bible, right?
That's that's Primary doctrine, inspiration is the God-breathed. It's inerrant, inspired word of God.
Now, what if somebody says, oh, I have a different. view on inerrancy, would I immediately call that person a heretic? Guess what? I won't. I think you might be on the liberal side of things.
But would I call FF Bruce a heretic? No, I'm not going to do that. Would I call C.S. Lewis a heretic? No, I won't.
Okay, so you have to be careful. What I call, there are some people.
Okay, let's go with RC Sproll. Who would support the covenant view against dispensationalism? But also flirted with annihilationism, right? I mean, some of the things that they believed in, you go. Uh, I don't know about that, yeah, right?
Uh, and and some praetorism happening there that Jesus already came 2,000 years ago. Oh, that comes close to being weird, right? But I won't call that person a heretic. I call that very dangerous theology.
So You know, be careful how you throw those words around. This is also just a bad argument because Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens are asking us, not us specifically, but they're asking the other side to disprove something that is established. And what I mean by that is it should go without saying that when God says, bless Israel, support Israel, there's no reason for me to assume that he doesn't mean modern Israel. They're saying, no, no, no, obviously he doesn't.
Okay, well, where's the evidence that he no longer expects us to stand Israel? He meant something different in Genesis than he means there. Oh, there is no evidence of that. It's just obvious. Let me ask them a question.
Was there ever an Israel? Was there ever an Israel? Yeah. Because if you go by a strict definition that a group of people moved around and were very strictly defined and no, go to Egypt, they were worshipping false gods. They were living among the people.
They didn't want to leave. There was a mixed multitude, which means they were intermarrying with the Egyptians. If Candace were time travel back in those days, she would have trouble defining Israel then. Right. So let me ask you a question.
Do you would you be able to tell us what Israel is back then? Let's go down 4,000 years. Let's try 3,000 years. Let's try the time of Jesus because only two tribes are left, right? Judah and Benjamin got sort of submerged in the other tribe, and Levites, you know, they're there too.
That's the other tribe that was sort of spared.
So. Do you think in the time of Jesus Israel was there?
So, when was Israel there? And that's one of the things that I've never heard a clear answer to from either of these two guys is why does God supposedly mean something different in Genesis 12 than he does now?
Well, is it is I mean going on left field here? Is it because they want uh an excuse to be able to gripe against the modern state of Israel? Of course, yeah, yeah. I mean, and it has been coming for several hundred years. All right.
So Jewish people lost their homeland, right? About second century AD. Right?
They were kicked out of Jerusalem. Jerusalem becomes Aelia Capitolina and then killed kicked out of Israel. completely. And so they wander around Europe, especially Eastern Europe, and then move towards Western Europe. And they were there were people who were very invested in the local community wherever they were, but they maintained their own traditions.
They maintain their so-called faith. And again, I don't call that Christianity because they rejected the Messiah. But Paul talked about this in Romans 9, 10, 11. That there is a veil before their eyes. Means as a people.
as a people plural They're not coming. Together to Christ. But individually they were being saved. I mean, case in point, the first apostles. Case in point?
Paul, individually, they're being saved. And throughout the history of the church, individually, many, many, many people from Jewish background or Hebrew background got saved. Praise God for that. But collectively, as a nation, as a people, no, they weren't, and they were scattered. Mm-hmm.
People got to the point, like case in point, Martin Luther. that like he's like writing things against the jewish people And That line should not have been crossed. Yes, it was frustrating, but they went a step further to say, okay, then we're just going to do away with you or drive you out of our community or put you in ghettos. And that's where the history becomes very sour. This argument, too, shows a really low view of the sovereignty of God.
Because if God is removed from time and God superseded the authorship of the Bible and God is in control of the rise and fall of nations. Don't we think that when God said those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed, that that Israel would apply throughout history? If God is removed from the timeline, don't we think that he would be able to carry that command through? Yeah, absolutely. This mixing of the people groups, like you're talking about, is actually one of the more underhanded arguments that Candace Owen uses.
And what I mean by that is she has gone on record saying that the president of Israel, Netanyahu, is more of an anti-Semite than she is because he kills Palestinians. And Palestinians are, this is another one of those Tucker Carlson things. Like, remember, guys, Palestinians are Semites.
So he's anti-Semitic. That's one of the things. I had a clip of her saying that. I didn't include it in this lineup. But everybody knows when we say, hey, that's anti-Semitic.
We're not talking about Palestinians. We're not talking about it. We understand. You could be technically correct, but this word is understood what it means.
Well, they are basically revealing that same. Hatred or that anger towards the Jewish people, like some like Luther and others, had, which was. You know, why are they not converting? Why are they they this they're still doing things? That we know point to Christ.
Okay, yeah, I get it. Talk to other Jewish people who are Christians. Talk to the messianic Jewish people, and they will tell you the same frustration they have. Why are our brothers and our sisters not coming to Christ? But then Paul says it, you know, there's a veil before their eyes.
Let it go. Pray for them. That's why I like Robert Murray McShane, who was a Scottish preacher. I mean, he made it one of his goals to witness to the people of Israel, the Jewish people. This is before 1948.
I mean, it's going back to the early 1800s. It was a big part of his ministry reaching Jewish people.
So. Reach them. That's right. Be friendly towards them. Share the gospel with them.
But what if there are some who are controlling the media or very liberal in their behavior and policies and social Marxist or whatever? Yeah, we get it.
Okay, what do you do with that?
Well, don't hate all Jewish people for that. Yeah. How about you pray for them? Put forth good argument for the other side. Yeah.
Yeah. That's one. That's actually one of her. Do you want to play that fourth clip? Because that's actually one of her main arguments: is that Jewish people, there are Jewish people who do bad things.
Okay. Yeah, sure. There are Indian people who do bad things. People always say, like, man, I tell you, I've never, Indians are so smart. I'm like, thank you.
The dumb ones, we tell them, go home. When they're trying to come to America, it's like, where are you going? Oh, I'm going to America. No, you're not. Going back.
But it sounds, I'm just kidding. That's not true. But you're right, though. It sounds like a good argument when you frame it like this right here.
Okay. And to the people who really do believe that God's chosen people rape, murder, destroy, pillage, lie, deceive, blackmail Jeffrey Epstein, all of our politicians, buy, purchase. Threaten, manipulate. Goodness, you may really want to crack open a Bible if you think that those are the signs of God's chosen people. Yeah, no.
Let me just take a little bit nauseating hearing her. What a silly, silly woman. Can I say that? Yeah, yeah, of course. It's Christian radio, so I wouldn't go into a part of that.
What makes the Bible so amazing, right? What makes it so amazing that it never glorifies its heroes. That's exactly right. It always lays it out. David.
It says right before that the thing that David did displeased God. Oh my goodness. And then David is on his face before God, fasting, not eating, and the child dies. And this is God's judgment. I mean, it's it's How it deals with his heroes.
And that's David, the king over God's chosen people. You can tell she does not read the Bible. I mean, she's saying, crack open a Bible because this is how God's chosen people don't act like this. It's like the Old Testament is about them. Like, read the book of Judges.
If you read the book of Judges, that's like you would read Judges and saying, they must not be God's chosen people because they're acting bad. Guess what? Guess what? Surprise. If I was then, I would say, God picked someone else.
Right. I don't want to be a chosen one. We can't handle it. Her saying crack open a Bible to me is the icing on the cake because it's like they act bad in the scriptures more than they act good. That's the point of the story.
10 tribes gone, right? I mean, in the end, God's going to bring them back. Find a perfect nation. Find a perfect nation, and we'll make them God's chosen people. It doesn't exist.
Perfect nations don't exist. There are Jewish people who commit sins before God. Therefore, they can't be like, dude, I can tell you this. I might not have raped or murdered or blackmailed people, but I certainly don't deserve to be a Christian. You know what I'm saying?
For me, it's all about the grace of God. Amen. Amen. Sin doesn't exempt you from being God's chosen people. What does it mean to be chosen by God, Dr.
Jesus? Good point. I mean, listen to the Bible itself. You know, God talks about that. And it's amazing.
Oh, my goodness. I wish we had like two hours to talk about this. I don't think she's worthy of that. But, anyways, I'm upset because she's speaking with so much authority. Yeah.
God himself tells The people, your father talking about Abraham, was a Syrian. I mean The people who were feeling proud in their pedigree of being descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God tells them, your father was Assyrian. I mean, this is how God dealt with his people. You know, being his chosen ones is not all that is cracked up to be. That's right.
That's right. It was dealing with discipline called out for every sin. Imagine, like, like your son, right? An average kid running around on the streets.
Okay. He i compared To your son, I mean, he's a happy kid. Yeah. Your son has to listen. Their son uh has to be disciplined by you.
So, oh my goodness. It seems on the surface wow. You know, it's all wonderful. No, he has to obey you. He has to listen to you.
When he gets out of line, you correct him.
So also with the Jewish people throughout the history, or the people of Israel, or the Hebrews, God corrected them again and again. I mean, right before they enter into the promised land, the entire generation dies in the wilderness. God said, they will not enter my rest. What are you talking about?
So to use that as an argument that all Jewish people are bad For one, I mean, and I hope, I hope, especially if you carry a PhD, should not be following that line of argument. Right. That Look at how bad these people are. Wait, the Bible is full of them and they're calling themselves out. God is calling them out, God is sending them prophets.
to call them out. That's part of being God's chosen one. It's not all that is correct. That's exactly right. Well, I'm glad to hear you say that.
I'm glad to hear you take the time to explain this because I feel like there's a lot of people who have kind of bought into following after Candace Owens and kind of promoting her and listening to the things that she has to say. I mean, she's a trusted name for many people and many conservative people.
So, to hear you break it down as to what we as believers should think about the nation of Israel and how we should respond to these things, I think is helpful for me. And I respect a lot about you: we are not conservatives for the sake of being conservative. We stand on values. That's why, like, even with Candace Owens, people are like, hey, listen, and there's a clip if we want to play. I don't know if we have time, but there's people who have said, Hey, would you at least just disavow anti-Semites?
And she says, verbatim, no, I will not. I get called slurs all the time. I'm not going to, this is the internet. Grow up. I'm not going to come on here and disavow any anti-Semites.
Then she must be anti-Semitic. Oh, exactly. Anyways, the. Problem with her is I would say She's opportunistic because right now her career is not flying as well. Yeah, her career really began because NAACP supported her, right?
I mean, they propped her up and then she kicked them to the curb and then you know became very conservative, which is great. Hey, welcome. We would love to have you stand for what's right and great. But then your sun is setting, so all of a sudden you had to kick start it. Yes.
And of course, you'll have some people in the theological realm who support that way of theology, which is like what Tucker Carlson was saying. Why do you think that nation over there in the Middle East run by Nathan Yahoo is the one that Genesis? We can talk more. We can talk more. don't make such pithy statements.
And think you're winning. The argument. Yeah. You can't present a fact and pretend it's obvious, and therefore you're right. Yeah.
What's happened over the past four years because that tactic. is the tactic that we've had to deal with where I want to be loud. And I'm going to call you names. That's right. And I'm going to do this and that.
No, sometimes to explain these issues, like Ted Cruz was trying to do. It takes time. Yes. Yes, that's right.
So, I mean, his answer is actually correct because the Bible tells us to do that. You mean that nation?
Okay, if you really want us to lay it out, we can do that. We can follow. Genesis and go all the way down to the book of Revelation, help you understand why we believe. And what does that mean? But you're just immediately firing back, trying to silence us.
And now That's not That's not mature scholarship. That's right. And we're not going to play by those rules because we don't have to. We don't have to. And I think an encouragement to remember is that at the end of the day, Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens and others who espouse this, even especially on the conservative side, at the end of the day, they're two people.
They're influential, but they are not going to make an impact on. I think they're in the minority. You know what I mean? And the reason we're doing this show is because we want you to know that there is. an alternate view, which is, yes, it is biblical.
And yes, it is held by a lot of smart people. It is helped by a lot of educated people. It is helped by people who understand politics. And no, it's not so easy to discard it. Right.
Yeah. That's a great point. It's troubling because I don't want this and maybe you can speak to this in the five minutes that we have left, Dr. Shah. I don't want this to be indicative or to imply an anti-Semitic movement on the right.
I would like to think that these two people are just kind of Nut jobs on the fringes of conservatism. Yeah. Anti-Semitism has been there. I mean, it's been there for several hundred years. And it unfortunately has infiltrated theology at times.
Unfortunately, it has been demonstrated by people we admire otherwise. Right. You know, I mentioned Martin Luther's name. Yeah, we admire them for great things they did. And then at that point, you go, oh, no.
No, I cannot go with that. No, that's wrong. That's wrong. And so we have to speak out. And we have to explain to people and say, no, That that is not correct.
And biblically, you should stand with Israel. And All these other arguments that people are bringing up, you know, about Nathan Yahoo doing this, or was October 7th, was the idea aware of it, and all of those kind of things that are thrown in there. A lot of guesswork.
Okay. Was the idea of aware? I don't know. They didn't tell me. We weren't in talks.
Do you have a paper trail that says here is awareness? No, we don't know any of that. But let's say let's say they were aware.
Well The people still came across the border and killed and raped. And kidnap people, okay?
So whether you leave your front door open doesn't matter. The murderer should not come into your door and kill your family, anyways. And even if you said, Let's just say that you're correct, and let's say there are corrupt politicians in the Jewish, in Israel's government. Guess what? That doesn't mean they're not God's chosen people.
And that doesn't mean that Christians should not support them. Right. And I love what one of my friends in Israel loves to say: we've got our scums. He's Jewish. He says that.
He's like, Don't get me wrong. We have our scums. And I was like, I agree. That's right. Yes, we do.
We all do. But that does not mean that then, based off that, you can go with whatever you want to say and do away with the Jewish people. Come on. What is this? That's ridiculous.
That's right. I mean, thank goodness that people don't look at any one of us as a proof text for Christianity and say, well, all Christians, because that person messed up, all Christians at all times are just Americans. They're corrupt politicians in America.
So never support Americans.
Well, that's what they do, don't they? I mean, a lot of times you ask people, it's like, have you voted, you know, voted in the primary or in the election? No, no. I tell you what, I'm sick and tired of politicians. Then why are you complaining?
Try to fix your country. Try to fix your vocation. Yeah, go for it. Make your voice heard. Do that's establish some positive change.
So, overall, I would say to people: don't buy into such rhetoric. Don't buy into people who talk like this. Just know that there is. An alternate view, which is very biblically based, it's reasoned, it Does look at current events and it looks at them objectively and it looks at them historically. And no, we're not dispensationalist.
I'm not a dispensationalist. Neither am I a covenant.
So there are other views. I mean, like, there's a great book out there: perspectives on Israel and the church: four views. Right?
I mean, it sounds like a great, great book. It's like, oh, okay, there you go. That's the one we need to read. Guess what the four views are? traditional covenant Covenantal view, traditional dispensational view, progressive dispensational view, progressive covenantal view.
Well, y'all are still keeping that dispensational covenant categories. Could there not be another one? Different views, but very closely linked.
So I mean, two of them kind of pair off. I mean, so I'm like, no, that still doesn't cover me. That's true. And many, many others like me. That's right.
Exactly. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes. And you can always support us financially at clearviewtodayshow.com. John, what are you going to close with today? Getting closer and closer to 20,000 views. I think at the time of recording this, we're sitting at 17,000.
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