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Now let's get started. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and what an episode we have for you guys today.
Welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We are here live and in person, not really live, but kind of as live as we can. We are in person though. We're in person. Like I can touch this guy right now.
I know he wishes I wasn't. I'm not an apparition. But we are here with our host with the most from Coast to Toast.
Coast to Toast. I did it again. I was watching our guests on the screen and they distracted me. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Abbadan Shah, who is a Ph.D. and New Testament textual criticism professor at Carolina University, author, full time pastor and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here and it's good to have, I would say, quickly becoming one of my good friends is Pastor Duane Green here. Duane Green, give it up. Welcome to the show.
I feel like I should bow. I love that you wore the signature purple shirt. We were just talking about that.
I did when online signature. That's right. Now, where did you land on purple? I you know what? I don't. I just a shirt. I had my closet and I think I was wearing it on one of my live streams and someone said, you look good in that. And I was like, oh, cool. So I should just wear the shirt. I think about what I have to wear. I have no that's real.
There's no deep spiritual meaning to it. It's just it happened to be in the right place at the right time. Guys get complimented so rarely, like genuinely complimented so rarely.
Like I had one time I had a girl tell me, you know, you're not that ugly. I rode that for like five years. That's too funny. Dr. Shah, it's good to see you.
Duane Green. Great. Glad to have you.
Wonderful to have you on the show. Amen. Today's verse of the day is coming to us from First Thessalonians 523. We like to start every episode with the word of God. Now, may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This verse is really in line with what we've been talking about in your message series, Dr. Shah, End Times Prophecy and how we're thinking about how our life now impacts our understanding of the end of time. Amen. Amen.
Pastor Duane, jump in, say a few words on the verse of the day. All right. This is a good one.
This is a good one. All right. So in it, you have spirit, soul and body, all encapsulated in this one idea to be kept blameless. And that is that for those listening that God is sanctifying you.
Right. You go back to chapter four and it tells us that the will of God for us is to sanctify us. This is God's will for you, even your sanctification.
And so if you're questioning what your will, what God's will is for your life, start there. Start with your sanctification. Amen. That's it. And then here it's God who is doing the sanctifying completely. Spirit, soul, body, justification, sanctification, glorification, all wrapped up in one nice bow for you as God's gracious gift to you.
So, yeah, think on that. That's a that's a beautiful thing. Amen. Beautiful, beautiful. And I knew I could count on him.
I mean, I've heard him before. I was like, I'm not going to take this one. I'm going to let our guest handle it and handle it beautifully. Yes, absolutely. And that's that's the assurance. That's an assurance that he who began a good work and you will complete it until the day of Christ. And that sanctification is that good work. Amen. That's right.
That's right. Pastor Dwayne, I want to tell you, you were the first person ever outside of this room. You are the first to join us on one of our favorite games. This is a game that I don't know if I invented it, but I'd love to take I would love to take credit for this. This game is called Proverb or Naver. Have you talked to the Copyright Office yet?
I have talked to the Patent Office. They escorted me out. So Proverb or Naver. Here's what's going to happen. I have a collection of biblical proverbs right in front of me.
OK. A few of them are fake courtesy of our friend Chat GPT. I'm going to go to each of us in turn and I'm going to give you it. I'm going to give you up the proverb and you just let me know if you think it's a proverb or if it's a Naver. I'm going to start.
I'm going to start with Dr. Shah. OK. Let your foot be seldom in your neighbor's house, lest he have his fill of you and hate you. I think that's a proverb. That is a proverb. That is Proverbs 25, 17. OK. OK. Pastor Dwayne, I've got to tell you about the cash reward at the end of this.
Whoever gets the money. Oh, OK. OK. All right, Ryan, this one's yours. All right. The wise man builds with whispers, the fool shouts and scatters his stones.
Builds with whispers, the fool shouts and scatters his stones. Yep. Uh, Naver. That's a Naver.
Yeah, that's fake. All right. Pastor Dwayne, this one's coming at you.
Good saints makes one slow to anger and it is his glory to overlook an offense. That's a proverb. That is Proverbs 1911. Nice. All right, Dr. Shah.
OK. The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy. Proverb. That is a proverb. Proverbs 14, 10. Ryan, do you see a man skillful in his work? He will stand before kings.
He will not stand before obscure men. Proverb. Proverbs 22, 29. By the way, that that was the proverb my dad told me again and again when I was growing up. It's like, hey, work at your at the task God calls you.
This is before I was calling the ministry. He said, whatever you do, work at it with everything you have because God wants to use you. Amen. And you need to be good at what you're doing. Amen.
By his grace. Right. So. So, yeah, I know that one really well. That's a good one.
That's one of my favorites as well. All right. Pastor Dwayne, this one's for you. A quiet heart drinks deeply, but a noisy fool spills every drop. Oh, that's hard. That's a hard one. It sounds like a proverb, but A.I.
can do a lot of styles. Right. I'm going to say this is a no verb. It is a no verb. Yes.
Correct. That is it's hard. It's hard to play this game with smart people, especially smart people who know the Bible. All right, Dr. Shop. There are those who are clean in their own eyes but are not washed of their filth.
I would say no verb. That's a proverb. Is it really?
With 30, 12. Wow. There are those who are clean in their own eyes but are not washed of their filth.
Yeah, that one sounds fake. Sometimes. No offense to the word of God. Sometimes, Chad, GPT can, uh, can, can trip you. Yeah. All right, Ryan.
Ryan, this one's yours. The fallow ground of the poor would yield much food, but is swept away through injustice. No verb. That's a proverb.
Proverbs 13, 23. Man. All right. Last one. Pastor Dwayne, this is for you. This is for the $50,000 cash prize. All right.
Waiting for it in the mail. Whoever whispers with his eyes is plotting deceit. He who bites his lip brings ruin. That's a proverb. That's a not verb. No, that's a not verb.
That is AI generated. Whoever whispers with his eyes is plotting deceit. He who bites his lip brings ruin. Wait a minute. So did we all tie? We all tied. Yeah, everybody got all wrong.
I was hoping Pastor Dwayne would win this one. I was hoping to. All close. Yeah. I think our AI is getting smarter.
Yeah. It's learning our, it's learning our patterns. He who bites his lip brings ruin. Shout out to Kristen Stewart for that.
That's Proverb or not verb. Pastor Dwayne, you were the first guest to ever join us on that game. Congratulations.
That's a fun one. Thank you for playing with us. I'm honored.
I'm honored. Proverb or not verb. Proverb or not verb merch coming very soon. Coming very, very soon. What if we see the hat and the t-shirt?
What would you do if you saw the Dwayne Green online YouTube or Proverb or not verb shirts? I'd love it. I would love it. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. That's funny.
Very cool. We talk about, you know, knowing the Bible and we talk about knowing God's word and it's fun to play games like that, but it's important for us to actually dig into what God's word says and apply it to our lives. And I mean, I can't think of two better men to have a conversation with about what it looks like to really dig into kind of the scholarly work of studying the Bible and textual criticism and what that looks like, how that impacts our faith as believers. Yeah. How did this meeting of the minds come to be Dr. Shah?
Like how did we end up here today? So a few years ago, maybe two, three years ago, I was talking to my mentor, Dr. Maurice Robinson, and we talk about textual criticism and different people talking about it out there in the social media world or blog sites. And he said, oh, you need to look into this Dwayne Green. He's good. He knows his stuff. And I said, Dwayne Green. I remember him from, from my Southeastern year.
He's like, no, no, no, he's not from there, but he is, he's, he's doing good work. I said, okay, I'll look him up. And I did. And, and I saw some of your videos that you had made and I was like, wow, that's very good.
Because sometimes you have guys talking about manuscripts and textual criticism and you can tell either they are just, for lack of a better term, regurgitating what they picked up here and there, or they really know their, their stuff. And so I, after a few, few times, I was like, yeah, I told Dr. Robinson, I said, yeah, that he's good. And, and then I think back in January, I believe we connected if I'm not wrong or was it? Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so we said, no, we're going to have you on our show and, and hopefully one day I'll be on yours as well. We had talked about that as well.
That's right. Cool. So how did this text criticism journey start for you?
Like, was it just something you were always interested in or is it something that you learned to love over time? Like how did, how'd the whole thing start? Yeah, so, so there's a little bit of a backstory to that. Now, first off, right?
I'm not like, I'm not technically trained in the area of text criticism, so I consider myself more a text critical enthusiast than an academic. So, I mean, it, I don't have to bear the weight of that. Right. So was, so was, who was it? Trigellus, wasn't it? Who was not technically trained? Who was that? Um, William Pierpont wasn't.
Yeah, he wasn't either. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so in this field you'd be surprised. Yeah.
Yeah. But yeah, so how I got started in there was actually through a King James version of onlyism. When I, when I first became a believer, I got saved at this event that happened basically in my backyard. So there was a school and they opened up their gymnasium. We're up in Canada.
So the fact that a public school would open up their building for a Christian thing was a big deal. So we went there, I got saved there. My buddies next to me, they're like, yeah, you know what? I'm going to heaven. I'm going to heaven.
Here I am. I'm thinking I'm going to hell all by myself. And so I jumped on the bandway and got saved. And so it took a while from the time I got saved to the time I started attending church. My family were unbelievers at the time, still are, mostly. But they didn't particularly like the idea of going to church, but you know, this thing in the school was just kind of like a cool event, right? So a few years later found myself in a fundamentalist Baptist church. And they were really, it wasn't a terrible, I know that people hear fundamentalist Baptist church and they think, oh no, you know, that's terrible, cult-like.
But it really wasn't. I really gained an appreciation for the word of God at this church. And they would teach us to read and to read in context and to memorize the scripture.
They're huge on memorization. But of course they were King James Version only. And so what happened from there is I kind of began to notice the differences between the King James Version and some of the other more modern translations, specifically the NIV. Because, you know, this was like late 90s, early 2000s when I was really starting to get into this. And I remember having a discussion with a friend and I remember them pointing into the NIV and saying, hey, this whole verse isn't in the NIV.
Why is it in the King James Version? And that kind of got things rolling. I can't remember what the verse was or anything. I just remember that's what got it rolling. And so I remember getting a Texas Receptus set from my brother. And this is really interesting because my brother, he wasn't a believer at the time.
I think he's starting to warm up to the idea of God and Jesus. But at the time, he bought me a Texas Receptus set, the JP Green ones, you know, the interlinear. And I remember him saying, I researched it and I got this one because the other ones were all bad. And of course, he's not a believer.
It's like, how do you know that? But he got me a Texas Receptus set. Now, of course, I think the TR is probably a lot closer to the originals than the current critical text. But I would hold more to a Byzantine position, which Dr. Shah, you're probably really familiar with that.
But yeah, so anyway, I remember looking at this discussion. And even I never really was a King James version onlyist but came pretty close to being one. But anyway, so it's this whole discussion that led me to the place where I was like, you know what, I'm going to learn Greek. And so I purchased a bunch of material. I got some books, Mounts, Wallace, Robertson. I got like a random Dana Manti grammar from a garage sale found this random Greek New Testament from the Goodwill.
And I just read and I've anything I found online that was Greek Koine Greek, I read it and read it and learned as much as I could. And what was interesting to you is I used to work at a print shop. So a major insurance company. So rather than farming out their printing, they actually had a print shop. And so we would we would print things. So here I am learning about scribes while being a modern scribe myself. So I often joke to think that the scribes who copied the scriptures would probably get a really good kick at seeing control C control V. Yeah. Mind blown entire industry destroyed my entire life.
My life just done in two keystrokes. Yeah. But anyway, so my job was at the time was to just pack the books up and then ship them out. It would be another year before I moved into actually running the printers.
Wow. And there will be some down downtime between ships that you know, the, the books would come off, you'd pack them up, and then you'd wait for the next book. So I'd have my, my cards there. And I would be reading these phrases in Greek.
And my colleagues would be looking at me kind of like he's weird talking to himself. But, but I, I learned enough Greek, to be able to see things and to understand stuff, you know, you translate one john, because it's the easiest book in the New Greek New Testament. Right. And then so we got there. Luke in Hebrew still scares me. Abaddon's laughing because he knows.
Yes. But yeah, so so I learned the language to the point where I was able to work with the Greek New Testament, and an opportunity came up to help Dr. Wilbur Pickering with his family 35 texts. And so I basically took his, I think it was like an ASCII character code.
There were no accents or anything. And I redid everything in Unicode so that it could be formatted a lot nicer and stuff. And part of that involved a proofreading. So I read through the entire family 35. And it took me about two years from the time we started to the time we finished and the publishing of the second edition.
By the way, just to interject there, that book, identity of the New Testament text, it's an excellent book, if especially for those who want to know why Byzantine, like, why are you, you know, now, you may not agree with everything in the book, but I promise you, you will learn a lot. And you will realize, oh, that's why. And I highly recommend it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So yeah, anyway, so that that's kind of like, how I got started. And then the YouTube channel, I just started. I mean, I had one for like, 10 or 12 years, 14 years now, actually, time has gone by. Oh, man. Yeah, my first couple of videos, if you go back, right, like to the 14 year mark, you can see where I'm like trying to converse in Koine Greek, talking about the weather, talking about, you know, my dog, and all of these things. And it's terrible. I go back there and I'm like, but I left it there.
Just just nothing more cringe than going back and looking at old videos. Trust me. That's right. But what you were trying to do, I think that that works when you when you talk in Greek, and when you begin to converse that way. Yes. Oh, my goodness. I mean, I wish you could do that with first year Greek students tell them to do that it will take them from here to here.
It's really helpful if you know what you're doing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yes. You see the people kind of struggling to get the vocabulary struggling to get the alphabet down, right, but to do what Pastor Duane was talking about. I mean, that that's different.
It would help them a lot. It takes time. Yeah. But once you do that, it's very helpful. Yeah, well, one of the big things that I found really helpful was there was this website. So back in the days of the BB bulletins, right?
The forums, there's there's a place that's still active today, actually, it's called text kit. And so it's about Latin and Greek learning. And there's a section in there for composition. So you could go in there and compose some Greek. And there were active people in there who would respond in Greek. And so you could have these like, communications in in written Greek.
And so that was really helpful. One of the things that we talk about a lot on the show is the state of textual criticism, because it's changed, right? Like when Dr. Jha, in fact, your your dissertation begins that I mean, the entire dissertation is about how it's changed, how the purpose of it has changed. In the 60s, you know, everybody was trying to get to the original text.
Now it feels as though and maybe you can you can you can shed some light on this, either they feel like that's impossible, we're not going to try it, or it's possible, but we just don't care about it anymore. Yeah, I would say in the 60s, it sort of was there. But then over the years, I would say in the past three decades, there's been a shift. And Pastor Dwayne, you want to comment on that?
Or what's your take on it? Yeah, well, it's interesting, because I read your book, by the way, excellent book, changing changing the goalposts. I think I promoted it on the channel. Yes, you did.
And thank you so much. Good read. So they're actually I wasn't aware of this, but there are two schools of thought as far as this, this change of the goalposts. And the one Abaddon is what you write about the book that it's it's kind of like a degradation, in that some of the more popular text critics, Epp and Parker and Ehrman, they kind of suggest, well, you know, there's no possibility of getting back to the exact original text. And so what we'll do is we'll settle for, you know, the oldest possible archetype, the oldest possible script we can put together. And so, in that sense, they sort of forsaken the possibility of getting back to the original, where as, you know, as a believer, as a Christian who believes in preservation, and who believes that God superintends the process of copying and all these sorts of things.
I don't think that's a tenable position for, for, you know, a Christian to hold on to. And what's interesting, right, is if you take a look at modern critical methodologies, again, I don't want to be careful here, right, because I have a lot of friends who are, you know, modern text critics, and, and I don't want to disparage them anymore. But when you when you look at how the critical text is put together, some of the processes, some of the canons, you can almost understand why someone might think, well, we can't possibly get back to the original. Because there's a lot of like subjective decision making. And one one of my proofs for suggesting this is an issue is if you, if you compare the Nestle Allen 28, or the 27, I think, with the SPL edition, I think there's more than like 700 differences between the two, which goes to show that these modern critical methodologies, they don't answer the question in every single place, right. But if you go to something like the majority text, or the Byzantine text form, you compare the two.
Now, I had someone run me the numbers right to do the comparisons. And aside from Revelation, we'll just put that one aside for now, because that's a whole other textual animal, right? From Matthew to Jude, there was less than 200 differences between the majority text and the Byzantine text. And so so for me, and I mean, the types of differences there are, you know, maybe it's a tense of a verb, maybe it's an article, many of them are like the differences between the spelling of names, like David with a Vita or David with an epsilon.
For me, that cements that that specific thing. And that makes me look at the coherence of the Byzantine family manuscripts and says to me, the original is possible and the original is here. That's right.
So I think that's a difference between the methodologies and how they lend to that sort of thinking in a critical in the critical methodology lends to that sort of thinking that, you know, we can't get to the originals. And I know there are some and again, this doesn't, that doesn't necessarily say all text critics believe that. Right.
I think I had a chance to talk with Elijah Hickson and Peter Gurry. Oh, absolutely. And I know that they're on the side of we can get back to the originals, but there are still many, many in the text critical community that think it's not possible. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Elijah Hickson, good friend. So also Peter Gurry and in our book, can we reach the original text? Peter Gurry wrote the chapter from the reason eclectic position, which is behind the critical text, but his position is, yes, you can reach the original text. So we want to make sure people know that just because you have, you are a reason eclectic does not mean that you have abandoned the original text.
There are many, many wonderful good scholars who don't. But unfortunately, when you look at the, the canons, their canons, you go, wow, no wonder you have just the way you compared SBL versus NA27. There are differences because here you are, which one gave rise to all the others versus the shorter is the best.
When they collide, what do you do? Well, there you go. Now you have two different texts. And then the new methodology, the coherence based genealogical method, CBGM, that has, in my opinion, has completely taken it to a whole different level. Does anybody understand how that works? I read a lot on it. I still don't. Yeah, it is. It is.
It is interesting because they even say it's like, hey, we're, we are trying to bring back some of the Byzantine readings as if, you know, that should convince us to join. But I'm not ready to join. I'm sorry. Right. Do you think that you can answer this as well? Do you think that giving up on the quest for the original text, like if we just say, hey, we can't do that, why wash your hands and move on? How does that affect our view of inerrancy?
Yeah, I think it gives up on it. Because if you, like, I think the common view on preservation is that God had preserved it in the original writings, and then the scribes have carried it through. So if you can't get back to the original writings, then what does that say about preservation?
Someone may object and say, well, we have it, it's good enough. But I can give you one example of where I think the critical texts and its methodologies tend to miss it, is the example of prayer. And I can't think of the passage where it is exactly, but there's one in Matthew, one in Mark, and it talks about the difference between prayer and fasting. This kind doesn't come out except through prayer and fasting. Of course, the disciples come to Jesus and they're like, you know, we tried to deal with this demon, but we couldn't do it.
Can you do something? And then Jesus says to them, well, this kind doesn't come out except through prayer and fasting. So in the Gospel of Matthew, when it's talking about this story, it leaves out the entire verse. This kind doesn't come out through prayer and fasting, just the whole verse is gone. So you go over to Mark and what it does is Jesus says in Mark, this kind doesn't come out except through prayer. So in the critical text, you have these two places where fasting is completely removed. Now, I know I'm using the word removed, but I'm going to use the word removed because I think it is removed.
There's a lot of questions surrounding these phrases. But what you have is both of these textual variants in Matthew and in Mark, leave us in a position where fasting is not connected to demonic deliverance. So now I'm a Pentecostal minister, so this is kind of a big deal. But you can see where the methodology and preservation, if the critical text methodologies is right, this is the mark here, because it totally leaves out this idea. Now, again, admittedly, it's rather minor, doesn't touch on any of the major doctrines of the faith, but I think it's still important. But whereas when you move over to a majority or Byzantine position, even the TR, right, has both of these passages in there. So yeah, if you come to a place where your idea of preservation is that these two places may or may not be, and we don't know, then what does that mean for preservation?
And then what does that mean for inerrancy? I mean, it's very costly. Our time is so running away and I want to talk away. But would you mind telling us the project that is going on with the Byzantine text? And there's a conference coming up here at Clearview with Clearview Apologetics this fall in October, and it's going to be something we're going to publicize, and Pastor Duane is going to be here, and several other big hitters will be here for this conference.
And we know it's going to be a lot of people coming. Would you mind telling us about the project if you don't mind? Yeah, so my friend Stephen Hackett from Biblical Studies and Reviews, he's got a YouTube channel and he talks a little bit about some of these issues. Interestingly, he's going into some of the Old Testament text critical stuff, which I've just kind of decided to leave in the black box for now.
So there's a group of us guys, I would say five or six, who are convinced that something like Byzantine priority is better. And so naturally we have kind of gravitated toward Maurice Robinson's work in the Byzantine text form. So his last edition was in 2018, and it's currently available online through one of those cheaper, what do you call it, print-on-demand services, which is okay for a regular book, but when it's Bible and you're constantly opening it and highlighting and underlining things and using it all the time, they fall apart really easy. So we decided as a group to do some work to produce the next edition of the Byzantine text form.
So it'll be the 2025, hopefully, the 2025 edition in a hardback sewn binding. We wanted large margins, just something high, high quality. And so our vision was to produce this as a kind of by the church for the church sort of deal.
So we're not taking any profits or anything. The vision was just simply to get the text out there and in the hands of people who use it. Yeah, absolutely.
So good. Dr. Shaw, thank you for helping us wade into these waters and understand why the average person needs to care about this. It matters and impacts the way we see the Bible. See, what I want to do now is sign up for another show, another episode where we can actually sit down and just discuss some variant readings and go back and forth. Some of the big ones like, say, Mark, the ending of Mark, that right.
And then maybe some small ones here and there. Let's do it. So we need to set up some time if you're good with it. We'll get our guys on our team to connect with you and let's get you back on the on the show with us. Absolutely.
That'd be awesome. Playing in the round of proverb or not verb. Amen. We'll break that tie breaker once. That's right.
That's right. Pastor Dwayne, thank you so much for being on the show today. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow.
Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on The Clearview Today Show. Not tomorrow, because tomorrow's Saturday.
Monday. Another great topic. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes. And you can always support us financially at Clearview todayshow.com. John, anything to leave listeners with today?
Yes, definitely. Make sure you follow Dr. Shah and all of his work on pray.com. You can get all of his resources there. You can give financially.
Thank you to everybody who's giving financially to the show as well. Discerning doctrine exclusive series that's only on pray.com as well as all of Dr. Shah's books and resources. Pastor Dwayne, anything you want to plug before we hop off? Just pop into my YouTube channel. Just look up Dwayne Green, textual discussions, textual discussions with Dwayne Green.
Come on, I know my own channel. Typically, I just I mostly focus specifically on text critical issues from a Byzantine majority text perspective. I touched on a little bit of the Calvinist discussion, but I'm not sure I like where that's going. So I'm going to retain everything as far as the text critical discussion.
So yeah, I talk about lots of variants, some of the manuscripts, some of the new finds that have happened and all of these things. So subscribe, like, do all the YouTube stuff. There you go. There you go. And happy birthday to you. Happy birthday. Yes, happy birthday. Thank you. Very cool.
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