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Donate at plannedparenthood.org/slash defend. This is Jane Pauley. Cat Stevens was a phenomenon back in the 1960s and 70s. Then he converted to Islam, changed his name to Yusuf Islam, and vanished from the music scene for nearly three decades.
Now he's looking back on his musical and spiritual journey in a new memoir. and he's talking with Sunday morning Seth Doane. Why did you want to write this memoir? I wanted to get the story straight, you know, and I wanted to. Explain a lot of things in between the lines that were never, never revealed.
And looking at the way in which you're perceived. You have to uh Admit I I've I've I've been misunderstood. Um even when I wrote Foreigner, I started with the words, there are no words I can use because the meaning still leaves for you to choose. I mean, I already felt. that I was being misunderstood.
And so the artist to try and explain himself. Has got to work a bit harder. When we watched you performing at Hyde Park, I got to sit right up front, and there were all these people dancing. around us. We saw a mother and her daughter and they were exuberant.
watching you. How is that to be on the receiving end of of that kind of Affection.
Well, I feel it, but uh obviously what I'm giving out is um Is what they're receiving. I'm quite honestly trying to be myself. It's not that easy when you've got a spotlight. I always try to be honest and give what I have, you know, especially. you know from from from my heart and uh and my music says it all.
I'm feeling that um I'm kind of um helping people Try to avoid some of the mistakes that I've made. I know everybody makes mistakes, you know, so but it's a process of learning. And my songs always represented. The growth of of my journey. and where I was going, even though I didn't know where I was going, but I was on the road to find out.
name of my book and the name of my tour. I think my songs have always been kind of profound in some way, because they're coming from a real place, they resonate. And so a lot of them are so relevant. to the world today? I mean wild world.
You know, come on. Yeah. And peace train waiting for the train to arrive. Boy, do we need it? Yeah.
I mean, they're relevant. It seems that a lot of this memoir is about a search for identity. is there and an identity of self that you feel you've found is there a Is there something that you were searching for that that you feel you have found? Yeah, I mean the fact that I can put my name Together and join Yusuf with Cat Stevens. I think that's symbolic.
Was that hard to do? Um Because you would cast one as I. Yeah. No, not difficult, you just kind of um You put one before the other. It was very simple.
But no, there was a transformation of, let's say, attitude and just to embrace and to understand That's what I wrote about was totally relevant to who I am today. I mean, there's no way that I could fake it. I had to be Honest, and I was when I wrote. And so, therefore, they're reflections of the history which, you know. Which brought me here and have helped in my involvement.
Uh to the person I am. Tell me about the origin of Cat Stevens, the name. The name, well, cats are always a little bit independent. And I had a girlfriend who looked at me one day and said, Ooh, you look like a cat. And I went, what?
Mm, that stuck. You know, and when I was looking for a name, because you know it was going to be difficult to go into the records store and ask for like Stephen Dimitri Giorgio's latest album. And I thought, no. Cat Stevens. Yeah, I'll keep Stephen and I've got the cat.
Do you think you would have been as successful as Stephen Dmitri Georgio? There's no you can't play with fate. Fate does it, and then you just look back and reflect and say, well, I could have done it better. But do you think that this unique name set you apart in a way that was helpful for you in selling records. Yeah, a good name is is always important.
I mean, you know, so um yeah, yeah, it's it's but names represent the personality and I suppose yeah, there is a bit of that independent Cat. within me, you know, I mean, you know, I try to land on my feet. All the time, and you don't really own me, you know, nobody owns me. Those kind of characteristics, I think, yeah. That describes me.
You write about You were a success. very early on. You reached Super stardom in your teens. But that, as you write, was also quite difficult. Yeah, I think the the problem with um Success is that you know it kind of detaches you from reality in some sense, and you have to find your balance.
You know, who are you? You know, are you that person on the screen, on the stage? Or is there something more to you? Do you have more dimensions? And oftentimes, well, I did have another dimension.
Actually, I put that into my songs, but still, I was looking for.
some big answers and you know and I d I didn't have that with me. How can you be writing something that so profoundly touches people, but to be so unsure of yourself? I think probably the greatest love songs of the sad ones. You know, so maybe it's the absence of you know, having that answer that drives. the music and the inspiration.
Um Probably. Yeah. Okay. quite a lot to do with it. You describe in your early days you describe yourself as at times intolerable.
You say, you describe scenes of wanting to be seated at the perfect table at the restaurant, not wanting to be awakened before noon. Where did that come from? That was the sixties. When I went to the seventies, it was all sorted. Yeah.
But where do they come from deeper inside? What makes you think that way about yourself to get to that point.
Well, you see that Elton John's doing it, so you think, well, I should do this, I should get the same treatment, shouldn't I? I suppose when you go to a restaurant and you think, I should have that table, not that jerk. Probably that Kind of the ego thing is really based on something which is insecure.
So you want to be Um A little bit more. You want to be confident and the only way to do that is to kind of be become a bit bold, a bit bigger, a bit more exaggerated and you know, demand things that you think you deserve. But really, it's all based on insecurity, I think. How is that dealing with those ups and downs of being successful, being accepted, being loved by? people I think The failures that I had in my life were probably more important than the successes in some sense.
Because then it's like real, and when I had TB, there was a whole turnaround. Suddenly I had to re-adjust myself and confront uh my mortality. That got me deeper. into thinking and that really reflected in my music and came out with something much better.
So I think it's the sometimes it's the failures that build characters more than the successes. You did a lot of spiritual searching. You grew up going to a Catholic school. you sampled Buddhism What all did you Try. Spiritually?
Well, you know, the bookshop is full of lots of different. You know, you say. Views of life and the universe and beliefs and philosophies.
So I was digging around everywhere, you know. I mean, numerology, I thought, well, maybe Pythagoras worked it out. Maybe it's a numerical thing. And I thought, no. No, no, no, that's not it.
I think the most important thing was when I finally went through. True all as m as much as I could and um reached the Koran at the end and that was like that just brought everything together. centered everything for you. I think Islam is the, you know, if you look at it objectively, it's the evolvement of, you know, all the beliefs of the world up until that point, but then God saying, now I'm going to clarify it. because things get distorted.
Was it, do you think, deep down inside that touched you in that way? There are a lot of religious people who would say, God, I find God through. Catholicism or Buddhism or What was it for you about Islam?
Well Islam is in it's in the word, it's in the name, it means surrender. I found that it was to do with that word, surrender to God. And also it comes from the word peace. There was peace. You know, I'd written about peace train.
Come on. You know, this is like. Wow, so this is the train that's going to take me there. You describe a scene where you go swimming. you're visiting some friends in Malibu and there is something that you describe as almost a divine intervention of sorts.
From the outside, it might look like a strange coincidence, but to me, it was a life and death. issue that was so profound Everything rested on it, my life. My future. what happened when you were swimming in Malibu.
Well, in Malibu, it was the turning point. It was the point where I. had lost the ability to to swim. to survive the ocean. Massive Currents, you know, were taking me out, not in.
The only one I could call on at that moment was God. And he answered me. What did you say? Um God save me, and I'll work for you. It was a deal.
Right out there in the ocean. And the only witnesses I had were the ocean. And uh and my songs, I suppose, because If you really analyze my songs, you'll see that it all leads perfectly towards that point, even the song called On the Road to Find Out. said the answer lies within, you know, and in the end I'll know. And on the way I wonder, and then pick up a good book.
Wow, you know, that's what happened to me after that. you were swimming and you thought you were gonna drown. I was drowning, yeah. Yeah, I was definitely drowning. In the book, you describe a wave coming, pushing you to shore.
Some skeptics could say, oh, it sounds like coincidence. Yeah. Um Yeah, I was in the Pacific Ocean and you know it was probably a bad time to go swimming. I lost all my power. uh and strength, I was now facing Death on the horizon looking directly at me, and in that most fragile moment when I had perhaps seconds left, I used them to call out to God.
And he answered me by sending a little wave that just pushed me back to shore. But you didn't tell the friends that you were with that day. Why should I? This between me and God. It was a profound Moment for you.
personally. And that you think is what really changed m moved you closer. I kind of forgot about it afterwards and then, you know, things Happened and I got the Quran, and suddenly I didn't really put these two things together, but then afterwards I realized that, well, that must have been like the response from my request for help. And the Quran came to help. You write that as you told family and friends about your conversion.
to Islam that you felt that it They knew it was the end of your career. Um maybe my brother was a little bit worried. That this might put a hole in uh the family boat. Were you a little bit worried? Why should I be?
No, this was like, whoa, this was finding what I was looking for. But in so many so many minds, you had what so many people want. You had fame and success at stardom. In a way, all that was a byproduct of what I was searching for.
So it was like, I got all these things, but in a way, it didn't make me any better. and didn't achieve I was looking for, and what I was working for, and what I was searching for. Um it came, and with that came a responsibility also to be um. To be I would say um Honest? Why did you have to, in your mind, leave music?
Why couldn't you continue both of these loves? I think that I'd achieve that. everything that I'd I would want to achieve in music. I'd done it, I've been there, I've been up to the top of the mountain.
Now, where do you go from there? Right?
So you're looking for something that's almost it's imperceptible. What I had found was perceptible. And even though you couldn't kind of put it in a box or wrap it up, it was something that was setting me free. From the chains and the burdens, because even success can be such a burden.
So it actually let me um gave me a chance to be free and to to get a life.
So I mean what I'm saying is Music of course was great. as a vehicle for me using it as a vehicle. But when I got where I wanted to go, it kind of Of became redundant for a little bit, you know, and uh because you were getting that from. From God, from yourself. Try to find the answers that I've been searching for.
I mean, all those answers, all the boxes were ticked. And so therefore All those questions in my songs were now answered.
Now, what am I going to write about?
So, really, I kind of. It's not as if my well dried up, but there was nothing left there to um to examine. How difficult was it to auction off your instruments to part with the the past, the music in that way. I was really learning so much that I didn't find it difficult to leave a couple of instruments behind. It's hard to bu hard to imagine from the outside, someone whose life is centered around that.
My life wasn't centered around music, it was centered more around my search, and the music was a byproduct in a way. You know, I mean obviously it meant a lot to me and I was... Sincere about it. But again, you've got to look at the objective and the intention behind those songs. What was it?
I mean, was it really just to like like Uh like a hit record. No. I was I was really searching. Why did you believe for a while that music was forbidden and then? Why the change?
Took me time to realize that a lot of What I was told in the beginning when I became a Muslim. Um was not exactly Right.
So, I mean, you know, they they told me it was warning me about music and being involved and all that. It took me time to learn that, no, of course not. Islam doesn't forbid anything that's healthy and morally good.
So some some kind of adjustment in in in I th I think Other people's views was needed, not my view. How do you reconcile the you who put that aside. with the you who embraced Music again. You go through stages. You know, at one time you can fall in love.
The next time you're having such an argument with the person, you say, where the hell, get out of my life, you know.
So, I mean, you know, you change, your attitude changes according to circumstance. Context this king. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview. After this break. Our Common Nature is a musical journey with Yo-Yo Ma and me, Ana Gonzalez, through this complicated country.
We go into caves, onto boats and up mountain trails to meet people, hear their stories, their poetry, and of course, play some music. All to reconnect to nature. and get closer to the things we're missing. Listen to Our Common Nature from WNYC wherever you get podcasts. Your son brought a guitar back into the house.
You say a more puritanical you, an earlier version of you, would have not allowed that. Describe. When your son brings a guitar back into the house, in essence, ushering music back in town. your life. That was a beautiful moment.
I mean, you know, just seeing the guitar there back in the house again, and I'd become much more relaxed about the whole issue, and I suddenly saw. There was a way now that perhaps I could use music again to build bridges and help people to Feel more relaxed and feel comfortable again, especially with. you know, with the way the world was going, we need peacemakers. You know, and I was one of them, and I am one of them. You're very vocal in your in your concerts, in your shows.
when in the one that I watched you were very vocal for uh of supporting Cal Palestinians i in Gaza. Why why why are you so political on stage? I'm not really political. No, I disagree with that. Um I'm human.
Back in the 70s I was an ambassador.
So back in the 70s I was an ambassador for UNICEF.
So I've always been interested in humanitarian work.
So when you're looking at problems that are facing us in the world today, You can't ignore them. You have been very active in charities, Muslim aid, building schools here in the UK. This community center that we're in is.
Something that you've done. Yeah, well this is what you as you can see it's only uh Temporary at the moment, but in progress. We're in work in progress. And this is based on Abraham, actually. The idea of this center is Abraham.
Because he symbolizes the unity that there is. Between So many faiths. And um You know, I'm always looking for that. Um That unity, that we can build our relationships and improve our love and our peace and our life together. I'm always looking for that.
You bring up in your In your memoir, you bring up one of the more controversial periods of of your life. With the satanic verses, Salman Rushdie's book you were going back to kind of explain from your perspective, how that chapter unfolded. I wonder how you see that, what you would do differently in your reaction Today. Isn't it important to get the whole picture? It is really important.
problem was I think the whole thing was incredibly heated up. and covered with all sorts of controversies that weren't of my making, mostly of the press. But I would you know, I would stand Still, on two basic things. One is Truth. And the other one is history.
So, anyway, the way in which I was portrayed, yeah, I wish. it would have been better, but I don't think it was only my fault. I think it was mostly the The media and the politics at the time. Iran, after all, had just, you know. You know.
suddenly um it was there. You know, and it was it was a difficult thing for for a lot of people to deal with and even for Muslims. On page 392, you write that not mentioning the questionability of the fatwa was probably one of the biggest mistakes of my early Muslim life. What do you mean about questionability? The problem with um With my statement at the beginning of the Very beginning.
I was just quoting. History. if you like, or fact.
So I was saying, you know Look at them. Bible, look at the scriptures, you'll see what the attitude is towards blasphemy. And that was what I said. And they turned that into. And they never asked me the question, well, do you accept the fatwa?
What do you believe about the fatwa? I don't accept the fatwa. Because it goes against The process of law. And those were the two things I stood upon: like, number one, history, this is a fact, and the other thing is law, I stick by it. Do you wish you had just spoken?
said that. Back then? Yes, probably. But then there were those kind of unfortunate statements. You would say misedited or not or taken out of context on that 1989 British.
Show That then got repeated in the media. British sense of humour.
So I took it in a kind of slightly comical direction. It wasn't a good thing to do because nobody laughed and there was no canned laughter.
So, you know, I made a mistake in thinking that people might get the joke. But. Um It was a serious issue, so I shouldn't have really done that. But people. I would joke, you mean saying whatever, whatever.
Preferred the real thing. Whatever, whatever, whatever. When you saw the headlines after that. Do you worry even today that you're going to have to do it? You bring it up in the book, so it's.
No, it's only a little part of the book. It's perhaps. Download 20 pages. And there's 500. But it seems like With this book, you partially wanted to set the record straight from your perspective.
That's right. I think I've done that. you write that one of the great fears of a songwriter One of your fears is drying up. Creatively? Is that something you still?
worry about? Not really. Um There's a there's a there's a A verse in the Qur'an that says, you know, if all The seas were ink, and all the trees were pens. You would not. Um Dry up.
the words or you know we would not exhaust the words of God. And I think that, you know, look at how many books there are in any library. There's so much to learn. I'm driven by adventure. And by um searching for more.
knowledge Wherever that knowledge takes me, and I would say that songs also help me to. progress in my in my uh search for knowledge. Did you when you took a break from music, did you listen to music? Not too much. I wasn't really interested too much because I was deeply into education, you know, schools and to charity work, and that was really my life and my family, of course.
Learning how to be a daddy, you know, I'm like, whoa. Nobody teaches you that, you know. What are you like as a dad? I'm great. No, I think I'm great.
I think I've got a few. Rough edges. What did your wife think? when you went back to music.
Well, I think she was Kind of pleased because it made me a much more relaxed person. I think it was, I needed something like that. Um And she she's My biggest critic. Oh, well, no, really, she's my biggest fan. No, she really supports me a lot.
You had various muses that you wrote songs about. First cut is the deepest, Christine. A girlfriend. Carly Simon was a muse. When you think back to those muses, those songs, what comes to mind?
Um Well, you know, I can I I certainly can't play them in front of my wife.
So I keep them as a kind of I put a little kind of lid on those things. No, I mean. It's reality, but I'm in a great place now.
So when I sing hard-headed woman today, I've changed the words. I say, I found myself a hardwood-headed woman, but I didn't find out how hard-headed she was until I married her. Yeah. You say you write that you want to be a prism. From for the West to understand Islam.
Yeah, it's not as if I want to be. I think I am a kind of a reflection of. To They're not desperate. Cultures, they're just two different ways of looking at things.
So in the Quran, it says, We've made you nations and tribes that you may get to know one another, not to despise one another. And so, differences of East and West, they're kind of rich things, they're things we should be enjoying and rejoicing in. You see yourself as an ambassador of sorts? I never got paid for this job, but perhaps I did get paid actually. I did get paid very well for being a peacemaker, and that's what I still am.
You describe yourself early on is quite shy. as struggling to know quite what to say between sets. Has that gone away? Oh, yeah, I've got it completely scripted now. There was a time when I'd be so embarrassed listening back to some of those tapes.
What I'd say in the middle, you know, between songs, shut up. You know, um but now I can uh I kind of know now a little bit more of the art of, you know, chat. Do you still feel like you're shy? Um I'm hesitant about who I'm talking with, making sure I understand exactly who I'm talking to, and I think that's an important thing. And if you've got an audience that's already in love with you, you don't have too much of a problem, to be honest.
Let's face it. You write so much about searching. Are you still searching? Is there still something else? Oh, you never stop searching.
I mean, you know, you just look at Any library. Look at all the books you haven't read. How is it to sit down and write something?
So exhaustive, so personal to go through the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful. I left quite a lot of the ugly out, actually.
So, to be honest. You were hard on yourself at times. That was good to know. That's that's fair. That's good.
Well, I do like to be fair. But as I say, we've always got you know things that we don't I want to remember. I tried to be honest in my writing of songs. and in the writing of my book. I'm Jane Pauley.
Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts. Making films? I think you got footage in Dropbox.
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