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Donate at plannedparenthood.org/slash defend. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell. And if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car? Not so much.
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I'm Jane Pauley. Nicole Scherzinger is the latest to play the legendary Norma Desmond. and has a Tony to prove it. She's talking with Sunday Morning's Tracy Smith. A lot of of great actors have played Norma Desmond, but you made the role your own.
Your performance was hailed as amazing. You want a Tony. How do you see Norma Desmond? How do I see Norma Desmond? I see Norma Desmond.
Oh god. Gonna tear up, sorry. I see no Medesman. As myself, I see my Norma Desmond as you I see a piece of Norma Desmond in everyone. Norman Tesman is the Human story.
Anyone who wants to feel seen. anyone who's ever felt unseen or lonely or unheard, Abandon. Anyone who wants to be loved. loved fully, completely for who they are. Um Norma is A dreamer.
She wants to give the world new ways to dream because everyone needs new ways to dream, especially now more than ever. And she is a warrior. I think, um It's mister DeMille says she will never surrender. I think Max says she will never surrender. Um and she's a fighter.
Um A bit delusional at times, but who isn't when they're passionate about something something that they feel is their um their love and their gift and uh what they were born for and that's taken from them. You know, you d could get delusional from that. You could get, um You know, find yourself in many dark places. And she's. I wanted to make sure to bring the human aspect to Norma's story.
because it's important for us all to connect on those deeper levels. On a Emotional levels, those spiritual, soulful levels, because people have to care, otherwise, then it's not going to affect them as much. Could you feel the audience connecting with Norma? Yes. Absolutely.
Um My Brilliant director Jamie Lloyd. From day one. When he asked me to play normal when he had the vision. and the dream of me being Norma Desmond, I said, Oh. Isn't it about that old has-been?
You were a little hesitant at first. I was a bit hesitant at first. You know, I think I was wearing a massive hat that day and sunglasses and he says I came in with my entourage and my bejeweled caftan blowing in the wind. And I was like, I still look good under bright lights. Jamie, what are you talking about?
And he said, just read the story. And I said, no, I've seen the film, I love the film, but I'm not ready to play her now, Jamie. He says, no, no, no, no, no. Don't pay attention to the film. Read the story and connect with it on your level personally.
And I did exactly that. And when I read her story, Norma's story on the page, she made complete sense to me. All of her beautiful complexity just totally. made complete sense in my mind.
So, um I thought that it was important to uh to bring that To the stage, and because of him, for example, in Salome, I said, Can I have fun with this, please? And he said, Yes, I want you to bring your full personality to the role. And so he allowed me to add a bit of humor to Norma's story, which maybe people hadn't always seen in the past. It's it's fun in the first act. I get to have a laugh with the audience and connect with them on that beautiful level.
And then in the second act we kind of go to some dark twists and turns as her mind, the human psyche and heart, and that we plummet to the depths of where the human psyche and heart can go and we go on that journey. What do you think Sunset Boulevard says about the entertainment industry and what it does to? older women. I mean It definitely has the issue Uh Ageism, I think that. It's difficult.
Um It's hard, the industry, because you're constantly already, even at a young age, comparing yourself. And then for this, It's difficult that the industry kind of puts an expiration date on you. when you've actually lived a life and actually Finally, have something really meaningful to say and because you have experienced life and career and heartache and and and love and loss. Right, so it's just um it's a bit of a pity I think, but I think that hopefully things are changing now, you know. Do you feel like it is changing?
Or 75 years in, is that message still Relevant? I think absolutely the message is still relevant, you know. I'll never forget when I turned thirty. From after the dolls, and then they were still, and the record labels were like. hesitant to play my music.
Because you turned thirty? Yes. And um I think when I was in my early thirties, they were already aging me up in in roles and I said, no, I can go out for this role They were like they were already casting me as like the mother. And I was like, but I don't have children. Like, I can't, you know, and it's uh, so it's just um.
It's definitely still relevant, but I think the women are changing and so things are changing that we are not allowing people to hold us back. In that way, and to view us that way, because we don't view ourselves, and we don't put ourselves in a box like that.
So, we're the ones that are changing, and because of that, the industry is changing. Does that make sense? That makes total sense. You you made your name as uh Pop star. But was theater always a dream?
Yes, theatre was my first love. I started theater when I was 14 at a theater called the Actors Theater of Louisville in Louisville, Kentucky. A brilliant, beautiful, little prestigious theater. And I got to play in a play called La Bette, a French play, was my first play, and then my second play was um A Cambodian Odyssey, The Survivor, based off of the Camerouge. And it was pretty deep.
And there I got to be surrounded by amazing professional working actors, and I got to soak up. all their brilliance and I I just loved being in the theater. And then I went to a youth performing arts school and um I learned a lot there, so much there. That was my foundation. I still had my best friends from that high school are in the city and they were celebrating my Tony nomination with me.
We all got together for that. And so that's part of my foundation is that school. Because I came from a very humble beginning, so I never, my parents could never afford classes or anything.
So yeah, and then I would go on to college and uh and and then Summerstock Theatre and I played many roles. And the stage was In a place I always I've touched on it before, I say when you feel like you're born into a world that you don't fit in, it's because you're meant to create a new one. And the theater always felt like a safe space for me. I always felt like it was a place where I belonged. Why do you think and you've touched on this a little bit, but People have seen People went to see your performance multiple times.
There's a woman who works here at Sardis who saw your performance like 30 times.
Well, she is. One door over.
So but still, you know that people people people who kick Don't live in the city, came and saw your performance multiple times. What do you think it was? What do you think it is that resonates so much with people?
Well, that's a Beautiful question. I think the stars just aligned. I think that It was a dream collaboration, myself and Jamie Lloyd, and Andrew Lloyd Weber. to come together and to shake some things up. and do something that's never been done before.
and to be able to give the world new ways to dream for this reimagining. of taking this Um a script. and turn it into something that's modern and fresh, new production that no one's ever seen before. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break. We all belong outside.
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I have one black slip, right? There's no I couldn't even uh con my director into me wearing a pair of earrings. There's the turban was definitely out. Um But I think it was stripping everything away. We do have camera work sometimes.
We do have a 65-foot screen that we play off of because she is a film noir actor. I think that it was stripping everything back. Jamie calls it It's not nothing. It's everything. and he left it up to us to fill that space.
To fill that space with our hearts, with our souls, with our life experience, and to be, because we don't have anything to hide behind, to be laser-focused. It's about precision, it's about the intention, it's about the nuance. and to be able to stay keep people people focused because they don't have anything else to rely on except for you. telling that story. and the most honest Brawl.
truthful way. And um hopefully connecting on those deeper levels is what people uh resonated. Wes. Um And the fact that it was just something so new. I mean, I've never seen the show.
I've seen some press pictures of it, but I'm just so proud of the company. You know, everything was so different. It was a new way of telling stories. But the most important way is the heart of it, the heart and the the soul. One of the biggest things my director two things that he told me in the beginning was Day one, be open.
And I think that's so important. I think when people open their hearts and their minds and their imaginations, they can go anywhere and anything is possible. And he would always say, I need you to be brave. And I was like, you've taken me out of all of my comfort zones doing this role. You're pushing me to the limits here that I've never gone before.
Am I not being brave? And he said, yes, and now I need you to be braver.
So I think that's what happens is extraordinary things lie on the other side of fear. On the other side of fear, is is freedom. And then that freedom is that fulfillment and that meaning and maybe that's what resonated with people. And the stories. The stories are very complex.
I don't know, I could go on about this for days. I just hope I'm making sense. Do you think? Will you carry a little bit of Norma? With you.
I will always have Norma with me. She's changed my life. I have um One of the first art pieces I ever bought was a Harlan Miller. The Penguin Books, Harlan Miller. And it says, I am the one I've been waiting for.
I didn't always understand what that meant. 'Cause I've always kind of lived for other people. And for for the Affirmation, validation of others, and relationships. Always kind of been codependent, you know, inherited that from my family. And um I know the full meaning of what that art piece is now.
With the title, I am the one I've been waiting for. It's been such a healing process. process for me. having to be courageous, having to break down and come face to face and toe to do um with the darkest parts of me. With my insecurities, my fears, my own demons, as we all have.
every performance, over 400 performances. I can proudly say I've come out on the other side a lot more evolved and healed. and groan.
So she is a She is a big part of me. She'll always be a huge part of me. She has reminded me of who I am, who I was born for, and who I was meant to be. And um Yeah, we don't realize The power that we have. all of us, if we really tapped in friend of mine, Sar Serena Williams, said, um I was a I was it was a time in my life where I had to make a very important decision and I was very afraid.
And she said, What would you do if you were not afraid? I then wrote a song about it. which one day will come out in my own musical that I write. Um but if you ask yourself that question, what were you do what would you do if you were not afraid?
Well, this is where I am today. And if we weren't afraid, then we put, you know, sky's the limit. It's beautiful. Um I think with with Jamie Lloyd that I loved is, um, One of the best things I love about him as a director is that he didn't put any barriers on me.
So much of your life being in the industry, you're just constantly put in one box to another. And he didn't. He didn't have any preconceived notions. He didn't stereotype me. He just took away the chains, took away the the walls, the barriers, and that's when I work the best.
I think there may be a tendency for people to see Norma Dusnand as portrayed in the movie as. Tragic, maybe even pathetic. But was your Norma Desmond that? I wanted her to be As real and raw and honest as possible.
So if there is delusion, The audience believes that it's not delusion either. Does that make sense? I, um,. I think the the the truth of it is is that It's the tragedy of the industry. Because I'll never forget when I was doing Salome.
Okay. And I said, okay, Jamie. What kind of old-timey, really kooky, silly am I gonna be like, you know, balancing plates on this part? What am I gonna do, you know, for this dance break for Salome that she's pitching? And he says, Oh, no, no, no.
you're gonna dance like in your music videos. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. I know how to dance in my music videos. You know, I'll be killing it. Like, let's go.
Like, that's too cool. I couldn't be doing that, right? She's like, has been. He goes, no, that's the tragedy. is you can do it.
You can do it like no other still. And people still put you in a box and view you and say you're too old to do that. My name, Nicole. means Victor.
So I will never play the victim. And um there's Norma is a warrior.
So I just wanted her to just take back her power. and to not put it in somebody, even though she yes, she is seeking validation. It doesn't stem so much from seeking it from others, it's more from reclaiming it for herself. If that makes sense. Does that make any sense?
Yeah. I don't know. I just, I felt like in choices, the choices I wanted to make. I I just So many times I've seen, I've definitely been in very vulnerable situations. And um And I allowed that to come out in her story, you know, when she's fearful ever, when Jo's trying to leave or showing her true colors before everything turns red in the show.
She's exposed when he finds her leaving the calling Betty Schaefer, you know. Um But I don't know. I think I wish Jamie was here to talk about this because he would articulate it so much better. I just wanted to make choices that were coming more. I want to say a place of strength and power, but also on the flip side to that, a real strength of just full.
vulnerability and what is it when you're completely open. She is very exposed. and to reveal everything until it To be able to fully expose yourself And to reveal it all, you have to you have to tap into that power, that superpower, to do that. To go to that place where vanity is out the door and it has nothing to do with about how you look and sound. It's just about it's very it becomes very primal.
And you did that. Do you think ultimately Norma Desmond is a victor. Yes. I think she's a victor. I think at the end, after she kills Joe in Severus's head, I think that the media goes wild.
And she gets all, she gets the, you know, Dibby and the spotlight again, and maybe gets to tell her story finally and create the things that she wants to create instead of being. Put away in a loony bin.
So maybe not so pathetic after all. Tragic, but maybe not pathetic. Yes, yes. Yeah. I don't think pathetic.
I think pathetic is a um I'm too em of an em too much of an empath. We all have gone through some very lonely, dark times in our lives, or maybe have had something that we love that's been taken from us.
So if we Uh can We're laid on that level, then it's it's not pathetic.
Well, at least though our interpretation of this and that's probably why it resonated so much, because people could see themselves in Norma. Yes. Yes, that's the dream. that I wanted. Um It's so it's such a blessing, to be honest with you, the theater.
because it allows you to go there. Or maybe some other people would be afraid to. And when you go there, you're able to connect, you know, like you said, on a a way deeper level that, um makes a difference that moves the needle. I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening.
And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts. Martha listens to her favorite band all the time. In the car, Jim. Even sleeping.
So when they finally went on tour, Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them live. She saved so much, she got a seat close enough to actually see and hear them. Yeah, sort of. You were made to scream from the front row. We were made to quietly save you more.
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