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Carolina Journal Radio No. 752: Placing new AP, SAT scores in context

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
October 16, 2017 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 752: Placing new AP, SAT scores in context

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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October 16, 2017 12:00 am

North Carolina public school students saw gains in the past year in both Advanced Placement courses and SAT scores. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research, examines the data. Stoops explains whether the latest numbers represent unqualified good news. The Trump administration has talked about achieving energy dominance. Daniel Fine, associate director of the New Mexico Center for Energy Policy and senior policy analyst for the New Mexico State Department of Energy, Minerals, and Natural Resources, assesses the Trump team’s proposals. Fine explains whether the United States is capable of meeting those goals. Among the ideas the University of North Carolina system’s Board of Governors wants to pursue is a renewed focus on reducing tuition and fee burdens for students. You’ll hear highlights from a recent BOG debate about the issue. North Carolina has achieved major economic gains in recent years, but those gains often have gone unreported as media outlets have focused on political infighting. Donald Bryson, N.C. state director of Americans for Prosperity, explains why his group is drawing attention to the economic gains through a program dubbed NC Real Solutions. The Carolina Beach Town Council recently earned kudos from the John Locke Foundation’s city and county policy analyst. Julie Tisdale says she was happy to see local leaders debating whether the town places too many restrictions on construction and use of accessory buildings. Tisdale says Carolina Beach already has taken positive steps to loosen rules regarding the height and size of those structures. She’s waiting to see how the town will address rules limiting use of accessory buildings for apartments or rental units.


From Cherokee to Currituck from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got during the next hour will explore some major issues affecting our state. The trump administration is talked about US energy self-sufficiency and energy dominance will chat with the national expert on the topic. He recently visited Raleigh to analyze what energy dominance might actually mean members of the University of North Carolina's board of governors want to put the brakes on student tuition and fees will hear them debate the issue. If you haven't heard much about good news link to North Carolina's economy in recent years you will throw a campaign called NC real solutions. Find out who's leading the effort to tell the Tar Heel state's recent success and will learn why the town Council of Carolina Beach is earning kudos from a limited government watchdog. Those topics are just ahead. First, the Carolina Journal headline SAT scores are up about North Carolina high school students more of them are taking and passing advanced placement courses. That's great news right when our next guest is here to tell us Dr. Terry stoops is vice president for research and director of education studies or the John Locke foundation, welcome back Terry, thank you so we have heard trumpeted in headlines. The fact that North Carolina high school students are seeing higher SAT scores and the numbers are looking better for AP classes and AP tests as well is this unqualified good news will something on unqualified if you look at the test scores you see some positive signs of improvements but you also see some things that you know need to be addressed in first and foremost you look at the AP.

The advanced placement pass rates are still just a hair over 50%. So that means around half of the students in half of the tests that they take for an advanced placement course they're not passing in and that should be something that we need to worry about. Considering that we are placing increased investment in AP courses so signs of improvement but still a long way to go for AP, yeah, absolutely. And as far as the SAT goes. This is an interesting one, because North Carolina students have been actually in fewer numbers taking the SATs because the state pays for all 11th graders to take the ACT test sourcing fewer students take the SAT in our combined score was higher than the national average.

That was 1074 on a revised test and this is really important because it makes it difficult to compare North Carolina to previous administrations of the test. Instead, we have to just deal with the fact that the college board create the SAT and continues to administer it created a new test and that North Carolina students seem to be doing well, but fewer of them are taking in addition to the change in the test, wouldn't we see some changes in the scores just from the other factor that you mention the fact that you were students are taking the test. Thus, more likely, they're the ones who are better students who need the SAT to get the certain schools yeah that's absolutely right. And you know it really does beg the question of why a student. If they're having the ACT, paid for, which is also college admission exam which choose to take the SAT and maybe the SAT test different strengths than the ACT and so that's why students are increasingly using the essay the SAT and and by using the ACT and also taking the SAT book. Whatever the case is we would probably see an increase in scores because of fewer students taking it that's deftly going to be one factor in any of the other factor may be changes in the test itself.

It could be that students have stronger skills. Given the debt changes in the test than they did in the previous tests we are chatting with Dr. Terry stoops, who is vice president for research at the John Locke foundation. You also reference the fact that students are pretty much all, taking the ACT. What we seeing in terms of the numbers for that test well were seeing some improvements in but there is one alarming number and that number is 11.5% and that represents the percentage of students that are careering college ready. Across the four subjects of the ACT test that would be reading writing math and science so really only a very small segment of the student population is really ready for college and career. Just of hair over 10% of our students. The rest of them have mixed success with the testing with the ACT testing.

We see some better scores are in some some subjects compared to others but still the percentage of students that are proficient in those four areas are really what we need to zoom in on when we look at the ACT score is in a real sign of alarm is North Carolina standing out from the pack in terms of not having many students who are competent, I guess is the correct word to say in all those subject areas were deftly not unique but here's the interesting aspect of that our graduation rate continues to go up and because our graduation rate continues to increase. The assumption is that the graduates were putting out there are ready for higher education are ready for the job market, but unfortunately the ACT scores indicate that that's not the case and effect. Interestingly enough we we can also see in the SAT score.

There they are gauging college readiness as well. They found a little more optimistic of a number that just about half of the students who took the SAT are careering college ready, but as we mentioned earlier, those are probably the better students, so we would suspect that there going to be careering college ready, but the ACT score scores represent all this to all 11th graders and North Carolina for years and years people have looked at the SAT, North Carolina's SAT score as sort of the benchmark of how high school students are doing, but as someone who has looked through the numbers knows the details of who's taking what test among those tests, SAT, ACT, AP, or if there were others were the ones people really should be paying attention. Well, definitely the ACT because it represents all student, all 11th graders and North Carolina.

The SAT is problematic because of changes the participation rate if they continue to decline, which they probably will. That will get less of a sense of really were North Carolina students are at and AP is an interesting one, because if our goal in the legislature. It does have a goal of getting more students in advanced placement courses. Having the students successfully complete those courses is very important so we need to pay attention to the percentage of students that score a three or higher, that's the guideline on these AP tests but I think about looking at these 11th grade 11th graders taking the ACT test is probably the thing we should focus on the most is there anything among those scores that points to some type of change that are to be made at the high school level or even earlier. You look at, say, 1/2 we did this in 10th grade. We did this back in the sixth or seventh grade, we would see better scores if I have those answers. I'd probably be a billionaire but the truth of the matter is we do need to start early in the legislature has been looking at early, grade reading grades K through three read to achieve program because what one thing we do know is that if you're not proficient in reading. By the third grade than you can fall further and further behind. As you progress through middle and high school and you end up struggling and so we we need to continue to focus on K-3, especially reading because it's so important. All the other subject areas and I think the legislature is on the right track with making sure that all third-graders are proficient in reading itself as if one piece of advice you would give to policymakers is don't pat yourselves on the back or pat the public school officials on the back for these recent improvements because there's still a lot of work to be done. That's right. And unfortunately, we saw that the press release that was so published by the Department of Public instruction actually said that they actually said there's a lot more work to do there some signs of progress, but a lot more work to do and so they know and realize that in the past we had a lot of pomp and circumstance. With the slightest increase in test scores. Now we sort of have a more reality-based approach to testing and North Carolina and what it tells us in the brief amount of time that we have left. Are you going to be looking next year. Most at what happens with that ACT score yes the most important for this year, though, is the national assessment of educational progress which should be released in the next month or two and this is a national tests that a sample North Carolina students take every other year working to get the results from the 2017 administration of math and reading for grades four and eight.

This is a very important test really can gives us the comparison of North Carolina to other states and will give us a trend that we can see how North Carolina has been doing through the years when one person is going to be looking at those numbers very closely.

As Dr. Terry stoops is the vice president for research and also director of education studies for the John Locke foundation select thank you a lot more on Carolina Journal radio just a moment. Are you wondering where our country is headed while so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they let our country the issues and challenges, endure its living history, living history events during two incredible actors Monday evening November 20. Brought to you by the organization dedicated to advancing freedom, the John Locke foundation find that's John Locke with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening November 20 at the Museum of history in Raleigh tickets $10 per person but just five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh November 20.

Hope to see you there. Welcome back Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got the truck administration is talked about world energy job what that mean how might impact the nation's strategic defense. Our next guest to spend time thinking about that topic. He recently shared his thoughts with the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury society Dr. Daniel fine his associate director of the New Mexico center for energy policy is also senior policy analyst with the New Mexico State Department of energy, minerals and natural resources. Welcome back to the program you so wet. This has been something that's been in the news because of Pres. Trump talking about energy and trying to make the United States, the dominant energy producer as someone who works in the field of energy. What does energy dominance mean to you.

Please United States is reversed a dependency policy which dominated 73 1973 to the present.

All our defense and certainly energy policies from four administrations was based on the need to import foreign oil to the United States dependency was based on cultural disruption bravely from the Middle East and OPEC Saudi Arabia. What administration Trump administration is done is reverse that the new policy is to either look at dominance or self-sufficiency. Sounds like a massive change. I prefer self-sufficiency.

That means the revolution in shale production in 06 developed the capacity to go to the source rock. It ended historic geology and reversed the way oil is basically explored for and produced this technology revolution extracting oil in the United States has changed not only the truck administration, but the dynamic of the world because, for example, a reaction bar Saudi Arabia open Eric in 2014 they understood that the main threat to their world market and oil was from the United States, the Southwest and North Dakota. This change still exists despite all the price war of 2 1/2 years and market share. Conflict, the capacity given financial borrowing, lending to support the technology is moving the United States, probably within three years over 10 million barrels a day of oil. Oral dominance means essentially through secretaries think it of the Interior Department capacity now to become self-reliant and oil without importing or at least a dependency on imports. This meant for sake secretaries Vicki the opening up of federal land that is a classic change in American foreign policy and domestic oil policy.

It influences foreign policy.

The federal government is going to open federal land to expedite leasing of for oil and gas is a reversal completely applicable Obama administration, which followed, not an energy policy, but in fact energy rejection in favor of climate change. It was a climate change policy subset energy that is been reversed by executive order by the new overall policy releasing federal land as it is in law to record perverted and leasing. For example, secretaries think you should ask the average time it has taken on the Obama administration to approve an application for petroleum drilling was 265 days of law all the books was 30 moving back to what it should have been all the time so this is just part of it. Federal land most of the production from 06 to today has been on private land because of the prohibitive cost time and risk trying to get Lisa's federal land so domination means essentially first domestic resources, and second, the world. Here, that is the voice of Dr. Daniel fine, associate director of the New Mexico center for energy policy.

Also, senior policy analyst at New Mexico State's Department of energy, minerals and natural resources.

You mentioned that how much of a major change.

This is what it had been even possible to go forward with this without the fracking revolution or you have to have the one to be able to change the other have to have the fracking to be able to change the policy, the fracking is part of a complex technology base of it today is not so much fracking fracking was around for many years. However, the advance in fracking due to computerized capacity for computers to see underground to drill in the right direction, but core element now is lateral horizontal drilling followed fracking combined. It was a revolution collateral now leads a horizontal drilling for oil. Through hard shale penetrable shale. The fracking essentially breaks and cracks the shale to allow the pressure injection of Hydro water what the lateral takes 2 1/2 miles. Think of it as a horizontal drilling technique and a multiple sexually will track to penetrate through 1/2 miles in a lateral or horizontal will beings production is change. This is part of the technology revolution today. It's not so much hydrologic hydrocracking, although that's advancing. I was in the Balkan North Dakota last week and I saw new investment in advanced Hydro hydraulic fracking and the new lateral length.

That's the key know one person is going to be following this as the issue moves forward is Dr. Daniel fine, associate director of the New Mexico center for energy policy senior policy analyst with the New Mexico State Department of energy, minerals and natural resources. Thanks much for joining us like you and will have on Carolina Journal radio interest.

Are you wondering where our country is headed while so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government.

While time is passed since they let our country the issues and challenges, endure its living history, living history events during two incredible actors Monday evening November 20. Brought to you by the organization dedicated to advancing freedom, the John Locke foundation find that's John Locke with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening November 20 at the Museum of history in Raleigh tickets $10 per person but just five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh November 20. Hope to see you there.

North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lock foundation and Carolina Journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina Journal.

Follow us on Twitter at John lock in the sea and at Carolina. Journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina Journal.

Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news if it's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina Journal have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina Journal. Follow us on Twitter at John Locke NC and at Carolina. Journal did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate past the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to assess the John Locke foundation. So here's how it works long time to Amazon smile. It's the same Amazon you know same products same prices is much better. Amazon donates .5% of the price of your eligible purchases to pass the John Locke foundation to try to be sure to designate the Locke foundation is a nonprofit, you want to support. It's that easy.

So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation will connect Carolina Journal radio I Mitch coca. Some members of the University of North Carolina's board of governors want to increase their campuses. Focus on college affordability new board member Tom Fetzer recently explained the resolution he prepared for the full board.

This is a unit supported governors resolution of a college education more for whereas median household income in North Carolina increased 17% since 2006 and roughly the last 10 years and whereas UNC system tuition increase 91% since 2006, 500% more than the increase in household income and whereas 61% of UNC system graduates have an average student loan debt exceeding $25,000 each and whereas UNC system governed by the board of governors is charged by the North Anna Constitution to provide a college education. Quote is free is practical to the people. North Carolina therefore be it resolved that the unit supported governors will endeavor to reduce tuition and fees. All our members, preserving and enhancing the quality of education provided therein to help my college education more affordable and therefore accessible accessible to the people we serve. Board member Joe not urge caution as his colleagues addressed Fetzer's resolution offered reduce tuition and low tuition as long as we understand that excellence is not cheap involved.

We have different fears and different levels of universities, some of our universities if they're going to maintain their national and international status and standards recognized for excellence at the very highest level of academic endeavor, we cannot do that without funds. I just want to make all in favor. Tuition is low as it can possibly be.

But we can starve universities in the name of free tuition or whatever and expect our universities to continue our top level to continue to be right and recognized national and international board member Tom Goolsby liked the resolution. He explained one reason why he supports an increased focus on reducing Us to wish one big item that I noticed all the Chancellor's key Enron was a financial assistance and how leader that is really darn sure is needed when you double tuition cost on your students over a 10 year period. As governor Fetzer said 500% more than we saw. The median income in households go well I don't know how you justify that during all the economic Malays and everything else. We had going on to to increase tuition like that you would see board of governors ended up endorsing the resolution unanimously will return with more Carolina Journal radio and about real influence.

You either have it or you don't and at the John lock foundation.

We do, and that's not bluster in a private survey of more than 250 North Carolina political insiders 87% said we influence them either a great deal good amount.

So while others talk and complain. We get to work providing research solutions and help our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control.

Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse that is the envy of every other state. Our research is actually help policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you earn.

Expand your choice of schools for your kids.

Widen your job opportunities and improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future. The John Locke foundation were dedicated to making North Carolina first and freedom were dedicated to you. Look at that Carolina Journal radio I Mitch coca North Carolina has seen a number of positive conservative reforms in recent years linked to taxes, government spending, regulatory relief, expanded school choice. One group that is raising awareness about positive reforms is Americans for prosperity, AFP state director Donald Bryson joins us now to discuss the latest effort to highlight Carolina's success story Donna, welcome back. Thanks for having me on your radio talking about a particular effort to promote North Carolina success stories called NC real solutions tells what that is will this is a project that started back in 2012 right after the first run of tax, regulatory reforms happen with what headed was that when the new conservative Gen. assembly of a lot of things happening that point early on the project focusing on how tax form for small businesses but prickly. Also, allowing the temporary and amusing" sales tax increase was allowed to sunset in the sales tax went down, but at some time. We balance the state budget and provide more funding for state-funded teachers across the state. But since 2012, 2011 we had four rounds of tax reform past we've had regulatory reform bills passed every year except for 2016 was created three private school choice programs eliminated the cap on the number of charter schools in the state. A lot of good things have happened in the state of North Carolina, unfortunately, have some media presence and state talk about that earlier this year on Junior first of 2017. As an example of the income tax rate for every North Carolina and went down, but instead headlines in the Charlotte Observer were about how the sales tax base was expanded in a tussle.

Nothing about income tax rates going down while the sales tax base and expand in their move into a bit more of a of the consumption-based tax system. There is a story about North Carolina's economy is booming with one of the fastest growing economies in the nation. We created more than 360,000 jobs, our unemployment rate as of Friday Friday, August 18 North Carolina Department of Commerce reported are important rate is 4.1% which is far cry from when we had the third highest unemployment rate in the nation.

At the height of the great recession. 11.5%, subcellular correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but there is a very strong correlation with these tax forms regulatory reforms going along with this economic boom, worsening North Carolina and these are all good pieces of news and Americans for prosperity is collecting them and highlighting them in a particular spot.

Is that right that's right, we are relaunching our NC real solutions project in the past. It is been more of a will run a TV ad sort of thing, but trying to create a higher quality educational process.

With this, so there is a website now. We revamp the people can go there and were to rule out different e-books about tax policy and regulatory policy and education policy and highlight recent offensive happened in North Carolina. Along with that will have a comprehensive grassroots approach will will be knocking on doors and making phone calls all around statements and advocating for policy will be trying to educate people and policies that have already passed will also have town halls all around the state and run a lot of vigilance to promote the website. We are chatting with Donald Bryson.

He is North Carolina State Dir. for Americans for prosperity, and Donald. How important is it to get the word out and we talked about the fact there have been a number of interesting and important reforms, but not a whole lot of attention about them within the traditional media you get the sense when you're out knocking on doors, talking to people. The North Carolinians know that these things have happened.

No, I don't get the sense that they know that it happened people that do note of happiness versus the everyday North Carolinian on people that are very politically engaged other your precinct chair for the local Republican Party or their very involved local tea party may know what has happened at the state level. But what happens with a lot of people as they will have what I call Fox News syndrome where if it's not going on in Washington or somewhere on the international stage. They don't know that it's happened because the 24-hour news cycle doesn't cover state policy.

But if you're on the side of people that are fighting for economic freedom.

Nothing is really happening nationally has happened nationally for 19 years, getting going back into the Bush ministration but at the state level.

It's absolutely advancing North Carolina as an example of that. But you are saying that all across the country in other states where you have budget reform and labor reform in Wisconsin you have pension reform in Iowa, Kentucky and Missouri vote in West Virginia all went right to work and what's right work policy mean for those states. Freedom is advancing in the states. The promise and nobody in the states knows about. You mentioned the impact of the media, but another reason why you might not be hearing so much about these things is the fact that this is good news and stuff that's happening kind of behind the scenes without a whole lot of conflict. Once the once the ideas actually get through the Gen. assembly and had been debated. Don't see people out there saying no.

I'm mad because the taxes have gone down know I'm mad because there are fewer regulations of these types of things that are good news that happened sort of behind-the-scenes that's absolutely true in and it's also your plausibility problem is it plausible that the general. Some would raise your taxes or load taxes was possible. They probably increase them because their elected officials and will hate politicians right but on the other side. They actually did cut everybody's taxes sales tax rate is lower than it was 2011 everybody's income tax rate is lower than it was in 2011 2013 2014 the corporate tax rate is lower slip of states that have a corporate tax rate from 600 zero envious of the states, but of the things that do have one North Carolina's lowest in the nation and people don't know that they don't know what it means and nobody is trying to draw a correlation between hey these correlate pretty closely with some of the economic boom worsening North Carolina.

We are our job numbers are amazing in your wage growth is in his increased so much so that your 2016 it was announced that we were and have another revenue surplus at state level and the Department of commerce that point said this is largely because of wage growth throughout the state. Oh my gosh before making more money and having to pay more taxes. That's good news for the state of North Carolina but nobody is highlighting the good news and were trying to fill that gap in communication. Some people will hear us and cynically think that we usually hear all of this stuff around election time, even if the group is is officially nonpartisan. You only hear this stuff around election time, but you're talking about raising awareness here, not in the thick of a campaign fight but just sort of outside of that normal process. Actually, it's important that people be aware of the public policy process and what not only what is happening.

What's being debated. This is this is not an advocacy effort.

This is an educational effort to talk about policies that have already passed.

People just don't know about it.

It's not in the thick the campaign fight were not thinking anybody about for any votes or signing any bills or anything like that is just Haley's policies past here shortly economic impact from that, we think it's a positive thing but it's messes that's not getting out and we hope you not to be too clich about it. We actually think that tax reform budget reform in education reform are providing North Carolina's economy with real solutions rather than trying to prop up the economy with incentives and corporate welfare and other things which are still problems in North Carolina, but the real economic impact coming from these good policies or highlighting.

You mentioned that name once again and see real solutions of people want to learn more worse they go to NC real more integral are insecure but just keep in mind and see real solutions. That is the voice of Donald Bryson North Carolina state director of Americans for prosperity.thanks much for joining us.

Thank you so much. This is a project of Americans for prosperity foundation okay very good will have more on Carolina Journal rate just are you wondering where our country is headed while so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.

That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government.

While time is passed since they let our country the issues and challenges, endure its living history, living history events during two incredible actors Monday evening November 20. Brought to you by the organization dedicated to advancing freedom, the John Locke foundation find that's John lock with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening November 20 at the Museum of history in Raleigh tickets $10 per person but just five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh November 20. Hope to see you there. Welcome back Carolina Journal radio I Mexico guy.

Our next guest recently wrote an article for the John Locke foundation under the title property rights are cool. Again, the specifics dealt with the recent discussion among town leaders in the coastal community of Carolina Beach. The author of that article Julie Tisdale. She's the John Locke foundation's city and County policy analyst.

Welcome back to the program thinking it to first of all why did this issue from Carolina Beach attract your attention. What this is really exciting to see because I'm always excited when I see town Council local government that is doing things that protect property rights and seem to be moving in the right direction and this was an example of that kind of back anything from Carolina Beach. I was happy to see that they were considering some restrictions and possibly easing this restrictions in Carolina Beach for property owners, and specifically the idea was on something called accessory buildings before we get into the details. Tell us what an accessory building is an accessory building is a building that you build on your property that's not your house so it's a shed in the backyard. It's a detached garage. It's those sorts of building and it could be anything but it's not the main house and it's not attached to the main house. It's a freestanding building that's also on the property.

Lots of people have them in town Council members and Carolina Beach had some concerns that perhaps their rules for accessory buildings were too stringent right to say they had served three main rules in place.

Blessing to main rules in place three issues, but two main rules.

One was the height accessory dwelling on accessory buildings can't be more than 15 feet tall building a one story building, but it does allow you to say add an apartment over a detached garage which is something that lots of people like to do or or workout room or an office or any of those things. So there is a height restriction.

The other was about footprint so the accessory buildings footprint couldn't be larger than 25% of the footprint of the main dwelling on a small lot.

That's not a big deal, but on a really large lot that could be an issue if you wanted to build quite a large say detached garage with some things attached to people are doing really weird things like building attack on the back. It doesn't increase the heated space, but it doesn't creep increased the footprint of the primary dwelling which allows you to build a bigger accessory building. It was just a silly and then there was 1/3 issue that was beyond sort of size restrictions, but how these accessory buildings could be used rights. It is a question about whether or not you could rent them out suffuse it as an office.

It's not an issue. If you're using if you said about apartment on can you rent that is it can only be used as certain guest space or maybe somewhere for a child to stay adult child or could you actually make money off of this and rented out to people. So that was that plenty of discussion about this in Carolina Beach. What did you find from that discussion and what was your take on their extending it back to be considered by the relevant committees into their there were no final decisions seems positive to me. They think that probably the height restriction of 15 feet is unnecessary. So they're talking about raising that to 25 feet.

That was a staff recommendation.

They seem favorable to not allow you to build a two-story building seeking build something crazy in the backyard. It would allow most people to do the sorts things they want to do. They also talked about lifting the footprint restriction is allowing people to build something with a little larger and not have to do things like add a deck onto the back of the house. I'm so unbent at this point.

They said let's ease these restrictions. Let's make it easier for people to use their property the way they wish. The third point about whether or not to rent Space is the one that they're sending it back to the relevant committees to really consider in-depth and there are some legitimate concerns. There main concern is that currently Carolina Beach is approaching capacity on their water and sewer infrastructure and clearly if you increase the housing stock which this might do, then you could have problems. However, there already looking at having to upgrade their water and sewer systems because they are are already close to capacity.

They're going to have to expand in the next few years. Anyway it seems to me that this is a great opportunity to go back and really sort of look at doing a major expansion build extra capacity beyond what they expect that they'll need right now. To accommodate this sort of increased freedom for property owners. We are chatting with Julie Tisdale. She is the city and County policy analyst for the John Locke foundation and author of this recent report that you can find it.

John with the title property rights are cool. Again we been talking a lot about the specifics here of this debate in Carolina Beach, but generally one of the things that you point out your column that it's great to see these town leaders looking at issues of freedom and property rights and not just looking at ways to place new limits on the people live within the town.

Absolutely I love that that the town was asking some of the fundamental question about whether this was unduly burdensome on property owners and whether we should actually could actually lift those restrictions and allow people more freedom to do with their property. What they wish. And that's a really fundamental principle, and Carolina Beach seems to be respecting it so that was very encouraging to see. Often we see towns moving in the opposite direction.

Do you see any other towns who are having similar debates about the accessory buildings or similar issues sit, this thing is happening right across the state. It is happening and I wouldn't say every town, but many many towns. Last year I was dealing with the exact same issue in Raleigh and there are parts of Raleigh where people have a lot of these accessory dwellings and have been renting them out sometimes served under an air B&B sort of arrangement and has been technically illegal, but nobody's enforcing it. People are doing it and said the city was looking at whether they should regulate that and there was a lot of debate. Yes, this debate is happening right across the state and indeed across the country and this is a really important issue and so I'm glad to see Carolina Beach taking the lead in this way as these communities are dealing with these types of issues that are there any bedrock or fundamental principles that you from your free-market perspective. Hope that city officials are keeping in mind so property rights. If people should be able to do what they wish with their own property is a really fundamental one other really important thing here is that there were some real issues around water and sewer other issues that arise that are legitimate, yet without noise.

What about trash.

What about parking. All of those things are fair questions to be asked that I think we is important that cities and counties are asking if there are other ways to address those issues usually are already noise ordinances there already rules that can be enforced about parking.

So if we can use the least restrictive certain means of addressing the actual issue, rather than just its blunt instrument of you can't rent out the dwelling space at all. So really targeting the actual issue, rather than putting broad restrictions on people's use of the property in the brief time that we have left. If other communities are thinking about dealing with these issues is Carolina beach setting a good template for them to follow.

So far I think so will see what they come back with in terms of these regulations around rentals on but certainly in their approach to height and footprint on and just asking questions about whether we can free up property owners, then yes, they are they are doing the right things. That is the voice of Julie Tisdale. She is the city and County policy analyst for the John Locke foundation we been talking about this recent discussion in Carolina Beach about the use and regulation of accessory buildings if you'd like to learn more. You can read the column that Julie is written about the topic. It's title property rights are cool again.

You can find it at John lock.thanks Julie thinking that's all the time that we have for this week's program. Please join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program about the John Locke learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke call 66 GLS 16655346 recent airline Journal radio nation airline is all opinions expressed on this program nearly mentioned about Michelle or other foundation 390 main airline sponsored Carolina radio again

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