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April 6, 2020 8:00 am
The COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic is reshaping lives in North Carolina, across the country, and around the world. The John Locke Foundation is helping N.C. leaders respond to challenges linked to the pandemic. CEO Amy Cooke discusses freedom-forward ideas JLF is promoting to help the state. She also assesses the impact on people’s wallets, job opportunities, and plans for the future. Ohio University economics professor Richard Vedder has spent more than five decades teaching in college classrooms. He’s had a front-row view of higher education’s problems. Vedder discusses his concerns in the recent book Restoring the Promise. During a recent visit to North Carolina, he shared key themes from the book. State lawmakers want to make it easier for military veterans and their spouses to work in this state. You’ll hear highlights from a recent legislative debate about loosening occupational licensing restrictions for those connected to the military. Before COVID-19 hit the American economy, observers already were thinking about the trajectory of the American economy. Paul Cwik, professor of economics at the University of Mount Olive, applies what’s known as Austrian business cycle theory to offer pre-coronavirus projections for the future. N.C. public schools will remain closed to students at least through the middle of May. That means families across the state are transitioning to online instruction. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research and director of education studies, discusses challenges and opportunities linked to technology-based education.
From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio I Muskoka during the next hour Donna Martinez that I will explore some major issues affecting our state more than 50 years in a college classroom gave one economics professor, a front row view the problems plaguing higher education will hear his prescription for restoring the promise of college. State lawmakers want to make it easier for military veterans and their spouses to work in North Carolina you hear their plans to loosen occupational licensing restrictions before the COBIT 19 pandemic observers were already thinking about the American economy's trajectory. You hear one expert assessment of the business cycle. Speaking of covered 19 it's forcing public school students across the state to engage in online learning will discuss some of the challenges of moving away from brick-and-mortar schooling and sticking with the pandemic. Donna Martinez joins us with more on that topic.
She has the Carolina Journal headline all North Carolina public schools are shut down and it's much the same for many businesses, restaurants and hotels in our state either closed or operations that severely curtailed covert. 19. The coronavirus has transformed life in this state. And in this country in ways that we never really imagined possible. All of this challenging North Carolina lawmakers and Gov. Roy Cooper to make numerous consequential decisions. Amy Cook is the CEO of the John Locke foundation. She joins me now to talk about this very unique situation.
Amy welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me again Donna. The one thing that people should understand is that when elected officials on the legislature and the governor get together and they start trying to figure out how do they respond to what were seeing in our state. They are not to make those decisions in a vacuum and that is because researchers here at the Locke foundation of Artie put together a package of recommendations and we hope that the follow those absolutely you bring up a great point.
I'm legislators. Lawmakers elected officials. They have to make decisions about so many things on any given you in a normal year, let's just say normally they may have hundreds of bills to consider which is why a resource. Like the Locke foundation is so incredibly important and we have 30 years of intellectual capital that we that were now drawing on and that lawmakers can draw on for the last 30 years we've been providing sound public policy solutions for what ever situation elected officials have found themselves in. And right now were in this unique situation as we all know, and so as lawmakers were trying to grapple with this, what are we going to do the policy innovators here at the Locke foundation went to work immediately was pretty it was pretty amazing to watch as the CEO.
I couldn't be more proud because I think I talked to them. We had this conversation on a Thursday and they worked all through the weekend so we started putting up policy solutions for them to consider the following Monday. That's how quickly they were able to turn around there's a couple reasons for that one 30 years of of providing policy solutions so these are people who know exactly what they're doing. Also, many of the ideas that we had suggested before are things that would make it easier for government and for private businesses to deal with this crisis. Reducing regulations especially like the certificate of need law so that doctors and hospitals could make decisions as opposed to going to the state to get permission their worship. Telemedicine was never we've been working on telemedicine and here it is. It is telemedicine's moment in time so we had actually been laying that foundation for a very long time 30 years of work 30 years of intellectual capital. So when when this popped up and nobody can see anything like this.
Nobody expected pandemic ever right but but but 30 years of laying laying the foundation of sound public policy. We had we were able to to put those those ideas together and get them up quickly.
I will cite the good news for North Carolina is because of some of the recommendations the Locke foundation had saved over the last 10 years about responsible budgeting. Fortunately our state. North Carolina is in a better position financially to deal with this crisis than many other states, so we should be thanking our elected officials for for for being fiscally responsible.
In the decade prior that we now can deal with the situation that we find ourselves in.
Right now I think your point about 30 years of research and analysis of these issues is so important because when the researchers realized that we were facing this they didn't have to start from scratch. Many of the researchers said okay we know about these key areas that lawmakers are going to have to decide what to do, if anything, and we can draw upon what we already know and make some recommendations. And so it was tremendous to see that all of that work. That groundwork was so important as North Carolina faces just historic situation here so I'm all of this work. The course is firstname.lastname@example.org for folks.
If you would like to log on and take a look at some of these very specific recommendations. You can do that very easily. At one thing to that. True, it wasn't just that we did it for North Carolina to so we were ahead of the curve on getting out there because we had that we had all of that intellectual capital we already painted but other states look to us to other states looked at what we did and actually used our ideas and to for their own states so leading in North Carolina also leading for other state. It's just what we do we share that information is out there like you said John locked out of work but but it was our impact is being felt in states across the country and Amy to once we all get through this and were back to quote normal what were hoping, of course, is that some of these issues that have now become front and center about rules and regulations and how they impede your ability to access healthcare and health professionals when you need it the most. Things like that and and at the red tape that prevents a business from being able to get out there and take care of what consumers want and need. Were hoping that some of those changes made in a time of crisis will become permanent because they simply make sense. Absolutely because they're just good ideas.
Their great ideas get rid of the certificate of need.
There's no reason a doctor should have to ask the state permission to get equipment that he or she knows they need to it that they need to treat their patients. There is no reason for us not to have telemedicine. There's no reason for for a patient to not be able to access another doctor across state lines through telemedicine. All of those things that are good in a crisis or just good public policy and not only is this a situation about public policy and recommendations, but this is very personal and NAB. You and I have have talked a lot about this, along with everyone here at the Locke foundation never seen anything like this never in my wildest dreams would I have thought that I would be facing the economic crisis that this country is facing at my parents who are now both deceased, grew up during the depression and they knew what it was like to not have a job and that they were dirt poor literally and not have something to eat now we are not in that that dire circumstance in this country. Thank goodness, but were facing things that many of us never could have imagined. You bring up a great point. My parents came of age in the depression as well and I remember when my grandmother this might my dad's mom when she died. They found what we would call hoarding today up in her attic speak of right because because she said I never want to be without again and I will a personal story personal story for mate. My daughter is a hairstylist make significant money in a high-end salon in in Colorado and she emailed me the other techs who are texting, said this is been really humbling for me. All these jobs that I thought were beneath me. She said I'm willing to do. She's a personal shopper with instant part. She's she's doing hair in people's homes. She is trying to make ends meet. Anyway, she can't sue. We don't even know what the new normal is going to be. But what we do know is that we are having to react and actually for us here at the Locke foundation try and anticipate what is going to happen in the future so we can continue to provide the sound public policy solutions Amy Cook is CEO of the John Locke foundation.
She's also the publisher of Carolina Journal Amy stay with as much North Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina.
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Journal.com once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you. Welcome back. Carolina drove radio I Michiko got Richard Vedder has spent more than five decades in a college classroom, giving him plenty of opportunities to witness what's wrong with higher education, now the Ohio University economics professor is documented his concerns the compiled in the book, restoring the promise that it recently discussed the books themes in Raleigh. Speaking to the Martin Center for academic renewal.
He joins us now to share themes from that speech. Why did you write restoring the promise higher education has been having increasing problems they've had problems for years, but those problems have been growing in magnitude of one statistic that was already obvious when I was starting to write the book and is even more so now is that we have nearly 2 million fewer students going to college than we did in the year 2010, so there is actually people are starting to say no to college and in the course of question is why and well tuition fees are obviously rising dramatically that slow down a little bit in the last few years, but for the affordability issue has grown since my last book that I wrote on this general topic way back in 2004. All we have a employability crisis of sorts. A lot of kids are getting degrees, but when I go out to get jobs, even in this hot labor market were in right now they get jobs there on unemployed but they're often working at Starbucks or foresters are there working at Walmart or Home Depot or some of store like that and they're not getting jobs using the skills that are usually associated with a college degree. The last big problem is a learning problem. We don't think much about it ours.
Kids really learning a lot.
While there college in Arlington leaving with a lot more than they came in learning in a way that would make them better citizens would make them more better, productive workers make them more honest, greater integrity, 200 what is at the getting out of college was.
This is often very difficult to measure very hard to measure. But what there some's little bit of evidence says that maybe the learning his lesson should be college leaders see a problem. I think the community college community has been slow and recognize the problem because they've been protected they get money from state governments. They get money from private philanthropists to get special tax breaks that protected in the private economy. A few goof her make a mistake you learn pretty quickly about just taken the higher Ed community a while to realize what's going on but now that's what I just said is still true. A lot of very thinly endowed schools particular private schools get no state money are finding that we don't. We can't make it anymore and so some of them are starting to close to close to the same with sort of lower quality. State universities public support of higher Ed is waning a little bit so Richard Vedder is author of restoring the promise. What should we do about these problems in higher education. It's easy to criticize. This is hard a lot of things it in a perfect world I can name a lot of things that should happen.
That probably won't happen because of the nature of the American political system, and some might say it's the imperfections in our democratic process are not a political scientist to let others make that judgment, but there are some things that we could do the single one thing that I think is been the biggest problem on the cost affordability front has been the federal student financial assistance programs that were put in. Well, I suppose you could say started 1944 with the G.I. Bill, but didn't really become much of a factor until the 70s to the 1970s and in the last 40 years. Those have grown enormously led to high tuition fees college as a razor fees to grab the money that is available to the that they can borrow. This is caused a lot of problems, including things like this administrative load. I mention all this is come about because of high tuition fees. It would not happen. Otherwise I don't think so. We got to do some about to change that environment.
In a perfect world we would phase out the federal student loans are private solutions to the problem will will you buy a car.
My house you you don't go to the government to buy the house you go to someone else and you can do the same thing with college education.
We used to do it that way.
Even now author of third or so people go to college. Even now, don't borrow any money, so we need to change that. That would be where I would start. You also recommend giving departments or even professors themselves, shares of university revenue based on student enrollment. Adam Smith in the wealth of nations as well as teaching is gone downhill at Oxford these days because now the professors are hired by the University in there that they get their money. No matter how good of teachers. They are not a used to be the kids students gave their money to the professors who then used those money to feed themselves, that was revenue and maybe we need to go back to. You could call it an individual contractor model where professors contract with some central administration to provide their services, but where most of the fee revenue goes to the professors and that they turn around, kick some money back to the central administration to rent buildings and pay for the library and a few administrators that you really need. We have vastly too many administrators but to so no, we need to rethink the model let and that that that's an old very old way of doing and some people look to things like online education into electronic since there some promise in those areas are so but I think the sum of the old-fashioned ideas like the one I just mentioned also have considerable promise will the University exist as we know it. 3040 50 years from now is probably going to be quite a bit of change of lot unlike some, I do think their traditional school will exist. People go to college for a multitude of reasons.
They go force socialization.
They go to for the same reason people join clubs. The traditional liberal arts college or regional universities, and even major state universities will I think will exist, 30, 40 years from now there may be's. There will be some changes there will be more role for online education for different ways of communicating, but people want to to to differentiate the best from the average in the mediocre and the certification little piece of paper that we hand out the diploma is probably not the most efficient way doing and we could spend $200,000 earning this little piece of paper will probably find a cheaper way of doing it, and a more efficient way, but we still need that certification could still the employers of the world want to know who is good and who is less good. And colleges do serve a useful role in determining that that's Richard Vedder, Prof. of economics at Ohio University and author of a book on higher education reform titled restoring the promise North Carolina drought radio. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now.
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We had not been really brought into the process to receive report so is a good feature of this legislation. It now brings us into the process. Wells questioned the proposed 30 day timeline for expedited licensing. Is it your belief that 30 days is an expedited process 30 days I think is a process if you take in consideration the rest of the work of the boards are probably going to this a reasonable time for them to move the application receded and moving through the process so well there still going older applications think there's a reasonable time there time at the station. All short, but it may be that 30 days is so what you can really expect to be reasonable to give the wills explain the key reason for his concern when I move into the dormant state.
That was my 11th residency. We've had a bit of a nerve here about what happens when you have to move already devices 30 days is a long and government. Maybe not, but in my world.
30 minutes is expedited. Three days is reasonable.
We need to talk about this Republican representative John Fraley asked about spouses of military retirees.
I happen to have a constituent, whose husband has recently retired military, and they moved to North Carolina she say formerly on the board of clinical mental health counselors in Colorado, former chair of the board out there has an active and valid license and is being told that she has to put in like 2000 hours with a counselor in order to get her license in North Carolina. Now she wouldn't follow this because they recently retired from the military, but I'm sure that's going on with these people is also going on in the military's ridiculous you been listening to highlights from a recent legislative debate focuses on a build speed occupational licensing for military spouses term for Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.
And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes firstname.lastname@example.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with us. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to email@example.com/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy is the economy doing well doing poorly how can we tell our next guest offers a perspective that's different from the ones you're likely to see on cable TV and in political press releases.
He is Dr. Paul Swick basis Institute fellow and BB&T Prof. of economics and finance at the University about all of welcome back. The program is good to be here you come at it from a perspective as I mentioned, not necessarily the one that you're going to hear from the talking heads on cable TV or read in press releases or even a lot of columns of the papers. This is one that's based on the Austrian business cycle theory tell us about that will move through the business cycle.
According to the Austrians is different than what we see in the mainstream. It has fairly old tradition that goes all the way back hundred years little bit more than 100 years and it basically has five stages.
It says that we start with an injection of credit into the system, usually through central bank but good can come from other places, this injection of credit will distort interest rates, which will cause entrepreneurs to behave in a manner which will is most typical of them were going to invest, but their investments aren't good investments. In fact, we call them mall investments are bad investments. Now we don't know that at the time but will reveal itself later, and then eventually this bubble will build and we seen a couple of bottles in the last couple business cycles.
Now is the bubble builds. It seems like times are graded with low unemployment. We have high investment with high profits looks fantastic for everyone, but eventually the party has to come to the end there is a crunch, now the crunch can take place in one of two forms but usually takes both forms sequentially, but it starts with the credit crisis or in search of the real credit crunch, but will have both credit and real resources being squeezed at this opera turning point and we see that these entrepreneurs who been doing really really well all of a sudden making the same mistake at roughly the same time and only the wrong direction.
The question is why. Well, the answer is because they were fooled.
We were getting the wrong signal and these interest rates in these prices were so fully entrepreneurs and now it all comes crashing down in what we call a recession or a liquidation phase and so the liquidation phase then is where the system has to reassert itself. It has to clear out all of these mall investments.
That's a painful process and if were able to clear out all the mall investments in and set a firm foundation. It allows us to all grow which is what we call the recovery and so those five stages you have the expansion mall investment boom crunch of the top of the recession and then finally the recovery are what constitutes the Austrian through the business cycle that is the voice of Dr. Paul Swick who is a professor of economics and finance at the University about all up so setting the stage with that theory of how business cycle works. What can we tell about where things stand with the economy today will were were in a boom. I think it's an artificial boom. When will that opera turning point come about, well, nobody knows. I mean if we do it would be well very very wealthy. That would be wonderful for us, he would have to talk to me on the show are you on the fun. But what we would see is the unemployment is very low right now of relatively low inflation, the interest rates are starting to become a little worrisome. We see the yield curve which is looking different maturities. We have the short end and then we have the Long Island and in a crisis receive short-term rates can spike up and the been starting to in shopping facts, the yield curve is fairly flat right now, which could lead to an inverted yield curve and then for 6/4 later. Typically what we see is that we're in a recession.
More troubling than the fellow is all input prices and we see that input prices have been steadily rising over the last couple of years and why is this a problem because input prices squeeze profit margins in its profit margins get squeezed. Businesses start to turn this officer to scramble start to go bankrupt and when we see an upturn in the bankrupt bankruptcy of these firms. That's when we are sliding into a recession. Given the fact that were in a boom based on the what the theory suggests that sooner or later will go to have this crash. What can or should we do about you mean you and I do mean we as the government either what you would die and the government will first. First of all, if were looking you and you what we want to do what I want to do what you should do is is to get ourselves out of.as best as we comes with your credit card. If you have payments that are all just just pay those off try to take advantage of low interest rates right now consolidated all and don't spend outside of your means, right rain it in. I know times are good right now. Don't don't go crazy.
No, what about for public policy well is a couple of things that the federal government should be doing in the monetary side, the central bank, the Federal Reserve needs to stop printing so much money stop expanding the money supply is the is been out of control.
Know why wise up and happening because they have to support the spending of the federal government. The federal government has not reined in spending. We haven't seen surplus since the 90s.
It's been long overdue. We need to curtail this expansion and you several why do we have to curtail this expansion while running a deficit of over $1 trillion right now we have a national got that's $23 trillion and climbing with no end in sight. It cannot continue this way for lots of different reasons, some of which might be with China and other foreign countries all the just internally we want to do is we want to take care of our own house, put ourselves in financial order and that means cutting back on spending, and all of the forms, the entitlement spending the stuff of the call discretionary the nondiscretionary all needs to be reined in were only bringing in $3.3 trillion in revenue were spending over 4 trillion. It's way too much. We need to bring in the brief time that we have left people who will look at the economy and say things are going along pretty well, even if there right something along the lines of the recession is going to be coming about in the not-too-distant future. Well, that's right.
And since times are good right now.
We should be in this mode to get our own house in order to be easier for us both as individuals and as governments of state governments is as federal government to be able to take that growth and pay down any of our our debt and get ourselves on on firm balance because once the recession hits. We will see that all of these activities will become much more difficult to do.
Creditors will be calling for us and we will lose so much more if we don't take prudent steps today. Prudent steps today always sounds like a good idea.
That is the voice of Dr. Paul Swick Mises Institute fellow and BB&T Prof. of economics and finance at the University of Mount Olive. Thanks much for joining us.
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We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio and Anna Martinez, Roy Cooper has ordered North Carolina's public schools to close until May 15 Executive Order is one element of the Gov.'s actions in response to covert, 19 the coronavirus outbreak. Of course around the world in our country and here in North Carolina.
Dr. Terry stoops is a vice president for research.
He's also the director of education studies for the John Locke foundation. He joins us now to talk about the impact on school age kids Terry welcome back to the show. Thank you.
What your reaction to this order, May 15. Schools are closed. I think the May 15 state is actually very good idea. There were a lot of states that have eliminated the possibility of coming back for this current school year.
Some states have Artie declared that the 2019 2020 school year is over and that we need to start that they need to start thinking about 2020 2021 school year, but this at least gives North Carolina an opportunity to resume the school year. If we find conditions improve rapidly through April and into May. So it's always something that can be revised later, but I think Gov. Cooper was very smart and listening to the state Board of Education Department of Public instruction and their recommendations that may 15th be the date the schools would resume for now we say closed closed in terms of in person attendance.
Things are moving online yeah and and it's complicated because the schools are. Some schools are open providing meal service for our families that don't have access to food, so there technically kind of open for them but for the most part, most instruction has gone online, but to be honest, it's very uneven. There are some teachers that jumped right online and have students working on assignments that they had planned for those students for months. There are some teachers that are now just getting things posted online and starting to communicate with parents and is the father of two school-age children. I could tell you that there are some teachers that are already on the ball and have assignments in the students hands and due dates already planned for those assignments and their other teachers at just haven't sent the kids a thing except maybe a message saying that they're working on and since it is suspected to expect something down the road that's fascinating is is the inconsistency from county to county or is this within county systems. There is an inconsistency. It's from classroom to classroom finding is that there are some teachers that are well-equipped for doing this and there are some subjects that team seem to work very well online. I think math is one subject that can be easily transferred to an online format. There are other teachers that are really struggling with this in their school districts struggling with how to treat these days because there is a debate about whether these are legitimate school days or that they will need to be made up to some teachers are taking attendance, some are not. Summer grading assignments. Summer knots.
So you find a huge amount of variation across the state and what students are being required to do right now and what schools are expecting of them, what roles and with the school principal plate wouldn't be just common sense that a principal would say okay to all of my teachers you have to do X, Y, and Z by this date and you have to do ABC by this date. This is a classic case of passing the buck. The principal, it says that they're waiting for guidance from superintendent. The superintendent is saying that they're waiting for guidance from state education officials and education officials say they're waiting for guidance from the federal government. That's all kind of true there is a lack of information being circulated right now in certain certainly, one can argue a lack of leadership. One of the outstanding issues that a lot of people were thinking about right now is what to do about students that are entitled to special education services.
These are illnesses enforced by federal law where students must receive the services and school districts are liable if these kids do not receive the modifications to their education as outlined in an individualized education plan is a very serious matter.
If you violate an individualized education plan. And we've heard mixed messages from the Department of Education in Washington DC as to whether providing an online education does or does not meet the requirements of special education law will Terry if there some teachers doing things one way and actually doing something, and engaging their students and other teachers are behind, summer grading summer testing. Some are not.
What does that mean going forward. How would we know at the end of the traditional school year. If a child is ready to move on. We won't because estate testing will have been canceled and so any sort of assessment that we would have a student achievements is been eliminated so we will have no idea whether there ready to move or not move on or knots now. It may be sensible for us to eliminate the testing and and I think it probably is a good idea because we wouldn't fare very well with the schools being closed right now but we really have no reliable way of knowing if students are ready for the next grade.
And we have a lot of questions are going to need to answer the summer as to whether kids are going to be in summer school if they are, how are we going to pay for the summer school how we can deal with the fact that our school calendar requires the school year to start on the Monday at earliest the Monday closest to August 26.
We may want kids to start close school earlier to catch up for what they missed their so many moving pieces in this that have to do with federal states law and local education practice that we will not know for sure until we get the all clear and schools open back up what about high school seniors.
How will we know if a high school senior has indeed completed the coursework required to receive high school diploma in North Carolina. Well, some of the recommendations are that they would receive credits for the work that they have done already in their grades as of the days of the date of closure would be their final grade. But of course this leaves all kind of open questions of things like what you do with advanced placement courses. Students that have been preparing all year to take the advanced placement tests in order to get college credit for for the course now has to face the prospect of not being is prepared for the advanced patient placement course as they could've been. Now the AP has announced that they would eliminate the court. Some of the questions on the test to level the playing field for students to be able to take the AP class to take the AP test in order to receive that credit.
But these are justly the questions that many schools and states are struggling to answer right now and proposals of swirling back-and-forth from state education officials and lawmakers as to how to ensure that those students can successfully complete the school year and move on to their postsecondary education or the workplace you're making my hair hurt just to talk about this because it just seems so scattered and granted this is unprecedented so you can't really realistically expect that there would be a quote plan in place for everyone to be able to just transition overnight to online learning.
But what is your biggest concern now. I mean you are former teacher you actually are a founder of a public charter school in White County what your biggest concern really. My biggest concern is those students right now that are in courses that will be tested and tested next year. In other words, those foundational courses that they will need to be successful going forward. My oldest is a high school freshman taking math one and is missing a significant amount of instruction in math one and so the question will be how would he be successful in math to those of the biggest concerns I have right now.
Dr. Terry stoops is the vice president for research. The director of education studies for the John Locke foundation Terry thinking thinking that all the time we have for the program.
Thank you for listening on behalf of Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez. Join us next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John log foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donation support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke done call 66 jail left info 166-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina's free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those I did not merely for the station. For more information about the show. Other programs and services of the John line foundation John Locke toll-free at 866 JM would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors.
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