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Carolina Journal Radio No. 868: Lawmakers to return to Raleigh for mid-January session

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
January 6, 2020 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 868: Lawmakers to return to Raleigh for mid-January session

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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January 6, 2020 8:00 am

After a December break, N.C. legislators return to Raleigh this month. They could vote to override Gov. Roy Cooper’s veto of the state budget bill. They also could try to hash out final deals on the farm bill and other legislation left unresolved in 2019. Becki Gray, John Locke Foundation senior vice president, analyzes the upcoming legislative session. The pursuit of diversity on college campuses is hurting American higher education. Heather Mac Donald, fellow at the Manhattan Institute, explains how in her recent book, The Diversity Delusion. Mac Donald shared her concerns during a recent visit to Raleigh for a summit sponsored by the National Association of Scholars. The General Assembly has finalized new reforms to laws involving sexual assault and child sexual abuse. You’ll hear highlights from legislative debate over the measures. Three generations of the Scott family played major roles in N.C politics. Longtime Raleigh News & Observer political columnist Rob Christensen tells the Scotts’ story in the book The Rise and Fall of the Branchhead Boys. Christensen explains how the Scott family story fits within North Carolina’s political narrative. The federal government recently announced that Robeson County had been reinstated to a program called equitable sharing. It allows local law enforcement agencies to use proceeds from asset forfeiture involving federal authorities. Jon Guze, John Locke Foundation director of legal studies, explains why the news is not entirely good. Guze says federal equitable sharing helps law enforcement agencies bypass worthwhile state restrictions on civil asset forfeiture abuse.

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From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Mitch coca during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. The pursuit of diversity is causing major problems for American higher education.

That's according to the Manhattan Institute scholar who wrote a book called the diversity delusion. She shared her concerns recently in Raleigh, North Carolina lawmakers, a finalized new reforms to laws involving sexual assault and child sex abuse you learn details three generations of the Scott family had major impacts on North Carolina politics will chat with a longtime political columnist who tells their story in a recent book and will learn why we should be concerned about a federal program called equitable sharing. It threatens your property rights through civil asset forfeiture. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline North Carolina has implemented transformational reforms in the last decade that have created more opportunities for more people than ever before. The John Locke foundation's and Becky Gray who is a senior vice president while she's been at the table in the trenches at the forefront advocating for Locke foundation policy recommendations that she's been doing that for more than a decade.

Interestingly, she is going to be speaking on Monday here at the John lock foundation about the 2019 year different victories for freedom and how it all works and looks for 2020. Particularly in this hyper partisan political environment. In fact, Becky says that we sometimes forget fiscally sound public policies that promote free markets and limited government and more really the foundation of good government. Becky joins us now.

Welcome back to the program is not alright so 2019 a whole lot of things went went on at the general assembly you are there blow-by-blow but it's interesting that your recap of the year really shows that there has been a multi-year advancement of freedom and liberty. Starting with respect for North Carolina taxpayer exactly and then you know when we look back and if he to just 2019 to evaluate what the conservative policies went forward.

What was it you really need it.

It's only part of the story and part of these really transformation transformational reforms. As you mentioned you since 2011. We have drastically reduced taxes make the tax system fair we've reined in the growth of government much more sensible. We saved money rather than have you know we we not only have extra money we've got money to put aside into savings.

We also rollback regulations were making matters smarter investments in education that impact kids in the classroom and then better investments in infrastructure across the state as well. 2019 continued a lot of thighs but it was a very interesting year and different over the last decade because of the political makeup that we had the session course. We have a Democratic governor. We have a Republican general assembly, but they no longer hold the supermajority said the governor's veto was much more powerful.

This last session in 2019 then it had been in the past is a matter of fact Roy Cooper has vetoed more bills than all previous governors combined.

That gives you an idea of this again very controversy over various please God and has her very quiet is very contentious and the other thing you know, in the introduction you mentioned there was a lot that happened in 2019.

There was a lot that happened, but there was really very little that got done because of this, divide, and we Cooper stopping semi things can't keep the he veto the budget this year and there's been a lot of talk about that when we just remind our listeners and and remount all of us. Governor Cooper has vetoed every single budget that the Republicans are put into play since they had been in power. The difference this year wise. There was not a supermajority of Republicans he held that Democratic caucus hostage through this whole session and get a really made them declare loyalty to him and the party over their constituents. So this is the first year in my memory that we have gone into the new calendar year without a budget in place. You know Becky, you mentioned that the issue of sound fiscal policies and despite the vetoes in the in the back-and-forth over the past few years.

We definitely have seen the Republican-led Gen. assembly really rein in that spending growth and focus on savings and sometimes people might think well savings yeah you can do that. That's kind of you know the icing on the cake, but boy did we see that become a really really important when we had Storm's hurricanes and a lot of North Carolinians and need that money was there. Set aside to help get the money was there and in a $2 billion. That's about 10% of our whole budget is the highest it's ever been in state history and Tina as matter fact when the when the Republicans were doing this and taking some of that surplus money may come as a surprise to some folks at the John Locke foundation rather than saying let's take all that money and give it back to the taxpayers, which is part of this, but we were really at the forefront saying you know we need to do what's really smart is to put money aside in a savings account so like you said if we need it it's there and we think in terms of having that money set aside for as you mentioned a natural disaster the hurricanes that hit the eastern part of the state.

We had storms and flooding in the western part of the state. We had some money there to get people back up on their feet to get businesses back in wanting to get people back to normal. But the reason why that's so important has when we have an economic downturn and we don't know when it's coming, but we know that it is coming. North Carolina is really well positioned to just store whether that kind of storm, then this is probably going to happen. Things totally out of the control of North Carolina lawmakers. This has may be coming from a national perspective, international perspective, but it's still something we're gonna have to deal with and with this, savings aside, we have money to get people back up on their feet. At the very least we can pay our bills. We compare teachers we can pay our police officers we can keep government going without going back to taxpayers who were struggling through economic downturn and asking them to send more money to the state so waning, and that growth of government to a really efficient effective level and having that money set aside so we can meet our obligations when we die native I think is one of the smartest things and one of the smartest reforms that we've done. Talk about good policy distant in my view, and all of this together has made North Carolina national model, but I don't think that we talk enough about the significance of setting money aside and how important it is to have savings and while that was all going on the savings the raining and spending growth really planning for the future. There was also a concerted, multiyear effort to make sure that working North Carolinians were keeping more of what they earned through changes in in tax policy and that to happen for several years, really important.

It's very important.yummy is something that just seems like a sense of fairness and transparency and openness and expectations for government, but the other thing is it's a real different way of looking at things that if people keep more that their money if businesses are able to keep more that money what people are able to keep more that money. That means they can spend a little bit of extra over the holidays.

They can invest in their homes. They can do home improvements.

Businesses can buy a new computer or they can buy new pickup truck with I can hire a new person and said that's the way we've seen this really illustrated over the last 10 years. This is the way the growing economy. This is the way that you get people back on their on their feet. Becky on Monday year to be talking at noon at the John lock foundation about time some of the same issues were also looking ahead to 2020.

By the way, folks. If you can't make it to Raleigh to actually hear and see Becky in person will be live on Facebook you can check us out there. Becky give us a quick sense of 2020 will what you expected when we got to things going on here done of the relayed that her related but separate one as the preparation for the election of course we now know who is running for all his offices in North Carolina were looking at those a lot of conversation about which races are important, which are competitive looking looking at national influences in a house that can affect the election in 2020, but don't forget we also have another short session that scheduled that they're coming back in just about 10 days for the first phase of that we may very well say the budget overridden during that time, but they will have the short session and there's gonna be some policies and some things that are discussed on course will be keeping up with all that is a lot foundation and three Carolina Journal but you know we have another session to get through and some things of looking at continuing the momentum that we've done really addressing some healthcare issues is something that hasn't been addressed is as completely as we believe that it should be and so Becky Gray will be there at the legislature as it all takes shape and of course you can follow her on Twitter as well at Becky great and also at Carolina. Journal and at John lock in. See you can keep up-to-date on what is happening what the policymakers are doing in your name and with your money.

Great thanks and thank you stay with us much more Carolina Journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake news tired of reporters with political axes to grind. Will you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. Journal.com. You'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles.

Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day. Log on to Carolina. Journal.com once, twice, even three times a day. You won't be disappointed.

It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you bookbag Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guy race and gender pandering corrupt the university and undermine our culture that's the stark assessment in the subtitle of a book with the full title, the diversity delusion, and its author joints is now Heather MacDonald was Thomas W Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you so much. You have me on which I appreciate it. So why tackle this topic. The impact of the school diversity and social justice saw on university campuses because it's transforming our world for the worse, I believe, and because I believe very strongly in the value the preciousness of our Western inheritance and that is now under lethal assault on college campuses. Students are being taught not just to hate the great works of Western civilization. But to hate America to hate each other to see oppression where none exists, and so I I wrote this book really out of sorrow and rage sorrow that the things that I love and so many people should value our being subjected to a completely illegitimate attack, claiming that they works like Shakespeare or Milton Ord or Mark Twain are somehow purveyors of lethal bigotry and sexism. A night of ridiculous idea but also just anger that universities which should be the place where students learn to get down there and on their knees in gratitude before our civilization are instead now more and more devoted to teaching students to think of themselves as victims and oppressed apes. A preposterous conceit, but they bring that delusion with them into the world at large and they are transforming it very rapidly somewhat out there is going to be listening saying it can't be that bad.

This has to be hyperbole.

Is it really that bad. Now it's it's really that bad. I'd I travel, I speak a lot of college campuses. Not only am I subjected to the hysterical student mob that feels that any challenge to their claim to be oppressed must come out of bigotry but I'd I asked students what their favorite courses are, what their majors are and it's a very depressing roster nobody studying the humanities anymore and if they are, that's the most shallow of courses you know comic books Cuban comic books or or Hispanic comic books or media studies. There are the school has to work very hard to avoid the penetration of the diversity ideology into its core curriculum into its faculty. Right now the left has the bid on its teeth and is is spreading this idea that the West in general and American particular, are the sources of all of the world's oppression throughout English courses throughout anthropology throughout social sciences.

Throughout sociology throughout political science, if you don't think it's bad, it means you not paying attention and I wish I had that navet and innocence left but I can tell you every single day. If you're following these things every single day brings news of a of a new enormity that is happening somewhere to our traditions to our culture to the things that again are should be precious to all of us. We are chatting with Heather MacDonald, fellow with the Manhattan Institute and author of the book that describes a situation titled the diversity delusion. Colleges of always been liberal left of center. When the start to happen that we got the situation where the basic tenets of Western civilization, and America itself get attacked. I think it began in the 1980s. That's when you had the rise of multiculturalism and of identity politics. I'm very grateful that I was in college in the 1970s, and although I got sucked into a very nonsensical and counterfactual set of ideas and literary theory known as deconstruction, which I'm not can it get into because it's just too bizarre. Nobody would believe it if I described it, but at least in the 1970s, we still read the great books without anybody thinking to gripe that they were written by white male so I got to lose myself in the beauty of Chaucer Edmund Spencer John Milton Alexander Pope William Wordsworth. I wrote my senior thesis on Wordsworth never occurred to me to think that. Well, I'm not reading female writers so you know my identity is not being mirrored back to me know. I read the greatest works of literature being female is not an accomplishment. It is not particularly interesting. But what happened in the 1980s for a variety of reasons that are complex and somewhat mysterious. You had the rise of identity politics most infamously the protests led by Jesse Jackson at Stanford University against Stanford's very modest, undemanding freshman core curriculum that that made some minimal efforts to expose students systematically to the dramatic sweep of Western civilization. But it will read the classics and sorry folks, get over it.

The greatest thinkers in Western civilization, with exceptions of course have been white males who cares, but this was the start of the period where females and minority students claimed that to read white males was oppressive to their identity. So Jesse Jackson led the famous Chad hey hey ho ho Western sieve. His got to go. This was a play on words because Western syphilis that shorthand for this course. But frankly, it was quite in Adam braided what was coming because in fact that I that mentality that sees oppression in beauty and greatness would spread and indeed all of Western civilization would come under attack. You mentioned navet about this situation for folks to get beyond that stage, because they read the diversity delusion or start to pay attention what you hope happens next. Well, I certainly hope that alumni stop giving money to their alma mater's. I can guarantee you unless you've done a heck of a lot of due diligence and you are confident that your English department is not filled with theory-based courses on post-colonialism and intersectional gender studies and white privilege if if you have not confirmed for a fact that it is not doing those things. The chances are very high that it is and the school that you remember does not exist any longer and less year very young, in which case you may be a product of the diversity obsessed Academy, but do not give money to your school unless you know that it is still committed unapologetically and joyfully to passing on our inheritance. What I would hope is that parents actually at this point I think we have to start homeschooling in college and I'm somebody who aspired to be an academic. I'd I wanted to go to school, my life, I aspired to teaching in comparative literature.

I think there is no greater good. No higher life than being an academic and curating these works at this point though, I think we need a homeschooling movement for college because it is such a grotesque waste of money. You have these metastasizing diversity bureaucracies, a consumer culture where very little is being asked of students and they are not being exposed systematically. The great works. I was neither in the 70s. Parents should know that if they want their kids to be to be rigorously exposed. They need to have very hands-on, or again, I think what you have to have some alternative institutions being created will if you want to learn much more about this topic.

You can consult the book. It is titled the diversity delusion. Its author has been our guest Heather MacDonald. Thanks much for joining us. Thank you Mitch Ward, Carolina journal radio just if you have freedom we got great news to share with you now.

You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement@northcarolinaconservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James G.

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You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation will go back Carolina journal radio why Michiko guy unanimous North Carolina Gen. assembly has approved reforms dealing with sexual assault and child sexual abuse among the changes lawmakers closed loop holes linked to old court precedent, North Carolina will no longer be the only state in which a person cannot revoke consent to a sex act reform also clarifies the law involving sex with someone incapacitated by drugs or alcohol. Republican state representative Dennis Riddell helped hammer out the compromise measure. It addresses one of his key issues extending the time period for a victim of child sex abuse to file suit against a predator Carolina law and surely the 21st century in the areas of child abuse, sexual assault, particularly the crime of child sexual abuse. I have received dozens upon dozens upon dozens of emails and letters text messages, phone calls from Rick Jones who been following the progress of our bill dealing with particular child sexual abuse to those victims. I want to say this bill is for you.

If you are a victim of child abuse. This bill is for you if you're an adult of sexual assault.

This bill is for you if you're a victim of child sexual abuse and you had your childhood innocence ripped out of your soul by an adult predator.

This bill is for you in the Senate, Democrat Jake Chaudhary explained his support for the package of reforms stand here to support this bill really is the father of two children, because I believe there is nothing more important than protecting our children from harm. Too often we know stories read stories about child abuse crimes.

And in many instances we discover these crimes go unreported for years. I will highlight just two parts of the bill that I believe are very important to force this legislation, I believe, sends a loud and clear message that any adult in any institution suspects child abuse taking place and if you essentially says if you don't report such abuse. There will be consequences of this legislation puts an end to that cover-up and second, this legislation reworks a statute that protects children online from high risk sex offenders and I believe it does so consistent with the United States Supreme Court decision as well. Among the other items addressed in the reforms.

School personnel will get training about child sex abuse and sex trafficking high risk sex offenders will be banned from online conduct that threatens children attempting to drug someone's food or drink will face new sanctions. It expands the duty of anyone over 18 to report knowledge of a sex crime against the juvenile more Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different.

It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with us. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko guy three generations of the Scott family played important roles in North Carolina state government.

Longtime news and Observer political columnist Rob Christiansen tells their story in the book the rise and fall of the branch at boys. He recently shared highlights from the book for the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury society and joins us now to discuss key ideas from that presentation book about the programs but a while very much so first of all, before we get into the Scott family.

Let's talk about that title with the branch at boys so car Scott, who was elected governor in 1948 was an insurgent candidate heaved the Democratic machine have been running things and they were naming governors from the government for years and eight years in quality or so forth and so car Scott ran against machine which meant we went to accounting to campaign you really could get my boats out courthouse crowd can get from the judges in the clerk's records and the share for who the essentially the Democratic establishment each county so he would do it who who had to back the rural most rule areas. The head of the creeks wars. He said that the head of the branches and and so by the time he got to to the courthouse. It didn't matter that the lawyers and the judges and share for sporting goods have all sporting even accounting from the rural rural people and they called them branch at boys because they were the people live at the head of the branch of the Creek in your book talks about the Scott family, but also as the title suggests a rise and a fall of the branch at boys working to get into the their rise and fall. But let's turn back now to the Scott you mentioned car. Scott, the patriarch of the family. This family, that of having an important role in North Carolina politics for several generations. It did so you know there's a lot of state to have a family that's more important than others. So you think about the birds of Virginia. The Talmage's or George or the Longs Louisiana bushes of Texas. So for Kennedy's Massachusetts and I family it is is is the Scott family North Carolina and had several generations her car. Scott's daddy Robert Scott everyone: former Bob was influential legislator or helping. She states her for his car. Scott was himself elected our culture machine.

36 and Gov. 48 964 his brother Ralph. Scott was one more influential load looks like tors in the 20th century.

His son Bob Scott was elected Lieut. Gov. 64 Gov. 60 Aiden and had a community college system is daughter-in-law Jesse Ray Scott ran for labor Commissioner and his granddaughter make Scott that was elected. Our coach Mr. witches in 2000, which are all know the story you will get to that.

It just bit which ties into the to the fall, but the why do you think it was that this particular family ended up becoming so influential, so it's really hard to imagine today's age over selfies and sushi in a Starbucks what North Carolina life was like back in mid 20th century to clean 30s, 1940s and even in the 1950s.

This was overwhelmingly a rural state, rural and small-town two thirds of people lived in what the Census Bureau said was defined as rural areas and wildlife was pretty good in the towns and cities, were you had all modern amenities. That was not the case in rural North Carolina. So was one among last place in the country to get the roads pay to get power electric power run out the forms to get telephone service. The forms and one of things I talk about this book is is is the difficulty of life that we forget how how remote and difficult rural life was without all these modern amenities was knowledged. Inconvenience is often a matter of life and death, whether you get to the doctor get to the hospital in time that's worth knowing and so Scott's you know they lived fairly modest form house in the middle state he was of it was a dairy farmer all his life that really have left Alamance County.

Even when discovery would go back every week into the form we, as a senator he would come back quite often so he informed the Sentara life. So the very much family but he was able to plug in to a real need.

Either he didn't have to do you not do a whole, or a focus group to find out what people rural people. North Carolina needed they needed some progress. Were there they were in our lives. We talked today about how different the laws are between urban and rural people was even contra sleeping more stark background and he understood the needs and then they were virtually locked him were chatting with Rob Christiansen, the author of the rise and fall of the branch at boys a story of the Scott family and its influence on North Carolina politics. You have alluded to this already, but basically it sounds like. This message was a combination of populism but also what we wrote described is progressivism things together that seems as if that ended up being very appealing to several generations of North Carolinians and did so, but I change so one of things I did as I spent months and months going through the letters of Gov. car.

Scott was like 1948 in the letters of his son got Bob Scott was elected government, 1968 and the tenor of the letters between the father and son 20 year difference just startling the tenor of the letters for the Gov. car Scott like 1948 were we want a activist government help improve the lives of rural people, whether it's more roads are pressuring power companies or building schools 1968 when Bob Scott. His son was elected governor's honorary degree turn its message was from letter after letter because we want the government out of her are of affairs government offer back now. What happened in between is 20 years, several things happen all things school integration happen was occurring when Bob Scott was elected governor integration and major way and that was a very difficult time for four or while people of both races. There was a campus unrest which called on people become much more conservative. Here's here's a story me that that in the year 1969, which is the first year the governor Bob Scott was governor he called out the National Guard for civil unrest nine times in the first six weeks much time around this town for a while. It was last time I governor called out National Guard for civil unrest.

He called nine times in six months plus or other factors going on so you forming a change so you know when course, I was elected. There are roughly 300,000 forms in North Carolina today. The spirit 50,000 so and that the McConnell forms and today their small business with computers. Everything back then were here they were often turn forms are small, struggling farmers. The nature forming change in the state became wealthier and shows estate getting wealthier was pretty poor statement twice century as it is moved into into later years the income food was rising. People felt less need for government. Other factors to but those are several in the brief time that we have left than the third-generation big Scott Phipps gets elected to be the agriculture Commissioner had a fall from grace of because of some electoral related things so make Scott Phipps guy liked our culture Commissioner near 2000 and you end up going to prison for campaign financing irregularities.

The basic problem there was yet got the message that will do it when this when her father and grandfather coming along was there a few campaign laws on the books so those with these regions. The brown paper bag and cash being changed hands and a lot of self-serving stuff going on and they really hadn't generally been understood that these changes took place while there's a lot more to learn in this book. It is titled the rise and fall of the branch at boys. Its author is Rob Christiansen.

Thanks so much for doing I'm doing a lot more Carolina journal radio just a moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more.

We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state. Our research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids.

Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors.

The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation.

Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Martinez 2004, the Robison County Sheriff's office was removed from a federal program called equitable sharing that following the discovery of corruption in the Sheriff's office that eventually led to several criminal convictions on a variety of charges, but in late November, the US Department of Justice announced that the Robison Sheriff's office had been reinstated to the federal equitable sharing program that uses concerning according to our next guest. He is John gives a director of legal studies for the John Locke foundation and a frequent guest here on Carolina journal radio down will compact the program what is equitable sharing. This is a program that the federal government launched in the 1980s under it are state and local law enforcement agencies can take advantage of federal equitable sharing of federal asset forfeiture laws that allow property be taken without charges or convicting the owner of the property with a crime if the if there's cause to believe that the property was used for or derived from a crime under federal drug laws and some other federal laws that property could be taken sold and the proceeds returned to the law enforcement agency that made the seizure. The reason this is appealing to state law local law enforcement agencies and the reason it's a concern to us is because this makes it possible for state law enforcement agencies to circumvent protections that are exists under state law. North Carolina has very good state laws regarding asset forfeiture under our laws before you can take the property you have to prove that it was actually used for the crime and you have to prove it was you have to convict the owner of that crime. Not only that, but under all lost their proceeds have to be used for public education. They Go back to the law enforcement agency that made the seizure of extra under federal law. That's why we say that the equable sure makes it possible for a state local agencies to circumvent arts that are state lost. John does that mean then that federal law trumps in no pun intended trumps state law. Well yes it does of the federal law does trumps state law. In the first place, at least in many cases.

In this case it just makes state law irrelevant because they're operating under federal law, even though there's even though the agency itself is in order to state government.

They're able to use federal law rather than state law to process would take its curious to me why at the state level, it would be deemed to be something that we should protect our citizens from but at the federal level. There's clearly a very different point of view help us understand what's the difference in the two rationales.

Well, I think the differences that we we have a history of being sensible North Carolina and we have a history of protecting our citizens of the way the many other states haven't done and that the federal government certainly doesn't do.

I think it's a testimony to the wisdom of our legislature and it's also kind of a congregation of the Congress and the federal agencies.

How lucrative is this to our Sheriff's office or another agency that that participates in North Carolina in a moment what we'll talk a little bit more about how pervasive this is. Well, it could be quite lucrative. Overall for since we founded in 2018 state and local agencies, North Carolina collected over $70 million through the program as a percentage of their total budget that's probably not that hard but it varies a lot from one agency to another and even though his 70 million stole a lot of money and provides an incentive and this is what we were about most of all, provides incentive to use echo Sherry not to punish criminals but to enrich law enforcement agencies, and that's very concerning and and certainly were not trying to be anti-law enforcement hear anything like that in this discussion. It's just that it does build in an incentive to perhaps look at a case some outside of the actual facts and issues of public safety.

That's right though there's a lot of reasons to not like civil asset forfeiture, which is what this program does the fact that it exposes people to risks even if they haven't committed a crime. The factor to buy some new process when the property is taken, but in my mind, the biggest reason to be unhappy about civil asset forfeiture to be glad we don't have it under state law, worry about the fact that the Fed submitted a very available to the echo Sherry program is that it ties to the corrupt law enforcement agencies. We don't want that to happen. North Carolina other states, Texas, in particular but many other states that have their own civil asset forfeiture laws have seen some terrible abuse real predatory policing or policing for profit.

That hasn't happened to what your because our state laws protect the innocent. We don't want to have it here so that's why it's a shame that this article Sherry goes on we wish we could put a stop to John and my listeners might be thinking, but that's all really interesting, but it sounds kind of them acted to Machen in very technical. Do we have examples of how this is actually played out and impacted the lives of very real people. Well, we certainly do infected. Some of the research republished on this topic will are some specific examples related Endura persons whose house was taken because her son was accused of or suspected of dealing drugs from inside the house he may or may not of been guilty because he was never charged by her house was taken or took or so to spend a lot of money.

She eventually did get it back effects of the efforts of a very good lawyer but should the property in the first place. More importantly, we also have evidence of his corrupt him and what happened the Robison County as an example, presumably they were abusing his power they would have lost it. It's I suppose good that they cleaned up their act and are giving the power back but this is a power that has put start temptation in the way of otherwise all August police departments. We know what that at the federal level.

It's rather interesting. You been writing about the history of this sum at the federal level and damn curious that some administrations view asset sharing.

I'm sorry equitable sharing and asset forfeiture. One way in a different presidential administration can view it very differently. We've had that example recently. Well, it's true that under Obama during the Obama years. They did cut back on article Sherry, which was good but I didn't eliminate it is also true that once Jeff sessions became the Atty. Gen. he reinstituted in full and he likes it up as a lead Donald Trump likes her to but I don't think there's ever been presidential election since this product program started in the 80s that has been skeptical of it or not one to do it. They like it and that's going to go on until I talked to the states really to take measures to protect their own citizens by passing laws to prevent their law enforcement agencies from participating moving forward here at the state level in North Carolina.

Is there anything that you would recommend that lawmakers do in order to ensure that the protections are in place after absolutely there is we think that, I think there are legislature ought to pass laws to circumvention laws and we got rebate. Some specific suggestions about the cognitive laws that provide real limits on how under what circumstances they law enforcement agencies could do this in some cases doubt it altogether.

Is there an appetite in the legislature to do something like this shrug go that far, but there's been some interest and we hope that with the right kind of education and more information will eventually will have the appetite get it done. It's really fascinating subject, public policy, civil asset forfeiture and the different implications of this and How It Actually Takes Pl. in North Carolina the different agencies that that do get revenue by working with the federal government. John rose his detailed all of that in his writings on this available at John Locke.for John thank you very much for joining you.

That's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you, Lynn for listening on behalf of Mitch.

Okay I'm Donna Martinez. Join us again next week for more Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke.or call 1866 jail left info 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina's free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the station information about the show or other programs and services of the John foundation, John Locke.toll-free at 866 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors. Carolina journal radio. Thank you for listening. Please join us again next week


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