The reality is, it just takes one person doing something different that can change the dance.
And if we can get past our pride and my selfishness, it changes everything. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Julie Baumgartner talks about common marriage myths.
Are you falling for any of them? Our featured resource today is an article about 15 of those myths. We're going to talk about them today. You can access the blog and see if you have believed any of the myths. Just go to buildingrelationships.us.
You can find the link right there. Gary, you've been helping marriages thrive for decades. You've seen the power of buying into a myth and what that can do to a marriage, right?
Not only have I seen it, Chris, but I have also experienced some myths along the way. So I am excited today about our conversation with Julie because I think these are some things that have led a number of couples off on a side road, you know. So I think our listeners are going to find some practical help today.
Yeah. Were you going to hear two friends, two old friends talk? They're not old. Two friends for a long time because I'm going to introduce you to Julie Baumgartner. She's the Senior Director of Windshape Marriage, which is a Christ-centered nonprofit organization founded nearly 40 years ago by Truett and Jeanette Cathy. Julie has nearly 40 years of experience helping marriages and families thrive.
Prior to joining Windshape, she spent 20 years as the president and CEO of First Things First. If you go to buildingrelationships.us, you can find out more about the resources and retreats that Windshape offers, as well as the article we're going to talk about on the 15 marriage myths. Just go to buildingrelationships.us. Well, Julie, welcome to Building Relationships. Thank you so much.
I'm honored to be here. Well, Chris just mentioned a little about your Windshape Marriage programs, but for those who aren't familiar, tell us a little more about Windshape and what you do. Windshape Marriage is part of the Windshape Foundation, which Mr. Cathy started in the early 80s, and we have the opportunity at Windshape Retreat to pour into marriages in every season, whether you're preparing for marriage, a newlywed, you have children, or you are preparing for empty nest success, we have a retreat, and the opportunity is to give people a sequestered setting away from all the noise and the chaos to grow closer to each other and closer to the Lord.
And we also have intensives that happen on a weekly basis at Windshape. Well, I've been there to Windshape, and it's an absolutely incredible place in which to reflect on marriage, so if our listeners have never been there, I hope they will look on the website. We'll share later, and they'll go there and choose to go to one of the conferences, or if they're in real struggling, I hope that they'll think about one of the intensives that can really help if you're in really, really struggling in your marriage. Now, you've been ministering to couples for 40 years.
Can you share a little about why you went into marriage ministry, and what drives you to continue in this work? Early on, I would say in the ninth grade, I knew that I was going to major in psychology and help families, because I had grown up with a brother with a lot of special needs. And as I was preparing to go off to college, my father walked in the house one evening, and told my mom and us, the three children, that he was leaving.
And he didn't mean that he was just leaving her, he meant that he was leaving the whole entire family. I was devastated because I was a daddy's girl, and I just didn't understand how your father could leave. So, I decided that instead of focusing on families with special needs, that my focus really needed to be on helping people build strong, healthy marriages, and understand how to have the tools to be equipped to go the long haul. I felt like if I could help anybody else avoid the pain that I was experiencing, I would spend the rest of my life doing that. And that is exactly what I feel like God has called me to, and I am very passionate about the opportunity to be on the journey.
My husband and I have, we're celebrating 34 years of marriage this year, and both of us are children of divorce. But also to do the journey with other couples, and to continue to pour into people as they are, wherever they are, on that marriage journey. I love it, it energizes me, and I do believe that that is God's calling on my life. You know, sometimes God uses the painful parts of our life to push us in the direction that we want to go, or that he wants us to go, yeah. So, how has marriage ministry changed over the last four decades?
I mean, you've been working in this a long time. What changes have you seen? I think probably one of the biggest things that I have seen over time is not that people aren't interested in marriage, but that they're scared to death. They don't have the tools to be successful at it, and so therefore they shy away from it. They try and find some type of replacement for it, whether that's living with someone without being married, and then realizing this is no substitute, or just saying, I'm not going to do it because I watched my parents be miserable in marriage, or I've never seen a successful marriage, and I don't trust my own judgment in choosing a person to be a good mate for life, and so I think I'm just, I am just not going to go there, which is so sad to me, because we are made for relationship. When you think about the gift of marriage, that God created this, and it is such a gift. It makes me sad that people are missing out on all that God has for them. Well, it is sad, and we know that many of them ultimately come to realize, you know, whatever the route they've chosen, they feel realized that this is not the route I really wish I had traveled, you know.
Yes. Now, Windshape, you offer retreats and marriage enrichment. What kind of experiences can a couple expect when they come to Windshape? We operate with five elements of transformation with every retreat that we offer, and that has to do with really getting people away, so a sequestered setting.
We sit on 27,000 acres. I can remember the very first time that I came to Windshape, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, when you have visited us, that the silence is almost deafening initially, and then it's just like a breath of fresh air. You can exhale, and the silence is just beautiful, so a sequestered setting, biblically based, Christ-centered teaching, worship, experiential, and I do think that that's kind of a secret sauce for us in that you're not just sitting listening to someone talk at you, but we take you through experiences through the weekend so that you learn through the process, and then the last thing is grace-based hospitality. This is this is a setting where our goal is is to serve you, to help you to not be distracted by what's waiting for you at home, but to truly have time to focus. I tell people all the time, I want you want you to have that moment over the weekend where you look at each other and say, there you are. I haven't seen you in a really long time, and you could even be looking in the mirror and saying that to yourself, because we go at such a fast pace where we have so many commitments. Children are often in the picture, careers are hectic, and we get lost in the shuffle, and our marriage often takes a backseat to everything else, when that is the very thing that if we can make that the priority, other things will fall in their right place.
Yeah. This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find more ways to strengthen relationships at buildingrelationships.us.
You can hear the program there, take an assessment of your love language, or see the article we're talking about today. Julie Baumgartner is joining us, and our topic is marriage myths. Go to buildingrelationships.us to find out more. Well, what are the marriage myths? Go to Building Relationships.us to find out more. All right, Julie, 15 marriage myths. Let's see how many we can get to today, okay?
Okay, that sounds great. Myth number one, healthy marriages are conflict-free. Now I'm gonna have to admit, Julie, I believe this before I got married. My wife and I grew up in the same church. I've known her forever, you know.
We dated two years. I mean, we know each other. We're not gonna have conflicts, so speak to that myth, okay?
Well, you're certainly not alone. There's a lot of folks that believe that if you marry the right person, that you just shouldn't have conflict, which could not be further from the truth. Even if you grew up in the same church, and you've known each other for a really long time, and you share the same values, it is highly likely, I mean, number one, you are two different people. God made you with different personalities. He created you with different passions, and so having different opinions about certain things, or beliefs about how to go about doing something, how to drive a car, how to do the laundry, where you should squeeze on the toothpaste tube.
I mean, I could keep going. All of those things bring different levels of conflict into a marriage relationship, and the thing that I think is powerful about conflict is if conflict is managed in a healthy way, it should actually draw you closer together versus making you feel further apart from each other. So if somebody wins and somebody loses, the relationship loses, but if you can actually come together and have a conversation, and your goal is to seek to understand your spouse.
Where are they coming from? Why do they believe the way that they do? Be curious and engage with them in conversation versus trying to have the last word or to be right. I tell people all the time, I ask the question of myself, do I want to be right or do I want to be in relationship?
And the bottom line is, I want to be in relationship with Jay. So my goal is to figure out, okay, we disagree on this, we certainly see that this is an issue, how do we figure out how to walk together and move forward? And when we do that well, we grow closer to each other. I guess one of the primary things in the process of learning to do that is learning how to listen to the other person, right?
Yes. Listening without feeling like you have to respond immediately. Just listen to take in information.
Seek to understand what is happening here. I wish I had learned how to do that before we got married, but as I said, before I got married, I didn't think we'd have any conflicts, you know. Well, myth number two, good healthy marriages come naturally when you marry the right person.
Is that not true? I would say good healthy marriages are a result of intentionality and commitment. I do remember saying to Jay when we were talking about marriage, if you are open to leaving the window even open just slightly to the idea that if the going gets hard, you would be willing to leave, then we can't continue this conversation because I am willing to 100% wholeheartedly commit and that's what I want to hear from you.
And he said, I'm all in. So the willingness to learn how to dance together with your spouse, and that doesn't mean that you're not going to step on each other's toes periodically, but recognizing that the goal is you have to keep trying. You don't just automatically marry the right person and you're off the hook. You've got this gift of marriage and there is a responsibility to know your spouse.
I mean we're 34 years in and I am continually wanting to learn and engage with Jay. We're not the same people that we were when we got married. The commitment is there, but you have to be intentional about seeking to be healthy yourself and be healthy as a couple. So it's twofold in there in terms of being the right person. Am I taking good care of myself?
Am I healthy and whole? And am I bringing that to our marriage relationship? And boy, marriages, I mean we have our challenges. There's a lot of things. We've been through brain surgery. We've been through death of a parent. We've been through job loss. We've been through raising a child. So there's lots of things that you go through different seasons. The intentionality and the commitment matters.
I want to be that person for Jay over time. Yeah, I think what kept us in our marriage in those early years was that commitment thing. You know, we believed that marriage was a covenant, you know, before God and people. Yeah. And we said to ourselves, we have got to figure out how to make this work. That's the intentionality part and pray, oh God, show us how to make this work, you know. Yeah.
Well, myth number three. Marriage is 50-50. If you go into thinking that marriage is 50-50, you're probably going to live with a lot of disappointment and resentment.
I was talking a few minutes ago just about being all in. If you're looking for your spouse to complete you, that is a lot of pressure to place on one person. You know, when I think back probably at least two to three decades ago, people had this group of people around them that's a support network. So they weren't looking to their spouse to meet their every need, to be their lover, to be their confidant, to listen, to do all the things together. They weren't looking for that. They had their good friends. They have their small group.
They have people that are encouraging them and walking the road with them. And I like to think about your spouse as complimenting you and being able to see that God has brought you together and you have this amazing opportunity to pray for your spouse, to seek to help them to be all that God has called them to be. I think about so many times when Jay has looked at me and he said, I want to pray over you and I want to pray for you. And I believe it is it's really my role to help you be everything that God has called you to be. That's being in it a hundred percent and recognizing that we're growing and changing your marriage shouldn't look the same year after year.
You should constantly be growing and changing and being who it is. God is calling you to be as a couple and as individuals. And that's like all in a hundred percent, not a 50-50 thing. I remember when I thought the main problem in our marriage was she wouldn't listen to me. I knew how we could have a good marriage.
She'd just listen to me. How'd that work for you? It didn't. That's why when I eventually said to God, I don't know what else to do. I've done everything I know to do.
It's not working. And there came to my mind that visual image of Jesus on his knees washing the feet of his disciples. And I heard God say, that's the problem in your marriage. You don't have the attitude of Christ toward her. Hit me like a ton of bricks Julie. And I said, God forgive me. I was in seminary. I said, God forgive me. All my theology.
And I've missed the whole point. When I started treating her, giving her a hundred percent and asking her, what can I do to help you? How can I make your life easier?
How can I be a better husband? She started answering me. And then three months later, she started asking me those questions. You're right. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Wow. Yeah.
Well, isn't that amazing? Just the change in the questions that you ask and the attitude within which you approach engaging with your spouse changes the dynamic. And I think that so often we think, well, this is just hopeless.
This is just hopeless. They're never going to change. And yet the reality is it just takes one person doing something different that can change the dance. And if we can get past our pride and my selfishness, I, oh my goodness, it changes everything in my marriage with Jay. Well, number four, your spouse completes you.
They should fulfill all of your needs. How do you respond to that? My response to that is if you are looking to anybody but the Lord to complete you, you will always. I mean, you're just going to live in a state of disappointment because humans make mistakes. They aren't always what we want them to be. And so you've got to recognize that it is the Lord that completes you. And your spouse is not your DIY project.
They are made in the image of God. And what they bring to the marriage relationship is important. And so if you are looking to them to complete you, you will be disappointed. I think the other thing that's really important about that, I have heard a lot of people, especially folks preparing for marriage, say that well marriage isolates you. So I mean who I have is my spouse.
And I would say research plays this out. Scripture says that, you know, we need to be mentored. We need other people in our lives that are pouring into us. So when you surround yourself with other people who are willing to speak truth to you and be encouraging to you, that's not only helpful to you as an individual, it's helpful to your marriage. I can remember early on in our marriage I was really frustrated with Jay because he was not doing things the way I thought he should do them. So I called my mentor who was in her mid-80s and had been married a very long time. She listened to me and I thought that she would be very sympathetic to what was happening in our marriage relationship.
And she said, Darlin, this is just the beginning. You need to get a grip because it is not all about you. And that was a moment of reckoning for me that I realized. I mean I was putting things on Jay that weren't his to take on and also was very thankful to have someone who could speak truth to me.
Yeah, can I just ask this Julie? I've heard people say, but I want to find my soulmate or I have found my soulmate or this is my better half. You know, you're saying you don't complete the other person, but there is this thing of this idea of God taking two people who are really different and bringing them together to make them one. So how do you respond to that?
Absolutely. I think that it is the mystery. God does take two very different flawed individuals and he brings them together and he says, you are going to leave your parents and you're gonna come and you're going to become one. And I would say that doesn't mean you lose who you are. It does mean you come together as one and you learn how to move forward together. Not leaving one or the other behind, but you figure out how do we engage with each other. I mean Jay and I are so different. If you could see the two of us, he is the adventure life of the party waiting to happen all the time. He is a lot of fun and I am the planner. I am definitely more on the serious side of the spectrum and so when he gets too far out there I can pull him in. He pulls me in and together we are way better and I am who I am today because Jay has not looked at me as a project, but has looked at me as how can I love you well and truly help you to grow into being all that God has called you to be.
The richness of what that is for you as an individual and us together. And when I think about the journey over 34 years, we roll as one but we continue to appreciate who God made each of us to be and it makes our relationship richer, that he is fun and an adventure and that I do bring these other things to the table. So we've learned to leverage the differences and make them work for us in the oneness of marriage. What are the 15 marriage myths? We're talking about that today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.
He's the New York Times best-selling author of "The 5 Love Languages" . We're talking with senior director of Wind Shape Marriage, Julie Baumgartner. Find out more about Wind Shape and read the article we're talking about at buildingrelationships.us and don't forget you'll find more simple ways to strengthen relationships right there at buildingrelationships.us. Julie, what can couples do when they become disappointed by the human mistakes, you know, that their spouse makes? I mean, all of us have because all of our spouses are imperfect, but how do you respond to that? The first thing I'd say is that it honestly is rare that you hear a spouse say, this morning when I woke up, I laid in bed for a few minutes and I really thought about the things that I could do today that would irritate and frustrate my spouse.
They don't say that. They frequently will say to me, I'm really trying. I feel like I'm bending over backwards, but I just can't do anything right. So the first thing that I would say is believe the best of your spouse.
It's unlikely that they're really trying to disappoint you and quote unquote make your life miserable. The second thing that I would say is sit down and kind of do your own self-evaluation. What is going on with me right now?
Am I lonely? Am I dissatisfied with work or with what's happening at home? What are the kinds of things that I'm, what are the things I'm telling myself in my head?
Are they true or are they not true? What are you telling yourself about your spouse? Because we train our brains and so if you've gotten irritated with your spouse over one thing and you didn't sit down and have a conversation about that, do you carry that with you and then something else happens, you begin to automatically assume the worst of your spouse and you are literally training your brain to think negatively about the one that you said I do too and you committed to do life with.
So doing that self-evaluation and asking yourself those questions can be very helpful. The other thing that I would say is how do you actually sit down with your spouse and had a conversation about where you feel like you're sideways? Not a accusatory conversation but a this is what I see happening, my feelings get really hurt or are hurt or I feel I'm feeling disappointment but actually having the conversation where you can speak to what is happening and then asking can we try to do things differently?
Can we talk about this and brainstorm some opportunities that we have here? I tell you there are so many times that I've had this conversation with couples and the spouse that is experiencing the frustration when they talk to the other spouse, the person says I had no idea. Yeah. Why didn't you tell me? Well I thought you knew. I thought you could, why can't you just tell that I mean I've clearly been quiet. You should just know and that is not true.
None of us are mind readers. We don't know so we have to figure out how to have conversation around the hard things in a way that we open the door for opportunity to move to a different place, in a healthier place in our marriage relationship. Yeah and things can be different if we open the door. Yeah things can definitely be different. Yeah well we're discussing some myths about marriage that couples carry into marriage and sometimes they have them throughout marriage.
Here's myth number five. Happy couples do everything together. I'm laughing at each one of these because it just brings back so many memories of thinking some of these things and then realizing it couldn't be further from the truth. Happy couples know that actually being apart creates anticipation. I remember during COVID in 2020, so many couples were saying I am ready to pull my hair out. We have been together 24-7 for weeks on end and it is not that I do not love you but I need a break and there's truth to that. Absence does make the heart grow fonder.
When you and your spouse are apart, you can actually create excitement and anticipation around coming back together and I can give you a great example for me. Horseback riding is like therapy to me. It is the one thing that I do where I don't think about anything else in my life. I focus on that. It is a stress release for me. I am a better person when I do that.
Jay could care less about horseback riding. In fact, if I asked him to do that with me, it would probably create a lot of stress and tension in our merit. But he loves it that I go and do that and then I come back and we do things together. I think the kicker for this one is if you are doing more apart than you are together, that should be a red flag for you. But happy couples definitely know that there is something to be said for being together and then having the opportunity to have some alone time, to do something that you enjoy, that your spouse may not particularly enjoy, and then coming back together as a couple.
I think we all need that. I remember Julie several years ago my wife said to me, now honey, if you ever retire, I hope you'll get you an office somewhere where you can go every day. And so when I did retire from the church where I've served for 50 years, about a year and a half ago I retired, but they let me keep my office and they let me keep my assistant and my wife was so happy. If you're apart, the times together are even more meaningful. Then you have things to share with each other and talk about life. All right, here's another myth. If you marry the right person, you'll always feel in love.
I feel like I should turn to you and say, okay, Gary, I know. I mean, we know that that's not true. You may go through times where you don't feel that romantic love towards your spouse and you choose to love through it. The day-to-day challenges of doing life with another person or having different perspectives about things, when you say I do, I love that you brought up the fact that it's a covenant. This is not a transaction.
It's not a contract. You made a covenant before the Lord to love this person in sickness and in health on great days and on terrible days and when you get out of the wrong side of the bed, you have to guard against looking at your spouse through fleshly eyes and recognize that sometimes you're not very lovable. I mean, we expect our spouse to do things that we don't even expect of ourselves, but recognizing that you choose to love even in the midst of hard, even in the midst of when you're not very lovable.
I can think about times where both Jay and I have different seasons, but hard things. Being willing to walk that road and love in the midst of the pain and the hard. When you get to the other side of it and you can look at each other and say, we just did that together. I didn't feel like I was alone in that process.
You walked that road with me. The love is even more powerful at that point. Yeah, I think when we get married and we have that in love experience, you know, I was always told Julie before I got married that if you've got the real thing, it's gonna last forever. And that's kind of the same myth that we're talking about here. Because we know now that the average lifespan of that euphoric stage is about two years and we come down off the high. And I remember Carolyn and I came down off the high. Yes, that's one thing I do wish that we would tell couples as they prepare for marriage. Is that you actually do have a chemical in your brain, PEA, that is released and you get, it's there for about two years. In the middle of that two years, it starts going away. And so then you start questioning why doesn't the romance come so easily? Why is this more complicated than it was? And it is because of that.
You do. You get this two-year kind of opportunity and then it is your responsibility to be intentional about creating the romance. Continuing to create fun, to play together, to date, to do all those things that you enjoy as a couple. But we often hear when children come into the marriage relationship that they're supposed to take center stage. And we know based on research that child-centered marriages are the ones that are most at risk for distress. So this choosing to love and to be intentional about caring for your marriage, it is it is the greatest gift you can give your family because it's like a security blanket. It's like wrapping a security blanket around your children and recognizing that the children, their job is to grow and go.
You're gonna be back together empty nesters and you don't want to look at each other and go, and I married you because? Absolutely. You know that's where I think the love language helps people if they understand it. You know what really makes them feel love.
You learn that language and choose to speak it whether you feel like it or whether you don't feel like it. Right. This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" . Go to buildingrelationships.us to find more ways to strengthen relationships. That's buildingrelationships.us. You'll find a link to Windshape Marriage in the article we're discussing with Julie Baumgartner. She's the Senior Director of Windshape Marriage. Again go to buildingrelationships.us. Julie in our last section, let's talk about this myth that married sex is boring.
No way. Married sex is better. That is definitely a myth and I am so glad that we're getting to this one because when I think about married sex, first of all, what a gift. I mean from a faith perspective it is an act of worship and it isn't self-serving. It is an opportunity that God has given us to learn how to truly intimately love someone and experience something that you're not going to experience anywhere else. I talk with people, I was actually talking with some high schoolers a couple weeks ago and I was speaking to the fact that folks who are like, it's no big deal, you can you can do this outside of marriage and it's just no big deal. It is very self-serving. It is selfish and it is nothing like what you experience in marriage which is why I think the Lord really spoke to this is a gift and an opportunity to experience something, the closeness, the two becoming one, in a way this person loves you. They're not gonna laugh at you, make fun at you, judge you. They want to figure out and be curious about well how do we love each other well?
What does this look like for us? And the other thing I think about when you talk about married sex is recognizing then when that when people talk about intimacy they immediately go to sex but when you think about intimacy you think about emotional intimacy, you think about intellectual intimacy, creative intimacy, this opportunity to have this deep discussions about things that you think and are wondering about and feeling but you you talk with them with each other and you might have differing opinions and yet you walk away from that with that was stimulating and I love having conversations with you. It just makes me love you more.
The emotional intimacy of knowing safety of I I know that you will hold me, that you will come when I call, that you believe in me, that you value me. All of those things build up to amazing physical intimacy and so when I think about married sex and when you when you look in the word and when you look at what the research shows, married sex is actually the best sex. Absolutely and outside of marriage though it might be pleasurable for the moment, it does not bring long-term lasting satisfaction.
No. Let me tie the next two myths together. One is having children will help couples if they're struggling in their marriage and then here's the other myth associated with children that your children need to come first.
How do you respond to those myths? I can definitely say it is for sure a myth that having a child will help you if you're struggling in your marriage. That will actually create a lot more tension and stress. We do a retreat for couples who are preparing to have their first child because there just is not enough focus placed on the impact a child will have on a marriage and so it is vitally important that you take the time to get help for your marriage if you're struggling and there's help at Windshape, there's help at other places if you're struggling in your marriage relationship but I would absolutely encourage a couple to seek to get your marriage in a healthy place. Not perfect.
We're not talking perfect here. We're talking healthy and to understand the impact that children will have on your marriage and so therefore to answer the second portion of that you asked me if children should come first in a marriage and the answer is no. What we're looking to do in a marriage relationship is to have your marriage on a solid foundation built on the rock the Lord and that you are communicating in healthy ways, that you're managing conflict, that you're doing the day-to-day well and as a child comes into that absolutely you're caring for the needs of the child but the greatest gift you can give your child is to not make them the center of your attention all the time that you are still nurturing your marriage relationship. One, they will know if your marriage isn't doing well and there's there's a lot of research to prove that and they will struggle.
It is scary to them when they think you aren't doing well and they can read you like a book even when you think you're putting your best face forward they can they know they can pick up on the stress and the anxiety and it makes them stressed and anxious. So taking care of your marriage is a great gift that you not only give yourselves but you give your children and that creates an environment in the home that allows them to thrive. Not to be perfect children, it's not a situation where they're never going to fail or struggle but they've got this firm foundation.
They know that home is a safe place, that mom and dad are stable and will care for them and take care of their own marriage so that they are there as providers for children. Well, Julie, this has been a great discussion and I hope that our listeners not only have been stimulated in their own marriage but they'll get the copy of these, read all of them and not be forced into thinking something is true that really is not true. Thank you for your effort and putting all these together and thanks for being with us today.
I'm honored to be here, thank you so much. Well if you'd like to find out more about Wind Shape Marriage, the resources, the retreats and the rest of the 15 myths of marriage just go to buildingrelationships.us. We've been talking with Senior Director of Wind Shape Marriage, Julie Baumgartner.
Again, find out more at buildingrelationships.us. And next week on Father's Day Weekend, what was it like to have Dr. Tony Evans come to your football games? Don't miss a conversation with Jonathan Evans in one week. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
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