And we're convinced, and we talk a lot about this, that the essence of real romance and passion is fascination and curiosity. Insight from Dr. Bob Paul, and he's in the studio back with us for a second day along with Tara Lalande, and they're going to offer insights about how you as a couple can build a stronger marriage. I'm John Fuller, and welcome to the show. John, Tara is involved with Hope Restored in Canada, and Bob, of course, is involved here in the US. So these two are coming from a wealth of experience, and as we mentioned last time, Tara did her PhD dissertation on Hope Restored, where she went very in-depth with six couples to follow up with them and see what was being applied, what they had learned at Hope Restored. If you missed the discussion last time, go back.
You can get it through your smartphone, or you could go to the folks on the family website to hear that. But I'd encourage you, there was so much good stuff in that program last time. We're going to build on that today and talk more about how you can have a better marriage. I hope you say, amen, let's do it. Marriage is under such stress today, especially within the Christian community. I mean, you know, marriages are breaking apart within the Christian community. So Hope Restored, the goal here is to see if we can continue at a pace of saving 80% of those marriages. Think if we could save together over the next 10 years, 30,000, 40,000 marriages, we will put a dent in Christian divorce rates.
I think that's a good thing. And I'm looking forward to covering more territory today. I am too, and Jim, the generational impact of marriages that are helped through Hope Restored and through this show, it cannot be measured. Now together, Tara and Bob have written a book called Empowered to Love, discovering your God-given power to create a marriage you both love. It is a terrific resource, and we've got details about it in the show notes. Tara and Bob, welcome back. So good to be here. Looking forward to the discussion.
It was, for me, it was engaging because I'm going, oh yeah, okay, that's me and Jean. But let me hit another button here. Tara, I'll aim this one at you. One barrier to being empowered to love is blaming your spouse for your unhealthy conflict.
Now let me see everybody's hand if you have done that. Man, yeah, I mean, it's just human nature. What would you say to someone who is struggling with that? Let's just pretend you're talking to me, for example, about how I tend to blame Jean for things. Yeah. Well, in the book, there's actually a story about how God convicted Bob in that. Shall we let Bob share that story or what? Yeah, you want to share that? Bob, would you like to share that? Then Tara can analyze it. Yeah. Oh, that's fun.
I'm sure she can, as a matter of fact. You know, I was a world-class blamer. I mean, it seemed to me that every time we had a conflict that I would be focused on what Jenny did I didn't like and what I wanted her to do differently. And I was whining and complaining because she just wasn't getting with the program and making the changes that I was suggesting.
So I'm not, you know, she's not listening to me, so I'm whining to God. And God met me in a very convicting way. And he basically asked me a couple of questions.
And when he convicts me, he usually throws me off guard. So the first thing he said is, Bob, right now, who are you seeing as causing the problem? Well, you know, her. That woman you gave her. Exactly.
And who are you seeing as holding the keys to the solution? Well, again, if she would just, instead of this, and he said, so Bob, who has all the power? Well, she does. And Bob, how did she get it? Well, I guess I gave it to her.
He said, Bob, I didn't give you the power to give it to her. I gave you the power to use responsibly. And that's the biggest thing that we see about blame is that when you're blaming the other person, you are inadvertently giving them your power and disempowering yourself.
And that is not God's intent. So we really suggest back off of the blame that you're not doing yourself or your relationship any favors. Now, let me ask this Gary Thomas and his great book on marriage.
And of course, we interviewed him. He's a good friend of the ministry and we got into this and he said, you know, it's not common for us as a couple to know that what marriage is about is about making us more like Christ selfless. Right.
And rubbing off those edges. And I think about that a lot, because if that's part of the institution of marriage that God created for us to become more like him in that institution of marriage, to become more selfless, that means we have to not be selfish and man, are we selfish in our relationship, probably the most selfish relationship we have is with our spouse in different ways until you're getting healthier and healthier. And then you realize, you know, when the Lord said to men, lay your life down for your wife, wow.
I mean that what a command that is. And can we really do it emotionally? I mean, now, you know, it's interesting because I would agree with everything you're saying.
And at the same time, caring well for yourself is not being self-centered. It's actually just attending to being fully who God created you to be, whole and healthy, so you can bring your best self back to the relationship and to your spouse. And you know what's interesting, Jim, you were talking about infatuation. And I'd like to speak into that for just a moment. That first couple of years of your marriage.
Oh yeah, because it is delightful. And what we've analyzed and what we talk about a lot in the book is that what's exciting about that is that we are on this journey of discovery, getting to know this wholly different, unique individual that has all these delightful qualities and then the relationship begins to fade and it loses that spark. And what people don't realize is that what causes the romance and passion to dissipate is that we actually stop being focused on getting to know our spouse like we did originally. And we're convinced and we talk a lot about this, that the essence of real romance and passion is fascination and curiosity.
And you got to get to the point where you go, same old, same old, there's nothing new to learn. And matter of fact, I can tell you one of the most sad counseling stories that I ever encountered. Wait a second, everybody want to hear that? Okay, we do.
Okay. Guy came into me with his wife having the situation that's maybe the most common we deal with, he'd had an affair. He was very upset because he was a devout believer and he was very critical of people who had ever had an affair and then he found himself in that position and he said, what's going on here?
And he did some work before he came to us that most people don't. He figured out why. And what he came to me and said was that the reason was because I had inadvertently let the romance and passion in my relationship fade and I want you to help us rekindle the romance. And I told him what I just said to you that actually the essence is fascination and curiosity. And you got to continue to be in that journey of getting to know each other in deeper and deeper ways.
The Hebrew word is yadah, to know. Okay. So he looks at me like this and he puts his, he leans back and he goes, I'll buy it. Okay.
Okay, why? He says, Bob, my wife truly is maybe one of the most loving people on the planet, but she's just not that complicated. And I'll tell you, there is nothing about her that I don't already know. And then he wags his finger at me and her cause she's there too and says, I dare either one of you to come up with anything about her I don't already know.
And I looked at him, I said, man, if that's the case, you're sunk. But I knew he was wrong because truthfully one lifetime isn't close to enough time to fully get to know any human being, yourself included. I mean, I've been married now for over 43 years. I am learning new things about Jenny Paul every single day. And just to make it interesting, she keeps changing on me, but that's okay. There's always something new and exciting to learn. There is that little hard to get thing that is very interesting. I'm learning new things about me all the time.
And I've been hanging with me even longer. Yeah, that's okay. So I would think that is an extremely prideful man to think he could get there. Yeah. And very deceived because I mean, his wife. What happened? Did he have the aha? Did he go, okay, she said, Well, this is something you don't know about me.
No, she actually was believing that about herself. And they actually left and he figured I had nothing to help him with because there had to be some magic pill that I could have given him instead. And you know, what's really kind of sad is another place where this happens very powerfully spiritually, is people who've been in church for a long period of time get to a point that they think they got him figured out. And if one lifetime isn't close to enough time to get to know any human being, 100 lifetimes isn't close to enough time to get to know our Lord, the creator and sustainer of the universe. And the romance fades out of your spiritual life.
Let me my mind is spinning, but let's keep this moving. You have a story about the links that Jenny your wife went to in setting boundaries with your early marriage, because you were not cooperating appropriately. What happened in that story? This is the most commonly told story in our I love this story.
I shared it with there. It's very embarrassing, but it's sadly true. You see, as I said earlier, when Jenny would do something I didn't like, I thought the thing that I was supposed to do as a responsible husband is to go to her and talk to her about the thing she did I didn't like, and the things I wanted her to do differently. And for some reason, she never enjoyed those conversations.
Let me just have a gut check. Tara, you're a woman, you're a wife. Is that the way we men should approach that is straightening you out?
Doesn't hit any buttons at all ever, every single time. Okay, Bob, back to you. And it never went well for me either. So my wife, thankfully, is a woman who has a very strong sense of self. And she started realizing that if she was to change all the things I wanted to change, that soon there'd be no Jenny left. So she and God got into cahoots. And I came to her one day with that in mind, started yapping at her, and she said, uh-uh, and she walked away. Now, of course, I'm not going to be put off by that. So I just started following her, yapping at her as she goes, and she's going from room to room until finally she goes and she locks herself in the bedroom.
And I'm thinking, cool, I got a captive audience, I might as well get comfortable. So I sat down on the floor outside the bedroom door, kept the barrage going until I heard the car start. She literally pulled the screen off the window, opened the window, climbed out the window, was driving off down the way to get away from me. And I'm thinking, she doesn't care about God. She doesn't care about me. She doesn't care about our marriage. And I was sadly so mistaken because I had no idea how much I was so off base.
I was so unsafe. I was so committed to trying to change my wife. And, you know, it's bad enough when you try and change your spouse and you get on their bad side. But, you know, you're kind of thumbing your nose at the Creator saying, hey, you could have done better.
And I don't recommend that. Just for the record, Jean loved that part of the story the most. Jenny going out the window. She was like, I love her. And she came back and I said, you know, you were bailing on us. And she said, Bob, why are you making this about you?
I was taking care of me so I could get myself back to a better place so I could bring a better me back to the relationship. So what have you learned about those boundaries set by Jenny? I mean, what have you learned about that? Are you cool with it now?
I hate it. I've hated every boundary. She said, my wife is what I like to call a boundary ninja. Everything I've learned worth learning about boundaries, I learned with her setting them with me.
I hated every single one of them until God said, I hated everyone until God said, Bob, what she did is good. I want you to learn how to do it. And I want you to teach others. Oh my God. Yeah.
I mean, there's a lesson right there. Tara, let me ask you in setting boundaries, which I think wives, I don't want to be too generalistic or stereotypical here because the shoe could be on the other foot. I get that. But wives seem to, to know how to set those boundaries pretty well. Oh, some do.
Yeah. So talk about, talk about that boundary setting, the healthy aspect of it. I would think that again, women tend to wear guilt so easily that that could be the conflict in the boundary setting. Well, I want to set this boundary, but should I, I don't know. I, you know, you get the head discussion going there, but speak to that issue of healthy boundary setting, right? Well, first I want to clarify, boundaries are not about making my spouse do or not do anything. Jenny wasn't setting a boundary so he would stop, right? Jenny was setting a boundary so she could take care of her so that she could show up well, right? So we don't want to just trade and don't be my holy spirit.
I'll be yours. No, he's actually very good at it and he's still on the throne, right? That's right. Amen. So a healthy boundary is basically first off saying a request that, you know, I'm not happy with this behavior and I would like this behavior to stop or to change. But with every request, no has to be an acceptable answer. Always for love to be love, no has to be an acceptable answer.
We feel very strongly about this. So that works with boundaries too. So your spouse says, no, I'm going to keep doing this. Okay. The boundary then is what do I need to do to make sure that I am safe in this situation? And that might be, I need to step back. I need to go to a different room. I need to climb out the window. I need to do whatever it is that I need to do so that we can come back. And I would say, I'd be open to have this conversation with you, but not like this. Yeah. And if every time you come at me like this, I will be backing away.
But if we can do this differently, I really want this. So it's not a temper tantrum. It's not punishment.
If the attitude is punishment, that's not a healthy boundary. This is, I'm stepping away to be healthy and I'm giving opportunity for us to do this better within healthy parameters. Tara, when your spouse is ready to connect with you emotionally, a tool that you talk about in the book is heart talk. Okay.
All the guys just curled up in a ball. What is heart talk? Heart talk is very similar to active listening, to be honest with you. And many people have heard of active listening and reflecting back and forth.
But what we think is unique about this is the heart component of it. So two roles, you've got a speaker and a listener. Sounds obvious, right? Yeah. Except that so often listeners are speakers in waiting. Now you're killing me. I'm always finishing the sentences.
Yeah. We're one step ahead of our speaker or we're trying to think of, Oh, I got something to respond to that. You're not listening. I'm trying so hard to change that.
Jean just gives me the look when I finish her sentence. Like that's not what I was going to say. I appreciate your input. Can I finish my sentence now?
Choose your own adventure. I'm actually saying this. Yeah. So you're speaking about emotional content.
This isn't talking about what you did yesterday and all of that. This is about me and how I feel. So it might be helpful to build some emotional vocabulary. We do have some emotion vocabulary lists at the back of the book in one of the appendix cause it's not easy, but then the heart. So the listener lets the speakers communication touch the heart.
They care about this. When Vince is sharing something with me from the heart, it doesn't happen all that often with Vince and it's gold when it does and everything stops and I'm listening for what he's trying to say and I let it touch me. I don't have to agree with him. That's not what hard talk is.
Hard talk is this is your experience and this is how it impacts you and that matters to me because you matter to me and then you reflect it back. So what I'm hearing you say is this, am I getting that right? That's an important question. No, that's what you said. No, no.
Am I getting it right? Cause maybe, huh? I said that, but that's not what I meant. It's this. Okay.
So it's not that it's this. Yes. Yeah. And that is so powerful when we feel understood. So many spouses want to say, yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I understand. I don't know if you understand, but if you say, I'm hearing you say, when I did that, it made you feel hurt and like I was talking down to you. Oh yeah, you do understand.
Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting that we, we teach our talk as a way to put like guardrails on your communication vehicle around on the road. So do you keep your communication vehicle out of the ditch? It's really simple.
It's just some simple rules, but honestly, you follow the rules just until you'll get good at it. And then you don't have to think about it anymore because you want to have successful communication with each other. And where we really encourage people to start is talking about using the tool to talk about positive stuff, not negative stuff. Because if you only use hard talk, every time a bad thing comes up, when Jean comes to you and says, honey, can we have a hard talk?
Your immediate reaction is going to go, Oh no, here we go. But there are so many positive things that go unsaid that are taken for granted. And you can practice using that. You know, there's things that Jenny does every day that thrill me for me to take a moment and say, Hey, you know, can we have a hard talk? You know, when you did this yesterday, I felt so great.
And you know, that's an easy one. It's a great way to get good at doing that. So when the tough stuff comes up, you can have a facility with the skill and just lean into it and it just flows naturally and effortlessly. Do you want to give me a couple of the rules? Wait, wait, wait, let me toss in a side note.
Bob was talking about putting romance back in and curiosity, using hard talk in those positive things. Talk about a way to build Okay, now give me those rules. Yes, absolutely. Yes.
This will lead there, right? Okay, what are some of the just as an example, what are a couple of those rules? It's very simple. Okay, I've got a speaker and a listener.
This is predicated on this incredibly complex principle of taking turns. Okay. Okay. Whoa, that's okay.
Kind of started in elementary school. Yeah, right. So you have and the speaker really is just focusing on what's going on with them emotionally, caring about their own feelings enough to be willing to share them.
And then sharing using an iMessage when something happened, when this happened, this is what I felt. Okay, that's easy. The listener needs to be focused on hearing the heart. Okay. And we use the acronym ICU for the steps.
It's very simple. Identify feelings, care about the feelings, seek to touch you, and then seek to understand. So what I heard you say was this, is this what you were feeling? And do it tentatively. Let the speaker confirm that you got it because the communication isn't complete when you as a listener think you get it. The communication is complete when the speaker thinks you get it. Okay.
Yeah, that's good. Very and very simple. There's nothing complicated about this. And when we speak effectively to one another, we're actually doing this. We don't realize we're doing it.
We got a couple of minutes. I just want to kind of put into cement this idea that you're on the same team. You talk about that in the book. Sometimes that's hard to understand when you're in the heat of disagreement. But how do you capture that and say, wait a minute, you're on the same team here? What does that mean to be on the same team? Well, first of all, this is a rule of relationships, a law of relationships God created.
Okay. Marriage is a team sport. Whether you acknowledge it, whether you understand it, whether you recognize it or not, it's God's design. And when you're on the same team, there's only two possible outcomes. You both win or you both lose.
There is no such thing as a win-lose outcome in marriage ever. It's purely an illusion from the pit of hell. And the enemy wants us to square off his adversaries. He uses a divide and conquer strategy. That's one of his fruits, to divide.
Yeah. That's what he wants to do. And scripture says very clearly, a house divided cannot stand. So the second we square off his adversaries, he's got us. He doesn't even have to stick around.
He can go mess with the neighbors. He's got us covered. So we want to resist that. And we have a no losers policy at play in our house.
Because I realized Jenny is my teammate. And if Jenny walks away feeling bad about an interaction or I walk away feeling bad about an interaction, our team loses. And we are refusing to let them continue to have parties in hell at our expense.
We do not want that. We want to walk away victorious. So we got to be attentive to the fact that both of us have to feel good about what we're doing and where we end up.
Or the whole team is lost. You know, that is perfectly said. And some listeners right here at the end are going, wow, okay, we're not nearly where we need to be. And it's not a condemnation. This isn't necessarily a grade.
You score an F. It's the realization that we're not living in the fullness of what God has created. And what a beautiful picture that is when we do. And it is possible. You're seeing that at Hope Restored. These couples, maybe not everybody, but many of the couples that go have this lift spiritually in their marriage. They understand each other far better. You did a great job recapping that a moment ago, Tara. So what do you say to the woman, the wife who's realizing, okay, this is touching the need that I've been feeling? Yeah, well, first of all, if you're willing, get the book, we give all kinds of resources for that wife or that husband, right? It doesn't have to be both of us have to buy in to buy the book and get benefit from this. If you both do, you can change your marriage. But say it's just the wife doing it. Say she's the only one who's interested in making this change in doing this work.
Real, real change can happen. In fact, on many levels, that is the marriage that I live in. Vince isn't interested in using these tools or doing this kind of work. It's not his wheelhouse.
He has other really cool things, but this is not him. And that's okay, because God didn't wire him that way. And he's teaching me to love the man I married, not the one that I want to make him.
Wow. And to love me and know that my God loves me and he can be the husband, hard truth, he can be the husband that I long for in those deep emotional connection ways until such time if ever he sees fit to make those changes in Vince. But I got to tell you, God is so good and he is so faithful in the relationship you can have with the Lord this way with an open heart to him. You can feel that intimacy, that fullness. You can then love your husband well for God's well done, good and faithful servant.
And it'll feel good. Yeah. What I'm hearing, I mean, that is Shalom. That is God's peace for you as a wife.
And that is so good that contentment, no matter the circumstances. Bob, speak to the guy. Okay. So one of the things that I know about men, and I know this is true about me, one of my passions is to find the easiest possible way to do everything. Now we're talking. Yeah. And most guys I know get so frustrated in the area of marriage, in the area of romance and so forth, because it seems so complicated because the truth of the matter is you gals are extremely complicated and we find you baffling. Preach it brother.
Okay. And I am no exception. God made us this way. So what's so good about it is that what we've uncovered, because hope restored is when we deal with the couples that are struggling and it's kind of like a marriage laboratory. And we've been learning for 25 years and most of the stuff that we put out there is not for the couples who are struggling. It's for the average Joe and his wife to find a way to get better.
To function better. And simply. Yeah. So all of these tools are not complex. They are simple. They're easy. They are doable.
Including four guys. You have to be willing to see that you got to do something a little bit differently to get what you want. But the goal for us is to make it simple and possible to set you guys up to succeed in situations where you've always felt set up to fail. That's our key. So yeah, this is possible. This is doable. Well thank you so much for expressing it so beautifully the last couple of days.
This has been great and very energetic. And you know, I've always got that inquisitive mind to say, okay, what can I do differently? I hope that's touching you the same way. This book should fly out of focus on the family. Because man, it's a great tool and it's got practical advice to help you in your marriage. I don't know why anybody, any couple would not want to get a copy. And I'm not making a pitch.
I'm just saying you want to get a marriage that is really rewarding and healthy and more fulfilling? Get the book and put those principles into play. I mean, it will do that. I guarantee it.
That's the pitch. But if you can make a gift of any amount, we'll send you the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. We don't pay shareholders.
There's no profit sharing. All that money goes right back into helping families. So be part of the ministry.
Get a great resource. And man, let's change our lives for the better. So those outside the church might look at us and go, what do you have and how did you get it? Well, a lot of passion here.
You can hear that. And we want to help your marriage today. Our number to get that book, Empowered to Love is 800, the letter A in the word family. And when you have us on the phone, be sure to ask about Hope Restored. If you're feeling like there is nothing that God can do in our marriage, but maybe if you can say maybe He can do something, give us a call. Learn more about Hope Restored, our four day marriage intensives.
They are so effective, so practical. And what you learn there can carry you through the rest of your life in a much better place with your spouse. Again, our number 800, the letter A in the word family. We're stopped by the show notes for details. Tara and Bob, thank you for being with us. This has been great. Our pleasure.
We love it. And thank you for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Hi, I'm Dr. Greg Smalley. And I'm Erin Smalley. Marriage is an amazing gift from God, but it can also be a challenge sometimes.
That's right. We could all use a little guidance. And that's why we started our podcast, Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. We talk about things like recognizing conflict cycles, dealing with stress, and how to grow your love each day. Listen at crazylittlethingcalledmarriage.com or wherever you get your podcasts. We can't wait to see you there.
