Thriving in Love and Money

Do you argue with your spouse about your finances? Today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, new insights on love and money. When somebody feels understood, there's almost an automatic opening up that comes along with an opportunity to share what's going on in yours and have them care about it. Because they don't feel like you're just pushing and pushing for your interests. They recognize how much you care about theirs. Is the most difficult discussion you have with your spouse about finances?

Do you avoid the subject altogether because it's such an area of conflict? Then we have some help and hope for you today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Shanti Feldhahn will join us today. She and her husband, Jeff, have written our featured resource. It's titled Thriving in Love and Money. Five game-changing insights about your relationship, your money, and yourself.

Just go to fivelovelanguages.com to find out more. Dr. Chapman, we've heard the questions posed each month on our Dear Gary broadcast. This topic of marriage and money is a contentious one, isn't it?

Well, it is. You know, some research indicates that disagreements over money is one of the major, if not the major, problem in marriages. Not every couple, of course, has found that to be true.

But I think because money is an integral part of life, and we are humans, and we have different ideas about money and different experiences in the past, yeah, it's a common conflict area. So I really feel like that our discussion today is going to be very helpful to our listeners. Well, Shanti Feldhahn is a Harvard-trained social researcher, popular speaker, and bestselling author. You know her from books like For Women Only, The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Marriages, and others. Her relationship findings have been featured in The New York Times, Focus on the Family, Cosmo, The Today Show. She and her husband, Jeff, have two children.

They live in Atlanta. And our featured resource is their book, Thriving in Love and Money. You can find out more at FiveLoveLanguages.com. Well, Shanti, welcome back to Building Relationships. Oh, man, it is always good to be with you. We've talked before about some of your projects and how each one is sparked by something that interests you greatly. Talk about the spark that stirred this book, Thriving in Love and Money. Oh, man, this is a very different story to the usual ones, because this is a real God thing that I wasn't sure I wanted to do. We had been, in all candor, really praying about, okay, Lord, do you want us to do any more of these research-based books?

Because the business model had changed so much, and research is expensive, and we weren't sure how we were going to pay for it. And it's kind of like, all right, Lord, you're going to have to sort of show us. And out of the blue, we got this call from – it's a financial services company called Thrivent that serves Christians with financial planning or banking or whatever. And they said, look, we really want to start an initiative that helps people in their marriages around money, because everybody knows that this is such a big issue in marriage. We don't think it has to be. How would you feel about making this your next research project?

And oh, by the way, us funding it, us sponsoring it. And we, Jeff and I, we were both like, this is such an answer to prayer, and I'm terrified at taking on this topic, because we were not on the same page about money. Okay.

Yes, it was definitely like the Lord going, all righty, this is it. You're going to have to confront this issue that we've really never been on the same page about for years of our marriage. So talk just a bit about the differences that you all experienced through the years on this area, on this topic.

Yeah, well, see, here's the thing. When we do all these other relationship research projects, we've always incorporated what we learned into our own marriage, and didn't do it perfectly, but we learned so much about each other, and it really helped. This area of money, it was something we've never studied before, honestly, and never really thought about studying before, which is kind of weird, because it's a big issue. And I think one of the reasons is, is that we didn't fight about money, we just avoided it. Like, technically, we shared bank accounts, we did money together, but realistically, we kind of just lived separate money lives. Okay, you pay these bills, I pay these bills, and Jeff is the saver, I'm the spender, there was a lot of conflict and defensiveness, so we just don't talk about it.

And that was really where we were when this project started, and recognizing, man, we are going to have to dive in to what are the reasons for that, because that's what we felt really called to do, like, not a project on how do you have a better budget, because plenty of people have done that really well. There's plenty of resources out there about that, but for us, it went much deeper than that, it was much more how do we have a great marriage around money, and really studying what those factors are. Yeah, but based on your research, what percentage of couples do you think follow the model you mentioned that they just don't talk about money? Well, it turns out, I actually know the answer to that, because we do this big nationally representative survey, or in this case, surveys, and it turns out 77% of us can't talk about money well. 23% can, and so those of you who are listening to this who are in the 23%, the rest of us, kind of think you're mutants.

Like, how do you do that? And it is very, very common, like I said, 77% of couples, it's not necessarily that they fight about money all the time, although some people do, it's like a big, like overt issue, but for many of us, it is really that we avoid it, we kind of do money separately. Maybe it's even, you know, so far as you have your bank account over here, and your money, and I have my bank account over here, and my money, and you know what, we just, we get along better when we don't try to do it together.

And all of that is the 77%. Now you say it's not about the money, but you also said it's about how money or how it's handled makes you feel. Can you give us an illustration of that?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the big examples when there is a time of sort of economic uncertainty, which many of us can understand. Even though in prosperity, this is an issue, it turns out one of the factors we found, there were these five sort of factors running under the surface. And one of the examples of that is that men and women tend, and this is money does not tend to be gender related, but we found that there was this one area statistically that was gender related. Men and women tend to have two different sets of primary fears running underneath the surface. And it's almost like the example is almost like they're two different cliffs. If you have a fear of heights, you know that's, well, maybe you don't, but I do have a fear of heights. And if I'm standing on the edge of a cliff, it's like this fear that something is going to pull me over the edge and I'm going to die, even though it's completely ridiculous. But it just is a fear, it's a gut level fear.

Well, we try to stay away from the edge in that case. And very much how money makes us feel is it almost like we have two different cliffs that are looming large in our eyes. And it turns out that men tend to have this fear like, am I going to be able to provide for the family? And it's that is very much their cliff, like it feels like it's pulling at them.

They're going to be pulled towards the edge, they're going to fall over and die. And it's not just them, it's the family because I'm not enough as a husband or I'm not enough as a provider. So what you do when you have that fear, and that's how money is making you feel, is you try to back away from that edge. And so often a guy, and this is statistically the case, a guy will often, okay, I just have to work a ton of hours.

I was talking to the wife of a policeman just recently who was like, my husband is taking every conceivable overtime hour that he can right now to try to build up savings in such a time of economic uncertainty. And she's like, but he's never home. And when he is home, he has the black cloud of doom following him around the house because he's so stressed and anxious. Well, that pulls her towards her cliff fear, which statistically for most women, not all, but most women are worried about the finances too. Like they're thinking about that as well, but it's not the same feeling like this cliff is pulling at me. For her, she is more like, not is our money okay, but are we okay?

And when you're walking around with a black cloud of doom over your head as my husband, the answer to that question is no, no, we are not okay. And so she tries to stay away from her edge. And that usually means for a woman, it's often doing things together, spending time together, getting takeout, food, to have a family dinner.

I mean, during sort of normal times, going out to the movies, doing something as a vacation. And well, guess what? That makes him feel like he's getting pulled towards his edge. I don't know if I'm going to be able to provide. So it turns out that our attempts to stay away from our fears can make our spouse's fears worse. And we have to be able to understand that is how money is making each of us feel what is going on underneath the surface. So we can actually talk about it.

Yeah. Well, Shanti, if money is not the real issue, let's get to the heart of the matter. You write about five key factors that impact couples and money. And the first factor is that we have different values around money.

Explain that to us. Well, it turns out, and this is something I think you and I have talked about over the years, you know, just these differences between people. And it turns out that when it comes to money, that we don't realize we're not valuing what our spouse is valuing. We know we're different, but somehow it doesn't make it through our heads that that means that this other person cares about something different, maybe, than I do.

And I'm not recognizing that what they care about, what matters to them, is totally legitimate. And I'll give you an example that's very sort of timely based on what's been going on in recent months in the economy and health and everything, which is, you know, a lot of people sort of, when a time of great economic uncertainty hits, suddenly all of the savers of the world, because often there is someone who's, you know, a saver and maybe not as much of a saver, or a spender who is married to each other. And all of the savers of the world are suddenly feeling very vindicated, right? Like, well, I told you we should have been saving all that money. And, you know, the savers often, that's their value of feeling like we need to be building up a big savings account, big retirement account.

For example, we don't go out to eat or we don't go to the movies or we don't go on vacation to the same degree. We don't purchase these things to the same degree as you want, my spouse, who's more of the spender. And, man, it would have been great if we'd had that extra $2,000 back from that vacation we took, right? Like that's sort of, there's sometimes some resentment even in the heart of some of the savers maybe listening to this. Well, that's one value, and that's a good value.

It's not like that's bad. However, a different way of looking at it, if a spender type more, a little bit more, was able to articulate it, they might say, well, yeah, of course being wise with money is important. That's a value to me as well. But you know what? God also says that he's come to give us abundant life and also said that we can trust him to provide and that, you know, okay, it's not, of course it's wise to have retirement, but I feel like he wants us to have good things for us now, not just in 30 years when we retire. And what about the guy who stored up all of his money in barns and never got to enjoy it?

Like what happens if, you know, we don't end up making it to retirement together? And I want to enjoy life now. And those are two different values. This is just one example. There are many, but those are two different values. And here's the thing that is really, really crucial for people to recognize is that both of those are legitimate. It's not that one is necessarily totally right and the other is totally wrong.

They're just different. And you have to be able to see what matters to your spouse as, yeah, you can be unwise about something. That's a different thing. But in general, recognizing and honoring that it's okay that they view things differently. And you have to be able to do that in order to start the process of coming together around it.

Yeah. You know, I was trying to pull to my mind the story, maybe you've heard it, of the lady who took her 40-year-old husband out for a ride and drove him to a rest home. And he said, why are we here? She said, because that's what you're saving for.

And I just thought I'd just bring you out here and let you see what it's like, you know, now. They've never heard that story. That's hilarious. What I hear you saying is it's natural that we will have different values on money. It's just one of the areas of normal human conflict. And if we respect each other's ideas and see the value in each other's ideas, because there's always some value in either of them, that we're far more likely to find a resolution and something that will work for us. Right. Than if we simply are my way is the right way. It's back to that my way is the right way thing, right?

Yes. Well, Jeff, my husband, he finally confessed when we started doing this project and we started realizing there are these different values. Like things that probably I guess we should have known, but you just kind of don't articulate or you don't realize. Oh, my goodness, this is how I feel. And he told me that he finally came to grips with the fact that his view of me in this area, because I'm more the spender, he's more the saver. His view of me is she just has a character flaw.

I just have a kiss. She just has a character flaw. I'm going to have to educate her. And OK, I'm not saying I don't have a character flaw. We all have character flaws.

And yet it's interesting. He was able to articulate and this is so crucial during the period when we were stuck at home with the coronavirus pandemic and during the period of total lockdown. He was able to articulate something and we were able to talk about something we never would have been able to kind of talk about in a healthy way if we hadn't recognized what was under the surface. He said, you know, I realized I did kind of resent that we went on this vacation or that we went out to eat these times or that we would go to the movies frequently or whatever, because I was thinking, man, I could have used that 20 bucks and that thousand dollars.

And, you know, we could use that now because we've lost, you know, most of the sources of income are very uncertain now for somebody who's an author and public speaker. And he was able to articulate that. And then I realized that your way of, hey, let's do these things together, that is what has brought us closer together as a family. And during this period of being stuck at home, wow, we like each other as a family. Like we get along, we're not at each other's throats. And some of the reason for that is because I was prioritizing stuff that would bring us together as a family.

It just happened to cost money. And how much is that worth? And so, again, neither of those is right or wrong, but he was able to go, okay, see the value of her values.

And of course, in a time of economic uncertainty, I could definitely see the value of his. Absolutely. Yeah. So I'm sure a lot of our listeners are identifying with what we're talking about because this spender saver thing is pretty common in relationships and usually one marries the other.

So the person that say, okay, I want to do this, I want to try to see the value in my spouse's thing and I want to respect their ideas. But how do I do that? How do I get started in that?

Do you have any ideas? Yeah. So the most important thing, there's actually two steps. You have to understand what's going on in your own heart. You have to understand what it is you value. And honestly, that is not as obvious as it sounds because spender saver stuff, that's easy to articulate. And it's not necessarily always that simple. You have to understand what's going on in your heart.

That's why we spent so much time trying to identify what these different types of values are in this project. So you can figure out, oh, that's me. That's not me.

Oh, that is me. So you know what's going on in your heart. You understand then also what's going on in your spouse's. And then you have to take each other's sort of into account. And it totally brings compassion.

And I'll give you an example of this. So when our kids were little, this is a common example for people who have young children, not just in our house, but in a lot of the interviews and the surveys that we did. Where if you have a young child and let's just say the night goes on and they're feeling miserable and they have a fever and it gets to be late at night and the fever is kind of going up. It is very, very common for one person of the spouse and I'll give you a couple and I'll give you one guess as to which spouse is more likely to do this. Where one spouse is much more likely to go, gosh, I feel like we need to call the doctor. And the other spouse is often the type that goes, you know, it's just a fever. Let's just give them Tylenol. You know, if we call the doctor and, you know, it's fine to call him and ask a question, but they'll probably just say, bring them into urgent care. And then that's 200 bucks and they're just going to give them Tylenol and say, call me in the morning. That's a very, very common dynamic.

And not recognizing that the value and this is often obviously the wife, not always, but often the wife, the mom is going. But we don't know what's going on. You know, there could be something underneath it that's really important. And it makes me feel better to take the kid to a doctor and be told it's OK and be told this is just a cold. It's just a fever. Watch them carefully and, you know, definitely call me in the morning. Don't worry, this doesn't look like meningitis. This doesn't look like something that's really urgent. And for a wife or a mom to be able to turn off that part of her concern.

I mean, it's still concern, but to be able to turn that off, is that worth 100 dollars or 200 dollars? For a lot of moms, they go, yeah, like even if money is tight, that's of concern to me. And often for when this is the way Jeff would often go, he would say, look, you know, pioneer children didn't go to the doctor. You know, they stuck it, you know, sucked it up and they were fine. You know, the pioneer kids didn't call the doctor. And of course, every mom goes, yeah, and they died. Your children died at eye rate. We have a doctor.

This is what we should be spending money on. Well, OK, those are two different values. Solving, resolving uncertainty and being able to turn off that part of my brain that's going to be worrying about this for the next eight hours. That is worth some money, whereas a husband is often able, a guy, and this is a male brain thing, is often able to sort of turn it off a little more easily because they say it's statistically very unlikely that this is a big problem. And those two values, again, neither of them is wrong or right. But one of the things that Jeff told me is that once he realized he wasn't paying $200 for the Tylenol and the doctor to say, call me in the morning. He was paying $200 to put his wife's mind at rest and to make sure his baby was OK, because guys care about their kids, too, just as much as the moms do. And it was more about recognizing what we were actually paying for. And that is an example of understanding each other's values that brings compassion rather than frustration.

Yeah. What about the spouse who says, well, I'm trying to understand my spouse's perspective, but my spouse doesn't seem to want to understand mine. What do you say to that person? Well, listen, realistically, this is one of those areas where it is in your best interest to help them understand yours by, and this is going to sound funny, by working to understand what's in their heart and by working to understand what is it that's bothering them. Like you may deeply, deeply want, deeply want your spouse to be willing to go, oh, man, yeah, of course we'll pay the $100 or $200 to take the baby to urgent care. Like that may just be something right now, every particle in your being is listening to this and going, I wish my husband would understand that, but he doesn't. And how can I get him to?

Well, okay, maybe that'll come, but how about you take some time to try to understand what's deep under the surface of his heart and that he's right now, and I'm giving you an example, okay, this isn't going to be everybody, but he's staring that cliff fear in the face. Am I enough to provide for the family? Do I have what it takes to be able to keep my job in the midst of uncertainty? Am I on some potential watch list with my boss where we haven't been getting along lately and every fiber of my husband's being is shredded by these questions? Where I think my husband is an amazing person and of course he's competent and of course he's able and capable at work and people recognize his value. Well, I feel that way as the wife, but maybe I need to look and see, gosh, he really does have this question deep in his heart that is he enough? Really? He does? And to actually go to him and say, talk to me about how it feels to be a guy right now. Talk to me about how it feels to worry about providing for the family. Really?

That's a thing? And if you listen to their heart and don't worry so much about here's my heart, but I'm going to try to understand yours. I really want to. Well, what happens when somebody feels understood, there's almost an automatic opening up instead of a closing down. There's an opening up that comes along with an opportunity to share what's going on in yours and have them care about it. Because they don't feel like you're just pushing and pushing for your interests. They recognize how much you care about theirs. It sounds to me like you're saying, believe the best about your spouse, no matter whether it's the wife or the husband, believe your best and move toward them and you'll be able to communicate about the deeper things.

Is that what I'm picking up? Yes, that's definitely part of it. It's partly believing the best of them rather than thinking that they're out to get you. They just don't care about the baby. They just don't care about what matters to me. Well, statistically, the chances of that are tiny. Okay, there's a small number of people who are just jerks. The chances that you're married to someone who's just a jerk is pretty low. Most of the time, it's truly that their heart is just troubled by something different that troubles you and they just don't recognize that that is truly something in your heart. So, believe the best that they do care about you.

But also, you do have to go that next step. Believing the best that they care about you is crucial, but understanding yourself and understanding your spouse enough that you can share, here's how that makes me feel or here's what's in my heart. Or is this in your heart like the idea of, do you worry about providing for the family?

Is that a thing? You really honestly feel like you might not be enough? I mean, that just surprises me because you're so competent and everybody loves you at work and talk to me about why you would feel that way. All of those things, digging out what's in the other person and being able to dig out what's in yourself, that helps, I guess the right word is that helps sort of educate the process of believing the best of the other person. Because now it's not just they care about me, but now it's, okay, they care about me and here's why they're acting this way. And here's the fear or the worry or the excitement or the expectation or the belief under the surface of why. So, it helps you understand the why. You know, Shanti, what I'm sensing as you share that is that there are individuals who are saying, man, that makes sense to me, but we have to acknowledge that doesn't come natural. I mean, by nature, we're thinking our perspective is the right perspective, just like my spouse is thinking the same thing. I mean, you have to hear this and understand this before you ever will even try doing this, but it's powerful. What you're describing is powerful when you really say to yourself, I know that behind their behavior, there's something there that's motivating that behavior and that attitude.

And if I can express interest in them and really let them share, then I can say, oh, okay, I see that. All right, now let me share my perspective. There's a big thing about listening, asking questions and listening, right?

It is. And I'll give you a very personal example of this, of where we unfortunately didn't know this earlier in our own marriage. You know, I've said we were just not on the same page.

Well, one of the examples of that, and I can't believe I'm going to share this on the radio, but you bring this out of me, Kerry. And I can't remember if I told you this example when we were together at a speaking engagement recently, but one of the very personal examples of this is that for years, Jess wanted us to go to Dave Ramsey together, and I was just like, oh, my gosh, because our church was doing it. And I was like, oh, I'm traveling so much. And I kept kind of finding excuses not to go.

I'm traveling, I have this, I have deadlines, I just wouldn't be able to go all the time. Well, okay, those were reasons, but they weren't the real reason. And I just didn't want to go to Dave Ramsey with him.

And so this is embarrassing, but Jess finally went alone, because I wouldn't go. And then we started doing this research. And we started understanding what was underneath the surface, in his heart, in my heart. And this was one of the things I was able to articulate eventually, that I was thinking, if I go to Dave Ramsey with this man, we're going to come back from that course, or whatever the equivalent course is at your church, right? Some people might feel the same way. We're going to come back from this course, and he's going to put us on the equivalent of a 500-calorie-a-day diet.

We're going to be eating franks and beans every day for the next half a year, because that's just tendency, right? He tends to be an all-or-nothing kind of guy, and we would go full speed ahead, and we wouldn't have any joy in life. And, you know, well, once Jeff realized that that was what was underneath the surface, that of me being unwilling to engage, because that's what you're talking about, as sort of a spouse who has someone who's kind of unwilling to engage in this. Jeff realized it would have changed everything if he would have been able to reach out to me and honor that concern.

And say, look, this is important to me that we go to Dave Ramsey, that we figure out budgeting a little bit better, and, you know, whatever. But, listen, I understand that you're worried that I'm going to put us on one of our super strict, you know, money where we're not going to have any money for life, and we're not going to go on to the movies for three years, or whatever. Like, I understand that you're worried about that.

And, you know, I promise, you know, I will honor your concerns through this as well. But hearing that would have opened me up to feel like I could trust him and trust the process, and that I had a voice to be able to say, this matters to me, even though it doesn't matter to you. And that right there is kind of the crux of why we think it's so important that we try to work to understand what matters to the other person, and what's going on underneath the surface with these values and these fears, is because otherwise there's no way you can talk about them. And what we found in all of the research for this whole project, the greatest obstacle to living a life of financial freedom, the greatest obstacle to tithing and giving at church, the greatest obstacle to putting together a workable budget, it's not a lack of technical knowledge, necessarily. It's not that you have, you know, you're spending more than you save, or that, you know, you have some big issue.

Those things happen. The greatest obstacle is the inability of a husband and wife to sit around the kitchen table and talk about it. That's the greatest obstacle. And we can't really talk about it well unless we understand the stuff that's under the surface and honor that in each other.

Yeah. You know, what advice would you give to someone who is saying, yeah, I really want us to be able to sit down and talk about finances and to work through things and our different opinions and so forth, but my spouse is not interested in that. I mean, they don't want to talk about it.

They won't talk about it. What do you say to them? That's where it comes to that example I shared of me, right?

It would have made all the difference in the world if I would have felt like Jeff was willing to understand me and willing to honor what mattered to me rather than just kind of, he had this idea of plowing forward with what mattered to him. And it'll be vice versa for some couples, you know, where it's one person or the other is wanting to talk about it for various reasons. And the other person just isn't. Well, the reason that they're not willing to talk about it is probably that they feel that you don't really care about what they care about, that you're not honoring what they honor about. You don't understand their fears. You don't understand the stuff that's really going on under the surface.

And honestly, they probably can't even articulate what those things are. And so that's the reason for this whole project is to try to help people see, this is me. Oh, my goodness, I finally have words to be able to articulate to my spouse what matters. And once you can go, oh, I get it, and reach out to the other person and say, I see why I've sort of shut you down. It's not just that you've shut down.

I've shut you down. I take ownership of my piece of that. And I'm going to try to understand and care about what you care about more.

Yeah. So let's say that a listener is hearing all of this and they're saying, I'm going to get this book. I'm really going to get this book and I'm going to read this book.

But I know my spouse is not going to read it. What approach can they take? Once they learn some of this. We actually have developed a process for that exact situation, actually.

Wonderful. We actually have two tools that we suggest to people. One is we have a self-assessment at our website, totally free. It's at thriveandloveandmoney.com.

That's our website. And you can take the assessment and it's all about, where am I starting? Not where are you starting as my spouse and get on the same page, please. It's where am I starting and where are we starting? Like what in this area of love and money, in this area of marriage and our finances, what is it that we most need to work on? And again, this is not just about, this is not technical budgeting stuff. It's the relationship stuff that has to come first.

So we know how to be able to talk about it. And so that's the first thing I would suggest. It takes five minutes. It's super simple but it's really robust underneath the surface. But then the other thing is for people whose spouse just, you know that they wouldn't read the book.

You know what? That is 100% fine because one of the other tools that we suggest is that you read the book with a pen in hand. And you highlight and you circle the stuff that's about you. You try to figure yourself out in a way that you never would have articulated before.

Like the concept of, oh man, it is totally true. Like I feel like even though I'm probably good at my job, I never feel secure. Like I feel like I'm always going to be on my boss's watch list.

So I have to put in tons of hours at the office and tons of face time. I wouldn't have been able to articulate that to myself before. So you make those notes about yourself. Then as you go through it, if your spouse really isn't interested in participating, try to identify the things like I think this is what my spouse has been feeling and trying to tell me. And I just didn't realize that, oh my goodness, 78% of other people think this way too.

It's not just them. And you highlight and you circle those things. And then that gives you a starting point to be able to go to your spouse and point to a statistic in the book or point to a sentence and go, is this how you feel? Is this what you've been trying to tell me? And suddenly there's an opportunity for a conversation that maybe the other person never felt safe having before or just didn't understand themselves enough. And maybe if they feel engaged by that, then maybe they'd be willing to go through the book with their own pen and their own highlighter and highlight and circle the stuff that applies to them.

And this is how I feel, and this is, oh my gosh, this totally is me. And then what you can do, we call it the love and money exchange. And then what you can do is read each other's comments. And suddenly you're getting a personalized tour into the other person's heart and the other person's mind when it comes to how they feel about money and in all these different areas. And once you have that personalized tour, suddenly, and this is what we found for the vast majority of couples, believe it or not, talking about it and growing closer about it, it actually kind of comes naturally. You don't have to struggle anymore because you are absolutely 100% attuned to what is going on in their heart and mind and you see it and you go, oh my goodness, this is what's going on, this is what you're thinking, isn't it? And suddenly the other person feels understood. And, you know, as you've seen in your work, Gary, when someone feels understood, they just open up so much more. You know, Shanti, what you describe of reading a book, highlighting, circling things you read about yourself, I love that idea, but it's the opposite of what people do.

We read a book and highlight the part from a spouse, boy, they need to see this, boy, they need to see this, put a star by it, put their name on it. And you're turning the whole thing around. It's brilliant.

If a spouse is willing to take this book, even if the other spouse is not interested and do exactly what you said, I think they can open up conversation with their spouse because they're focusing on understanding themselves and then getting ideas of questions they can ask their spouse. Is this how you feel? It's just great.

Let's switch gears here in our last little bit. You and Jeff are social researchers, but you're also followers of Jesus. Why do you think Jesus talks so much about money and so often in the New Testament? Well, you know, it's really interesting when we were digging into this from that perspective, from the faith-based perspective of this, it really is true, actually, that Jesus did talk about money more than any other single topic.

And it's so interesting, like, why is that? And here's what we kind of realize it is after doing the research and kind of seeing all this stuff under the surface, is, look, we all know, I think, and we've heard pastors talk about the fact that money really is a heart issue, right? Like, there's a reason why Jesus said, you know, this is sort of the Matthew 6 verse, where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And you can tell what you care about by how you spend your money.

And we've all kind of seen that. Well, another way of saying that is, that's how you show what you value. That's sort of a clue or signal to what you care about, what you value, the different ways that you use money, whether it's spending it or saving it, all the different things we've been talking about. So it really reveals the heart. You know, are we giving? Are we tithing?

Does that show that we trust God? Well, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us don't necessarily recognize in this, is, yes, it's a heart issue and that it reveals where your heart is, but it also steers your heart. It's how you choose to handle money and how you choose to interact with your spouse about this.

It steers what you're going to be sort of feeling more and more and less and less. And a classic example that's really crucial to recognize, it's actually one of the other five factors that we found that matters, is so many of us kind of instinctively view money, and this is a subconscious thing, but we view money as like, that's your money and this is my money. Like, your paycheck goes into your account, my paycheck goes into my account, as opposed to, it's no longer you and me, it's we. It's no longer your money and my money, it's our money. And some people, it goes so far as, you know, we were talking earlier, your bank account, my bank account, hey, would you send me $150 for the gas bill? You know, that's really institutionalizing, I kind of don't want to be one in marriage, and it's coming out in how I handle money. That's institutionalizing a lack of togetherness, where God has said the two are supposed to be one.

And, you know, somebody listening to this may go, well, that's not me. You know, we don't separate our bank accounts and we're one. And maybe that's true, but maybe ask yourself, have you ever pulled the Amazon package off the front step before your spouse sees it? You know, just kind of to try to kind of, we just want to do what we want to do. And that's what Jesus is getting at, that's what he's trying to poke his finger at, is even in the best marriage, even where everybody handles money really, really well and they understand each other, all of us, every single one of us has a desire to kind of go our own way and do what we want to do.

It's a temptation that God says we have to fight and we have to really work on becoming one. And you know what? There is no better time for that than when we're in a time of economic uncertainty. And, you know, maybe before you could kind of get away with this is your money and this is my money and your paycheck and my paycheck, and we could kind of be two different people when it came to money. Well, now is the time we have to come together. Now is the time we have to be able to talk about it. We can't avoid it anymore.

And you know what? That's a good thing. I think that's the way God can use this time. I guess a good question to ask is, does the way we handle our money demonstrate the oneness of our marriage?

Or does it really indicate that we are still separate, the part of us is separate? You know, one of the things that, Carol and I only went for one hour of premarital counseling before we got married. And the only thing I remember that the pastor said was, I'm going to give you a suggestion about money. He said, everything's in the pot, you know, all goes in the pot, all the bills are paid out of the pot. But each of you should have a little bit of money every week or every month that you can do what you want to with.

He said, now, how much depends on, you know, what's available, but whether it's $5 or whether it's $50 or whatever, but a little money you can do what you want to with. So that neither of you has to go to the other and say, honey, may I have $5 to go do this? You know, so that makes one a parent and the other a child. Well, I thought it was good advice.

You know, I kind of like that. It's not that we have two separate accounts. And even that is more to do, as you said earlier, with attitude than it is whether you have two accounts. But the very heart of, and the reason I really, really like this book is you're dealing with the relational issues about money, not the nitty gritty technical stuff about money.

As you said, there's plenty of information out there about that. Well, if you had to say one word to our listeners before we leave, what would you say? Be encouraged. Because listen, if Jeff and I can do it, anybody can do it. It really is so much simpler than you think.

And it's so life-giving once you really understand yourself and understand your spouse in these areas. Okay, I know that's more than one word, but be encouraged is two words. And I think that's what I want to leave people with.

You can do this. Well, Shanti, this conversation has been really good. And this book, I think, is going to help a lot of our listeners if they will take the time, if even one of them will take the time to read it and do it in the manner that you described. So thanks for being with us today. It was a delight.

Thanks so much for having me on. If you're a little afraid of the subject of love and money, we hope this encouragement has come at a really good time for you and your spouse. If you go to the website, you'll see our featured resource by Jeff and Shanti Feldhahn, Thriving in Love and Money, five game-changing insights about your relationship, your money, and yourself.

You can also hear the broadcast again or let someone else hear it at fivelovelanguages.com. And next week, we're hardwired to seek comfort. But comfort usually doesn't move us in a good direction.

You're about embracing uncomfortable in one week. Before we conclude, a big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Todd. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.