The Glorious Pursuit - Gary Thomas

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Not licensed in Alaska, Hawaii, Georgia, Massachusetts, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Utah. How to become who God created you to be today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. Viewed practicing the virtues like a bodybuilder today can develop biceps and triceps and shoulders with various exercises.

You lift humility, you lift gentleness, you lift patience, you lift courage, and it shapes our souls just like bodybuilding shapes the physical body. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, the author of Sacred Marriage and many other books, Gary Thomas, talks about pursuing classic Christian virtues that will lead you on a glorious pursuit. That's the title of Gary Thomas' classic book that has been updated for a new generation, The Glorious Pursuit, Becoming Who God Created Us to Be.

You can find out more about it at fivelovelanguages.com. So we have two Garys on the program today. Gary, I feel kind of left out. Well, Chris, two things. Number one, we did not choose our names, nor did you. And secondly, God created you to be Chris, all right? Aren't you glad?

I'm glad. Well, I want you to meet Gary. You know Gary Thomas, Gary, but I want our listeners to meet Gary. He is a writer, a speaker. He serves on the teaching team at Second Baptist Church in Houston. He's the author of 20 books that together have sold some 2 million copies, have been translated into more than a dozen languages.

They include When to Walk Away, Sacred Marriage, The Sacred Search, the Gold Medallion Award winner, Authentic Faith, and many others. He holds a BA in English literature from Western Washington University, an MA in systematic theology from Regent College, and an honorary doctor of divinity from Western Seminary. He and his wife, Lisa, have been married for 35 years.

They have three adult children and one granddaughter. Well, Gary, welcome to Building Relationships. Great to talk with you, Gary.

I'm just afraid we're going to confuse people. I get told all the time when I'm doing a sacred marriage conference, people come up to me and say, your book changed my life. And I'm like, this is great.

I can't tell you how much "The 5 Love Languages" have been helpful. Well, I can't sign that one. You know, I used to have the same experience with Gary Smalley. You know, people come up to me, you know, and I told Gary one day, I said, they come up to me and say how much the book it meant. And then he wanted me to sign. And I said, I noticed it was your book. And I said, I used to tell them, you know, well, I'm not Gary Smalley, you know. I said, now I don't do that.

I just sign your name. And he said, you haven't signed nearly as many of my books as I have signed with "The 5 Love Languages" . Well, Gary's in heaven now. So he's done his part. So we've got to keep going though, Gary.

Yeah, he ran a good race. Yeah. Well, for those who don't know your work over the last 20 years, just give us a little summary of who you are and what God has done in your life. Well, I've been a writer for most of my adult life, which I'm very grateful to God it worked out because I literally have no other skills that anybody would pay me for.

I'm not very good with numbers or being over people or mechanics or music. And so I'm more grateful than anyone could know that I've just been able to study and write and done a number of books on spiritual formation, several on marriage, and I'm on the teaching team here in Houston, Texas with Dr. Ed Young as a senior pastor. Yeah. How long have you been there, Gary?

Just over a decade, 11 years. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, longer than I remembered. Yeah.

Okay. So let's talk about this book. It was The Glorious Pursuit. What does it mean to you then when you wrote it originally and now this revised edition? What does it mean to you today? Why do you see this as important? I grew up with a view of Christianity that was based on what you don't do, that I could quantify holiness by I don't do more things than somebody else that doesn't know Jesus doesn't do.

You know, the joke is I don't drink, smoke, or chew or go out with girls who do, but we've added a lot of other things onto that. And what I was thrilled with, and Dallas Willard was the original general editor of this, bringing in ancient Christian practices into modern times. And I was assigned this about practicing the virtues, and what I loved about it, it was a version of Christianity that's based not on what I don't do, but on who I'm supposed to become, centered on the person of Jesus. So it was a positive, inspiring vision of spiritual growth that was captivating for me. It was life-changing for me, just studying the virtues of Jesus, learning how to put them into motion. And I was excited going through that, then to share that with others.

It's very practical. It's been used by recovery groups as they're trying to stop doing something that's harmful, whether it's substance abuse or online issues or whatnot, focusing then. But it's important not to just focus on what you don't want to do. The call of Christ is who we are to become. Yeah, well, as you said, the spiritual practices that you talk about in this book started early in church history.

How do you think we drifted away from these practices in daily life and in the emphasis on these in the church? One of my most cherished spiritual practices is reading from the great Christian classics every day. People say, what are the great Christian classics? Gary, you know this, how modern publishing works, except perhaps for your books. Most books today have a shelf life somewhere between yogurt and milk.

You know, they don't last that long. And so when books have been passed down, not just through the decades, but through the centuries, and there are these recognized classics, there's something where you get this timeless view of what faith is all about. When I read through the classics, whether it's the fourth century, you're reading Augustine, or the twelfth century, and you're reading Francis of Assisi, or the eighteenth century, and you're reading William Law, one thing that they do hold in common is that the ancients valued holiness, while today's church tends to value salvation. Our question is, are you saved? And the ancients were always like, are you growing in holiness? I don't like to put those two questions against each other. I think are you saved is an important question, but because they valued holiness, they had an entirely different focus. We are so concerned, and again, good motives. I'm not against this, but we're so concerned about getting people into our churches that we haven't paid as much attention about what kind of people are coming out of our churches. And that's what spiritual formation is all about.

How do we grow to become a different kind of people? And the need for this to be updated and to come out again hit me when my wife and I were vacationing for a few days in Colorado. I'd just done a focus on the family program, and my wife likes to build on those trips and said, you know, there's some hot springs a couple hours out of Colorado Springs. She goes, let's spend a couple days there. Getting out of the Houston heat is always a fun thing to do.

And so it's a wonderful place. It's got these hot springs about, I don't know, eight to ten different pools that you can go into. And my wife and I were in this one pool. I'm guessing it was a bachelorette party.

I'm not sure, but I don't know. It's like eight to ten young women that were there, I'd say, in their mid thirties. And they all started talking about the amount of money they spent and the research and the doctors that were helping them to keep looking young. And one of them even said, all the Kardashians are doing this now. It was really kind of astonishing. And so my wife finally says, Gary, can we go to another? I go, absolutely. So we went to another pool.

And on our way out, my wife was asking me, does it bother you that I'm just not into that? And I remember telling, because I was reading William Law at the time. He is one of my favorite writers and I'm paraphrasing him here, but he was saying that we should earnestly pursue humility, patience, generosity, compassion, courage and kindness. Here's the key. With the same intensity that those in the world pursue, wealth, fame, worldly achievements and physical beauty. That we're all on this pursuit. And most people today, and sadly, a lot of Christians have those four things that we want. We want wealth. We want to reach our retirement number. We want a certain level of fame, whatever our focus is.

We want certain worldly achievements and we want to keep looking pretty good. And so we don't look any different to the world because we have the same values. And William Law says those who have met Christ, who have the opportunity to become like Christ and to help people reconcile themselves to Christ. He goes, we should live with entirely different values, but we've just lost that notion of this pursuit because it doesn't happen automatically. It's not the case that you've been a Christian for 20 years and you have 20 years of maturity. We've met plenty of Christians who have been Christians for 20 years with about 20 days worth of maturity. You know, we're going to talk about some of these virtues more in depth, but just briefly here in our opening session, just list some of those virtues. You alluded to some of them just a moment ago, I think.

So our listeners get a picture of what we're talking about. One of the key virtues is humility. The ancients called humility the queen of the virtues, and I'd say scripture backs that up in emphasis. There's surrender, detachment, love, chastity, generosity, vigilance, patience, discernment, thankfulness.

Gentleness is one that surprises people sometimes. Fortitude, obedience, and penitence. I'm not presenting that as an exhaustive list. Some aren't mentioned at all because, you know, a book can only be so long today. But those are certainly key components as you're starting to look at what this means.

It's enough to keep us busy for quite some time. Well, Gary, in our first segment, you told us some of the virtues that you cover in this book. The idea here is not to give us more rules to follow or try to measure up, right?

Right. It's really more about freedom. One of the things that John Wesley said, and he was considered somewhat controversial because he used the phrase Christian perfectionism. He spent his whole career trying to redefine perfection, and I think he probably regretted it at the time. But what he said that was inspiring to me, what I could take away from that, because with a lot of the classics, I don't agree with everything they say, but I still find things that inspire me. He said, I just decided if God can set me free, what level of greed am I willing to live with?

What level of pride is OK? How much lust is acceptable for a Christian? And if a little lust is bad, shouldn't every aspect of lust be bad?

And it was a vision for me. He goes, I determined I don't want anger to determine how I treat people with whom I disagree. I don't want lust to determine how I look at people of the opposite gender. I don't want greed to determine my relationship with money. I want it to be influenced by the presence of God and the Holy Spirit within me.

And so we could say it's not rules. I think it's more inspiring. Our glorious pursuit might be to become a great investor like Warren Buffett, a great golfer like Tiger Woods, a great artist like Rembrandt. And those are noble pursuits. But the Bible presents for us an option to become like Jesus Christ.

And I think of all the pursuits we can have, that's the one that inspires me. I think when you look at classic writers, Francis of Assisi is such a great example because his collections of writings are really small and not that much read because they're not that deep. It was his life that shaped history. He really wanted to live like Jesus. So people don't so much read Francis of Assisi as remember Francis of Assisi because they see this as a man who made others want to be more like Christ. What's the difference, Gary, between practicing these virtues to become more like Christ and then just the idea of just trying to be a better person or trying to be a nicer person?

It's a great question. And I think the difference is this. The virtues as a classical Christian spiritual formation discipline, it's not about being a nicer person. It's about becoming like Christ. This is centered on a real historical person revealed to us in Scripture who lives in us today through the Holy Spirit.

So there's this dynamic quality. It's not just trying to imitate Jesus. It's letting the Spirit within us reveal to us who Jesus is through Scripture, applying it to our life so that it is God transforming us. And so it's not culturally conditioned because in some ages different virtues are lifted up or put out of context. In the first century when Paul was writing, humility was looked at as a weakness by the Greeks.

It wasn't something that would be considered that you would want to emulate. And yet the Bible three times, once in the Old Testament, twice in the New, says God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. That was a culturally offensive message in its day, but it was beloved by the church that God wants humble people. And that's the only way to come to Christ is a humble person in need. So what I love about the virtues is they remove us from our cultural conditioning because our culture says this is the virtue that matters.

Sometimes the Bible might agree with the culture, but I'm not a prisoner to my culture. I'm focused on a real historical person living today through his Holy Spirit, helping me to become who Jesus was 2,000 years ago. I like the idea that it's not simply self-effort to develop these things, but it's allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us, right? Oh, absolutely. Now, I do think there is a certain amount of effort, and that's where, Gary, I may just be swimming against the tide because I think spiritual formation does take a lot of effort.

It's just that we're not on our own. Paul says, I struggle with everything, with a spirit that works so powerfully within me. And a key passage for me is Peter, who said in 2 Peter 1.5, and I want to remind the listeners, this is the apostle Peter speaking.

This is not Gary Thomas because they might think it's heresy if I was just saying it. But Peter says, Make every effort to add to your faith, and he goes on and lists these virtues and then says, For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, so you're growing in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. So while there is no effort to obtain salvation, Peter says we need to make every effort for that salvation to be worked out, not in the sense of going to heaven, but in being shaped into a person like Christ. And I think today, because we mix sanctification, experiential holiness with justification, how we get into heaven, people are wary of talking about effort. But I don't believe we could become like Christ. I don't believe we naturally grow in humility or gentleness or courage without human effort and cooperation with the Spirit's work in our life. Yeah. If it were all the Spirit, then everybody would be like Jesus, right?

I love that. Yeah, you're right. And that's a perfect example. And it's really where what Paul captures in Colossians 1 29 says, that's why I work and struggle so hard, depending on Christ's mighty power that works within me. And some people only talk about the mighty power and they don't talk about working so hard. Some people only talk about working so hard without God's mighty power.

Paul talked about both. Yeah, yeah. Now, you wrote the original edition of this book 20 years ago, and now you've come out with this edition.

What has changed in 20 years? If we're talking about 2021, the virtue that I'm trying to live with this year that is so challenging to me has a familiar name, but it might be a surprising application. It's the virtue of love. And love is a virtue. It's not sentimental.

It's not like Valentine's Day. It speaks of how Jesus was for everyone. Even when we were against him, while we were yet sinners, the Bible tells us Christ died for us, which tells me as a virtue, I have to be for everyone. I can't be against anyone. Now, I might be against what they teach. I might be against what they're trying to do.

I might have to say that is wrong. But even as I oppose them, my desire shouldn't be for their destruction. My desire should be that they become a brother or sister in Christ. So rather than having one less enemy, I want one more brother or sister in Christ that they could see the same grace that's been shown to me. And so even when I debate or disagree or even must oppose, it's done with this heart.

I am for you as God is for me, as God is for you. We disagree. I'm not going to pretend the disagreement isn't serious, but I can't be against you.

And that changes the way. I think the other virtue that is just so lacking today, frankly, is gentleness. Dallas Willard had a great question one time when he was asked, Why are Christians so mean? And I think people see like us today, and he says, I think it's because we focus more on being right than on acting like Christ. Now, the two don't have to be against each other, but what he's saying is it's not just the words of Christ. We need the manner of Christ, and the manner of Christ decidedly was gentle. Jesus rarely used virtues to describe himself, which is a little frustrating to an author who's trying to write a book on the importance of the virtues. Paul mentions them, but where Jesus does mention the virtues is Matthew 11 29, when he says, I am gentle and humble in heart. He usually used images on the light of the world, on the door, on the Good Shepherd.

But this was so significant to his being that he didn't want the early church to have to extrapolate. What does that mean that you're the light of the world? He says, Look, you want to know who I am?

Here it is. I am gentle and humble in heart. And so as Christians, we should be known as people who are humble and gentle. And I don't know that's the first two words that people would describe Christians with today. I think you're right. You know, no question about it. We live in a very, very divisive society right now. And it's almost like if they disagree with me, I want to do everything I can to destroy them and humiliate them and put them down and ostracize them.

Do you think that if a significant number of Christians could begin to practice these virtues, that it would impact and overcome the divisiveness that we see in our culture? I do. From the bottom of my heart, I believe that that is true. I'm old enough to know, remember when Tiger Woods was his first year on tour as a golfer. And what amazed most of us golf fans at the time was how it was the professional golfers who were in awe of Tiger because they knew how hard the game is.

And to see a guy master it like that, it was like, I can't believe it. And I think the reason we can be so judgmental is that we're not involved in the glorious. We're not trying to become like Christ. We have one area where we think we're holy.

Look, I have friends, I'm from the Pacific Northwest. They basically think if you're recycling, that determines whether you're a good person or not. You could be living with three different people, but as long as you're recycling and you don't drive a car very often, they find certain ways where they decide this is what it means to be a good person. But if you're trying to practice the virtues of Christ, to be gentle and courageous, to be patient, to be humble, to be loving, all of these things, it's like you start to realize, I've got so much to grow. I can't judge you. And I think we're like, if you have a baseball analogy, maybe somebody, a guy that's great at batting, but he can't field or a pitcher that can't hit.

And so we can laugh at people. But if you try to play the entire game, if you try to practice all the virtues, you realize what you're not because nobody naturally has all the virtues of Christ down, not even close. And so I think by being engaged in the glorious pursuit, seeing how difficult it is, how without Christ, how hopeless it is, it humbles me. It makes me less judgmental. OK, yeah, you're really working on your anger or you're really working on your greed or you're really working on your fear. You're really working on your patience.

But here are the five things I'm really working on. And so it's like I loved John Fisher. He was one of my favorite Christian folk singers from the 70s and 80s, where he just said, you know what, I'm just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. And I think when you're in pursuit of Christ, that's the humility that it leads you to. And it changes the way you talk to and with other people.

Yeah, yeah. You know, you alluded to this earlier, the emphasis on salvation, conversion to Christ, which obviously is the starting point. And we've got to come into the family before we're ever going to be like Christ.

But that's one thing. But spiritual growth is another thing. Now, when you talk about the virtues and building into our lives the characteristics of Christ, how does this interface with another word that we often use, and that is discipleship?

Is it one and the same or are those two different things? Well, I believe that growing in the virtues is an aspect of discipleship. It's not the full description of discipleship.

It's a subset. I mean, I think with discipleship, you've got to shape your mind. You've got to grow in prayer, surrendering to the work of the Spirit in your life. But I do think practicing the virtues is part of that. So I think it's crucial. But I'm glad you brought it up because this is not, although some Christian traditions may have presented it this way. I'm not presenting the virtues as a pathway to salvation. Practicing the virtues isn't about getting into heaven. It's really more about making my wife's life not feel like hell, if I can use that phrase. Because when you think about it, my impatience or anger won't send me to hell, but it will make my families much more frustrated. It's our loved ones that pay the price when we don't grow in Christ. And so we act like, OK, I've got the salvation taken care of, so it really doesn't matter. But that's a very selfish thing to do. OK, I'm fine.

And so I don't worry about how my unwashed laundry is stinking up life for my loved ones, my co-workers, those that work under me, over me, next to me, all of that. Thanks for joining us for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. Our guest today is Gary Thomas, author of The Glorious Pursuit, Becoming Who God Created Us to Be. You can find out more at FiveLoveLanguages.com. Gary, as I'm listening to you, Gary Thomas, I'm thinking about all of the disciplines that you're talking about and wondering what place can I go?

What closet can I go in and perfect all of these? And it strikes me that these cannot ultimately be really, they can't sink down deeply into my life and soul outside of community. I've got to be in relation with other people in order to test them out or test my own heart. Is that true? That's exactly right. Look, I love to read the classics, but the classics aren't scripture. And some of them I would fundamentally disagree with, particularly the desert fathers that would go out to the desert. Now, there was a purpose.

They were involved in contemplation and they would talk about spiritual warfare. But I do believe there is an aspect of spiritual growth that requires community. That's what's led me to write my book Sacred Marriage, which I maintained at the time was more about spiritual formation than marriage, how God uses marriage to shape your soul. And it hit me because one time I looked at my wife when she was a young mom.

We had a toddler and a baby, and every listener that's been in that situation knows how exhausting that is, particularly on the woman. I mean, I'm trying to help as much as I can. And I'm just thinking about this woman is a saint. She's taking care.

She's giving all of herself. And I realized these monks and nuns that kind of wrote for monks and nuns, I thought the thought of her going away for a weekend by herself to meditate and pray and have salt, that would be an absolute vacation out of all of the demands and busyness that she was facing. And I said, look, if you want your patience tested, don't go to a monastery for a weekend. Get in at the time a minivan with three kids, drive with your spouse and try not to get into arguments in the first hour, things like patience and managing anger. I never faced anger like I did until I became a parent because your love makes you care so much. And so you realize the stakes. And so anger was a whole different issue after I became a parent. I never faced fear like I did until I became a parent because suddenly it's not just me.

I was fearful for my kids. I never saw my own selfishness until I got married and could see it in the mirror of how I would treat my wife. And so I do think marriage and parenting and friendship can reveal to us those character qualities where we're just lacking. And that's one thing that I do disagree with one tradition of Christian spirituality, where we become holier by going out to the desert.

I think we need to withdraw, but I think we need to come back together if we want to see the growth take place. Early on in the program, you talked a little bit about this, but the legalism thing. How do we keep even this, you know, striving to grow in these virtues from being legalistic or feeling guilty? Yeah, I love it when Peter says, I mean, it's what proves to me scripture is so inspired because I can get so much out of one passage.

I mean, again, as a fan of the Christian classics, an entire book of the Christian classics isn't worth one chapter of Paul or one chapter of Peter. And when Peter says in 2 Peter 1, I talked about it before, making every effort to add to your faith, he says, if you possess these qualities in increasing measure. And so he's telling me it's not about perfection, it's about progress. Am I gentler today than I was five years ago? Am I acting more humbly today than I was five years ago? That sounds absurd to people, but maybe if I can just take a side way to show how you can tell you're growing humility.

I will never become humble, but I can practice humility, not in a legalistic way, but here's what I gave to my kids. I said, most people your age are going into parties. I go, the proud person is going into the party thinking, is my hair okay? Will they notice my shoes? Will I be witty? Will people be inviting me in so I'll be the life of the party? And I said, if you do that, you'll never be fully satisfied because it's a lust just as much as money or food or sexual lust.

It's never fully satisfied. I go, because you'll never be noticed enough or they notice your shoes, but not your hair. I go, but the humble person, I said, the humble person goes into a party and their prayer is, Lord, who can I notice? Who can I encourage?

Is there someone I can bring in that seems they're on the outside? How can I be your servant to bring them in so that they're noticed and respected and they leave that party feeling better about themselves? I said, you'll always leave the party satisfied because there's always someone who needs to be noticed, who needs to be encouraged, who needs to be brought in. So I can choose to practice humility regardless of what's going on in my heart.

I can just say I want to be there, not for myself, but for others. And here's the thing. This is also where I kind of swim upstream with popular thought. I do believe inside out change is the foundation of Christianity without the Holy Spirit regenerating us, remaking us, being born again. It's all wasted effort.

On the other hand, I do think brain science and scripture says there's outside in. As I practice humility, I become more humble. As I practice gentleness, I become more gentle because of neuroplasticity. When you create a habit and an action, it literally shapes your brain so that that becomes more and more your default position. So it's an increasing measure.

It's not just legalistic. Oh, I blew it that time. Look, if you tested my humility by how I drive in Houston traffic, there are more failures than successes. But there are some days where I wake up and pray, Lord, I want to be a humble driver. I want to let people in. I want to be a blessing on the road.

And you know what? A hundred percent of the time I might arrive at work 37 seconds later, but I have a much different heart. I have much more joy. And I say, why don't I do this every day? Gary, you say in the book, and I'm quoting here, practicing the virtues is a highway to experiencing Jesus.

Explain what you mean by that. Because it roots us in who Jesus is and we see how far we are. I've got a couple friends who are PGA golfers. They're on the tour and they condescended to me to take me out for a round one time. And when you play next to them and see how they hit it and how they can putt, I mean, our scoring was I was trying to beat my score, their two scores combined, right?

That's the only way we could do it. And I think when you try to practice the virtues of Jesus, you realize we're not humble. We can practice humility, but we're not. It's the way that Jesus gave up heaven to take on flesh and become a man. And when we try to practice love and we see that Jesus loved those that were left out and he loved those even as they were crucifying him.

It's just you just realize, OK, I can never be like that. But it gives you an awe and worship of Jesus, because I guess once you start to play the game, if I could use that analogy, you see how good Jesus is at it that you'll never get there. But it gives you a new awe and wonder at who Jesus is, not how society says he should be or how people say, well, I think Jesus is this way. You're looking at his version.

Well, the Bible tells me he's this way. And it's the most perfect human who's ever lived. Someone worthy of worship, worthy of surrender, worthy of giving our lives to. Yeah, yeah. How is the pursuing of virtues in our culture, the idea of been polluted through the years and put down? Yeah, yeah. I think virtues has become and I even think one sense my publisher maybe wanted me to find a different word, because it's been so looked at through this pietistic lens of being killed joy and people that don't laugh.

And the whole image throughout the book that I tried to present, it's really about getting our lives back. When I talk to somebody where their anger isn't under control, I know their relationships are a mess. I know they're pushing their spouse away. I know they're putting their job at risk. I know their kids aren't able to relate to them.

And I just want to say, is this how you want to live? Other guys will come in and they're dealing with lust and it really shrinks their relationships. They don't know what it means to have a sister in Christ. They don't know what it means to have mothers in Christ or daughters in Christ.

They've just shrunk there. Is this really the only way you want to relate to women or people where they can't get enough money? They're materialists.

They're greedy. And you're saying, have you ever known the joy of giving, even when it hurts and the blessing of seeing others? I believe the virtues are the way that we get our life back.

It's who God created us to be. And the world will never satisfy us. I heard an amazing testimony from a former porn star, believe it or not, who said that she thought she would be happy when she had hundreds of thousands of fans. And during that time, she was a drug addict, losing almost all her money on drugs and suicidal.

And she became a Christian and a mom. And it's this beautiful statement. She said, I finally realized why getting everything I thought would make me happy didn't. And she said, having hundreds of thousands of fans can't satisfy me because I'm not created to be praised. I'm created to give praise. That's just a brilliant statement of the Christian life that you can try to be praised, but you won't be.

It's why all these rock stars that have tens of thousands of people all but worshiping them and then have to go do drugs as soon as the last guitar is silent because it can't satisfy us. This is what satisfies life in Christ. And so the virtues really point us to that as getting our life back, a fulfilling life, the life that God wants us to live. So someone might be listening today who's a Christian, they believe in God, they go to church, but they're about where they were 10 years ago in their walk with God. Why is it so important that those who know Christ really be seeking to grow in these virtues? I would just say at the end of your life, I would go back to the William Locke quote that I gave that we should earnestly pursue the virtues the same way the world pursues wealth, fame, worldly achievements and physical beauty. Because there will be a day that we die. We're seeing some of the great stalwarts of the faith that have passed on just even within the last 12 months or so. And if your greatest pursuit is wealth, fame, worldly achievements and physical beauty, those are the four things you can't bring with you.

You can't. But when it's a character and how do you want people to remember you at the funeral? What they'll usually do is that's when they'll go to the virtues. She was so kind.

She always had a listening ear. He was so humble. God had used him so powerfully and yet he was always putting the emphasis on others and trying to lift others up. I think that's how we want to be remembered.

But even more important, the virtues aren't about people appreciating me. It's hopefully it will point them to Jesus. That they'll say, you know what, there's a different presence. Jesus said, seek first the King of God and his righteousness. Jesus said we should be all about the kingdom and growing in righteousness so that we witness to another kingdom. There's another work going on beyond politics, beyond culture, beyond human fame. Let people see different people.

That's why I go back. We're so focused on getting people into church. If we would focus a little more on what kind of people are coming out of church, we might actually get more people in. But right now they don't see a difference because we're not seeking first his righteousness.

We're seeking wealth, worldly achievement, fame and physical beauty. Gary, as we begin our last session, let me ask you this because I think a lot of Christians have this idea. If I am obedient and seeking to build these virtues into my life become like Christ, is God then obligated to bless me? No.

Here's the thing. Usually they will. The virtues are like the Proverbs. They're not commandments. They're wise statements that you do well to base your life on, but they're not absolute commandments. And so usually the Proverbs say if you do this, you're likely to prosper, you're likely to grow.

But there isn't a guarantee. You look at somebody like Jeremiah who lived a virtuous life and yet was put in a cistern, was taken prisoner, was often threatened. So we don't know what times we're in. And I think it's important to say that we look at the virtues as points of wisdom literature and not as commandments because the same Jesus who said, turn the other cheek, told his disciples to buy a sword. The same Jesus who said he was gentle in Matthew 11, 29, forcefully chased the money changers out of the temple using a whip in John 2, 15. In Matthew 5, 22, Jesus is calling someone a fool, put you in danger of the fires of hell.

In Matthew 23, 17, Jesus calls the Pharisees and scribes blind fools. So we have to realize that Jesus applied the virtues where they were supposed to be applied. It's sort of like defensive driving. Most often in a car, you should apply a brake to avoid an accident.

Sometimes applying the gas and driving around the danger is the best thing. And so that's where I love the virtues being rooted in a person, not in some abstract stoic list of these are abstract characteristics. It's Jesus who really interacted as a real person in history with real people and seeing how we applied them. They should guide our life, but they are more along the lines of Proverbs than they are commandments.

Yeah, that makes sense. You write that virtues actually build on one another. Do we have to master one and then go to the next one or how does that normally flesh out? No, but the more I grow in one virtue, the easier it is to add on to others. Patience and gentleness are so key with each other.

When you grow in patience, it's easier to be gentle with other people if anger is running your life. And so I think when we recognize that they build on each other, just as vices tend to build on each other. Gary, when you talk to couples, one of the great dangers in a marriage is lying because usually one sin leads to another sin and then you lie to cover it up and that leads to another sin. Sins tend to pile up. They're rarely orphans.

They usually have a lot of children and even grandchildren. Well, the virtues are that in a positive sense. When I'm aspiring to be humble, there aren't really many vices I could commit. If I'm humble, I'm not going to steal from you.

I would rather go hungry than take something that's yours. If I'm humble, I'm not going to gossip against you. I want to encourage and build you up, not tear you down just so that I could look witty. And so practicing one virtue helps us to practice all virtues, just as committing one sin puts us in danger of committing many sins.

Yeah. One of the virtues you talk about is chastity. And you indicate, and I think it's pretty obvious, that the church is not talking as much about this today. Why do you think that's true?

Because it just goes against our cultural view. It's like you can be a Christian, but not when it comes to sexual ethics. And what's been distressing to me is that even Christians are attacking other Christians with this. That if we just love and serve and do things like social justice, that's what everything is all about. And yet we know in the book of Revelation, when Jesus was talking to the church in Thyatira and this church got everything right. Jesus said, this is a quote, I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance. That church excelled in everything that some contemporaries tell us to do.

Love, service, devotion to Jesus. But she had one glaring omission. She was tolerant about sexual immorality. And Jesus held that against her.

He said, I've given you time to repent, but you're unwilling. And so there's going to be suffering that follows. So Jesus thought it was significant enough that it's not enough just to be loving and to tolerate that. And Paul, I think, tells us why in 1 Thessalonians 4, when he says it's God's will that you should be sanctified, that you should avoid sexual immorality. And here's the key, that each of you should learn to control your body so that no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. As the creator of our bodies, as the designer of sexuality, Jesus knows how much hurt and pain is experienced when sex is taken outside of the context of marriage. And so it's about protecting others and we're tempted to abuse others.

And so it's something that our culture just flat out disagrees with. But again, this is why we have to look at Jesus and the words of scripture that say this matters. Jesus talked about it. Paul talked about it.

We need to surrender to it. It's God's best plan for a successful flourishing life. Gary, as we come to the end of our program, what would you say to someone who is outside looking in? They may have gone to church earlier, but they drifted away. What's on your heart for that person? My heart is soft for those who were led to pray a prayer of salvation and then left on their own.

They said, you've been forgiven, you're on your way to heaven, which is great to know about your future, but it's no help in the presence. We've lost this notion of God can give you victory over the greed, the lust, the anger, the impatience, the arrogance that makes your life miserable and affects so many relationships. But the Bible has a plan.

Peter talks about making every effort. Paul promises that the Holy Spirit will work so powerfully within us. We have the character of Jesus as a model and the Holy Spirit as a real active agent within us to transform us, where you can experience a level of Christianity you've never known before. Being a Christian isn't just about what happens when you die. It's about how you love, what you value, and what you do while you are alive. That's what the virtues point us to, experiencing the reality of the salvation that we hold dear, looking forward to heaven, but being able to experience a little bit of that heaven here on earth. How would you see a listener today using your book to help them move down this road of growing in virtues?

It's been re-released after being out for 20 years. I've seen many people use it in different ways. Some singles just for their own spiritual growth. A lot of recovery groups, I didn't anticipate that.

When they would focus on 12 steps and what they wanted to avoid, the teachers would bring in, but this is what we can practice. It's been used in a lot of Sunday schools or a sermon series where you could say, hey, let's talk about the kind of people that we want to become, where we can celebrate who Jesus was and realize that we can become more and more like that. So I do hope it brings a resurrection to the church of this ancient practice.

It's not unique to me. I didn't think this up. I'm just more of a reporter of what it means to practice the virtues. The Christian classics, the ancients viewed practicing the virtues like a bodybuilder today can develop biceps and triceps and shoulders with various exercises. And the ancients said, this is how we build our souls. You lift humility, you lift gentleness, you lift patience, you lift courage, and it shapes our souls just like bodybuilding shapes the physical body. I believe we've lost emphasis with that, and I believe it will make the church richer, individual lives richer, and relationships richer if we can get back to it.

Yeah. Well, Gary, thanks for being with us today, and thanks for your effort to re-release this book, as it were. I do hope that the whole new generation will see the value of what we're talking about today. So thanks for being with us and keep up the good work. Thank you very much. What an encouraging hour with Gary Thomas today. Find out more about what we've been talking about, that resource, at FiveLoveLanguages.com, the glorious pursuit becoming who God created us to be. Again, you can go to FiveLoveLanguages.com. And Gary, next week, we're going to take questions and comments from listeners on our May edition of Dear Gary.

That's one of your favorite times of the month. Yeah, I always enjoy responding to our listeners, whether they have questions or whether they have comments. 1-866-424-GARY is the number to call.

You can do that right now. 1-866-424-GARY. Well, a big thank you to Steve Wick and Janice Todd for their work behind the scenes, and thank you for joining us. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.