Jamie Metzl is here, former member of the WHO Advisory Committee, former National Security Council official, and the Clinton administration, and author of the book Super Convergence, how the genetics, biotech, and AI revolution will transform our lives, work, and world. A longtime Democrat, Jamie Metzl, welcome back. Thanks so much, Brian.
Really happy to be here. You didn't mention and a longtime friend of this show. Absolutely.
I should bring that up. Ukraine Russia war. Where do you think we're at right now? I'm really worried. I mean, certainly you have been a very strong and vocal supporter of the Ukrainians.
I have been so as well. What they have done is heroic. We all recognize that after three years, this war is at a stalemate, and the President of the United States should play an important role in bringing it to an end. So I don't have any problem with the United States playing that role. It could be that President Trump has some kind of secret plan, and there are things that are happening underneath that I don't see. But from what I've seen so far, I'm concerned. Yesterday, the United States voted alongside Russia and North Korea against a pretty basic statement condemning Russia for invading Ukraine, calling Zelensky a dictator, appearing so far to be much tougher on our allies and partners and friends than our adversaries.
If it turns out that this critique is all wrong, and this is some kind of rope-a-dope strategy, nobody will be happier than me. But right now, I'm concerned because the architecture of Europe and NATO, which we set up not because of altruism, but for a hard sense of our own interests in the aftermath of World War II, is dependent on everybody believing that the word of the United States counts for a whole lot. That's why we don't have 10 million soldiers in Europe. And if people don't know where the United States stands, whether with our allies in Europe or our adversaries in Russia, I think that's going to be a real problem. And if Putin has something that looks like a win to him, this will not be the end, because for Putin, this is not about territory.
This is about sovereignty, and it's about the future of Europe. So I hope there's a strategy. I hope that we're not seeing everything, but I am concerned. So here we are. I'm going to meet with Marco Rubio today.
We'll bring back the interview tomorrow and Thursday and Friday. But there's a couple of things going on. I don't love the UN proclamation. Who would ever think we'd ever side with North Korea, Iran?
You got to be kidding. But even Iran abstained. Right.
I mean, it's so heinous. So then they rewrote it and passed something. So what they said is, what Trump looks at as is this. He said, I need the bad guys and the good guys at the table. And if I start saying these are the bad guys, I am not going to get them at the table.
What's my objective? So it'll take all the slings and hours early for the ultimate objective. And here's what's the best possible scenario. I don't think they're leaving that 20%. Just like the only card they have to play is Kursk. They took that area, they're not letting it go of Russia. So they're holding on to that 20%. I think you don't have to you could do what they did in Korea, because they never said I gave up on North Korea. They said here's the 38th parallel.
Let's put that's where we'll we'll break it up for now. So let's say they keep that 20% and they get a peacekeeping unit of France, UK, pick up Sweden, Finland, whatever it is in there, with the promise that if they're ever attacked, I'm going to get them. So that's the point. But the point is, you know, if they're not going to get a peacekeeping unit, they're going to get a peacekeeping unit. So that's the point. But the point is, you know, America will come over the top. We're not going to be on the ground.
Right? Works. And then they need 550 billion to rebuild Ukraine. So you will now have an agreement, a ceasefire agreement and a trip wire, should they change their ways.
And if we give them all the weapons that we should have, that might have increased the chance, but they had a chance to take back this territory. Right now, the pressure is coming the other way. It's the Russians who are advancing and the Ukrainians. Slightly, right?
Slightly. But the Ukrainians who are putting up an absolutely heroic defense are weakening little by little. And so what you've just described, it's conceivable. If we get there, if we get there, if we had real security guarantees for Europe, if we double down and we made absolutely clear to Putin, if you take another step anywhere, not just in Ukraine, but in the Baltics and all these other places where you're trying to sow division, we are 100 percent with and behind our NATO allies. And I can see it.
And that's why I said, like, there are some ingredients there that could work. And look, having Donald Trump here, who nobody knows what he's going to do, there can be downsides of that, but there can be real upsides. And everybody is guessing. But what Putin is trying to do is not just seize a little bit of Ukraine. What Putin is trying to do is to destabilize this whole post-war international system and NATO and the European Union. And we can't let it go to that. But I'm willing to give President Trump and his team the benefit of the doubt. But we we need to articulate what are the principles that we're fighting for and then evaluate what progress is made against those principles. So a couple of things. Do you like the rare earth deals that could potentially be signed this week with Ukraine and the U.S.?
So I haven't seen the specifics. So in principle, it's a good idea if America isn't going to have boots on the ground, to have people on the ground, to have interests on the ground. So conceivably, this could be a win win the way it was initially articulated, as it's going to be a payback for U.S. assistance to Ukraine. That didn't make sense to me because, frankly, Ukraine has been fighting a fight on behalf of all of us, on behalf of the free world, standing up to this kind of aggression. But it's a good idea to tie Ukraine and the United States and Europe all together. And somebody needs to pay for a whole lot of things, including for the reconstruction of Europe. So I'm not against that in principle, but I want to see the specifics.
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Download the Redfin app to get started. Right, so here is what Emmanuel Macron said yesterday on how he sees Donald Trump's role, cut seven. Everybody has in mind all the losses and casualties and what the Ukrainian people lived during the past three years. I mean, they've been very brave and they just protected their territory and their sovereignty. And I think the arrival of President Trump is a game changer. And I think he has the deterrence capacity of the U.S. to re-engage with Russia.
So I think it's feasible. My concern is that we have to go fast, but we need something first, a truce, which could be assessed and checked and full-fledged negotiation. So truce, but he also went on to say, I was the one who signed, you know, we signed off on the ceasefire in 2014. What did they do?
Take more. And they still had the invasion in 2022. And he sat him down for seven hours. But he also sees it's something Vladimir Putin's got something with Trump and vice versa. And he came out yesterday and said, I want to offer the Americans a deal for our rare earth. And it's an interesting and I know this is also a play because we certainly have substantial rare earth and we have substantially more resources of this kind than Ukraine. He says, I would invite the American companies to develop aluminum reserves in Siberia, an issue that is estimated to be worth 15 billion dollars. So he's saying, I want investment.
Obviously, I think what I read between the lines they've they've been hollowed out. Five hundred thousand to seven hundred thousand casualties, half of which are dead, have to bring in North Korea, recruit Yemeni fighters to go fight. A million people have left from the brain drain.
And then you have basically pulled off the swift financial system. And we've had all the West has pulled out from McDonald's on down of their country. And it's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very miserable, especially miserable place to be.
Yeah. So I am very, very cautious of that offer. What I believe Putin is doing is dangling a carrot in front of us. And the perfect place that the Russians would like to be is right in the middle of us and China. Putin is in Xi Jinping's pocket.
He doesn't want to be that. But if he puts us in Siberia and and China has its eyes on Siberia, which has Lake Baikal, the largest freshwater resource in the world, and China has no freshwater, he's basically pitting us against China with Russia in the middle. So we really need to be strategic. I mean, we have rare earths here, minerals here in the United States. Yeah, but we have a hard time getting at those environmentalist 100 percent. So before we do what I consider to be surrendering to Putin in a way that delivers a message to Europe, it delivers a message to Taiwan.
We should say, hey, look at our of the dip. We need these rare earth minerals to make our technology work. We have to get them some way. One is by going on bended knee to China.
One is by going on bended knee to Russia. A better way is to figure out a way to mine them in our own beautiful, blessed country. But what about your Democratic friends, Jamie, in Minnesota, for example, that made up passed a law just to make sure we didn't do strip mining? Yeah. So, you know, I am a Democrat, but that doesn't mean I stand by everything that any Democrat does.
I mean, we have to weigh everything in the context of our national interests. That's why I'm here. That's what you and I are friends is, is that just because our party does something.
So I think the Democrats. Yes. Does everybody want to live in a clean environment? Does everybody want to, you know, not dig big holes in the earth?
But sometimes you got to do it to balance the interests. I'm Dana Perino. This week on Perino on politics, I'm joined by former GOP strategist and host of the Rich Zeoli show, Rich Zeoli, available now on Fox News podcast dot com or wherever you get your favorite podcast. Must listen to podcasts from Fox News audio.
