Denise Grace Gritsham: Politics for People Who Hate Politics

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Go to lifelock.com slash foxpod to save up to 25% your first year. Hey, we are back and with me in studio is Denise Grace Gitchum. She's a former White House aide and author of a brand new book, Politics for People Who Hate Politics, How to Engage Without Losing Your Friends and Selling Your Soul. Denise, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Brian.

Thank you for having me on. So what years are you in the White House? Oh, so I started on the campaign with Governor George W. Bush. I worked for Karl Rove. And a funny story that I actually include in the book is when we talk about our identities and how we identify as one party or the other. I had a misidentification when I worked on the campaign, which was I was the head of Hispanic outreach, but I'm actually Chinese. So I was kind of known as the Hispanic liaison during the campaign.

And then I went to the White House. I worked for Harriet Meyers and I went over to work for Attorney General John Ashcroft, who honestly, he was a living example of many of the principles that espouse in the book. Which was understanding and listening?

Just such a good man of faith who really lived true to his character and the spiritual principles that he espoused. Understood. So when you were there at the White House, what was the main takeaway that you that you still think about today?

Well, I remember what we campaigned on and what Governor George W. Bush, later president, lived up to, which was that he ran on a platform of being a uniter, not a divider, which really sounds foreign in today's political realm. Which is what you try to get across now. It is.

It's really something I believe is necessary. So in your book, Politics for People Who Hate Politics, you obviously don't hate politics. I love politics, but there's moments. I have my moments.

Right. Do you think it's changed dramatically since you were in the White House? I think everyone thinks things have changed. Maybe it's just a sign of my age, you know, back in the day, things were so good.

I think we all reflect, you know, with some sort of colored nuance that isn't necessarily true, like a rose colored lens. But I think it's always been acrimonious. I remember when we went to the White House after two recounts, it was pretty bad in Washington. 9-11 brought our country together. And I think it's so important that we we tap back into that feeling that we had after 9-11, because I don't believe that our greatest threat to America is external.

I actually believe that it's internal. It's our division. Right.

That is true. I almost feel like people are are percolating that and causing that. So you sit down at the Thanksgiving Day table and you look across and you hear your nephew or niece say, man, I was exhausted. I was protesting for the Palestinian movement last night and Hamas, I feel so bad.

They've been bombed so much. Obviously, to me, that would be something it's a no. It's either you engage somebody like that or you ignore them. How would you handle it? I think it's important that you never try to change somebody's mind. There's really no way to change somebody's heart on an issue. The best way to engage in a conversation like that is to, A, establish your motives first, which is you've really got to determine what you want the outcome of this conversation to be. Before you start it. Yeah, before you do, establish your motive. And that's to preserve this relationship. You know, you can't have any influence on people if you don't have a relationship with them. So really establishing your motive from the outside of the conversation and speaking your truth, B, would be speaking your truth in love. I think so many of us get so triggered.

I think really holding back and saying, OK, God, I always pray. Lord, help me to speak this truth in love. Because all of us have different perspectives on truth. And there might be something in what your niece or nephew are saying that has legitimacy. Maybe they're expressing compassion for the Palestinian people.

So you would ask him? Yeah, absolutely. Say, tell me why. Because people generally express anger. I learned this from my therapist. People generally express anger because there's hurt underneath their anger. And underneath that hurt is an unmet need. And so when we dig a little deeper and we look for the golden people, most people are full of gold.

And we're just so focused on the external that we don't dig deep enough to understand that. You don't realize that the minute you someone like you would bring up and go, so you protested for the Palestinians. Tell me about that. They know exactly how you obviously agree about Hamas. Yeah, it's going to be a rough conversation. But I think that if we decide from the outset, like I said earlier, that our intention is to really hear this person and not be so consumed with our own perspective and espousing it, that we're able to respect them and have honorable assumptions about them.

I think that we'll really learn a lot. We all have blind spots in our understanding of the world. And I think just having that humility and engaging with grace. And I really want to say this.

I can't overstate this. It's so important to recognize that unity is not the same as conformity. Our job is to speak the truth in love.

And there's no such thing as love separate from truth. And you could even look at what's happening in Israel. They have this consolidated government. Doesn't mean they agree on everything. They'll wait to the left, wait in the middle, then you got Netanyahu to the right. And they say, well, we now have a coalition government. But they still disagree, but they agree to work together. Right.

And you and I don't have political twins. I mean, do you know of anyone who agrees with you on 100 percent of everything that you say? No. But when they disagree with me, it turns out they're wrong. Yeah. They've done studies and everybody is wrong. It's scientific.

Right. It's science. I can't go against science. You know you can't question science. There's facts. And Anthony Fauci is science. Right. We know that he never could say anything wrong.

You got to read the book. So do you probably know him? Did you know him, Fauci? Oh, Fauci? No, I didn't work in the government back then.

I was happily ensconced in my home in California. All right. No, because I bet he was around during the Bush years. He might have been, but I wasn't cool enough to meet him. You didn't see him.

He didn't ask for his medical advice. So do you notice now we're more polarized than ever? I think, you know, we'll probably say that in 10 years. I think that, you know, I don't know that we're more polarized. I think our differences are actually just coming to the surface. I'm not sure that means that we ever were united as much as I hoped we would be. But I do think that these issues force people to pick a side. And I think the key for us is to decide that we're all on the same side.

We want the best. Even people who I completely disagree with, I generally believe that they think that what they're saying is actually the best. And if not, it may be that they just haven't heard all the perspectives.

And so you have two ears and one mouth. She used to do more listening and talking. Is there any time where you think to yourself, I got to walk away from this conversation? I mean, there's times.

Of course there are. I think that there's wisdom in that sometimes when you know you're not going anywhere and it's only getting worse. But I think it's key that you do stick around and try to listen as long as you can.

And when you leave, you just leave with love and grace. Right. In theory, that's good. You say a lot of people engage in distractions.

Yes. In what way? So I think that often we get distracted by what the real issue is. The real issue is that when we're talking about politics, we're talking about what's in the best interest of our country and each other. And I think that as long as we recognize that if we stay undistracted by all the noise, I think a lot of distractions come from the media. I think they come from the newspaper.

I think they come from Instagram. And I think that distracts us from what do we really believe in and what's the real truth here and how important are you to me? I think that question is at the root of it is relationally like, is this issue arguing about it more important than preserving this relationship? And you got Mary Matlin, obviously Republican, James Carville. I don't know how they do it. Right. The Democrat. They're both staunch, both directions.

So I guess they agree not to agree. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I used when I worked for Karl Rove, I used to fax things.

This is how old I am. We would fax things over to their office and you'd have to call in advance and make sure Mary was there to pick it up because you didn't want to accidentally land something in James's hands. But it's those days. I remember reading their book back when I was early in my political career, the days where a couple like that different in their politics could actually come together. I yearn for those days. I don't know about you, but I just missed the days when people could have a political conversation and it wasn't a conversation about you being bad.

It was a conversation about you being wrong. Kevin McCarthy. I still don't know why. And I'm sure in retrospect, if you gave them sodium pentothal, they'd say I shouldn't have done that, but they would never admit to it. And now we end up with Mike Johnson. We'll see how that long that lasts. But in the substory of the Republicans, you have those eight. And then you also have Marjorie Taylor Green is never going to agree with the New York congressman you have here. And then you have since the Israeli war started, you're seeing instead of the niche squad, you're seeing a huge maybe a third of the Democratic caucus disagree with mainstream Democrats. That is very unique.

It is unique. And again, I don't know that those issues weren't latent. I don't know that those feelings weren't always there.

I think they probably were. And these issues are actually bringing the forefront, which I think offers us a great opportunity because any time things are festering underneath the surface, it manifests in conversation or in your attitudes as disdain and contempt. And I think that when you're able to bring those into the open, you can start shining light on it. And let's start talking about facts. Let's start talking about the issues in a manner. I always believe in more speech. Let's put it that way. It's good. It's good for our political discourse.

Right. And do you also do you also believe that when things start breaking up into their sides and both sides get their nominee? I find this be an interesting time because you got to have a Democrat come out and say, you know, I'm worried about Joe Biden's age. You know, I see Gavin Newsom. He's got so much potential. But once Biden's firmly the nominee, you'll never get the you'll never get them to say, I don't see any weaknesses.

81 is young in my book. So now is a very interesting time. You could kind of play on the edges. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. It isn't an isn't because in the primaries you see all I was I ran for Congress in San Diego in 2016. And as you know, that was a very acrimonious season. That's really when a lot of the sort of the Trump's disdain. Yeah, it was really hard running down ticket from Trump. And it helped most people, just not in my district. And what you saw was just such a such strong feelings about about the candidates. And there was no way to bridge that conversation or no interest in even what anyone down ticket from him believed in. Everyone just assigned the same beliefs to all Republicans down ticket.

And so just distinguishing ourselves and just talking about the issues and how we might differ, even in nuanced ways, it's important to stay true to who you who you are and what you believe in and why you're out there. Yeah, understood. And finally, when you look at this after people like to blame Trump for everything.

Yeah. But after Trump goes, do you think things unite? Do you think it'll be easier for the parties to get together? You see any or is the Trump impact going to be felt for generations like Andrew Jackson was for a while? That's a great question.

You know, I haven't thought about that very much. I do think that the Republican Party has had a reckoning. I think the party that I have been involved in building forever, we've started to see cracks and even people who aren't necessarily identifying as Republicans are drawn to some version of Trump's Republicanism that is just different.

You know, I consider myself mainstream conservative, limited government, all the things that you think of when you think of classic conservative Trump kind of throw through a wrench and all of that and is making this question whether even the folks that we elect that we like so much from our party are actually looking out for our best interests. And I think that's healthy, right? I do think, too. Remember, if you start talking about the wall, if the Hispanic community will hate you.

Yeah. That was the autopsy after Mitt Romney lost. And there comes the president, the future president of the United States, and he says, yeah, we're building a big wall.

You know, Mexico isn't standing there best. And next thing you know, his numbers, he got better, more Hispanic votes than Mitt Romney got. Because he's speaking some truth. He's saying things that Trump is very unique in that he knows how to tap into the electorate and the sentiments that all the people in Washington, you know, I've been in and out of Washington. But when you're there, you really are in a bubble. The Beltway insulates you from reality. And so if you're just making policy without any real perspective, the people on the border are the ones that want to be protected the most.

It's the people in Eagle Pass, Texas, that are seeing thousands of migrants come over the border that want to be protected from the impacts of that. And Denise, Grace Gisham is our guest. So, Grace, last question, when you see now how polarized people are and they're about to go to Christmas, they're about to go to Thanksgiving, you know really what your relatives think already, roughly. And I know what you say.

Don't say they're wrong and don't look to win an argument. But are you better off overall talking more about the lions and the weather? How about them warriors? That's my life.

That's in San Francisco. I think, yeah, exactly that my team are the dubs. I think it's important that you read the room. You know, you just have wisdom about whether or not this person is maybe mature enough to have a conversation that's productive. But then if they're not and some, you know, we can't control other people. We've got to keep our eyes on our own paper. But just resolve in advance that whatever the conversation veers into, that you're going to be the person that adheres to these principles of speaking the truth in love. And again, this is easier said than done. Please recognize that I am preaching to the choir, which is myself.

I have struggled and I have failed and I continue to work at being the person I would like to be. And Dana Perino endorsed your book, says Denise says, great advice for steering clear of trouble so that you will never lose a friend because of politics. And she's also great at that, too. She's wonderful at it. She's exceptional. Denise Grace Gisham, thanks so much. Go out and pick up her book, Politics for People Who Hate Politics.

How to engage without losing your friends or selling your soul. Denise, thanks. Thank you, Brian.