152-God and Government with guest Jenna Ellis

The spiritual condition of America, politics, culture, and current events, analyzed through the lens of Scripture. Welcome to the Alex McFarland Show.

In Proverbs 14.34, the Word of God says, Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach or a debasement, a devaluing to any people. Hi, Alex McFarland here, and welcome to the program. We've got a very special show today. A very special colleague and friend that you'll meet in a moment.

But if you hear some background noise, kind of some ambient noise, we are on the floor of the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, NRB. Every year we get together in ministries, we strategize, we pray together to talk about the Great Commission. And with me right now is a very valued friend and colleague, Jenna Ellis. She's an attorney. She is the legal affairs voice for the American Family Association, where I've had the privilege of being on the radio for 16 years. And Jenna Ellis is on the radio live every morning, five days a week.

Jenna Ellis in the morning, which is probably the most listened to show on the American Family Radio Network. You know her as a legal voice in our country. She served in the first Trump administration as one of the legal counsels to the president. She has a B.A.

in technical journalism from Colorado State University and a jurist doctorate from Richmond School of Law. She's a journalist, a broadcaster, an attorney, a Christian leader, and just an all-around great American. And she is our guest on the program today. Jenna, welcome to the program, and congratulations for your work here at the NRB convention. Thank you so much for having me, Alex, and that was a very kind introduction. And you've been a very dear friend over the years, and I appreciate your voice for truth. Well, you know, truth is what sets us free, according to John 8.32. Amen. There's so much I want to ask you, and we're going to have a good time, folks.

Because, listen, if you care about morality, God and country, class is in session. And our adjunct professor today is Dr. Jenna Ellis. Very glad to have you. But before I get into some questions that I want to pose, give us a little bit of your story. How did God bring you to where you are in your journey? Oh, wow. How much time do we have?

All you want. The elevator speech part of that, I guess, is my life verse has always been Isaiah 6.8, Here I am, Lord, send me. And I had no idea how God would answer that prayer in ways that were good and in ways that were challenging. And I was homeschooled all the way through K through 12. And my parents took very seriously my education, not just in a traditional sense. But they both would tell you, if they were sitting in front of you right now, that as parents, they said, we will be faithful to the Lord in raising up our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord if they leave here, not just with an education or success on the world term, job, money, whatever, but being disciples of Christ. And they truly discipled me. And so, and my brothers.

And so that was the foundation for, when I went through law school, what ultimately became my ministry in teaching first principles and natural law and that God, our creator, is the one that endows us with our rights and our government is obligated to preserve and protect those rights if we're looking at the authority structure that God as the divine lawgiver has given. And so I took that message eventually nationally through a lot of different doors that the Lord opened. And one day I get a phone call from a 202 number that I recognized as D.C. I was still living in Colorado at the time, so I let it go to voicemail and said, you know, it's probably, you know, salesperson, whatever, Sunday afternoon.

Hi, Ms. Ellis. This is the White House operator. The President's reaching out to you. Could you please give us a call back at your earliest convenience? And I thought, they totally mean somebody else, but okay, I guess I better call back. Oh, we'll put you right through.

And Donald Trump, who is in office first term, gets on like, Jenna, how's it going? I see you on TV. You have this big, beautiful title.

Constitution law attorney. I love it. It's huge. That's good.

It's great. And then he started asking me questions. I'm thinking, this is the only opportunity I'll have to influence a sitting president, so I'm going to tell him exactly what I think.

And turns out, Donald Trump likes that. So he invited me to D.C. and when I walked into the Oval Office, he said, you work for me now? And I had the privilege and opportunity of working for him as the senior legal advisor to his campaign, and his reelection campaign, and then personal counsel to him. And it was a phenomenal opportunity to see the presidency up close and personal. Of course, God expanded my platform through that.

Sure, sure. And then after he left office, of course he's now reelected, but in the interim, I came on board with American Family Association, which was really, to me, a return to my first principles of first calling, because I want to teach the truth of the Lord in the institution of government, and how that touches and concerns the family and the church, and that has always been my passion. So to have this platform with AFA, to do policy with them, and then to be on air with them, this to me is everything that I had prayed years ago, that God took me through this wild adventure and then ultimately said, okay, now here you go, but you're now prepared as a disciple of Christ to hopefully speak truth daily.

And you know what's so exciting to hear your story is? I mean, when you think of ministry, maybe somebody thinks of a pulpit or a missionary, but you in the legal field are very much a minister for the Lord as a clergy pastoring a flock. Speak to us, if you would, about the call and the sacredness of vocation.

Absolutely. And ministry is not defined as only those people who are pastors or missionaries. We are all called to be ministers of the gospel.

That is clearly in Scripture. And our vocation should align with our passion for the Lord and the talents that he's given us, but we should do everything to the glory of God. And so wherever we are at and wherever God has placed us vocationally, we need to use that for his purpose. And I truly view my calling and being on air as a ministry.

It's not a career for me. It is something that daily I want to express the truth of the gospel and take advantage, as Ephesians 5 says, of every opportunity to speak truth because the days are evil. And that is the ministry that all of us are called to. Being a parent is a ministry. Being in civil government, being a public servant, that actually is a ministry. Romans 13, 1-7.

Absolutely. A good civil government is ordained by God. Yes, and bad civil government is evil and going outside the scope of his authority. So everything Trump is doing, for example, right now with getting rid of the deep state and the administrative state, there is a biblical principle to this. And I did an entire show recently on this and saying how when government is taking from you and is spending on things that are not only unconstitutional but actually unbiblical, then to wind that back, property ownership is a biblical principle, and yes, we pay our taxes. But when taxes go to things that are unbiblical, that's theft. That's taking our personal property. So everything that Trump is doing, even if he's not operating specifically with a knowledge out in the forefront and Elon Musk, who doesn't even claim to be a Christian, on the biblical principle, they know what they're doing is right.

And right is biblical. Indeed. We've got to take a brief break. Folks, if you're just tuning in, we're talking with attorney, broadcaster, journalist Jenna Ellis. When we come back, we're going to talk about some things about the Constitution that really every American ought to know but maybe doesn't. It's going to be a very educational half hour, so stay tuned. The Alex McFarland Show with our very special guest, Jenna Ellis, is back after this.

Fox News and CNN call Alex McFarland a religion and culture expert. Stay tuned for more of his teaching and commentary after this. Dinesh D'Souza. Dinesh is going to be talking about Trump's first 100 days, and his talk is entitled American Politics, Past, Present, and Future.

Join us for this unforgettable, life-changing evening of one of America's most astute thinkers and opinion makers. Dinesh D'Souza, May 4th, 7 p.m., the Greg Roles Legacy Theater. Visit GregRolesLegacyTheater.com slash tickets. That's Greg Roles, R-O-W-L-E-S. GregRolesLegacyTheater.com slash tickets. And I would like to see you May 4th to hear, in person, Dinesh D'Souza.

He's been called trusted, truthful, and timely. Welcome back to the Alex McFarland Show. Welcome back to the program from the National Religious Broadcasters Convention in Dallas, Texas.

Alex McFarland here with Jenna Ellis. A few years ago, she wrote a book called The Legal Basis for a Moral Constitution, a book I highly recommend. Folks, you remember that quote by John Wesley, those who read, lead. The legal basis for a moral constitution, a book I highly recommend.

You remember that quote by John Wesley, those who read, lead. And so I encourage you to get Jenna Ellis' book and to follow her work on the American Family Radio Network. By the way, Jenna, do you have a website, or where may people hear your daily radio show? Yeah, the best place to reach me outside of my own personal social media is at AFR.net for American Family Radio Network, AFR.net. And you can listen to either live through our app or the podcast replay of the show at AFR.net, and also my brand new AFR exclusive podcast called On Demand, where we get to do a deeper dive into issues and guests like Alex McFarland that all of our listeners want to hear from. Well, thank you very much.

Thank you very much. You know, in the campaign of 2024, endlessly ad infinitum, we heard people say that democracy is at risk. Democracy, democracy, democracy. And, you know, having taught political science for well over a decade, I cringe because you never hear the left use the term constitutional republic.

So I've got a few questions. First of all, if you would contrast democracy versus republic, what are the differences and why should I care? Yeah, we absolutely need to care because, as you said, we are a constitutional republic. We are not just a sheer democracy or will of the people.

So 51% do not rule. This is why we have state legislatures. This is why we have states.

This is why we have the federal government. This is why we have the Electoral College. It's not just the popular vote that elects a president.

It is through the Electoral College and delegates. And there's a reason for that so that the masses and all of us are not beholden to the sheer whim of the mob or the majority. So we have elements of democracy embedded into a constitutional republic that has a framework and contours that are guardrails for moral purposes. And this is why we need to, as our founders recognized, and John Jay, our first Supreme Court Chief Justice, so we need to select and prefer leaders who are Christians because they understand the design of government that is legitimate.

God ordained three spheres of government, the civil government, the church government, and the family government. And he gave specific limited powers to each of those institutions to protect the rights of their constituency. Parents need to protect the rights of their children. Fathers and mothers need to protect that right. And husbands need to protect the rights of their wives in the church.

The elders, the ecclesia, need to protect the rights of their congregation. Same in the civil government. And our founders recognized that limited specific powers are God's design. And so the Constitution provides that framework that are split, interestingly, into three branches. And also it's not just a horizontal structure on the federal level of legislative executive judiciary.

It's also on the vertical because you also have the federal government, the state government, and powers that are reserved to we the people. We the people mean something. The left would say that means democracy.

We the people means constituency. And it means that we have the power to direct a lot of our own lives and a lot of our own liberty. So the free exercise of religion, for example, means that the government on no level can compel me to speak or to believe against my will. That is a right that God gave me not just to believe but to exercise, to act, because faith scripturally is belief plus action. When the Apostle Paul talks about the fruit that will be shown and that faith without works is dead, he's not talking about salvation. He's talking about the fruit of living Christianly. It's not just belief.

It's that you will act Christianly. And our founders protected our right that is God-given to live our faith on a daily basis. Oh my goodness, this is so powerful. And you know, Jenna, when you look at the three branches of government, and like you say, not only horizontally but vertically, you know, federal, state, local, and then individual rights and responsibilities, I look at our structure of government and I just really think not only is it just in human terms a genius design, but I would say ordained and sanctioned by God. The electoral college that people like Hillary Clinton for 20 years has called for the abolition of the electoral college. Speak to us, if you would, about our government is so unique, has existed now for two and a half centuries. Doesn't that speak to just the supernatural origin of our government?

I don't mean to overstate the case, but American civil government is so unique, isn't it? It is, and that's exactly what my book dives deeper into, because you can't understand the Constitution without understanding the Declaration of Independence, because that is the worldview statement. When people ask me all the time, well, the Constitution doesn't mention God. And I say, well, because all it's doing is delegating the specific powers. I mean, are your wedding vows in your day-to-day responsibilities of who unloads the dishwasher in your marriage? Well, no, but the vows are the promise, the worldview of how you understand what marriage is all about, and where does that take place? In a church, because it's the church that God gave the sanctioning and the authority of marriage between one man and one woman to. And so when we look at the design for government, we go back to the U.S. Constitution, and America is exceptional, not because we have a Bill of Rights or because we protect free speech.

I mean, all sorts of banana repellents. You look at the Chinese Constitution, they specify more rights than ours does. That doesn't make them actually protecting liberty. What makes America exceptional and unique is that our founders specifically recognize truth. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Unalienable is a property law term that was Jefferson's fingerprint on the Declaration. He was fascinated with property law. And that term means that you cannot alienate those rights from yourself, because he was all about free alienability, a legal term of property. Because in Old England, you would have this inheritance of a state through heritage. You would come into your property, your real property, through heritage.

And it was very difficult to buy and sell in that sense. And so when he said that your rights are unalienable, it means they cannot be bought, sold, abridged at whim. They are so intrinsic to who we are as human beings made in the image of God. Can't legitimately be taken away. Absolutely.

And I can't even give them away even if I try. So when they say our rights are unalienable, it means we recognize God endows our rights. That was pre-political. That was years, a decade before the Constitution was ratified. That is the worldview statement.

That is what makes America exceptional. This is so powerful. This is powerful.

We've got to take a brief break. Folks, stay tuned. We've got another segment with our very special guest, Jenna Ellis on X, a.k.a. Twitter or social media.

Where may people find you? Yes, at RealJennaEllis on X or Facebook and Instagram at Jenna Ellis Media. Okay, folks, stay tuned. The Alex McFarland Show with Jenna Ellis as our guest will be back after this. Fox News and CNN call Alex McFarland a religion and culture expert. Stay tuned for more of his teaching through August 1st with J. Warner Wallace, a week of apologetics with myself and Jim Wallace.

Go to thecove.org, thecove.org, and I hope to see you next summer. Do you know prayer is the nerve that moves the muscle of God? Hi, Alex McFarland here encouraging you to download our free PDF of 31 Days of Prayer for Our Nation. Discover how consistent prayer can transform your heart and our nation. These are times of uncertainty, people need hope, and specific prayers get specific answers.

So go to alexmcfarland.com and download the free PDF of Prayer, and I challenge you to make this next 31 days a time of powerful prayer. He's been called trusted, truthful, and timely. Welcome back to The Alex McFarland Show. Welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here having a very robust conversation with Jenna Ellis.

Hey, before we resume our visit with attorney journalist broadcaster Jenna Ellis, alexmcfarland.com, why would I shamelessly self-promote and direct you to that website? Well, folks, we've got a lot going on, and I want you to please listen in. Our speaker series in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. We've rented a couple of theaters in Myrtle Beach. Listen to this.

The number one resort town in America, 17.2 million people from all 50 states visit Myrtle Beach, and we want you to be one of them, and I'll tell you why. May 4th, Dinesh D'Souza, my longtime friend. Dinesh is a great speaker.

We're going to have him speaking on America's political future. And then we've got Dr. Gary Chapman who wrote The Five Love Languages in June. And then we've got Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA. Yes, in person.

Charlie Kirk in August. Then we've got Lauren Greene in September, a roundtable about the health of America's churches. Later on we'll have Eric Metaxas, and hey, don't tell her it's a secret, but I'm going to invite Jenna Ellis to come be one of our keynote speakers, too.

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Well, back at NRB, you hear the background noise, a lot going on. But we're talking with Jenna Ellis. And first of all, Jenna, thanks for making time. Thank you. Any time for you, Alex. I love our conversations. Well, I do, too.

I really appreciate that. Because, you know, I'm not an attorney, obviously. But when I was in graduate school, I was working on a philosophy degree. And I discovered Aristotle's first principles. And I wrote a thesis on first principles and the existence of God.

Now, you have used the term first principles. Aristotle used those terms in what he would have called undeniable truth. That truth exists. And truth must exist. It's undeniable.

Because if you try to deny truth exists, it's a contradiction. Here's the truth. There is no truth.

Is that true? Exactly. It's inescapable that there is truth. Truth can be known. Truth can be expressed in words. Because even if you try to explain that words don't convey truth, you've got to use words. So first principles, Aristotle, two centuries before the birth of Christ, he used first principles to argue not only for truth and morals, but for God.

Now, forgive that long setup. In terms of citizenship and our beloved America, what do first principles mean? And why should average people care about learning such things? Well, when people ask me, why does truth matter, I always say, well, do you want the truthful response or a false one? And to your point, Alex, it's inescapable that truth exists and that we cannot escape the reality to which God presented us.

And C.S. Lewis speaks to this so eloquently in Mere Christianity. And when you talk about first principles, obviously Aristotle was not coming from a biblical worldview, but he was coming from a natural law premise.

And this is why natural law is so important. And when people say, well, Jenna, Jefferson wasn't the best Christian or the founders were deists and all these things. Well, you could look at my life and say there were times that, you know, Jenna, was that really that biblical? And I could say I am a sinner saved by the grace of God.

And hopefully you can look at my life and say that I am a Christian. But if people want to quibble about my theology or whatever, the point is natural law is outside of man and outside of our fallen nature. In the sense that it exists whether or not we acknowledge it.

I don't have to acknowledge that gravity exists. I am bound by it. And so first principles and natural law means that there is objective truth that we cannot change.

We have limited power. If Congress wanted to repeal the law of gravity, we would laugh because we know they don't have the authority to do that. And Congress or a state legislature or a court has no more authority to repeal the law of gravity than they do to redefine marriage, than they do to say a man can become a woman or to say that we're a democracy, not a constitutional republic, for example.

I mean, facts are also facts. But in terms of natural law, what the founders recognized, whether or not they were perfect Christians, what the founders recognized is that the law of nature is confined to our reality. And when we look at everything that the left is doing, that trying to redefine marriage, trying to have children outside of a man and a woman, which is impossible.

You have to have a man and a woman. When they are trying to redefine all of these things, they are going against nature itself. It is all unnatural. They're fighting reality.

Yes. And so what matters in terms of first principles is simply a recognition of objective truth and objective reality. And once you recognize and acknowledge reality, you are confined to believing that there is a God who imposed his will on the reality to which we are presented.

And then the next question, of course, is who is he and what does he expect from me? Those are the questions that the left doesn't want to answer. Folks, if you're just tuning in, the voice you're hearing is that of Jenna Ellis. And I cannot overstate how I urge everybody to read her book, The Legal Basis for a Moral Constitution. This is a passion topic of mine. And I think one of the reasons that I learned so much listening to you is that you affirm and communicate things that I began to learn instinctively 30 years ago.

And all of my research has validated this. So here's a question. Do you have hope, Jenna, that many of the legal decisions, like the Obergefell decision in 2015 about gay marriage, besides being against natural law, I believe it's unconstitutional. And I believe it undermines the perpetuity of our republic. Some of these decisions that have been just very anti-truth, do you have any hope that they'll be rescinded? Do you have any hope that, I know people can get saved, we can be Christians, we can evangelize people. But in terms of the preservation of our constitutional republic, do you have hope that the ship can be righted?

I do. And I think I said that, but I said that with more faith in that after Roe vs. Wade was overturned. Because that was something that was so ingrained into our culture that was wrongly decided at its inception. There is no constitutionally protected right for abortion. Healthcare, as an entire subject matter, is not given to the federal government.

And so, jurisdictionally, it's inappropriate. Will Obamacare be rescinded? Hopefully, and I hope that Trump is working on that. But all of that to say is I think we are righting the ship when we understand the impact that these decisions have. You mentioned Obergefell. One of the natural consequences of this, of course, is the redefinition of what it means to be a parent and have parental rights. What it means to have rights and dignity as a child. We're not even talking about an unborn child, but even the children that are born, they have rights. That this is not just up to parents and the urges of adults and the desires of adults and the whims that can commoditize children.

We're having these conversations because of the wrongly decided opinions. And when I went to law school and was confronted with this really odd view that even future Christian lawyers are taught, that yes, there's the Constitution, but really you have to argue within the context of whatever the Supreme Court's opinions have said. That's how they teach future lawyers.

Really? And that was what spurred me on to write my book because I came from a great heritage of discipleship from my parents, of Mike Ferris, who's the general counsel of the N.R.B. He taught a constitutional law class for homeschooled students that I took. And I'm going, no, natural law prevails.

What are you guys talking about? And so I confronted, respectfully, I confronted my constitutional law professor in law school and I said, well, hold on. How can I then go into a courtroom and advocate for a Christian world? We use a Christian as well in then 2011 with what you're saying is a framework. And he just said, well, you can't.

And I said, well, I don't buy that. And so I set out to say, well, wait a minute, we have to go back to first principles. And so I think the answer is not just arguing legally or arguing at the Supreme Court or legislative wins or all these things. It starts first with a knowledge of Christ.

We have to understand who God is, what he requires of us. Then we say, what does our constitutional republic, what is it designed to do? The design, like my dad who designed satellites, they're mission oriented for a purpose.

He designs them specifically for a mission, for a specific purpose. Our constitution is designed specifically to protect and preserve the rights that come from our creator. So we have the tools.

We're just not using them. And I meet so many very passionate patriots around the country. But then I ask that I start asking the questions. They don't have an intimate knowledge of our constitution, of first principles, of where we came from.

That is the start. You can't have a passion for God without a knowledge of God. The Bible says grow in the grace and knowledge of the truth and of our Savior. If we are truly passionate about America, we have to have a knowledge of where we came from and who our divine authority is. And what is truly the structure of our unique exceptional government and culture.

Yes, amen. We're a little bit over time, but one final question. Give us a homework assignment. Class is about to dismiss.

You are our instructor. What is the homework assignment as we conclude? Well, go and actually read the Constitution for yourself. And I would encourage you to also read the Declaration first. Read the Federalist Papers. They were written by three lawyers who were promoting the ratification of the Constitution in its original form. They give you the rationale. Why are we a Federalist society?

Why was that the best structure of government? And then go actually read the five pages of the Constitution. It's not that hard.

It's not that complicated. Know what powers are given to the legislature. In Article I, Section 8, it's a limited subject matter.

You know what's not in there? Education. Healthcare. I mean, so many things that the federal government- The National Endowment for the Arts.

Yeah, is spending money on. They can't. That is what is unconstitutional.

It's not just what I prefer or you prefer. It's what can the government do? That's the constitutional question. What should the government do is the policy question. We debate policy.

You can't debate can or cannot. So go read our original founding documents if you'd like a guide. I humbly suggest my book, The Legal Basis for a Moral Constitution. It provides that step-by-step guide of exactly where we came from and why and how you can better advocate for America. The voice you're listening to, the wisdom from which you are learning is that of Jenna Ellis. She's been our guest on the program today.

We're almost out of time. Alex McFarland here, challenging you to stand strong, be bold, speak truth, and remember 1 Corinthians 15, 58, that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. Alex McFarland Ministries are made possible through the prayers and financial support of partners like you. For over 20 years, this ministry has been bringing individuals into a personal relationship with Christ and has been equipping people to stand strong for truth. Learn more and donate securely online at alexmcfarland.com. You may also reach us by calling 1-877-YES-GOD and the number 1. That's 1-877-YES-GOD1. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you again on the next edition of the Alex McFarland Show.