with Dr. Wayne Grudem

Best-selling author, speaker, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland.

Best-selling author and apologist, Dylan Burrows. Together, bringing you truth. For a new generation, this is TNG Radio. How important is doctrine?

We hear that word doctrine, and oftentimes I think people assume it's divisive, and it's something that maybe only preachers or professors or theologians need to care about. But on today's edition of the program, we're going to talk about doctrine, biblical truth, why it matters, what it is, and we're very privileged to have a special guest that you'll meet in just a moment. But this is Alex McFarland, and with me is Dylan Burrows, and we welcome you to today's edition of Truth for a New Generation Radio. Dylan, it's good to be with you, my friend.

Great to be with you, and I'm excited about our guest today. We have Dr. Wayne Grudem, research professor of theology and biblical studies at Phoenix Seminary, a graduate of Harvard Westminster Seminary, and Cambridge. This is a guy that you may know from your Bible. He was the general editor for the ESV Study Bible.

He's been involved in numerous works, including his well-known systematic theology used in seminaries and colleges around the country. So we're excited to be with you today, Dr. Grudem. Thank you for being with us. Thank you, Dylan.

Good to be with you. Well, Dr. Grudem, I just want to say I really, really do appreciate your time, because you're a prolific author, you're an educator. Most of all, though, you're a servant of the Lord and a great emissary for the gospel. And like Dylan said, no doubt people everywhere recognize your name. Before we get into a couple of topics that I want to hone in on, just give us a little bit of your background and your journey, how the Lord brought you to all the great things it is that you do.

Well, I'm not sure that they're great, I'm just trying to do the next thing that comes in front of me. But I grew up in a Christian home in Wisconsin, northern Wisconsin, as a child. I was interested in student government and eventually in politics, and thought I was going to go to law school after college and become a lawyer and a politician. But the Lord had other purposes, and under the preaching of Harold Ockengie at Park Street Church in Boston, when I was in college, I sensed more and more of the Lord calling me to go to seminary and become a pastor. But after I got halfway through seminary, I enjoyed the studies so much, studying the Bible in depth, and with the academic tools of Greek and Hebrew available to me, that I went for a PhD after that in New Testament studies.

So thanks for asking, Alex. I think that I'm where the Lord wants me to be, and I enjoy the research and writing, I enjoy teaching in the classroom and teaching seminary students some combination of teaching and writing, and I enjoy trying to search out what the Bible says and make it clear so people can understand it. What was your first published work? Probably my doctoral dissertation on the gift of prophecy in 1 Corinthians. That was with an academic publisher, and then that was popularized by Crossway Books, called The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today, and then a commentary on 1 Peter in the Tyndale New Testament Commentary Series. Then Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which John Piper and I co-edited, and then Systematic Theology in 1994, that came out.

Let me ask you this, and I'm glad you mentioned Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, because I want to circle back to that in just a moment. But the theological landscape of 2017, there was a lot in the news in the last, I don't know, two weeks, about what does evangelical mean? And so, let's talk about that word, the evangelical theological society. What is an evangelical, though? My own working definition is someone who believes that the Bible is the word of God, in the sense that these are God's words, not merely human words, and believes that a personal decision to trust in Christ as one's Savior and Lord is necessary for becoming a Christian, becoming justified before God, and being born again.

And does an evangelical carry with it also the implication of being involved, being salt and light in the culture? It's not just that we'll go to heaven when we die, but we'll be a voice for Christ here as long as we live in this world. Well, if we believe that Jesus is our Savior and Lord, and if we believe that the Bible is God's word, then we need to live in obedience to all of it. And that includes what Ephesians 2 10 says, walking in and doing good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. So yes, we should seek to influence society in ways that reflect the will and purposes of God. I'm working on another book, Alex, which I hope comes out in June now with Crossway, called Christian Ethics, and it will deal with a lot of those questions of involvement in society. So maybe we can talk about that in a few months.

Well, I hope so. Before we got into the definition of evangelical, you mentioned biblical manhood and womanhood. I remember when I was a grad student at Liberty University, and I first began to know of your name, we were reading the Danvers statement. I want to talk about what that is, and also complementarianism, because certainly in our lifetime, there's been a lot of confusion about gender and about biblically the roles of men and women.

So let's talk about that for a little bit. How did you get into, really, and you've done it well, defining and stating what the Bible says about gender and men and women? When I was in theological seminary, and then when I was in doctoral work in the New Testament, which those years would have been 70 to 73 in seminary and 73 to 76 in PhD work, I was increasingly troubled by a number of Christian books and journal articles that were saying there is no unique leadership role for men in marriage or in the Church. It was feminism in the culture saying no differences between men and women and how they're intended to relate to each other, and that was coming into the Church in the form of evangelical feminism or egalitarianism.

To me, and a number of others, that this is disobeying God's word, which treats men and women equally in terms of equal value and honor and dignity and importance before God, but also clearly teaches that in marriage there is a leadership role for husbands that wives don't have, and a leadership role for men in the Church in some governing and teaching roles, elder and pastor, for instance. So that was being challenged, and I and some others—John Piper, my friend, and some others—began to write about this, and we published this book called Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, hoping to affirm the dignity of men and women, equal in value before God, but also our differences which God has created and which are very good. Well, thank you. That's so well said, Dr. Grudemann. We appreciate your discussion.

It's so fascinating. We're going to come back in just a moment and talk more about your new book that you've worked on, Theistic Evolution, a critique of the biblical evidence regarding this very important area of our Christian faith. Stick with us.

We'll be right back. Attention all Christians who believe that America needs a spiritual revival, an awakening, a message of the gospel for our times. This is Alex McFarland encouraging you to attend the 2018 edition of Truth for a New Generation, the Conference on Apologetics, Worldview, and Evidence for the Christian Faith, Greensboro, North Carolina, March 23 and 24.

Hear an amazing lineup that includes Josh McDowell, apologists J. Warner Wallace, Lauren Green and Todd Starnes, both from Fox News, attorney Abe Hamilton III of the American Family Association, music by the bands and orchestra from North Greenville University, and much, much more. Sessions for all ages, equipping you to share your faith confidently in any situation. Visit truthforanewgeneration.com, that's truthforanewgeneration.com, TNG 2018, to save a nation, March 23 and 24, brought to you by North Greenville University, where Christ makes the difference. First Peter 3.15 tells us to be ready always to give an answer for the hope we have.

We're instructed to be prepared to defend our faith. This is Alex McFarland for the Life Answers Teams, students we train at North Greenville University, a leading Christian college in South Carolina. The Life Answers Teams are made up of students who will inspire and equip your congregation. These apologetics teams we train speak in churches to youth groups and train Christians of all ages to address key issues of our times from a biblical perspective. Like is there a God? Is the Bible true?

What about gender and moral issues? Call me at 864-977-2008 and we will arrange for the Life Answers Team to come to your church and give a presentation that will benefit your people for years to come. 864-977-2008 and always be ready. There is no other that can compare to you. You are the one alone in greatness. The one who never changes.

Jesus, the one true God. Welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here with Dylan Burrows and our very special guest, Dr. Wayne Grudem. Before we resume our conversation with Dr. Grudem, I do want to remind everybody that coming up is our apologetics conference, Truth for a New Generation. We're coming back to Greensboro, North Carolina. Some turf for me.

Haven't done an event there in a few years, but Truth for a New Generation is going to be March 23-24 and we're going to be in the Greensboro area. Now folks, listen to this. A lot of great names I could mention. Jay Warner Wallace, he's an apologist.

You've probably seen him on television. We've got Abe Hamilton III from the American Family Association. Todd Starnes from Fox News and Lauren Green, who's the full-time religion correspondent for Fox News. Quite an apologist in her own right. She wrote a book called Lighthouse Faith, where among other things, Lauren Green makes an argument for the existence of God based on music theory. She says in a non-theistic world, we really wouldn't have music as it exists, and that's pretty fascinating. But Josh McDowell, he's a great friend of this ministry and a great speaker, and so I want to encourage you.

It's for all ages. Go to the website truthforanewgeneration.com, register, you can learn how your church can be involved, and it's a great thing for all ages, but especially for young people, because academia, unless your child goes to a solidly Christian university after high school, they're probably going to be faced with some rather chronic challenges to the Christian faith. So the Truth for a New Generation Conference will be the thing to equip and empower and inform and inspire, and we hope to see you there.

And Dr. Grudem, I again want to thank you for taking time to be with us. I want to talk a little bit about a word you mentioned in the first segment, the word egalitarianism. We've really seen that on so many levels of society, not only a theological egalitarianism, the denial that there are any differences between men and women, but culturally, I mean, there's been almost this economic egalitarianism that all outcomes have to be the same, and it's almost like we're living in a time of enforced egalitarianism. Attempts to enforce it anyway.

Exactly. As a scholar and Christian, how concerned are you about this, and what can the Church do to speak truth into a culture that is really often ignorant of it? Well the question again boils down to what does the Bible teach as the Word of God, what does it teach us, and then are we going to be obedient to it? And with regard to men and women, as I mentioned, the Bible's clearly emphatic that we are equal in God's sight, equal in value, but there are different roles in marriage and in the Church. I don't think the Bible teaches that the goal of life should be everybody be the same or everyone be equal in possessions or stewardship responsibilities or opportunities. God has made us all different. Even in the angelic world, there are angels and archangels, and in the age to come, Jesus teaches that there will be degrees of responsibility that God assigns, saying to one person, you will have authority over five cities, and to another, you will have authority over ten cities.

There are differing responsibilities that are given to people, and what we would call differing stewardships. And so, even in the economic sphere today, I don't think God's purpose for us is that we all be equal, but that we should do our best work at whatever task God calls us to. Giving an exclusivistic message in a culture is not always easy, is it? No, but I think it helps, Alex, if we understand that if people do not believe that there is any teaching from God, any words from God that he has given to guide us, then all we have is a multitude of human opinions, and who's to say that my opinion is better than yours or yours is better than mine?

But Christians are distinct in this, and we believe that the Bible is God's Word, and it's different from every other book in the world, and these are God's very words to us, and he's taught us about himself and about the way of salvation, he's taught us how to live, and those words in Scripture have authority that's far above every other human opinion or human viewpoint. Dr. Grudem, you are one of the contributors, one of the editors to a book that really excites me. It was on my desk when I got back to North Greenville University after Christmas break, edited by J.P. Moreland.

He was at Liberty when I was a grad student there. Stephen Meyer, who is a colleague, we've done work through folks on the family together. Christopher Shaw, Ann Gauger, and yourself, Theistic Evolution, a Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Critique. Now this is a tome, I commend you, 900, wow, 1007 pages, cross-way books, that's a whopper.

Dr. Grudem, what is this book about, and what prompted you all to create it? Well we, several of us became increasingly troubled about the fact that there were Christians in the United Kingdom and in the United States saying that you can accept the theory of evolution, Darwinian theory of evolution in its modern form, you can believe that all life came about by random mutation and natural selection over a long period of time, and still believe the Bible. And people were saying that, but when you actually ask them what they mean by still believing the Bible, they have to throw out the first three chapters of Genesis as being historical narrative, and they have to say it's poetry and allegory and doesn't tell us facts about what really happened, about how life came into being, and so they're basically denying what the Bible says about creation. Well if Theistic Evolution is true, what scriptural dominoes fall?

So that's a good way to say it, what dominoes fall. What we have is people saying evolution is so established as a scientific truth that we have to believe it, and then whatever in the Bible contradicts that, we'll reinterpret and reinterpret until its meaning is totally changed. And that was why J.P. Moreland, Stephen Meyer and others and I decided we had to put together a collection of essays, and this book, Theistic Evolution, has 33 chapters by 24 authors, 18 science chapters, 9 philosophy chapters, 6 Bible and theology chapters, all saying that this is an unacceptable theory. When people hear the phrase Theistic Evolution, Alex and Dylan, they might at first wonder what is meant by that, but it's just the idea that you can believe in evolution, and then you put the word Theistic in front of it, that is, believe in evolution, and say that somehow God used this process to create things. As reviews have said, this volume offers the most comprehensive scientific and Christian critique of Theistic Evolution yet produced, and we look forward to hearing more in just a moment.

Stay with us. If you're a Christian parent, you of course want to instill a biblical view of life in the hearts of your children. If you're a pastor, you want to offer ministry that draws young families to your church. This is Alex McFarland encouraging you to check out my new book and video curriculum, The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask About Christianity. Why do bad things happen? I interviewed hundreds of children, ages 5 to 12, and we address actual questions from actual children, the spiritual issues that are on the minds of your kids.

Did Jesus ever sin? The book and video lessons are great for groups of any size and was produced with the goal of equipping kids to stand strong for Christ in any situation. The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask, the book, study guide, and video series. You'll find it at AFASTORE.NET. That's AFASTORE.NET. Attention all Christians who would like to become more effective in presenting and defending their beliefs. This is Alex McFarland, and I urge you to attend the 2018 edition of Truth for a New Generation, the conference on apologetics, worldview, and evidence for the Christian faith.

TNG is coming to Greensboro, North Carolina, March 23 and 24. Hear an amazing lineup, including Josh McDowell, apologist J. Warner Wallace, Lauren Greene, and Todd Starnes, both from Fox News, and much, much more. This is Abraham Hamilton III of the American Family Association. We're in a battle for the future of our nation, and I want to see you at Truth for a New Generation as we pray and get equipped to defend the faith, asking God to save our nation. Don't miss Truth for a New Generation, March 23 and 24, Greensboro, North Carolina. You may register at truthforanewgeneration.com.

That's truth, F-O-R, truthforanewgeneration.com. Welcome back to TNG Radio. Alex McFarland here with my co-host Dylan Burrows.

What an honor. And friends, this is really, really a special edition of the program to be talking with theologian, scholar, Christian leader Wayne Grudem. And Dr. Grudem's website is WayneGrudem.com, WayneGrudem.com.

His last name is spelled G-R-U-D-E-M. I would encourage you to go to your local bookstore or go online. Just Google his name. You need his books. And I want to say it's a joy, Dr. Grudem, every now and then, not only as a teacher but speaker. Sometimes I recommend this book by an author, but maybe not that book. Your name is one that I can heartily recommend everything this man has written.

Go to his website WayneGrudem.com. And again, we want to thank you for taking time to be with us on the program. We're talking about your work, Crossway Books, along with J.P. Moreland, Stephen Meyer and others, Theistic Evolution, a Critique. Dr. Grudem, let me throw this question out there. Has Darwinian evolution and really the worldview that, you know, things arose, life arose, and creation happened without the need of a supernatural Creator, has this in 2,000 years of Christendom been just about the biggest threat the gospel has ever faced? Well, it really is one of the biggest, Alex, because it's a substitute religion for many, many people in our society, and sadly for many children going through our school systems, and they're taught that evolution is the answer to the question of how did we get here. You don't any longer have to think that God created you and you're accountable to Him. It was just matter randomly bouncing around, and by chance and mutation, living things came into being and mutated, and behold, here we are.

So people are no longer thinking they have a God to whom they're accountable, and that really erodes the moral fabric of a society because people don't have any sense of accountability at the final judgment. And also, it makes it more difficult for evangelism because people don't have this instinctive sense that living things are so amazing there must be a God who created everything. But then, when I talk to Christians who say, I can believe in evolution and still believe the Bible, well, what do you mean by evolution? Well, they say, maybe God created matter at the beginning, but after that He didn't make any change in the behavior of matter until matter just evolved by itself.

Maybe God sustaining it with its properties, but it just evolved without any intervention from God until all living things came about, and we as humans have descended from earlier ape-like creatures because of random mutation and natural selection. And then, well, what about Adam and Eve? Well, we can't believe that everybody has descended from a one man one woman because genetic studies today show us that there must have been at least 10,000 early human beings that the human race has descended from. Well, doesn't the Bible talk about Adam and Eve? Well, they'll say, out of those 10,000 people, God chose one man and called him Adam and chose another woman and chose a woman and called her Eve and said, now you two are representatives of the human race.

But what happens then is you give up a lot. It means that Adam and Eve weren't the first human beings. It means they had Adam and Eve had human parents.

They weren't created without parents, as the Bible says. It means that God didn't create Adam out of dust from the ground, but Adam was born from human parents. It means that God didn't create Eve from Adam's rib, but Eve had human parents. And interestingly, it means that Adam and Eve were never sinless human beings, but they had a sinful nature, a human nature from the time they were born. It means that Adam and Eve didn't commit the first human sins. It means that human death didn't begin as a result of Adam's sin, because human beings were always subject to death, even those human beings that were living before Adam and Eve. It means that we haven't all descended from Adam and Eve, because many people have descended from others of those 10,000 people who were on the earth when God chose one Adam and one Eve. Talk to us about the importance of the one the Bible calls the second Adam. Yes, which is Jesus Christ. In Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, Paul makes an extended argument showing that there's a really important parallel between Adam and Christ. Adam as the first head and representative of the human race, and then Christ as the second Adam, or the one who succeeds where Adam failed in beginning a new humanity as a group of people redeemed by him. And if we deny that sin came into the world through Adam and everybody has descended from Adam, then we begin to wonder about the argument of Paul about the unity of the human race represented by Adam, and then the parallel with the unity of the redeemed who are represented by Christ doesn't really work. And so evolution undermines the doctrine of the atonement, and in the same way there's a connection between Adam and Christ and the resurrection, as by man came death, by man has come also the resurrection of the dead, so the doctrine of the resurrection is called into question the truthfulness of the Bible. The overwhelming evidence for God's existence in nature and evidence for moral accountability to God. I mean, one after another these doctrines begin to be impacted. Once you give up the foundational chapters of Genesis 1-3 and just say they're poetry and allegory, they're not historically true.

Dr. Grudem, we're just about out of time. Again, folks, the book Theistic Evolution, this is a great, great resource to help you defend the faith. Give us the verse or what part of God's Word especially put that fire in your heart to be a champion for truth as you've been. Is there a verse that especially is meaningful to you? Well, one that I've come back to again and again is in Acts 20, 26, and 27, where Paul says to the elders of the church at Ephesus, I'm innocent of the blood of all of you because I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

That's Acts 20, 27. And from the time I was in seminary, at least, I thought that God had given me a responsibility not to shrink back from anything that His Word teaches, but to teach everything that His Word says faithfully. Believe it all and say that we're accountable for obeying it all. And I want to stand before him on the last day and say, I proclaimed the whole counsel of God and didn't step back. I just wanted popularity. I wanted to be faithful to the Lord in what I taught and be faithful to His entire Word.

Well, it certainly appears you're doing that. I want to thank you so much, not only for your time on this program today, but for your life's work, which is an inspiration to us all. Yes, and it's very well said. We want to proclaim the whole counsel of God's Word. And I believe, like Dr. Grudem has shared, this is a challenge for all of us to stand firm in what we believe and to stay faithful to God's Word that He's given us to live out today. Truth for a New Generation, in association with Alex McFarland Evangelistic Ministries, exists to equip Christians with a biblical worldview through conferences and camps.

For information about upcoming events, visit truthforanewgeneration.com, or give us a call at 877-YES-GOD-1. That's 877-YES-GOD and the number 1. P&G Radio is made possible by the friends of Alex McFarland Evangelistic Ministries, P.O. Box 485, Pleasant Garden, North Carolina, 27313. That's P.O. Box 485, Pleasant Garden, North Carolina, 27313. Or give online at alexmcfarland.com or truthforanewgeneration.com. Thanks for listening, and join us again next time as we bring you more truth for a new generation on TNG Radio.